Wondering what you sleepingbag/bivie hunters use. I have a wiggy but is fairly bulky and I FROZE in 20's temps. I want something in the 2.0lb range. Mine will keep you alive at 20 degrees but you will be miserable.
If you want one that light, look a the Big Agnes down bags. Using down is of course a double edged sword, they are light and warm but useless when wet.
Thank you.
I have and love my Marmot Helium. It is "rated" to +15 but I've slept colder than that. Just need some long johns and a beenie.
2.2 lbs and packs into a 6 x 12 stuff sack (I really like that).
They aren't cheap (no good bag is) but I watched for a sale at REI and got a pretty decent price.
Western Mountaineering are very high quality and light.They are known for temperature ratings that aren't exaggerated.I own a Kodiak and it is very light at 3 lbs but way too warm for most Summer and early Fall trips,even in the mountains.
I like the fact that they have some mummy models like the Kodiak that are a fuller cut and for me,these days,those slimline mummies are just too confining.They have those too.
The Kodiak is a 0 degree bag.I'm planning on buying another,lighter one and am looking hard at the Sycamore MF.It weighs just 2 lbs and is rated for 25 degrees.Check those out.
Montbell super spiral higher is the bag I use you can look up the specs on there website. Packs down. Small and is warm but they are expensive
Meant montbell super spiral hugger
The down bags will always be lighter and the higher the loft- typically 800,650,and 550 fill- with the 800 being the lightest but also the most expensive.
The very lightest bags will a less durable shell so its a bit of a tradeoff.
It helps to know what type of a sleeper you are when selecting these bags. For example, I'm a warm sleeper that cooks in a quality 15-20 degree bag in moderate temps. My Montbell 30 deg bag is perfect for me down to about 15 deg if I'm in a tent. Most guys go with a 20 deg rating. All rating are not equal. I had a cheap down bag with 20 deg rating that was good to maybe 50 deg.
You have to have a good insulated pad when using a down bag due to the loft being essentially nothing on the underside.
The best manufacturers of quality down bags are Valendre, Western Mountaineering, Feathered friends, Montbell, Marmot and maybe a couple others. There is no such thing as a good cheap down bag.
Some of the ultra light bags only come with a 1/2zip. I like the full zip to vent in warmer conditions.
Down does loose its insulating properties when wet and then some of the waterproof outer shells don't breath as they should creating a buildup of moisture that cannot escape. I've heard good and bad with these goretex style outer shells.
Many of those good bags can be found on sale in the off season for 40-50% off on sites like Campmoor, Campsaver, Backpacking light, etc
Would winter or summer be the off season?
The VERY BEST bag I've ever owned is my Kifaru. I have the 20 degree model and it is all that and more if I add long johns, beanine, socks, etc. They are spendy, but the quality makes them worth every penny. I don't recall the weight, but it is extremely light, so light that I've had friends ask if I was sure I had enough bag along.
Kifaru's customer service is also top notch. The thing I like about Kifaru gear is that is field designed and field tested by outdoorsmen. It is also made in the USA...right in CO. Check 'em out at www.kifaru.net (http://www.kifaru.net)
Hope this helps!
western mountaineering and mountain hardwear,i have taken my 20* bag down to 3 degrees no problem.
My son and I have Big Agnes Lost Rangers rated to +15. They may be light, but they're certainly not warm. The weight savings comes from not insulating the bottom of the bag. The inflatable pad is the insulation beneath you. Theoretically, it sounds like a viable concept. Realistically, it's a shivering disappointment.
Interesting. I had a Lost Ranger and now a Deep Creek from Big Agnes. I Love the BA SYSTEM with the insulated air core pad. Always warm and comfy cozy in the backcountry.
I am looking for a new pad that will fit in my BA sleeve. Maybe a NeoAir or an Exped, but may end up with another BAIAC pad before I am done.
Montbell x 2
Western Mountaineering Badger :thumbsup:
Montbell X 3
I'll second the Western Mountaineering bags. The 0 degree will keep you warm in just about any hunt you'll do. The fabric is durable as well. Hard to find a better bag.
Feathered Friend, the best of the best!!!
To answer the question posed on the previous page, winter is the off season. The majority of campers start thinking about the outdoors when the weather warms.
We, however, camp when there are few bugs and all the snakes are asleep. :D
Killdeer :campfire:
I have a BA Lost Ranger bag rated at 15*, but froze my butt off at 25*. I also have a Marmot Helium bag rated at 15*and have been find at 18*.The Helium bag weights 34 oz. and the Lost Ranger weights 40 oz. Both were used with a BA IAC pad.
Marmot Helium
Poncho, poncho liner, and green wool blanket with a little smashable pack pillow all rolled up and bungee corded together. Roll yourself up like a burritto in that and it's okay down to pretty darn chilly. Free if it was issued. Cheap if it comes from a surplus store.
One thing to look at is the military sleep systems that are sold surplus. Jason has a set and with the three parts it's good year around and down to minus temps. I use one of the bivys on my larger bag.
google: military sleep system
Mike
Thanks guys. I figure if I'm spending a couple thousand on an elk hunt, my rest and comfort are very important to me. Time seems to stop when you are miserably cold and your waiting for the sun to come up. Makes for a LONNG night. If I can get a bag that wont fill up most of my pack and keeps me warm, I'll spend some more cash.
I really like my Western Mountaineering UltraLite. Although as a side sleeper the Montbell spiral designs are really peaking my interest--if I wasn't looking at going full on hammock camping that would be my next purchase.
I like my Marmot Helium a lot; it's kind of my go-to bag unless it gets really cold or wet. Nothing wrong with the better REI bags either, and they sure stand by their guarantee. I have a Kilo Plus, but I think REI stopped carrying it. The Marmot and REI's regularly come up on sale. The other premium bags, while terrific, don't. On the other hand, everybody I know with a spiral bag gets pretty misty over it.
Don't forget one or even two good insulated pads. When it's really cold, I will carry both a Z Lite and a light insulated blow-up pad. Makes a huge difference, and you can sit on and beat up the Z Lite in a way the insulated inflatable couldn't take.
And don't ever, ever forget a warm hat or balaclava. I have, numerous times, and paid the long, dark night's price!
I used to do a good bit of mountaineering when I lived in CA. Based on some of that experience I will +1 on the Marmot products. I would also recommend that you get yourself a really good sleep pad as that will help keep you warm. If you are going to have the potential of being "out" for a night I would recommend getting a good bivy sack too. A company called Bibler used to make one that was bought out by Black Diamond. There are hoop versions as well as those without. Be prepared to spend some money.....
Enjoy your trip!
I ve back packed a MH down Gortex bag from Asia to the Yukon
Great bag
Need to wear a layer they do not breath well and you will sweat
You are right, you cannot hunt hard without a good nights rest
If you are serious about your criteria, there's only 2 choices: Western mountaineering & feathered friends. I prefer FF, but both are excellent. Think long term-like using your bag for 15-20 years if you take care of it. The next tier materials won't hold up that long.
Marmot, TNF, Big Agnes, MH etc are the next tier.
zr
QuoteOriginally posted by MikeW:
QuoteOriginally posted by David Yukon:
Feathered Friend, the best of the best!!!
Yeah I should hope so @ $400-$500 a bag!
OMG that's just insane, I use to do a lot of high altitude backpacking(10,000'-12,000') and I've owned Marmont,Slumberjack & Wiggy and one my mom made me + some others...there ain't no freaking way I'd ever pay $400+ for a sleeping bag unless I was Bill Gates rich and only had 2 brain cells left. [/b]
Hey Mike, I had my share of bags in my life, and my last Marmot bag was one $400, and it was really far from being as good as a feathered friend bag... and made in China...
$400-$500 for a made in America (both FF & Western Mountaineering are USA made) bag that is going to last you 20+ years is a solid investment. I have a FF that I bought over 20 years ago and am still using. I am buying two WM bags this spring. My wife has taken to coming along with me and I'll get one LH zip and one RH zip. While intial investment is hefty, amortize that over a couple of decades, using them several weeks a year and a good bag will pay off in the long run.
Completely forgot about FF when I wrote my post (haven't climbed in a "few" years). Glad some brought them up. +1 on that.
MikeW....you sir are skating on thin ice.
I'm tiring of the complaints I'm getting about your smart a$$ comments.
I have received several emails since my post this AM...more of these type outbursts have been brought to my attention.
This type of stuff is not tolerated, nor will it ever be. Personal attacks against others elsewhere was the very reason I started this site.
How about a quilt? check out golite or if you really want it light check out www.zpacks.com (http://www.zpacks.com) or www.enlightenedequipment.com/quilts.html (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/quilts.html)
If you are looking for any other lightweight stuff check out www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com) Another great forum like this one.
I have been looking at quilts also. 20 F quilt weighs 23 oz. Just need a good pad. Which u need anyways even with a bag. Cost from $200 to as much as u wanna spend.
This is a great thread, I normally stay in my cabin (translation - bed and covers) but this year we're doing a wall tent elk hunt and I need to buy a bag. This is helping my research a ton - thank you!
And after reading this and the other thread - there has to be a full moon....
X4 Montbell UL super spirell hugger down 15deg bag 2lb 2oz. I love mine it cost alot but worth every penny good gear is not cheap but can save your life. I did alot of research after almost freezing to death with a so called 0 deg bag. But what you wear to sleep in and what you sleep on makes a huge differance. I use a 1/2 inch foam pad on top of my insulated aircore air matt wear a base layer and have a light weight down jacket in case it gets realy cold. I awoke to frozen solide boots but kept warm last year with this setup I would not skimp on your bag. Widow
The mummy insulated air core fits perfect in the BA bags
After many years of backpacking, I have concluded that no sleeping bag works very well for me, since I don't like to be confined in a mummy bag, and the bags with more room in the shoulders are both heavier to carry and not as warm as the mummy bags.
What has worked well for me for the past 4-5 years is a combination of an elephant's foot made by Feathered Friends and a high-quality down jacket with a hood. The down jacket is more than I would usually take backpacking or hunting, since it is too warm to wander around in during the day and too fluffy in the arms to shoot the bow very well. However, the overall weight of the two is about the same as an equivalent down bag, and it feels great on cold mornings, and some cold evenings, to wear the down jacket around camp. The elephant's foot reaches up to about mid-chest, so there is plenty of overlap with the down jacket when I'm sleeping. And, of course, unlimited ability to swing my arms around during the night.
I too never really liked the restricted mobility of a sleeping bag (I like to sprawl out LOL) buuut i did finally get used to it and find that a mummy bag is the only way to really go for ultimate warmth and a light carry.
good luck on your quest
To the big guys or guys who "hate mummy bags" you should do yourself a favor and try the stretch bags from Montbell and Sierra Designs.
I'm 6'3" 230 [actually, right now a bit more with my winter coat-grin] and these stretch bags are comfortable as all get-out. I can almost extend my arms in my Montbell but then it returns to conform to your body which keeps you warmer.
Pretty clever system really and I have had a SD synthetic stretch bag for over 10 years and it is just now loosing its stretch.
2x western mountaineering with a neoair pad.
I've had lots of toasty nights that my partners suffered through. Nothing is worse than being so cold you can't sleep. Been there done that, with cheap poly bags when I was young.
Money well spent.
Jeff
If weight is the issue, and if you're backpacking, it always is. Then you've pretty much narrowed your choice to Down...
I've never understood the arguments that the synthetic bag junkies make, if you ever get a bag wet, you're pretty much uckfee'd anyhow. So do the SMART thing and buy an E-Vent compression sack for your bag. Also, submerge it in your bathtub, with your bag in it to make sure it works before you stake your life on it in the backcountry. I'm talking about one of these
(http://www.campsaver.com/media/catalog/product/s/e/seatosummit_event_11.jpg)
Next... It doesn't matter how warm your bag is rated. Unless you can defy the laws of physics, your body weight is going to compress all the insulation on the bottom of the bag no matter what you do. SOOo. You need a real pad with real insulation. Two of my favorites are the POC Aerogel pad (its got like, space age strips of space shuttle in it man...) and the Exped Downmat (ooober cool, stuffed with goose down and has its own pump inside)
Now as far as bags??.. I'm 5'10" with a BMI of 18 and I weigh 210 Lbs. If my legs matched my torso, I'd be 6'2" I'm a thick dude. So about the only mummy bag that fits me well is a Western Mountaineering Badger in 6'6" Just enough girth that I'm comfortable, without wasting calories to heat a lot of air that I'm not living in. As an extra added bonus, WM bags are the ONLY ones that aren't cross baffled (or "quilted") So, if its really cold, you can shake all the down that you would just compress anyhow to the uphill side of the bag. If you go the WM route, skip the Gore Windstopper shell. They don't breath as well as microfiber, and on long hunts in the cold, internal condensation can be an issue. Also, WM is supercool to work with. I've had to send my bag in twice to have booboo's fixed. Service is prompt and courteous.
My partner John Havard is a guy that tests the heck out of everthing before he buys it and then if it doesn't live up he gets rid of it. That being said he has been using the same bag for the years I've known him and it's a dandy.
"Mountain Hardwear" and it's a down-filled bag with their proprietary waterproof outer shell called Conduit SL.
If I had the extra money I'd probably go that way too.
Mike
I've got an REI sub-kilo 20degree, and I'm not impressed when the temps get around freezing. The Kifaru Slick bags look interesting, especially coupled with a bivvy bag, and living in WA I really don't like down in the rain...
Wow! Some awesome advice here guys! Thanks!
Jim: I don't know where you are located in OK but give me a shout sometime if you want to see a WM bag. I promise you would sleep well during an elk hunt. ( The secret is the pad)
QuoteOriginally posted by Lost Arra:
Jim: I promise you would sleep well during an elk hunt. ( The secret is the pad)
Come on now...you can't just lay that out there and not tell us
which pad :knothead:
[/QUOTE]Come on now...you can't just lay that out there and not tell us which pad :readit: :)
A lite weight fleece liner does alot to keep the warmest bag warmer.
My point is a great sleeping bag can't do it's job without a good pad that will keep the ground from sucking away heat.
I use an Exped but I have heard good things about the Big Agnes pad and the NeoAir. My Exped is the synthetic model rather than down only because I got it on sale. It's relatively heavy but used with the wider WM bag my old struggle with a good night's sleep is over.
:D dang it. All I can say is "agreed". Have used a BAIAC for a long time and it was always more comfortable than my bed at home. Looking to try an ExPed or NeoAir now to see if they are any better.
I tested out a number of pads (including the Exped and NeoAir), both ThermaRest type pads (thinner air matts) and the thicker matts that look more like an old school air mattress that you'd float around in a swimming pool on. By far, the thicker pads (for obvious reasons) are more comfortable. Of the 4 different brands I tested, the NeoAir was the only one that either didn't leak air right out of the box or didn't leak the first year I had it in use. The interesting thing is, it looks like it would be the first one to leak. The material is really thin and lightweight. It was the lightest of the pads I tested, but proved to be the most durable. Whatever pad you go with, it is a good idea to use a ground cloth for your tent and spent a few minutes clearing off the ground your tent will be set up. The mats can be fixed, but sometimes the air leak is so small you need a bathtub or a lake to submerge the pad in to find the hole.
Funny, was just at our camp and my bud had his north face bag. His bag is super light,compact,and yes,very warm. You owe it to yourself to check these bags out. Mountain climbers can't trust their life to any old bag. Not to mention they need to travel light.
If you want more info on his bag his handle is: missing impossible.
PM me and I can get you in touch with him.
Exped, Thermarest (neoair), Big Agnes. if they hold air they could leak.
KNOCK ON WOOD. My exped has no leaks in 5 years. I'll credit the Tyvek ground cloth because I frequently use a floorless shelter.
Kifaru Supertarp or GoLite Utopia2
Steve: save your $. I'm betting the Big Agnes is no more or less than the Exped or Neo. If you get too comfy you wil over-sleep!
Three years in a Western Mountaineering Sequoia GWS bag. Three years on an Exped Downmat-9, with a Luxury-Lite cot beneath that. I have never been so warm and totally comfortable in the wilderness. I figure I spend 1/3 of my hunt resting/sleeping. I can justify the (in my mind) best bag & bed I can afford. Almost $1G in the whole rig...but I'll get to the end of my days with it.
Big Fan of the Big Agnes they cut the weight by removing the quilting below you and sew a pocket the size of a mattress pad in place. the mattress pad acts as your insulation (which it does naturally) lightes warmes I've owned. Ive owned warmer-10* but much heavier and way bulky. And ALWAYS use the matterss pad the cold will get you from below for sure...(learned that the hard way) :mad:
I'm not a big fan of the Big Agness insulated aircore pads. I've had two of them fail at the valve where it comes into the pad. There ain't no fixing it on the trail.
I ran the Exped Downmat 7M last season and love it. Best pad I've had so far. Good compromise between serious warmth and comfort.
Great thread. I would love to see a Backpacking/camping forum on here. Keep all these posts in a easy to find place.
Tents, bags, stoves, backpacks, etc.
You mean we don't just post it all in the GD and sort it out for hours on end??
That's one of the gripes of mine on Tradgang, albeit a small one ;)
Think I'm going with the Marmot Helium and a thermarest prolite pad.
You can't go wrong with the Marmot Helium.
Marmot. But my bag is pre-china.
They know what they are doing. Or at least they did.
I got my bag in yesterday. It is so comfy! No chance to test it out yet but I love how lightweight it is. The stuff sack is smaller than a loaf of bread!
I actually just got a marmot helium membrane in. Weighs 2#3Oz on my scale, so it's really not that much heavier and it's waterproof. For a pad I went with the new Therm-a-Rest NeoAir All-Season Sleeping Pad. I splurged and got the large. Carry weight according to my scale is 1#11oz . Total carry weight for my sleep system is under 4#. I would recommend looking at that pad. Where's your elk hunt going to be?
Congrats on the new bag. The Marmot is really well made and should last for years.
This may be a lot of redundant information, but here goes anyway:
Do yourself a favor, and pick up a fleece liner to carry along on your trip. It will add a significant bit of warmth to your bag if you should need it, or you can use it as a light blanket if you take an afternoon nap or it's unseasonably warm at night.
Also invest in a waterproof stuff sack. A wet sleeping bag can take days to dry, and getting rained on hard, or falling in a river on the hike in can ruin a trip.
Before bed: Change your socks and underwear. Put on clean dry ones.
The moisture and body oils in your undergarments will be more difficult for your body to heat, and can make an otherwise cozy evening downright miserable. If it's really cold, wear your beanie to bed.
Wool is your friend, and there are a lot of really good synthetics out these days as well.
For a mat, a lot of good ones were mentioned here. I've used the same Therm-A-Rest since 88. It's been all over the western US with me, most of that while backpacking (I averaged 50 nights a year from my early teens until my mid 20's when I got married).
For a failproof mat, that doesn't require holding any air, and is lighter than any of the air filled ones, look at a closed cell foam mat. They're much less expensive, but highly effective. They do take up a bit more space, and aren't quite as plush but they will absolutely keep you warm.
For your water: invest in a wide mouth Nalgene bottle with a screw on lid. At night, turn it upside down and keep it next to you. Water freezes from the top down, and if you are wanting a drink, you don't want to have to chisel it to get a sip. The #1 thing making folks sick at altitude is directly related to dehydration.
Enjoy your trip, sir!
Reviving this old thread as I am in the market for a new sleeping bag. Based on the short life span of my current synthetic bag I'm retracting my opinion from several years ago. Planning to go with a down bag this time around for reasons of both weight and longevity. What's out there for down bags that has a fairly generous cut? Thanks.
Glad you brought this back up. I am getting into backpack hunting here in idaho and have been researching bags n pads.
Settled for the outdoor vitals summit 0* down bag and nemo tensor sleep pad. Both had good reviews.
I have a seek outside tipi coming too.
I'll post up my thoughts when everything's here .
Quote from: kevsuperg on July 06, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
Glad you brought this back up. I am getting into backpack hunting here in idaho and have been researching bags n pads.
Settled for the outdoor vitals summit 0* down bag and nemo tensor sleep pad. Both had good reviews.
I have a seen outside tipi coming too.
I'll post up my thoughts when everything's here .
Looking forward to your review.
Quote from: knobby on February 04, 2012, 08:38:00 PM
My son and I have Big Agnes Lost Rangers rated to +15. They may be light, but they're certainly not warm. The weight savings comes from not insulating the bottom of the bag. The inflatable pad is the insulation beneath you. Theoretically, it sounds like a viable concept. Realistically, it's a shivering disappointment.
I've used these and stayed quite warm sleeping on the ground with their q-core insulated mattress
Gummi bear has some solid Advice here,Common sense,simple and straight forward. Seems we over complicate thing sometime🤔
I have a Kelty down bag rated to 19 degrees comfort temperature. I slept severa nights I it in the mid twenties and was comfortable. Even warm to the point of zipping it down a few inches.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Check out ultralight backpacking forums.
I have a Feathered Friends Flicker 20 degree wide/long quilt and Thermarest NeoAir Xtherm pad. Top notch construction with 900+ down, 28 ounces, accurate temp rating, closes up like a bag in cold weather.
I'm sure this will come up if you check out the ultralight backpacking world but consider a quilt style sleeping system instead of a sleeping bag. they are a lot lighter and I find them more comfortable and more versatile as long it's not getting into the teens (F). Good options I've found are Enlightened Equipment and Thermarest but there are many others. I have spent 100's of nights backpack bowhunting, doing extended winter ski traverses, multi-day whitewater kayak trips and all kinds of other stuff, mostly in Alaska, but also in many part of the world and pretty much always take quilt unless I'm expecting true below freezing temps. (in the latter case I take a Western Mountaineering mummy bag which I find superior to anything I've owned from Marmot or Mountain Hardwear and others including their most high end bags).
just like bows and all kinds of other gear, sleeping systems take practice and skill to work effectively. spend a bunch of nights doing trips in the winter, spring and summer and learn how your shelter and sleep system works. over time you learn how to minimize the weight and maximize the function. my sleep system involves not just the pad, bag/quilt, and shelter (almost always a super light floorless mid) but also my base layers, puffy and all of my other clothing can and does routinely become part of it. for example, a light breathable synthetic puffy jacket nicely complements a down quilt.
also, the whole "down is useless when it's wet" argument is a little inaccurate in my opinion and experience. it's true that it loses thermal efficiency more than synthetics when wet and it's important to learn good moisture management techniques (for all sleeping bags) but I've spent a lot of nights in wet down sleeping bags and quilts (sometimes quite wet) and have done just fine. to me the weight/warmth advantage far outweighs the moisture issue and I spend the majority of my time hunting in very wet environments. again, using a good sleeping system is a skill learned just like any other wilderness travel skills. if possible put in the time doing other activities if you can before hunting season. there's nothing like a week long trip or two any time of year in terrible weather to dial in the system. (seek out bad weather if you really want to figure stuff out!) best of luck and happy hunting!
Cootling, thanks for weighing in. Feathered Friends is one of the companies I'm looking most closely at.
Quote from: skookuminak on July 07, 2019, 03:49:20 AM
I'm sure this will come up if you check out the ultralight backpacking world but consider a quilt style sleeping system instead of a sleeping bag. they are a lot lighter and I find them more comfortable and more versatile as long it's not getting into the teens (F). Good options I've found are Enlightened Equipment and Thermarest but there are many others. I have spent 100's of nights backpack bowhunting, doing extended winter ski traverses, multi-day whitewater kayak trips and all kinds of other stuff, mostly in Alaska, but also in many part of the world and pretty much always take quilt unless I'm expecting true below freezing temps. (in the latter case I take a Western Mountaineering mummy bag which I find superior to anything I've owned from Marmot or Mountain Hardwear and others including their most high end bags).
just like bows and all kinds of other gear, sleeping systems take practice and skill to work effectively. spend a bunch of nights doing trips in the winter, spring and summer and learn how your shelter and sleep system works. over time you learn how to minimize the weight and maximize the function. my sleep system involves not just the pad, bag/quilt, and shelter (almost always a super light floorless mid) but also my base layers, puffy and all of my other clothing can and does routinely become part of it. for example, a light breathable synthetic puffy jacket nicely complements a down quilt.
also, the whole "down is useless when it's wet" argument is a little inaccurate in my opinion and experience. it's true that it loses thermal efficiency more than synthetics when wet and it's important to learn good moisture management techniques (for all sleeping bags) but I've spent a lot of nights in wet down sleeping bags and quilts (sometimes quite wet) and have done just fine. to me the weight/warmth advantage far outweighs the moisture issue and I spend the majority of my time hunting in very wet environments. again, using a good sleeping system is a skill learned just like any other wilderness travel skills. if possible put in the time doing other activities if you can before hunting season. there's nothing like a week long trip or two any time of year in terrible weather to dial in the system. (seek out bad weather if you really want to figure stuff out!) best of luck and happy hunting!
Appreciate your thoughts skookuminak. I'm looking very closely at quilts. Probably around half the nights I spend out temps dip into the 20's and teens with maybe 10% of nights dropping to single digits. The really cold stuff (November deer season) is usually in a trailer and the rest in a tent. In my mind I'm beginning to think I could make a 0 degree quilt work for this??? Your opinion?
Curious what Western Mountaineering bag you use. I'm looking closely at the Badger.
Thanks.
Making my think I should have gotten a quilt....
I have used a 0 degree quilt in sub zero temps and it was okay but I personally think quilts start having diminishing returns much below 20f. That said, they have a wider temp range than comparable sleeping bags and it's easy to use a warm quilt (like that 0) in warmer temps by loosely draping it over me. A pad with a high R-value (at least 5, higher the better) can help a lot as do base layers. I've spent many nights wearing all of my clothes under the quilt which I always feel is an efficient use of pack weight but might not be comfortable for all. It really goes back to spending some time familiarizing yourself to the gear in tough conditions. Winter/spring trips like ski traverses are great for sussing stuff out in my experience.
Re: western mountaineering. I personally avoid any kind of windstopper or other laminant on the shell because of moisture management concerns but I have friends who like the WS bags. For winter or late fall trips where I know I'll encounter cold temps the whole trip I take an Antelope (5F rated) . For true AK subzero winter trips I've used much warmer bags but we honestly don't get that cold of temps anymore very often except in the AK range and midwinter arctic so the antelope is more than adequate for most of what I do. It's also easy to lay a quilt over the bag for really cold conditions.
Quote from: skookuminak on July 08, 2019, 02:28:56 PM
I have used a 0 degree quilt in sub zero temps and it was okay but I personally think quilts start having diminishing returns much below 20f. That said, they have a wider temp range than comparable sleeping bags and it's easy to use a warm quilt (like that 0) in warmer temps by loosely draping it over me. A pad with a high R-value (at least 5, higher the better) can help a lot as do base layers. I've spent many nights wearing all of my clothes under the quilt which I always feel is an efficient use of pack weight but might not be comfortable for all. It really goes back to spending some time familiarizing yourself to the gear in tough conditions. Winter/spring trips like ski traverses are great for sussing stuff out in my experience.
Re: western mountaineering. I personally avoid any kind of windstopper or other laminant on the shell because of moisture management concerns but I have friends who like the WS bags. For winter or late fall trips where I know I'll encounter cold temps the whole trip I take an Antelope (5F rated) . For true AK subzero winter trips I've used much warmer bags but we honestly don't get that cold of temps anymore very often except in the AK range and midwinter arctic so the antelope is more than adequate for most of what I do. It's also easy to lay a quilt over the bag for really cold conditions.
Appreciate the additional info.
I know you are looking for a down bag and this may not be helpful at all...
After years (30+) of fooling around with various down bags I have gone to a quality synthetic. I just find it easier to manage while in the backcountry and at home when in storage. I am pretty meticulous about how clean my bags stay and wash them more frequently (but correctly) than I should. Down bags are just a pain in the neck (to me... I hunt and hike with other folks who use and love them). I have tried several but am running a Big Agnes Encampment 15 right now. It is one of their "sleep system" bags that has no insulation on the bottom but rather a sleeve to put an inflatable mattress in (never have to worry about rolling off or the pad getting out from under you). I use the BA Q-core Insulated mattress which packs down smaller than most self inflating "therm-a-rest" style pads and is 2X the thickness. I am a warm sleeper and have been comfortable down to the stated rating and below with added insulation inside (military woobie and long johns). I have read many reviews that stated folks were cold using the system but in almost all of those they were not using an INSULATED mattress. It is my thought that this makes a big difference.
I am a big guy... 6' 5" and 300lbs. I have the biggest mattress they have and the wide/long bag. Once it is all together with the right amount of air in the mattress it's VERY comfortable and has plenty of room for me to sleep on either side and move around in the bag.
Yes... it's probably a little heavy... bag weighs 3lbs and the mattress is just under a pound BUT I sleep very well. A lighter/smaller bag weighs less but I just don't sleep good in them. I can't sleep laying flat on my back with my arms at my side. I don't sleep that way at home and it wears on me when I try it on a backcountry hunt. It is all a trade off. I would rather carry an extra pound when I have slept good and feel good every morning rather than save a pound and feel like crap every morning of the hunt.
The reason there are so many choices available is because everyone is different. I just thought I would add to your body of knowledge that will inform your decision.
OkKeith
Quote from: OkKeith on July 09, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
I know you are looking for a down bag and this may not be helpful at all...
After years (30+) of fooling around with various down bags I have gone to a quality synthetic. I just find it easier to manage while in the backcountry and at home when in storage. I am pretty meticulous about how clean my bags stay and wash them more frequently (but correctly) than I should. Down bags are just a pain in the neck (to me... I hunt and hike with other folks who use and love them). I have tried several but am running a Big Agnes Encampment 15 right now. It is one of their "sleep system" bags that has no insulation on the bottom but rather a sleeve to put an inflatable mattress in (never have to worry about rolling off or the pad getting out from under you). I use the BA Q-core Insulated mattress which packs down smaller than most self inflating "therm-a-rest" style pads and is 2X the thickness. I am a warm sleeper and have been comfortable down to the stated rating and below with added insulation inside (military woobie and long johns). I have read many reviews that stated folks were cold using the system but in almost all of those they were not using an INSULATED mattress. It is my thought that this makes a big difference.
I am a big guy... 6' 5" and 300lbs. I have the biggest mattress they have and the wide/long bag. Once it is all together with the right amount of air in the mattress it's VERY comfortable and has plenty of room for me to sleep on either side and move around in the bag.
Yes... it's probably a little heavy... bag weighs 3lbs and the mattress is just under a pound BUT I sleep very well. A lighter/smaller bag weighs less but I just don't sleep good in them. I can't sleep laying flat on my back with my arms at my side. I don't sleep that way at home and it wears on me when I try it on a backcountry hunt. It is all a trade off. I would rather carry an extra pound when I have slept good and feel good every morning rather than save a pound and feel like crap every morning of the hunt.
The reason there are so many choices available is because everyone is different. I just thought I would add to your body of knowledge that will inform your decision.
OkKeith
Appreciate your detailed thoughts, OkKeith. Thanks.
Mine run around 2.5 - 3 lb. I've thought about getting something in the 30-40* range for an ultralight summer setup (1-2 lb) but I usually just carry the extra couple pounds & stick to what I have. I've never regretted carrying too warm a bag. Last year, I was cowboy camping in the Archery season up high. Temps were in the low 30s at night. I slept very well each night and was glad that I made my hike in a little less comfortable so that my nights could be very comfortable.
Now if I was going to move camp every day and bivy wherever I found myself at sunset, I might be a little more inclined to shed an extra pound or two.
No worries Kevin. Like I mentioned, probably not helpful in choosing a down bag but more info is better than less... sometimes.
The BA bag I use most often is rated at 15 degrees. I also have a 30 degree bag and a zero degree bag. The 30 is an oversized mummy and I use it more like a quilt with a foot box in warmer weather than a sleeping bag. I have looked into the over quilt craze. The 30 degree bag works fine for cool nights. In my experience, using a heavy quilt for cold nights wouldn't work for me. Every time I roll over (which is a lot I guess) I flop the cover off and end up having to re-tuck it around me and re-warm the inside. That's OK for cool nights... it would not be good for cold nights.
The zero bag is tight to me (well... maybe tight on me since I'm a bigger guy). I have a Gore Tex bivy sack that the 30 and the zero will work in but since I sleep hot I always get some condensation. The zero bag and the bivy usually live in a tub in the back seat of my truck during the winter and on trips to the mountains as an emergency or back-up bag.
I think your tent or shelter choice should inform your bag choice as well. If you go ultra-ultralight with a super light tarp and use trekking poles for the supports, your bag may need an outside shell just to keep it from getting soggy on the ground. If you do a tipi tent with a stove, a different option might be better.
On back country hunts where it all goes in on my back I have a Mountainsmith 3-season tent. It was sold as a 2-person footprint but it is definitely a 1-Keith size. It has a nice vestibule where I can keep gear (and MOST importantly boots!) inside at night. It's small enough to pack but large enough on one end (wedge-shaped) to sit up and pull on clothes in. I have been using it for a couple of years now and really like it. Again, I am sacrificing increased weight for more comfort but it is worth it to me. One advantage to having a strong back and a weak mind I guess.
I have way more gear than I can use on one trip. My wife claims that when she is gone, she thinks I lay it all out and roll around in it. Why else would I need so much stuff? Sleeping bags, tents, stoves, cook kits, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I suppose I could be spending the money on worse "life choices".
OkKeith
I suppose I could be spending the money on worse "life choices".
OkKeith
I think most of us on this forum use that rationale!
I use a golite ultralite subzero bag. I got the water proof down option. The only time I use it is when I am doing a solo backpacking trip. It weighs 3.5 lbs. With my Nemo tent, BA pad, and the golite my shelter and sleep system weighs less than 8 lbs. My 10 day load out is under 60 lbs. This lets this "old man" [64] go where I want.
MAP
I have good synthetic bags but they never get packed anymore. The room they take up in the pack is more critical than the pounds they outweigh down bags with. However our back pack trips are usually 10 to 15 miles per day and a different camp each night. Packing into a hunting area and setting up a base camp to out of might give me a reason to rethink my gear.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
I'm really enjoying all the different ideas shared in this thread. Some of them reinforce my own thoughts, and just as importantly others challenge my ideas. All good stuff.
I have a good many years with a WM Sequoia GWS (Gore WindStopper) under my belt. Basically all of its use has been in Alaska and it has seen the worst and best of weather. I also own a WM TerraLite (microfiber) bag. My experience has been that the GWS models do not show any noticeable tendency to accumulate body moisture over extended time...say 12 days. Having owned both shell types, I do prefer the GWS for use in my tipi shelters and in settings where my bag might get exposed to some external moisture. I would be more likely to choose the lighter microfiber bags for use in a floored tent or more weather-tight shelter.
Quote from: Kevin Dill on July 11, 2019, 07:20:02 AM
I have a good many years with a WM Sequoia GWS (Gore WindStopper) under my belt. Basically all of its use has been in Alaska and it has seen the worst and best of weather. I also own a WM TerraLite (microfiber) bag. My experience has been that the GWS models do not show any noticeable tendency to accumulate body moisture over extended time...say 12 days. Having owned both shell types, I do prefer the GWS for use in my tipi shelters and in settings where my bag might get exposed to some external moisture. I would be more likely to choose the lighter microfiber bags for use in a floored tent or more weather-tight shelter.
Based on your comments can I also assume you are also a fan of the treated down, Kevin?
Actually I have very little experience with down treated to be hydrophobic. I've used it in a garment, but never got it really wet. As for use in a sleeping bag, I probably wouldn't put any importance on it. Maybe in a bivy setting, yes. Inside a good shelter, no. I'll stay with GWS and very lofty down.
Well received my outdoor vitals bag and tensor sleeping pad. Being new to this lightweight thing I was surprised at the quality and construction of both.
The sleeping pad 72x20 inflates with an included air bag in less than a minute. 3" thick. on the living room floor it seems comfortable but I do notice lying on my back I feel my hips are higher than my shoulders forcing me into an at attention stance. I'm sure a pillow will help.
It is narrow , on your back both arms are on the floor.
The bag 75x32 is definitely a mummy bag, snug but enough room to move around. Needed to open the zipper a little for elbow room when sleeping on your side.
The two way zipper did catch a few times and I'm not a fan of Velcro around synthetics so we'll see how long the neck closure lasts. But all and all both seem solid.
I'll update this once I get some time with both. Hope this helps
:campfire:
Quote from: kevsuperg on July 11, 2019, 11:04:28 AM
Well received my outdoor vitals bag and tensor sleeping pad. Being new to this lightweight thing I was surprised at the quality and construction of both.
The sleeping pad 72x20 inflates with an included air bag in less than a minute. 3" thick. on the living room floor it seems comfortable but I do notice lying on my back I feel my hips are higher than my shoulders forcing me into an at attention stance. I'm sure a pillow will help.
It is narrow , on your back both arms are on the floor.
The bag 75x32 is definitely a mummy bag, snug but enough room to move around. Needed to open the zipper a little for elbow room when sleeping on your side.
The two way zipper did catch a few times and I'm not a fan of Velcro around synthetics so we'll see how long the neck closure lasts. But all and all both seem solid.
I'll update this once I get some time with both. Hope this helps
:campfire:
Kevsuperg -
I have a similar setup with my Big Agnes Insulated Q-core mattress (i.e. inflatable pad with a "pump sack"). When I first started using it I over inflated with the same result you are having. I have since learned that it doesn't need near as much air as I initially thought. After having used it a few times I get it close, and just a little over... then when I crawl in I make sure the adjustment valve is easily accessible and ease it down to where it is supportive but doesn't hump me up in the middle.
I mostly sleep on my side with a stuff sack of clothes shoved into the hood. As a big guy with wide shoulders I have to have a pretty big pillow to prevent a neck crick and using a stuff sack and clothing from my pack keeps me from taking up space with a pillow. Jamming the sack (I put stuff like fleece pullovers, puffy jacket, etc. in it to provide soft bulk) in the hood keeps it in place and I don't loose it every time I roll over.
I do know this though... you only let out TOO MUCH air once or twice and have to add air before you learn what works just right. That is a pain in the backside when you goof.
OkKeith
In looking at all the different bag/quilts available I've run across some discussion that states any down fill power above 800-850 is not worth the extra expense and actually loses it loft quicker than the lesser fill power.
True? Anyone have experience with this?
A few decent choices and guess it depends on personal experience.
My youngest is a mountain climber and after narrowing choices to either Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering, she picked up a Western Mountaineering model. It's been used on snowpack and extended hikes for two years and she absolutely loves it.
Not Cheap but the Katabatic line is the best out, next would be a Zpacks..