Question:  Is there any real difference between 11/32 and 23/64 shafts?  I see there is a price difference.

Other than 23/64 being @$1 per shaft less.

Well, because 23/64 is larger diameter, that means it can be had in heavier physical and spine weights.  The drawback is the larger diameter.  A  lip/change to larger diameter at the base of most 11/32 points where they meet the wood and the larger diameter shaft can cause a little more drag as it penetrates, which may or may not be enough to notice.  And, because of the increased diameter, the center of the shaft sits a tad farther from the center of the bow, sometimes requiring a little more tuning finesse.  And, to some, they just look and feel like logs compared to a smaller diameter shaft. 

Yeah, I usually bevel the front end behind the point/broadhead.  1/64" can be huge.

After many decades of working on and using all manner of woodies with regards to wood type, diameter, weights, tapers, footings, inserts, FOC, and assorted other parameters of the wood itself, me and my bows are most happiest with 11/32" shafts, no tapers, footed self nocks and a tapered end for glue-ons.  Oh yeah, feather fletchings only.  I also try not to get anal about arrows, woodies in particular.  They are the essence of traditional archery, and even if my bows are made with some manner of "glass" at least the arras are wood 'n' feathers 'n' steel,  The key is in making and keeping them straight, and shooting only those that are consistently accurate with any particular bow.  The rest are firewood, literally.  I don't burn up many.  Enjoy the tradition.

My bows and I like a tail taper, Please don't hate me! 

I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials.  I was always under the impression that spine was spine.  Please educate me.

Quote from: Wudstix on November 15, 2023, 09:53:05 PM
I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials.  I was always under the impression that spine was spine.  Please educate me.

There's "static spine" (spine meter) and "dynamic spine" (the real world of how a specific bow addresses any arrow spine).  For me, it all starts and ends with the spine meter, based on raw shaft wood species and weight.  These days, with my light holding weight bows of 40-45lbs, and lesser arrow length of 28", I try for lightweight raw shafts and points of 125-145 grains and a final arrow weight of 500 grains, +/- 5%.  A heavier nock end might usually increase arrow spine, too.  Lotsa variables. The proof is in the pudding (arrow flight).   

"I heard that more dense arrow materials act weaker in spine than less dense materials."  That's true.   If you take a dense shaft of a given spine and compare it to a less dense shaft of the same spine, the denser shaft will be physically heavier.  The static spine, as measured on a spine tester is the same, but the heavier shaft will act weaker when shot because it takes more force to get the heavier arrow moving.  Or stated another way, you need a little more static spine on a denser arrow to have it behave dynamically the same as a lighter arrow.

So if I normally shot 70-75 or 75-80 with tapered POC, I would shot 80-85 with Douglas Fir?

Is there any method to measure dynamic spine?

Quote from: Wudstix on November 17, 2023, 10:06:05 PM
Is there any method to measure dynamic spine?

Measuring it dynamically is the most fun..just have to catch em with a bale..

In my experience 23/64 and 11/32 diameter shafts of the same spine are interchangeable. I get the same results when bare shafting them and paper tuning them. I use Stu's dynamic spine chart. The chart will adjust the estimated dynamic spine based on the shaft diameter you enter as a fraction (.344 for 11/32" and .359 for 23/64"). I find this to be fairly reliable as a good starting point. Surewood Shafts has a link to the spreadsheet if you don't already have one. Here's the link https://heilakka.com/stumiller/. One note, you need the average weight of each completed dozen. This can have an impact on dynamic spine with woodies often having forty or fifty grains of difference in the same spine groups.

So would tapered shafts be lower spine Dynamically?  Don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, what I shoot right now seems to work fine.  I might just get a dozen tapered DF and see what happens.

I've spoken to Carson of Surewood Shafts. He told me that the back taper doesn't change the spine. Whatever spine you shoot in 11/32" should be the same in 23/64". I know that arrow makers sometimes have to run 23/64" to get heavier spines. You should be fine ordering what spine  you normally shoot.

If I bump up head weight I may bump up spine weight one group and stay with the taper.

A test spine range kit of shafts might be the best way to figure out what yer bow likes best.

I'll talk to Carson and see if a tapered set of Hunter can be arranged, that shouldn't be too difficult. 

Carson e-mailed me concerning the difference in spine weight required from POC to DF.  He said the majority of folks found little or no difference, but a few did find they needed more spine with DF.  He was not sure what caused this, perhaps going from lightest weight POC to heaviest weight DF was the reason.  I try a test set to see what the difference is.

I haven't found any difference between the two. I shoot both POC and Douglas Fir in 23/64". The DF is typically heavier than POC shafts, and thus has a weaker dynamic spine when you start tuning it. I usually work all of that out in the length of the shafts and the point weight.