Ladder pattern development

[Bobby Urban]

Is grinding the groove in the key to the ladder and chatoyance(sp) or would you pound them in with a jig in your press or little giant?  

Very cool tutorial - thank you again for all you share with us mere mortals like myself.

[Lin Rhea]

Thanks.
Bobby, Whether or not you grind the pattern in and forge it or use dies to forge the pattern in and grind it flat, There is not much difference in the outcome as long as you create the sufficient or, better yet, optimum distance of perpendicular travel between the offsets and consistent pattern of offsets. I believe that there is an optimum distance of travel and this is what gives the chatoyance. The shimmer comes from the edges of the layers that have turned across the blade thickness. All of this, of course, is assuming that you grind the blade to the pattern's peak. If you grind in too much, the pattern is diluted causing it to look washed out.

When you buy a set of dies, you have to accept the fact that for the best result in your pattern you will have to make all of your blades the thickness prescribed and dictated by the depth of the dies.* Remember the formula will apply to the use of dies just as much as grinding although somewhat convoluted. This is why I grind them in. I can use the formula for whatever size, but more importantly, whatever thickness blade I want.

* This is why you will see some ladder type patterns that are very clear and some are washed out, almost unrecognizable. It's because there was not much consideration of the starting or finish thickness when using the dies in the process.

This is just my view at this time. I dont want to sit here and say it is the best way but it does work for me. I think it gives me more control over the outcome.

[Bobby Urban]

Point taken and, again, I truly appreciate all your help and information.  I believe at my skill level(or lack there of) I will be farther ahead using a grinder ant this time even though I could make dies for my press or hammer.  

More control of the outcome with a grinder without big "oopsy" I smooshed it too much action.

[D.Ellis]

Thanks for the detailed pics and info. And special thanks for including the part about the twisted version, which may just be my favorite pattern of all. I wonder if I can pull this off with hand hammers?? Guess I'll find out.
One question about your version of w's. Why do you squish the initial stack on a 45* rather than just on edge? I assume it's makes for a different look?
Darcy  

[Lin Rhea]

Darcy,
        I do that for two reasons. Number one, yes it gives it a look. It slants the layers so that when you cut the grooves in, it has to go through the layers that have been slanted. It creates lots of little hooks and flips and curves.
        Number two, Should I decide to use part of the billet for a twisted pattern blade, I get the same effect, more flips and curves mixed in the twist, not to mention the little flame pattern along the edge.

In other words, I can make my billet as shown, forge a ladder pattern blade and cut it off the billet. Then I can square and twist the remainder of that billet for smaller blades. I did just that with this billet. I got a 12 inch blade of ladder pattern, then twisted the rest and forged two hunters. All from the same billet.

[Kevin Evans]

Good job Lin  

[D.Ellis]

Awesome, thanks Lin.
One more question. When you twist it, do you always forge it square, and twist it, or have you tried forging it round first and twisting from there? With the billets I have twisted I always forged it round, just to save material(not having to grind off the corners) as bashing it out by hand is hard enough, I hate to loose too much steel. I do not get the standard twist "stars", and I figured this must be from forging round first. That's how I ended up with the sasquatches in that bowie a while back.
Thanks again,
Darcy  

[Lin Rhea]

Darcy, I'm glad you asked.

I always forge it square but I don't grind off the corners, I forge them into the bar. I place the twisted bar lengthwise on the power hammer dies and draw it widthwise. If I was doing it by hand, I would just hammer it a little at a time back into a rectangle of a size suitable for blades. I like 3/4 inch X 1/4 inch. All of the spiraled corners are driven in along with the flats, not directly on the points. They just suck into the bar as you forge the flats. You may have to see it done. It's very hard to explain but quite easy to do.

[D.Ellis]

That makes sense. Thanks Lin.
Darcy