Is the window and shelf cut on the wrong side

[old_goat2]

Pretty sure but not positive enough to debate it, but I think Ishi gripped the bow string totally different, more like how you shoot with a thumb ring without the ring part, been a while since I seen that photo though

[old_goat2]

Pretty sure but not positive enough to debate it, but I think Ishi gripped the bow string totally different, more like how you shoot with a thumb ring without the ring part, been a while since I seen that photo though

Edit, link to Ishi shooting

https://www.google.com/search?client=tablet-android-dell&source=android-home&tbm=isch&source=hp&ei=I4hFXOiLGs3YsQWnqq7QBQ&q=ishi+shooting+style&oq=ishi+shooting&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.1.0.0i24.2451.9510..11334...1.0..0.181.1036.1j6......0....1.......4..41j0.5HBkpzpcSWQ#imgrc=MKYgXi6Sy2H0CM

[PistolPete]

Actually, I'm shooting a thumb release, with the arrow and shelf on the left side of the bow (right handed shooter). This way I get the arrow under my eye, can still use a bow quiver, draw another 3" (vs fingers), AND get an incredibly clean release. Works very well for me -- just have to drop my thumb 3/8" under the nock instead of snugging tight to it.

[Poultrygeist]

With a right hand bow with a shelf cut on the right side of that bow and with the tension your fingers put on the bow string... I think if you were in a hunting situation and had to cant your bow to any degree you could run into problems with your arrow coming off the shelf.

[Overspined]

Bows have been shot many different ways before modern times. Whatever it took to bring home the meat, there are accounts of all different types of holds and draw techniques.  Whatever sends the arrow to the beast...bows pre-modern times generally were not a very heavy pull either so pulling with different techniques was more doable. Try pulling a bow with a Native American string pinch and you'll find it hard when the draw weight increases.

[flint kemper]

Like this?

[Blackstick]

I have also been contemplating this very same idea. When I get serious about it, I plan on getting an old Bear with dual shelves and sight windows to play with. I also admit that torque on the string makes some sense to me.

[Poultrygeist]

Did not imply that it could not be done. But in a situation where you had to shoot your bow on a slight, or severe angle, with your fingers putting torque to the string to at least help with keeping the arrow on the shelf of the bow, and not trying to remove it from the shelf. And that in a fast hunting situation that it would be easier for most hunters to execute the shot. For most shooters i think it would be hard not to torque the string with a hunting poundage bow, whether you be a left or right handed shooter, and you pull the string with your fingers.

[YosemiteSam]

Right or left -- just the archer's paradox.  Look it up if you aren't familiar with it.  Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.

As for Lars, he's got skill.  But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate.  I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow.  But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M.  It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets.  Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it.  Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games.  Being skilled at one helps to learn the other.  But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.

There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars.  He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare.  Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot.  War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy.  I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me.  At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want.  Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.

[pavan]

Take a non-center shot bow. Shoot it with a centered jaw mechanical release.  Film it with your best video camera and watch what the arrow does.  It will bend just about the same as a finger released arrow.  Into the bow and then around the bow.  It is simple physics.  Isi, I do not want to dis on his shooting what so ever, but it is such a different stature from what we all do, it would be very foreign thing to attempt.  There is a picture of me shooting when I was four years old.  I shot facing the camera, with the bow canted just Ishi with a lap fingered release.  I remember when I was five that a man taught me how to pull with my three fingers and put the arrow on the other side of the bow.  He said, "Stand sidewayser and look left."  About 6 years later, that same man came by when lightning sheared a big chunk of wood off the perfectly straight ash tree.  That lightning dried ash was amazing.  He made two billet joint bows, with Hill style grips, sinew and  clarified calf skin backed. A 60" for me and a 66" for himself.  I shot my first pheasants with that bow and a bunch of rabbits.  One of the best shooting bows that I ever owned.  Sorry, but the Hill way was better than the Ishi way for me.

[Overspined]

Right or left -- just the archer's paradox.  Look it up if you aren't familiar with it.  Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.

As for Lars, he's got skill.  But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate.  I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow.  But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M.  It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets.  Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it.  Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games.  Being skilled at one helps to learn the other.  But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.

There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars.  He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare.  Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot.  War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy.  I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me.  At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want.  Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.

I'd like to see the historical source stating native Americans used different bows for war than hunting. I have a Native American historian as a relative who got me into this whole traditional thing 30 years ago and has an archive of detailed tracings and photos of bows from public and private collections, never a mention of war bows vs hunting bows..sounds made up to fit a theory (by Lars) which happens a lot on the net.

[YosemiteSam]

Right or left -- just the archer's paradox.  Look it up if you aren't familiar with it.  Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.

As for Lars, he's got skill.  But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate.  I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow.  But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M.  It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets.  Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it.  Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games.  Being skilled at one helps to learn the other.  But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.

There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars.  He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare.  Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot.  War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy.  I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me.  At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want.  Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.

I'd like to see the historical source stating native Americans used different bows for war than hunting. I have a Native American historian as a relative who got me into this whole traditional thing 30 years ago and has an archive of detailed tracings and photos of bows from public and private collections, never a mention of war bows vs hunting bows..sounds made up to fit a theory (by Lars) which happens a lot on the net.

It would take a loooooong time to search the evidence for this among all the various Native American cultures to disprove his idea.  I know here in CA, many of the valley cultures used different bows for different purposes.  Small game bows were reported to be made from just about any stick lying around while big game bows were often the famous sinew-backed juniper (incense cedar) short bows made by the Miwuks & other groups that lived in the Sierras.  Not the war bow/hunting bow combo that the YouTuber reports but the same idea of having different bows for different purposes.

Personally, I like to have more than one bow, more than one rifle, more than one car.  Seems like common sense to have more than one of any tool you rely on.  Again, the YouTube guy might not have any evidence for his claim -- I don't really know either way.  But I wouldn't say it's outlandish either.