I've tried a number of carbon shafts looking for more duraburility. No doubt: they hold up better than wood or aluminium -- but they fail in a different way.
Here's a pic of the point end of an Easton AXIS. The problem I'm talking about is the mushroom growing on the end of the shaft.
(http://jdavitt.ripco.net/~jdavitt/archery/EastonAXIS.jpeg)
Obviously, this arrow was shot a lot: the camo film is being worn away. The area just behind the point was protected by a Broadhead Adaptor Ring -- a tapered ring that transitions the larger diameter points to the shaft.
I thought that the epoxy was allowing the insert to move back in the shaft.
I tried "footing" some carbons with sleeves cut from aluminum arrows. Here's a pic of an Arrow Dynamics Trad.
(http://jdavitt.ripco.net/~jdavitt/archery/FootedAD.jpeg)
As you can see, the mushrooming still occurs: there's a bulge behind the blunt and a crack has begun to form in the aluminium.
Unlike the Easton HIT inserts, these inserts have a sholder.
So: has anyone figured out how to stop this?
no pics there bud,,did you delet them from photobucket after posting,,You have to leave them in there till the post runs it course,,JB never seen this before so I', very interested :>
It's not just carbons that fail like this: here's a pic of an Easton 2419.
(http://jdavitt.ripco.net/~jdavitt/archery/Easton2419.jpeg)
Granted, I shot this into a board "to see what would happen." (Now, I know.)
The Easton AXIS above was shot into foam and the hardest thing I shot the Arrow Dynamics arrow into was a golf ball.
WOW,, I've never seen that before,,do you stump with them a lot,,That might be the cause,,JB
So What are you shooting them out of? A 2419 is a serious piece of aluminum tubing! what glue are you using for the inserts. I've only done stuff like that hitting solid stuff - brick walls, oak boards, trees, etc.) from my heavier bows ~70#....
There's gotta be more to it.... what's the "rest of the story"?
Edited to add a few thoughts....
1- Is the carbon shaft end square? No internal bevel on the shaft end?
2- Are the inserts the correct size, the shoulder square, and seated flush against the shaft?
3- Is the epoxy you are using strong enough?
4- Have you done this to aluminum that was NOT abused by shooting into hard objects like boards and walls?
5- How many shots until it "mushrooms"? Given the wear showing on the end of that carbon, you may simpliy be wearing out the shaft end. When you get down through the coating you wear the shaft itself and each shot is one closer to failure...
Then again, you're doing the same thing to a footed carbon???
Looks like you need to use better glue and quit shooting rocks and engine blocks. :) Invest in a target and save your arrows. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by hockeyref:
So What are you shooting them out of? A 2419 is a serious piece of aluminum tubing!
The 2419 failed on the first shot into a board using an 85# @ 29" bow. I didn't expect it to hold up but wanted to see what would happen.
Quotewhat glue are you using for the inserts.
FerrLTite for the aluminium, Easton epoxy for the Easton AXIS, and (I think) CA gel for the Arrow dynamics.
QuoteEdited to add a few thoughts....
1- Is the carbon shaft end square? No internal bevel on the shaft end?
The ends were square; they were cut at the archery shop using an Apple saw.
Quote2- Are the inserts the correct size, the shoulder square, and seated flush against the shaft?
Yup.
Quote3- Is the epoxy you are using strong enough?
I think that adhesive needs some attention. I used CA for the Arrow Dynamics; that might be too brittle. I'm trying to decide what I'll try next.
The Easton epoxy I used is no longer the adhesive Easton recommends. I'm not sure exactly why; it may be that the original epoxy was too brittle. Does anyone know?
Quote4- Have you done this to aluminum that was NOT abused by shooting into hard objects like boards and walls?
Nope.
Quote5- How many shots until it "mushrooms"? Given the wear showing on the end of that carbon, you may simpliy be wearing out the shaft end. When you get down through the coating you wear the shaft itself and each shot is one closer to failure...
With the Easton AXIS: several hundred, I'd guess. With the sleeved Arrow Dynamics: not more than a few dozen shots. (But those golf balls were taking off!)
QuoteThen again, you're doing the same thing to a footed carbon???
Yeah that's what has me wondering. I'm shooting the footed Arrow Dynamics with a 70# bow. That's still somewhat heavy, but I expected longer shaft life than a few dozen shots.
And, given that the Arrow Dynaimcs inserts have flanges, I'm not so sure that the adhesive used is very important.
The epoxy that comes with the Axis shafts is the best I have ever found.I guess with bows of that weight nothing is going to hold up shooting hard objects.Sorry but I don't see a fix other than more arrow freindly targets. jmo
you gotta shoot soft stuff man ! :thumbsup:
Ok....So we know that you're shooting a 85#@29" and footed carbons at rocks (golf balls).... what is your "normal target'? if you are not doing a lot of roving and stumping then we are getting back to your target material. Some stuff is harder on arrows than others..... I also assume that the point is the same diameter or larger than the shaft. Smaller would obviously accelerate the wear.
QuoteOriginally posted by hockeyref:
Ok....So we know that you're shooting a 85#@29" and footed carbons at rocks (golf balls).... what is your "normal target'? if you are not doing a lot of roving and stumping then we are getting back to your target material. Some stuff is harder on arrows than others..... I also assume that the point is the same diameter or larger than the shaft. Smaller would obviously accelerate the wear.
I didn't expect the 2419 to stand up to being shot into something hard with my big bow.
The Easton AXIS shafts mushroomed after several hundred shots into my "normal" soft target with a 60# bow. After that, I started sleeving my carbons.
Since I started footing all my carbons, my normal target doesn't cause any problems.
I like shooting things on the ground at 8 to 16 yards. I don't have any stumps in the back yard, so golf balls it is! I didn't think they were as hard or dense as rocks. I had real hopes for the sleeved Arrow Dynamics blunts shot from a 70# bow.
how are you footing your axis arrow's? I noticed mine mushrooming after several hundred shots.But I have never tried footing them.
Try something like this:
(http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Pod/04/65/63/p046563sq01.jpg)
geesh man, they're just hollow shafts, not steel rods ;) At 70 lbs that's alot of thump, plus if you're shooting golf balls, I gotta believe that you're not dead centering them every hit, which would mean that the arrow isn't absorbing the force dead on...I'm not sure I'd expect much more from an arrow shaft. I've had arrows blow like that from 46lbs bows...sometimes it just depends upon how the arrow absorbs the impact.
Try Cabela's SST series they have some in the Bargain Cave right now they have a straightness factor of.002 and use an outsert. Iuse them and they fly really well.
QuoteOriginally posted by hill boy:
how are you footing your axis arrow's? I noticed mine mushrooming after several hundred shots.But I have never tried footing them.
I'm sleeving my AXIS shafts with 2" of 2016 -- square on the point end and chamfered and slightly beveled on the the other end. I slip them on the shaft, soften the end of a hot glue stick and wipe some around the shaft, put a little heat on the sleeve as I twist it into position (No direct heat on the shaft!), then cool the ends in water.
I thought that 2" might be too long (Others have said they use about 1".) but these carbons don't seem to fly as well when I cut them as short as a wood or aluminium shaft -- so I leave 'em long.
I've never footed a carbon with an aluminum stubb, but it woud seem to me that you may just want to epoxy the the whole dang thing? Kinda like how you glue a shaft into a golf club head....epoxy on the inside of the aluminum stubb, and on the carbon shaft end. Slide them together and wipe off the excess at both ends....
Some one correct me if I'm wrong on this 'cuz I can't see the footing doing much good if it's not solid?
Try the Brass inserts, I think they hold up good.
They have a 1/4" shoulder and the 100 are long and support the shaft....
Brass inserts don't help. I hit a stump with my new CE Heritage 150's 150gr tip 100gr brass insert, 55# draw longbow ant it drove every thing 3/8" into my arrow and split the end. I did save the arrow, I pulled every thing out and cut about 1/4" behind the split, the arrow shoots just alittle stiffer but I was already a little weak. But I'm thinking of footing all my shafts.
Speaking of Golf clubs, Golf Club epoxy is probably the BEST stuff for glueing in inserts. My money would be that would fix your problem completely.
I've been thinking about using the 2 part shaft epoxy too.... Holds real tight, and definitely designed to take the impact. Only problem is that it's a 24 hr drying time unless you get the fast set stuff (I never tried it). If you want to remove the insert, just heat a point up and spin it in. Wait a couple seconds while it softens the epoxy and pull it out... don't twist! The only problem is cleaning out old epoxy... If you consider it permanent then no biggie. And the standard bottle is big enough to do hundreds of arrows!
Speaking of adding weight and footing a Carbon shaft, has any one used a steel tube rather than aluminum? I have some CX maximas, and CX blacks shafts with aluminum inserts already epoxyed in that I want to add a couple hundred grains too. Looking at weight tubes as well as footing them...
Just foot them with an aluminum shaft of the correct size, as Larry said they are not steel rods, but this will help a real lot. I just footed a binch and my Heritage 150s, I shot into a concrete block at 10 yards, 54# bow at my draw and they held up fine. Shawn
Thats intresting! i will have to experiment with this idea.Using them to also add weight may bethe ticket. :campfire:
I'd suggest you first clean the inside of the shaft w/ denatured alcohol, then allow dry. Do the same to the inserts. Use JB Weld slow dry epoxy to glue in brass inserts I've used the bemans and Axis shafts and not had any problem since using JB weld.
For Axis 340 & 400 I foot the shaft using a 3 inch section of Easton Aluminum 2018 and for the Axis 300 I use the 2117 Aluminum. Clean both glueing surfacinga again w/ denatured alcohol first.
Mushrooming is occurring due to the insert moving inside the shaft. JB Weld is the key here. I know of no finer adhesive for carbons.
I have good luck using amber hot melt on the weighted inserts.I also clean mine and use a 22cal barrel brush for the inside of the shaft.But I'm curios how you get them out with jb weld or do you get them out?
I too clean mine with a gun cleaning brush, ruff up the insert with sand paper and then use AAE Fastset gel. The inserts will not push back into the arrow, HOWEVER, you will never be able to get them out again.
I've gone to jb weld and it fixed most of my mushrooming problems. However, I don't think you're going to find anything that will fix your problem completely at the distances (very close), with your bow poundage (heavy), at a very hard target (even golf balls are very hard).
I did not see ya tried the footing, ya have to position it right and make sure it is longer than the adapter inside. I put it so it is to the back of the insert where it meet the head. Shawn
Honestly, I've never had a carbon shaft mushroom like that. Split like a banana when I hit a steel plate? Yes. But never a mushroom like that from normal wear and tear.
I just footed a bunch of my ICS 400's with 1"pc's. of 2117's for the upcoming Muzzy shoot this weekend. There's no tougher test of arrows...we'll see how they hold up.....