Quote from: Overspined on December 16, 2018, 08:31:38 PM
1.5 year old bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods. Horny, little caution, active, and come to almost any call, scent, etc. I don't see why trying to protect them (as best as possible) is a problem. Sometimes a basic rule may weed out some nice young deer meeting minimums, yet overall really change the trajectory of a herd age class. Once a deer gets 2.5, they act entirely different.  It's like nobody complains about the Colorado 4 pt on a side minimum on elk. It just makes sense to allow the dumb spike elk to walk..I've called in the same young deer, and young elk repeatedly. I've never thought...man I wish I could've shot that immature animal...

Completely agree, 1.5 year old bucks are the most vulnerable deer in the woods, first fall away from mom, hormones raging for the first time. By the next fall they are a completely different animal if they can survive...I know in PA, the antler restriction was implemented to increase the amount of male deer in the herd not about trying to increase the antler size.

Quote from: Krex1010 on December 16, 2018, 10:20:29 PM
I know in PA, the antler restriction was implemented to increase the amount of male deer in the herd not about trying to increase the antler size.

Bingo. I've been waiting for someone to point this out. Restricting any age or size class of bucks (from being killed) has the net effect of leaving more bucks alive to accomplish the breeding, and for hunter satisfaction in years to come. Getting the breeding done efficiently is an important benefit of having a better buck-to-doe ratio. Restricting the kill on smaller/younger bucks really reduces the overall buck take, as the more mature bucks are 1) fewer in number and 2) more difficult to kill versus immature bucks.

There's always a thought that the objective in APRs is to grow big antlers. The truth is that...for some people...big antlers are a motivation for APRs, BUT the reality is generally bigger antlers are just an indication of more maturity in the buck population. The old statement applies: "If you want what you've always had; do what you've always done".

I think the antler point restrictions have worked well in increasing the overall buck-to-doe ratio. 

I have a little spot in PA.  I have trail cameras out all year long.  Over the course of the summer I get photos with groups of 3 and 4 bucks routinely now.  I used to NEVER see that!  I hunted in Delaware County, NY for a few years and saw spike bucks breeding does.  This year on my place in PA I saw a fork-horn buck dogging a doe when a six-point came out and ran the forky off.  Before the sixer could get that does first name an 8-point came barreling out of the ticket, gored the sixer in the butt and flipped him head-over-heals.  As the sixer was laying on his back, wondering what just happened the 8-point hearded the doe off, into my neighbor's place (damn!).  I passed up several shots at legal but not super bucks just because I didn't want my season to end!  That is what makes me a fan of APRs.

John Cholin

It basically is all for knot! Now that CWD is in the mix we have to admit the almighty  horn craze might have made our hunting obsolete! WE was our own worst enemy to get hunting obsolete. PETA didn't hold a candle to getting rid of hunting as much as hunters have. Deer farms, the obsession with bigger antlers, food plots, baiting etc. I honestly don't know what the answer is but I do know what we've been doing isn't working. Hunter numbers dropping, CWD on the rise, the efficiency of hunting equipment increasing making it available for anyone in  any season. Coyotes taking 40% of fawn crop and that's conservative. Hunting future is not bright!

CWD has been around forever.  It was not created by deer breeders.  Is it probable they concentrated it in certain areas?  Yes.  But just because it was not known forever, nor even close to understood until very recently, does not make trophy hunting or hunters to blame.

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GCook I'd love to see any data or research documents you can provide to back up your statements. 

The origin of CWD is unknown, and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. It was first recognized as a syndrome in captive mule deer held in wildlife research facilities in Colorado in the late 1960s, but it was not identified as a TSE until the 1970s.
Chronic Wasting Disease FAQ – CWD-INFO.ORG

What I learned is that deer escaped and started the spread. I could go into more and more 2nd hand information I have but I will not. Gary

The information is out there but it's just like climate change.  You choose a side to be on and no one is going to change your mind.
But hunters blaming and attacking hunters is just doing what the antis want.

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All 11 deer found in SE MN this year with CWD were mature bucks. We've had APR's here for several years now.Coincidence?

Yes.  Until recently testing was not as widespread.   As more testing is done the more it will be found.  It was there before just not known and then exposed through testing.

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 Until recently testing was not as widespread. True

  As more testing is done the more it will be found.  True

Because it's spreading like a wild fire!

It was there before just not known and then exposed through testing.

False unless you have data or evidence to back up that statement.

I've hunted and bow hunted  probably longer than most reading this post. I've never heard of anyone before saying they witnessed emancipated deer walking around. EHD yes but those examples of being found dead close to water doesn't translate to CWD. Even that wasn't common years ago.

By the way the climate change thing is irrelevant. I'm highly skeptical of climate change for the record myself. There is tons' of research out there from highly intelligent scientist saying it's bogus. They confirm the temps in recent years just support how consistent the earth is in temps.  I was taught in history that the Appalachian's  mountains were formed from glaciers. That the Sahara desert use to  be a lake. Climate changes. BUT the degrees most folks talk about now prove that it's VERY staple now.
We are way off topic now since your brought up climate change but I still say the horn craze and the commercialization of hunting  was one of the final straws to diminish hunting to being obsolete in the very near future. For LOTS of reasons but they all revolve around having to  "killing" a BIG buck.  We are guilty ourselves of doing what the PETA movement could not do.

You have no evidence more to uport it was never there before than I do that it's  always been there.  It's the same with climate change.  Modern records are too short of a period to know.

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I thought this was about antler restrictions.

Antler Point Restrictions are loved by some and hated by others but to suggest that for the majority of people who approve of them they somehow about anything other than the potential to see (kill) bucks with bigger antlers is questionable.

Even QDMA, one of the biggest proponents of antler point restrictions, will clearly say that the science does not support the notion that buck to doe ratios are anywhere near as bad as what many people think they are (see link).

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

As to herd health, according to Russ Mason, the chief of the MI DNR Wildlife Division, there is simply no science that suggests that a deer herd managed under antler point restrictions is any "healthier" than a herd managed without them.

As to how antler point restrictions relate to CWD, the following is also pretty clear.

"CWD is more prevalent in male deer than females, so a strategy that emphasizes killing more bucks of all sizes is a reasonable step to slowing its spread.
The disease is also more common in older deer, so passing on young bucks so they can grow older and larger, as many hunters in Quality Deer Management Areas do, is a poor strategy for controlling CWD's spread." - Bryan Richards of the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison WI.

Quote from: Tooner on December 20, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Antler Point Restrictions are loved by some and hated by others but to suggest that for the majority of people who approve of them they somehow about anything other than the potential to see (kill) bucks with bigger antlers is questionable.

Even QDMA, one of the biggest proponents of antler point restrictions, will clearly say that the science does not support the notion that buck to doe ratios are anywhere near as bad as what many people think they are (see link).

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

As to herd health, according to Russ Mason, the chief of the MI DNR Wildlife Division, there is simply no science that suggests that a deer herd managed under antler point restrictions is any "healthier" than a herd managed without them.

As to how antler point restrictions relate to CWD, the following is also pretty clear.

"CWD is more prevalent in male deer than females, so a strategy that emphasizes killing more bucks of all sizes is a reasonable step to slowing its spread.
The disease is also more common in older deer, so passing on young bucks so they can grow older and larger, as many hunters in Quality Deer Management Areas do, is a poor strategy for controlling CWD's spread." - Bryan Richards of the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison WI.

Nicely summarized. 

CWD has everything to do with  antler restriction

As a college student with little time to hunt and from an area where a buck rarely sees a second set of antlers because of those who do things less than legally I am strongly against aprs and am real glad that WV doesn't have them.

We have antler restrictions in some areas here in Missouri. I really could car less because I am a meat hunter and would rather shoot a young doe anyway.

So 2 things:

"mature bucks are more likely to have CWD" hmmm, doesn't seem as fatal as they suggest, so I'd say mature is like 3.5 years and up, what's the Wild life expectancies? Maybe 6-7 tops generally? I know there are outliers.

And I LOVE the youth hunt, it's proven the younger you get them hunting the more locked in their interest. Video games is the real enemy to future hunters. My boy is 10 and has shot about 6 deer so far, one forkie and the rest does.  Forkie was first deer at 7 yrs old. Don't worry your big bucks will make it. Plus after that he knows what a big buck looks like and has zero interest in killing lil ones, it was his idea to let LOTS of little bucks go. I believe it's because we see big ones on occasion so it's a good stretch goal to go for a big one. And when that doesn't pan out he shoots a doe. In the meantime we enjoy lots of encounters. At the end of the day kids want action, which includes animal encounters, some success, and learning how to be a sportsman and learn self control and enjoy the challenge. These all are aided by APR's.

Meat hunters, I'm trying to wrap my head around traditional bow hunter meat hunters. If you want to actually kill animals for meat I can think of a lot of other more effective ways than by using traditional equipment. I would think by definition a traditional bowhunter would not be opposed to limitations because by equipment alone you are self limiting. I'm getting the feeling like this is about more than APR for archery seasons, and in this case traditional archery.