Quote from: acedoc on June 21, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
well said by mr orton!

i would like to offer a comparison between two bows- these are marked 52 @31 and 50 @28. they are drawn to 31(ish). the same arrow generates a speed of 185 fps with one and 205 with the second bow. clearly we have different techniques in construction playing up. now leaving aside the difference in poundage all we have left is ease of shooting and confidence in your own ability. a miss even with a 100 lb bow and a lodge pole will be a miss. targets do behave differently and even the shooter is prone to errors when relaxed, let alone when in a pressure scenario.

the nut holding the bow has to do the job, if you are consistent with the bow arrow combo you are good.

So, you're saying that all of the time I've invested into bare shaft tuning my lodge poles was a waste?


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Quote from: Maddog20/20 on June 21, 2019, 02:14:52 PM

Quote from: acedoc on June 21, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
well said by mr orton!

i would like to offer a comparison between two bows- these are marked 52 @31 and 50 @28. they are drawn to 31(ish). the same arrow generates a speed of 185 fps with one and 205 with the second bow. clearly we have different techniques in construction playing up. now leaving aside the difference in poundage all we have left is ease of shooting and confidence in your own ability. a miss even with a 100 lb bow and a lodge pole will be a miss. targets do behave differently and even the shooter is prone to errors when relaxed, let alone when in a pressure scenario.

the nut holding the bow has to do the job, if you are consistent with the bow arrow combo you are good.

So, you're saying that all of the time I've invested into bare shaft tuning my lodge poles was a waste?


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If you miss the shot , sure enough ! If you make it - then you are golden.

I built a 50# board bow that shoots slower than my 30# Samick Sage.  That Samick is no speed demon -- my bowyer skills just need some improvement.  I built a 40+ one last year that probably beats both (avatar picture).  But a 25# compound could probably smoke them all.

As Kegan stated, draw weight is a very incomplete measure of potency.  Go with arrow weight & speed.  Draw weight is just a proxy for those measurements.

Quote from: YosemiteSam on June 26, 2019, 01:19:43 PM
As Kegan stated, draw weight is a very incomplete measure of potency.  Go with arrow weight & speed.  Draw weight is just a proxy for those measurements.

Now we're getting somewhere.

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An old study worth sharing again...  and again...

http://tmuss.tripod.com/shotfrompast/bear.htm

Dr. Ed Ashby will tell you that an arrow's momentum is the key to lethality...You have 50% chance of hitting bone with any hunting shot.  Expect the best outcome but prepare for the bad one. 

The key is a heavy arrow...

https://journalofmountainhunting.com/part-iv-the-physics-of-arrow-penetration-by-dr-ed-ashby/

I plan on hunting whitetails with a 51# recurve.  I have a set of 46# limbs that I shoot most of the time but even on deer, I like a bit extra

I think many folks underestimate the force on an arrow from a bow because they spend the majority of their year shooting foam or bags.  If you waste a few arrows on some less yielding objects in a "safe" manner I think you'll see just how powerful a 50# can be.  And thats with just a field point.  Now take a razorsharp broadhead and throw that in the mix.    .  Also, not all bows of a given weight are created equal when it comes to stored energy.  Some are dogs and some modern designs rival bows of yesteryear that are 5-10# heavier easily.  I own several bows around 50 that with a 550-600 arrow I would use on any American critter with zero hesitation.

Quote from: nineworlds9 on June 28, 2019, 08:48:20 AM
I think many folks underestimate the force on an arrow from a bow because they spend the majority of their year shooting foam or bags.  If you waste a few arrows on some less yielding objects in a "safe" manner I think you'll see just how powerful a 50# can be.  And thats with just a field point.  Now take a razorsharp broadhead and throw that in the mix.    .  Also, not all bows of a given weight are created equal when it comes to stored energy.  Some are dogs and some modern designs rival bows of yesteryear that are 5-10# heavier easily.  I own several bows around 50 that with a 550-600 arrow I would use on any American critter with zero hesitation.

Agreed

I'm not sure why, knowing what we do about the physics of archery, why draw weight is even a point of discussion.

The reality is that what matters is that an arrow of a certain weight AND FOC needs to travel a certain speed to get the necessary penetration.

Even arrow design affects that flight and penetration.  For example, I get better penetration with my Black Eagle Instincts than my Eastons out of the same bow because a big chunk of the mass is up front in the outsert and tip, so the impact isn't translated through the arrow as much and so it "carries" better.

Basically, the lethality is a function of mass and speed...which aren't necessarily a function of draw weight


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I don't totally agree.  Some of the blindly accepted premises of Dr. Ashbey don't translate from paper to field in all circumstances.  Or maybe there is much misinterpretation of his premise.  There must be a balance of arrow weight, foc weight and speed of arrow to reach the maximum potential of any bow.  You can't just blindly make a heavier arrow and more weight up front and expect it to magically shoot through any animal at any angle or point on the animal.

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I think having good flight and angle of impact is sort of assumed.


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I'm struggling not with this but it correlates. I'm shooting #50 @ 28" but I draw 31". I've killed deer and elk with bows of this weight without issue. I had early in my archery journey,bought in to the heavy FOC, along what Dr Ashby states. I am working with a new bow of the above mentioned weight and I want my arrow to be 9-10 gpp. I haven't got perfect arrow flight yet but I'm really close. I'm also learning to shoot a new short bow, BUT here's the correlation. My arrows are penetrating as well as the heavy/high FOC arrows. They hit the target flatter with a better impact angle. I have all the confidence in humanely taking elk and deer with this combo. I've no experience with moose. But this is the combo I'd take if I were leaving tomorrow. Thanks Guys

Quote from: GCook on June 28, 2019, 04:17:43 PM
I don't totally agree.  Some of the blindly accepted premises of Dr. Ashbey don't translate from paper to field in all circumstances.  Or maybe there is much misinterpretation of his premise.  There must be a balance of arrow weight, foc weight and speed of arrow to reach the maximum potential of any bow.  You can't just blindly make a heavier arrow and more weight up front and expect it to magically shoot through any animal at any angle or point on the animal.

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Yep.  Plenty of real world examples to prove that.

A bow that's 50@28 drawn to 31 is more like 59 orb60 at that draw  length so it isn't comparing apples to apples.

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Quote from: wapitishooter on June 19, 2019, 08:23:59 AM
The first man who did the super slam with a recurve shot all his animals with a 54lb bow and 450 grain arrow so I would say absolutely yes. I really never understood the super heavy arrows I like my bow to shoot flat Ive killed all my deer with 52lb at draw bows and 420 grain arrows.

Was that for every animal taken? That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

You are referring to Fred Eichler I assume, and he was using a Palmer recurve that was 54#, but at a whopping 31" drawlength.  Almost certainly as much performance as a comparable bow drawn in the low to mid 60's at 28".  The first person to actually complete the super slam with a recurve was Rick Duggan, from Colorado, but I don't know what setup he used.

Ok, so let's twist this a little.  Let's say you're using an average of 10gpp arrow, what's an appropriate speed?

Really draw weight is merely a means to achieve launching an appropriate arrow at a speed necessary to penetrate, so isn't a better metric how fast an arrow flies?


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