Trad Gang

I'm thinking about getting into primative archery and was wondering what kind of speed I should expect out of a selfbow, built by a beginner-me.  For those of you who have shot yours through a chronograph, what was the bow weight, draw length, arrow weight, and speed of your selfbow?  Thanks.  I'm used to shooting 600 gr. arrows about 150 fps with my old recurve so anything close to that would be OK for me.  Thanks.

150fps. is totally doable with selfbows and I would even say that 150 is about the average with an 8 to 10g./lbs. arrow.

When you start getting into the upper 170's and above is when the bowyer has done their homework and designed and tillered a bow with cast in mind.

Ray   ;)

I shot with Chaley Lamb a few years ago at MOJAM and he was using a selfbow.  One of the finest shooting bows I've ever seen.  I kind of doubted a self bows ability until that day.  Charley must have been drawing that thing about 30" and it was as fast as most bosws I've shot with.  I keep building self bows hoping to get one to perform like his.  Maybe one day it will happen.

Selfbows can be as fast as any laminated bow, the key to getting a fast shooting selfbow is dry wood which will give the bow very little or no string follow, I built my first selfbow last winter by following instructions from the traditional bowyers bible volume 1. For it being my first bow and it being made from a maple tree I cut from my back yard it turned out very nice and shoots fast and flat. Good Luck with your bows.-Robert

Just take a look on page 42 of the "Quebec Bear Hunt" post.......I'll never second guess my
set-up

I'm here Mike..another guy asking about wooden bow speeds and chrongraphs and such ..sheesh. Selfbows and chronographs go together like Elizabeth and Rosie ODonnel.Do yourself a favor and if you like your wooden bow, NEVER shoot it through a chronograph.There is no quicker way to become disenchanted with a wonderful wooden bow than to put expectations of speed on it it may not be able to achieve.

An "average" 50# selfbow will shoot a 500 grain arrow 150 per second. A great 50# selfbow will shoot that same arrow about 165 fps.We learned that from testing hundreds of wooden bows thouroughly at Mojam 1, some made by average joes and some made by the best wooden bowyers in the country. Average selfbows kill game just as efficiently as great selfbows, because in reality it's not the bow, but the arrow and the archer that kills game.

If a bow sits in your hand well, is pleasant to shoot with no jarring upon release, if it's quiet when shot, it it points well and shoots where your looking, if it's of legal weight, if you shoot properly spined arrows of 10-14 ggp at unalarmed game with no obstructions within your effective range, putting the arrow where it's supposed to be, the selfbow will do it's part and get the job done whether it shoots 136 fps or 175 fps.

If you make/have/buy a wooden bow and it pleases you when you shoot it, that is all that is important.Chronographs are for those who enjoy peeing up the wall contests.  ;)

Mickey....

 

Quotepeeing up the wall contests.  

LOL...

Thanks for the laugh

RayMO

Doug,

With all due respect,
 

Quotegetting into primative archery

and,

 

Quotewondering what kind of speed  

don't really go together.  Not to say primitive bows can't be fast...just that you really don't need to worry about it.  You know a good, hard shooting bow when you shoot one.  There are so many great educational tools around that you should be able to build a great selfbow.  But follow Mickey's advice and keep it away from a speedgun.

I'd agree with Mickey. You don't really want to chrono selfbows. If you really like the bow and it shoots well for you don't bother with the chrono. If you do, the next thing you know someone will be saying "why my bow shoots 180' per sec". Then you will start second guessing yourself and the bow. Guys are always using my chrono here for there wheelies, recurves and longbows. Whenever they give me grief for not chronying my selfbows I just say the bow "gets r done for me". Thats all that counts.

OK, no chrono for me then.  I was just a bit worried about hunting elk with it.  I have me a shoulder problem that seems to like 40# but it doesn't like 47#.  According to Mr. Ferret (thanks for the info.- BTW), if I make a 40# bow that shoots 400 gr. @ 150 fps, I should expect about...maybe 130 when I move up to a respectable 600 gr. arrow (I'm a firm believer in heavy arrows for elk).  Does that sound about right?  My elk experience has been with 590-630 gr. arrow shot at about 150 fps. and I've had great results with that setup.  I was wondering if I would be moving into that "one lung" range if I dropped that low in speed.  Has anyone here used a similar super-slow, but heavy arrow setup for elk?  What were your results?  Thanks.

Doug,

Since I've not taken an elk, I'll leave your latest question for those who have, but wanted to give an "Amen" to what Mickey and John had to say.  If you are new to "Primitive Archery," these are two of the voices to listen to.  WIth the bows they've built and the game they've taken with them, I respect both their perspectives!

I just wanted to comment on the problem I saw several times with guys who wanted to chrono wood bows.  They shot their new pride and joy, didn't see numbers that equalled or topped an Adcock ACS or Border Black ouglas, and were suddenly no longer happy with what had just previously been a prized possession!

They shoot again, now overdrawing by an inch (or maybe two), try lighter arrows, ANYTHING for a number that will STILL not reach the magic figures we sometimes hear.  Sometimes, the bow is even damaged or takes a set from the abuse....

That's the worst-case scenario of chronos and wood.  I know that is not what you were after or asking, but it is why I agree so strongly this the advice you got from Mickey and John!

Get to "know" your bow, learn to shoot it well, and enjoy your hunt.  The number is just... a number!

Hope you have a GREAT hunt and a wonderful time with your new direction in archery!  It's all so good!

Daryl

Sorry to bring this heresy to light but having just looked at Ferret's web pictorial last night for the first time I couldn't help but notice that "Brother Randy" was shooting his newly crafted Hickory Board Bow through a chrony, none the less, according to the caption.  Mind you, that picture was taken 6 or 7 years ago.  LOL!

Doug, it sounds that the reason for you need to know the speed is legitimate and understandable concerning elk hunting and adequate power from your weapon.  For that reason I would think that to clock your arrows out of the self bow is an acceptable practice.  ONLY THIS ONCE, THOUGH!

There are two speeds to be concerned with: fast enough and not fast enough. If a bow feels like it will deliver an arrow accurately and in a timely fashion, it will.

Christopher...that picture was actually taken at Mojam 1 when we were doing the bow testing in 1999. It was at that time I also discovered I made a very "average" bow ha ha. That bow went on to cleanly harvest a late season whitetail BTW

Ghost Dog makes a great point, there is fast enough and not fast enough and you generally KNOW after just a few arrows if the bow will perform up to your expectations.

I have shot up to the feathers in a big hog with a 42# selfbow. I have killed whitetail bucks and does, multiple hogs, a couple javies, and 2 turkeys with selfbows ranging from 43-48#. I have seen arrows bounce off the shield plate of a big boar hog from a 45# bow and I shot a big boar bear in the shoulder with a 50#er and the arrow fell out. Shot placement is everything LOL

Personally I'd have some reservations about going after elk with a 40# bow on any kind, even a glass bow. Elk are pretty tough critters. If I did I'd be mighty choosy about shot selection, under 15 yards quartering away and slip it in behind the ribs going forward would be my preferred shot and I'd use a good heavy arrow of around 600 grains plus with really sharp cut on impact 2 blade head. If 40# is legal and it's all you can handle then I'd use it, but I'd be super picky about my shot. I'd rather pass on a shot that wasn't perfect than to wound such a magnificient animal. By the way my wife killed a 4x4 bull with a 40 something (46# I think) compound, a 1916 arrow and a 3 blade thunderhead 125 a dozen years or so ago.

There is a very wide spread in performance among selfbows. It can be the wood (moisture, density, voodoo...), or whether the design fit the wood, or hurried tiller of an otherwise sound project.

I guess i fall into the "no chrono" camp. When I shoot a selfbow, or any bow, I have certain expectations based on other bows I shoot, including R/D fiberglass longbows or recurves. If the bow "dogs" I can usually tell on the first arrow! If it is a sweet one that surprises you and is a joy to shoot you will know it.

Oh, plus I think the chrono thing gets us into the commercial trap of wanting the latest and greatest. I know several dads living near me who always think they need an $800 new bow just because it is better than the one they bought 3 years ago and filled the freezer year after year with. This in families where $$ is obviously tight.

All for that extra f.p.s. I get kinda attached to a successful weapon, and I think if the chrono busts that partnership up it is a bad thing.

As a bowyer though I do get curious sometimes.

I would not expect that your first few 40# selfbows will be up to the task of hunting elk.  I have made a few that would certainly kill an elk but my preference would be 50#.

Once you make a few, you'll learn to maximize efficiency through design.  They'll also draw and shoot sweeter which will help with that shoulder.

For now, stick with your glass bows for elk.  Pay your selfbow dues and make a screamer that'll do what you want.  It might take a while.  You're not in a hurry are you???  I hope not.

I shot that bear on page 42 of the Quebec Bear Hunt thread. Dang, I shoulda chronod that bow first to see if it would work
   Doc

Equipment:

Osage selfbow 50#@27 (my making so not nearly as good as the real selfbowyers on this site)

Large stone head about the size of a Deadhead...Woody sharp!

Not to mention how extremey quite a selfbow is, my average  recovery after a selfbow hit is withinn sight, critters for the most part have no idea what happened to them (even with hits in the 10 yards range),...you gotta love that, I'll take it over 20 extra fps any day   :bigsmyl:

"I'm thinking about getting into primative archery and was wondering what kind of speed I should expect out of a selfbow, built by a beginner-me."

Doug, I think talking about speed with a selfbow is ok but, more importantly, I think that  a beginner should concentrate on making a good dozen bows before worrying about speed. I spent 1989-1992 (dates are by memory; wish I kept records) making 14 tries at a decent selfbow before I got a shooter I could hunt with.  Jawge

tippit, I saw you shoot your first selfbow. It was awesome. I missed John's last post. Nevertheless, that sums up  my feelings. Once in awhile a beginner will make a fantastic first bow. But worrying about speed with the first few sure puts the pressure on. Jawge

If the concern for speed is to check things like KE and momentum for meeting performance standards (Dr. Ashby reports), my hat is foo to the individual for seeking out this information.  ethical harvests are a must.

But if it is for the "my bow shoots XXX fps!", then it is time to re-evaluate the reason for choosing traditional archery...

Please, please, please tell me it is the first reason.

I agree with all the self bows guys. The worst thing I ever did, concerning my self bows, was to shoot one through a chrono. I felt very disappointed!  Since then, I haven't shot a glass bow and am perfectly satisfied with the "performance" of my bows. I don't remember the numbers and don't care!!!
  As Mickey said...if it fits you, shoots where its pointed, is well matched with the arrows, is legal weight etc, it will take the animal you are shooting, but the important part is up to you. If you don't think it will work, it won't.
    Pat

Well....I chrono everything. I believe (my) selfbows should shoot 100+it's weight. If it doesn't, I give it away.
I've given away several....

I have alot of selfbows and they all seem so so in the speed department but My Joe Mattingly's seem pretty quick, and my welshman Yew longbow seems as fast as a straight limb hill bow.  these two designs stand out...

A lot of it depends on your draw length Doug. If you draw 30" and shoot 40# you are OK for elk. If you draw 25" and shoot 40# you are under bowed for elk. Every inch of draw lenght over 28" increases the bows performance about the same as going up 5# in weight.

Bob I would agree with you if people didn't place KE and momentum as the sole criteria for a particular set up, but those numbers mean nothing if the broadhead isn't sharp, the arrow doesn't fly straight, and the hunter can't shoot the bow accurately. All the KE and Momentum in the world won't help you kill a rabbit if you can't hit the rabbit to begin with. There is more to ethical harvests than the amount of KE or momentum your bow/arrow combo puts out.

QuoteOriginally posted by the Ferret:
 There is more to ethical harvests than the amount of KE or momentum your bow/arrow combo puts out.

Absolutely!!!

In my opinion,,,it would not be what "type" of 40lb bow (wood,fiberglass,compound etc..) would be heavy enough to hunt animals such as elk. It would be what "shot angle/placement" should I take on an elk with a 40lb bow. I beleive 40lbs would cover all of the North American big game animals in the right hands with shot placement being considered above all.

FWIW My go-to Bow for practice and hunting is my Adcock ACS (A lot of folks know this.)

I love self/wood bows and have become increasingly enamored of them, and those who make them (some notably in this very thread), over the past few years. (A lot of folks know this.)

I have two FG (modern) Lam bows - I am lucky enough to have NINE wood bows (3 kids') I have made one, finished two others and have one (number 10) in the "boiler maker" now - LOL. My average bow weights are 40# to 50# (but I don't pull 50#). I have some notable bows (a John Sciffres, 3 Dano Gren, etc) and my latest is one by my local instructor, Mike Brooks. Why have I said all this? Just stateing the facts, Mame - LOL - not to brag, but only to say:

I love them all (as I do also my two modern Lams) but I never compare them to my ACS or 21st Century - even though I may be shooting them in the very same practice session, and with other friends. If I do compare, it is only a generic, "Now, you see, that speed and impact is not too shabby either, is it?" or something similar. I do usually note a difference in what I might consider max effective distance - with me shooting - but I always hunt close anyway, I have come to prefer it that way. I have never chronoed any of my wood bows! Besides I only chronoed my two moderns at other folks interest/insistance - and don't remember for the life of me what they read, now - LOL. I do genuinely hope that this season, or perhaps next, I will feel that it is time to try to take my first Whitetail with one of my wood bows, Cane arrows, perhaps even a stone head, etc - when it feels right - to me.

I started this "trip" because "Jawge" is a "home boy" (NH) to me and so, when I first hit the forums, I read  all  of his posts. This automatically intro-ed me to self/wood bows and primitive arrows. I never dreamed I would "have time" to learn to build one - and stated that often. However it snowballed from there and I can honestly say I have loved every faltering step along the way, including this thread. I hope you will too, Doug.

Ed Scott would say "whitetail quick"

I've not made a lot of selfbows, but I've been very lucky in my instructors.  My first osage bow I did at Denton hill.  Every time I moved some wood I'd run to Dean, Berny Swank, Dirt, Adam Keepler, & Gary Davis.  They would all pencil in something different!  It was quite a learning experience.  Now my good friend Jawge is near by if I'm in need.  Thanks to all these great bowyers my learning curve has been shortened...Doc

There's nothing wrong with measuring arrow speed with a chrono.  It's a tool used to measure the bow/arrow efficiency (if you measure arrow mass and force draw) that can be used to help you design a better bow if you're interested in that.

I am interested in making the best bow I can.  I make primitive bows and arrows.  I know they won't be quite as efficient as the glass bows I build, but I use the measurements to gauge each project against the ones in the past.  Just because its primitive doesn't mean you have to ignore performance.

If the bow you make doesn't measure up with the efficiency of the bows you made in the past or with other's bows but you like how it looks, feels and shoots enjoy it!  Keep the emotion out of measuring performance/efficiency and use it as a tool.

Jason

I agree with the above that you shouldn't be worried about the chrono with selfbows.  To a degree, speed comes with a well made bow.  But far more important is consistency, durability, and quietness.  

Still, curiosity gets me and I scoop up a handful of bows from time to time.  I just picked up a used Howard Hill Big 5 and found it remarkable how it seems to shoot exactly as my selfbows, in both cast and point of impact.  Wondering just "how" closely it shot to my selfbows, I did a little speed comparison yesterday with the Hill, a Great Plains longbow, and some of my favorite osage selfbows.  

I strung each, weighed them at my 25" draw length, and shot them twice to settle in the limbs and strings before beginning my test.  During my tests, I used my ordinary hunting draw and release with a leather shooting glove.  All bows have fastflight or 14 std. Dynaflight strings with fur silencers.  No snap draws and no skimpy strings.  (I don't want to know how fast they "can" shoot, but rather how fast they "do" shoot).

I shot 4 different arrows of varying weights 3 times, took their averages, and then interpolated the bows' speeds at 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight to compare apples to apples.  

Turns out the Hill, pound for pound, is at the slower end of my selfbows' speed range, which seem to shoot in the low 150's at my 25" draw with a 10 GPD arrow.  These speeds are pretty typical from what I've measured over the years.  If you have a longer draw, I would suspect you could add another 3-5 fps per inch of draw.

What's this all mean?  A good selfbow will keep right up with traditionally styled glass longbows.  Based on these results, I would expect that if you loaded a 600 grn arrow on a 40# selfbow (15 GPD), you'd be getting speeds around 120-122 fps with a 25" draw, or 129-137 fps at a 28" draw.  Now a 15 GPD arrow is a heavy one indeed, but would be the ticket for taking a light bow after elk.  Don't sweat the chrono.  Have fun!

  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/AKinPA/BowSpeedTest8-1-07a-1.jpg)