S2, I put it on with intentions of it being a training device, but I am not so sure I want to remove it yet.  I've only been shooting with it for a few months and really want to ingrain that feeling before deciding what to do next.  I have no reservations about hunting with it on, I just like the simplicity of a barebow.  My draw length is about 30 1/4" and I have the clicker set to "sound off" at 30 3/8" to keep pulling through the shot.  Works like a charm thus far...Mike

Hey S2, I did some digging around this weekend and found a post that I copied awhile back that may help, I forgot about it until I read your post about saying 1,2,3 or hold hold hold,to yourself, or 50 other things I used to try that never worked to keep me at anchor until I chose to realese. As I previously stated I got the blind bale muscle memory tip off of the Welch DVD. That being said, I have learned to hold at anchor and then when I feel I'm on target I very, very slowly (for me the slower the better) complete expansion and then the arrow is gone, this helps to insure I don't let the arrow creep ahead at realease. And it has greatly increased my accuracy, and confidence as I am drawing back upon realese. Getting more accurate never used to even be a hope for me, again, what follows is not from me, but I have never heard or seen it put any better, so I am sure that the original poster won't mind me printing his post as follows...

"As a ground hunter, especially with Elk, I often have to wait at anchor for the elk or deer to move into a shooting lane well after I have drawn the bow. The bugled in elk, or the rattled in buck, is coming directly to me, actually seeking me out, but if he sees any human movement, the game will be over. Elk will not tolerate any movement period! You have to draw when the animals's head is behind a tree or other cover. Since I don't have a target until the animal emerges, there is no point in pre-aiming, yet I must be at nearly full draw (anchor) for an indeterminable time! The "back anchor" that you have described, accomplishes this feat perfectly, in my case, no thoughts of aiming precedes it or during the time spent there. Aiming is the next thing I do as a part of the expansion. If I view anchor as a resting stage, before aiming, expansion and follow through, it virtually eliminates collapse. If I would strive to 'maintain' back tension as I aim, collapse is inevitable, as you have duly noted."

(The last sentence in this post nailed it for me!)

*****"Anchor is a place where I can relax in an uncommitted state of mind"*****

I hope you read the above, take it in and chew on it a few days! I have learned to do exactly as the poster suggested above, and now I am the one who chooses to realese the arrow exactly when I want to. Again, the above along with conditioning my muscles in muscle memory has helped me overcome 20 years of snapshooting Hope the above helps. D.Knecht.



(The last part of this quote nailed it for me!)

"

Thanks Mike!

David,  For myself, I think I need to change that term "anchor" LOL.  When I think anchor, I think about something fixed, no movement.  Need to "retrain my brain"  thanks for re posting, good stuff!

Ryan

Clickerclickerclickerclickerclicker...
oh sorry, I got excited clicking.    
I can't shoot without one, that's how bad my tp in the form of shortdrawing/snap shooting is.
But by using it all the time, even to hunt with...I have been very successful at taking game animals. That click was the last thing they heard before they were dead.lol And no, they don't jump the string.
 

Hey Smallwood,
You think I should try a clicker?  :D  
Thanks for the help, and sharing your experience.  Appreciate it!
Ryan

I like the close your eyes training.  I'm gonna give that a try for a few days, and see if any improvements happen.

Clicker helps ALOT but it takes pratice to get the hang of it. Its not a quick fix but once learned how to use it properly it will cure your problems. I can luckily shoot without but still choose to shoot with one because I like the way it feels.

When im not using the clicker I go through all the same steps I would if I were shooting with it and I have no problem reaching full draw and holding or shooting quickly if I have I want too. I feel comfortable saying im "Cured"

When I get to my anchor point I repeat to myself keep pulling, keep pulling till the cock touches my nose and the shot goes off...PR

Can someone please explain how one can start "expansion" once the anchor is in place. I try to pull back the string and push with bow - as much as possible. However, I feel it causes a very inconsistent draw due to the energy one needs to expend to do that. Also, getting that exact expansion everytime is very tough. Any advice on how to do this WITHOUT a clicker?

For myself, expansion has to do with my back.

Take one of your arrows and place your hands about 6 inches apart.  Hold the arrow parallel to the ground and about chin high.  Pull like your trying to pull that arrow apart. You should be trying to use your back muscles. You can actually feel your back "firing" or "turning over" with this excersise.  

If I dont fire my back muscles, I can reach my anchor and still be short 1/2" to an 1".  For me this causes a bad shot, because my back is collapsed, my draw is short and my release is not as clean. A collapsed back is bad for me.

Once I hit my anchor, I'm already on target and focusing intensely.  At that point I start to "squeeze" or "roll over" my shoulder blades. I keep "squeezing", while focusing on my target until the shot goes off.

If you use your back you will be surprised how consistant your draw length can be.

For me exanding doesnt mean that my draw length is increasing right before the shot.  Expansion keeps me from collapsing,  Expansion keeps my draw length consistent, it allows me to break my shot with a clean and consistent release, expansion also allows me to shoot a "strong" shot.

Hope this helps

Ryan, in your last post, you make a great point that I think alot of people forget to do... Once they reach anchor they quit pulling/pushing which is bad. But by keeping good back tension and expanding with the back and pushing toward the target and pulling, one gets a dynamic and consistant release.

Good post guys! I have to ask is it pretty typical that once a person gets TP that they usually cant shoot without the clicker at all? Or does it hit some harder then others?
I just apply what I learned from the clicker in to my shot and I havent short drawn or snap shot once without the clicker. Whats happening?

QuoteOriginally posted by S2 Bowstrings:
For myself, expansion has to do with my back.

Take one of your arrows and place your hands about 6 inches apart.  Hold the arrow parallel to the ground and about chin high.  Pull like your trying to pull that arrow apart. You should be trying to use your back muscles. You can actually feel your back "firing" or "turning over" with this excersise.  

If I dont fire my back muscles, I can reach my anchor and still be short 1/2" to an 1".  For me this causes a bad shot, because my back is collapsed, my draw is short and my release is not as clean. A collapsed back is bad for me.

Once I hit my anchor, I'm already on target and focusing intensely.  At that point I start to "squeeze" or "roll over" my shoulder blades. I keep "squeezing", while focusing on my target until the shot goes off.

If you use your back you will be surprised how consistant your draw length can be.

For me exanding doesnt mean that my draw length is increasing right before the shot.  Expansion keeps me from collapsing,  Expansion keeps my draw length consistent, it allows me to break my shot with a clean and consistent release, expansion also allows me to shoot a "strong" shot.

Hope this helps

Thanks S2 - that's one of the best explanations of back tension and how it relates to draw length that I have heard. That would explain why I am collapsing from one shot to another. Will try it and see how it works for me.    

2blade, I'm hoping to do just what you did.  I did have tp so bad that I needed the clicker to get me to slow down, not worry about reaching anchor so bad, and continue to pull through the shot.  Without it I had so much going on in my head that my shooting was getting worse and worse.  I'm just not comfortable enough yet to take the clicker off.  When I was testing some other bows out (that didn't have a clicker) I noticed my form was spot on as if it were my own bow (with clicker).  I think that once it gets ingrained in your mind/body that you could shoot without a clicker no problem, unless something creeps back in.  I really just want to pound it into my system till I decide to remove it...Mike

Great post here! I have been struggling with this problem for quite awhile too. I have a buddy who can comes to full draw and release all in about .5 seconds. Hits 8 or 10's consistently. I can hit pretty well to upon focusing and quick release, the difference is I will short draw. It is really frustrating. I have been working on coming to full draw and holding, strange thing is about 70% of th shots are great when I do this but some are really flyers? I seem to be acually more accurate when I just focus on the spot and release, but then I loose so much power in my bow. I will have to combine the two somehow. I have been working on J Kidwell's ideas in his book, Making the figure eights, blank bale, it is working and I can at least come to full draw consisitently. The thing I have noticed the most is that I was so focused on the target that I falied to use the back muscles and the shot would go off prematurely. I stress that if you keep the push pull at all times even though you focus, and PULL THROUGH the release it will help alot. I have been shooting traditional now for about three years and had acquired some terrible bad habits and my good friends are working to help me. But they are so good at just focus, draw, anchor release in about two seconds that I must seem a basket case to them. But good friends they are and even though they outshoot me all the time they are always willing to help.  Only thing is I have to get good at the achor part first and I think I will have to take my time for quite awhile till I start to shot more quickly. Any advice will be appreciated! Gene

What magazine and issue was Denny S's article in?

Karl-
Not sure if it's the correct answer, but it's just things that I've noticed.  Let me know how it goes! Hope it works for you!

The article was in the latest Bow and Arrow.

I seem to have picked up a case of the opposite problem lately.  I'm not haveing any trouble reaching full draw, but I'm over-drawing in an effort to hit full draw every time.  Been smacking the crap out of my lip, nose, and forearm for the past week or so.

Thanks S2 Bowstrings!  I wasn't aware of that periodical.