Classic "D" Shape....How Much Performance Do You Give Up?

Nala · May 07, 2007, 01:32:00 AM

Hey all,

I am curious about the design of longbows and how it affects performance.
For those that shoot the Classic "D" shape bows, do you feel like you are giving up arrow speed and performance because of your choice in bows? Other than nostalgia, what advantages does the D Shape give you over the R/D bows? If someone liked the looks of the D Shape bow and wanted the performance of the R/D bows, can they get it or at least get close to it? Is such a bow made? I see pictures of some of these D Shaped bows that have a slight R/D when they are unstrung. Does that slight D/R bring the 2 designs closer to each other performance wise?

Sorry for all the questions...I am just trying to get all this straight before I start shopping for my longbow this summer. I appreciate your help and patience.

Thanks everyone.

Nala

mike g · May 07, 2007, 07:58:00 AM

I shoot a Howard Hill.
And I don't think I'm giving up a thing.
Theres more to performance than SPEED....
Stability and forgivness are a couple of them....
And they classic and very cool....

R H Clark · May 07, 2007, 09:20:00 AM

Nala, check out the Border Griffon GL. I've never handled or shot one but it got very good numbers on Pete Ward's site.

longbowman · May 07, 2007, 09:23:00 AM

I know there's guys like Adcock that talk about the speed of the RD bows but I've shot a bunch of them and I've never seen a bow shoot 800+ grain arrows as fast as the Hill bows. I'm sure the Adcock bows are fantastic as a number of people on this site attest to regularly. I'm not saying anything negative at all about different style of bows but the Hill bows with heavy arrows are just plain impressive. Yes, they have a kick due to their "D" design but it's waht you get used to shooting.

John Havard · May 07, 2007, 09:44:00 AM

http://acsbows.com/bowperformance.html

Crash · May 07, 2007, 10:06:00 AM

You must determine for yourself what you are most interested in for a bow. The straighter the limbs on a bow, the less speed you will have. You won't be giving up that much speed though. There are several bows made that have a "D" profile when strung that have reflex/deflex that would perform better than say a Hill bow.

Str8Shooter · May 07, 2007, 10:17:00 AM

I've got a hill style longbow with a little bit of backset in the limbs and one layer of carbon that will race with most any bow. It pulls 63 at 28.5" and pushes a 540 gr. arrow in the 190 range. I had two others of the same maker and wish I'd never sold them. Awesome shooters and super quiet.

That said if you want a D shaped bow with performance I'd look at a Howard Hill with carbon in the limb. I've heard really good things about them.

Chris

vermonster13 · May 07, 2007, 10:25:00 AM

The Black Swan Classic is a D shaped bow that will give you as much performance as just about any Hybrid style bow out there. It is smooth as butter and will shoot 9gp# at 200+. No hand shock and is a shooter.

flatlander37 · May 07, 2007, 10:41:00 AM

At what draw length with 9 gpp are you geting 200+ fps vermonster? I have a fairly short draw and the fastest I have ever shot is 182, with a Black Widow recurve that is. Had a chance to buy one of the swan's awhile back and am wondering if it was a mistake to pass it up now.

vermonster13 · May 07, 2007, 10:54:00 AM

At 28" AMO

Woodduck · May 07, 2007, 10:58:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
The Black Swan Classic is...smooth as butter and will shoot 9gp# at 200+. No hand shock and is a shooter.

Wow, 200+ , I had no idea a "D" bow was doing that. I pull 29", so 10 gp# should satisfy me.

vermonster13 · May 07, 2007, 11:02:00 AM

The Classic is just a little slower than the Hybrid and Recurve Arvid makes. 5-8fps is the difference, the man knows how to get the most out of carbon and actually has his own made for him. If you don't mind a black bow these are the way to go. Some guys just can't get past the no wood veneers same as with the A&H bows, I like both very much.

Walt Francis · May 07, 2007, 11:19:00 AM

Take a look at the Roberson Overdrive, it has the R/D design when unstrung, but the classic look when strung, only shorter.

Jason Jelinek · May 07, 2007, 12:02:00 PM

From what I've gathered (my own research and others) If you make the Hill style bow long (like 71-72" long), put in a lot of limb taper (like 0.010" total per " or more), a longer riser (18-20") and put in some reflex (like 1-1.5") you'll get the efficiency (75%+) and performance of the mild r/d bows and be able to draw 29" without stacking. The increased limb taper requires the longer length to prevent the bow from stacking. If you don't mind the length this is a nice bow to look at and shoot.

I know O.L. has put the ACS in a Hill style results with nice performance gains. I want to try that myself but don't have the time right now.

Jason

Curveman · May 07, 2007, 12:12:00 PM

The Border Griffin GL has the carbon but you can get the wood veneers over it (and bamboo) as options. (You will lose a minute amount speed with the wood veneers). I just ordered one in fact!

It's mildly reflexed/deflexed so you still get that "D" shape when strung. I like longbows to look like longbows but having still picked up a LITTLE something performance wise from a more modern design.

I admire the "purity" for lack of a better word, of those entering traditonal classes with Hill style bows, however. We all might have different ideas of where that line of "no longer really a longbow" is crossed. Not a big deal though, just a preference.

MikeC · May 07, 2007, 12:43:00 PM

From what I have researched and been told by bowyers, if the carbon layer is not directly on the back of the bow, and it must be the last layer, nothing over it, your wasting money. To get the true advantages of the carbon in a bow it must be the outer most layer on the back.

Carbon Caster · May 07, 2007, 12:48:00 PM

Mike,

Don't tell that to Sid at Border. I have shot that Griffon GL that Pete did a review on, and it has "GASP" a wood veneer over the carbon on back and belly. LOL!!!!

As a matter of fact, I might just get Bear blood on those veneers this week. Sid has a definite winner with that Griffon GL. One of the best overall bows I have ever shot.

MikeC · May 07, 2007, 12:56:00 PM

CC...With Sid's bow I'll bet the design comes into play and not the carbon in the core with regards to speed.

Black Swan and ACS know where to place it and so do the folks that make ILF limbs for olympic competition. It's not an easy process to do it right but they figured it out.

James Wrenn · May 07, 2007, 01:06:00 PM

You loose a bit of performance but most times you get a very quiet bow.If you can get one with tiny tips to keep the mass down handshock can be kept down as well.

BTW..I am not biting on the HH heavy arrow theory.The best performing bow is going to be the one that shoots the heavy arrow fastest just like it does the lighter arrow.That includes recurves as well as longbows. jmo

Carbon Caster · May 07, 2007, 01:14:00 PM

Mike,

Sid's carbon isn't in the core and there is NO glass over the wood veneer. He said he only loses a VERY tiny bit of performance and seems to gain some quietness as James says as well as LOTS OF PRETTY factor.

I am with James on the heavy arrow theory as well.