Trad Gang

I've searched, researched, and read everything I can find pertaining to heavy arrows, hunting weight arrows, kinetic energy, momentum and anything else that seems to be related to finding the best hunting weight arrow for a particular bow.  It seems like all the information stops short of being proven and in the end is somewhat subjective.

A few things that I have been pondering:

Draw weight - I've seen posts and read threads that start out "What is the minimum weight bow that should be used.....".  These discussions (most of the time) tend to be relative to draw weight without consideration of the bows efficiency.  Why would minimums not be stated in terms of ???gr arrow at ???fps?

Kinetic Energy - Seen posts on minimum kinetic energy for hunting (whatever).  I've calculated Kinetic Energy on two different weight arrows from the same bow to be equal.  I know (or at least I think) that the heavier arrow with the same KE is best.  Does Kinetic Energy (alone) really mean anything?

Is there an optimum arrow weight for a particular bow? or is heavier always better, with no upper limit on arrow weight?  I realize that as flatness of trajectory decreases, "efffective range" will also decrease for everyone, although it will be different from one shooter to the next.

I'm to analytical, but would like to hear what others think.

Eagle,   I guess anybody can analyzie themselves to death over just about anything but logic "should" prevail in anything.  I'm an engineer by trade and you can caluculate the crap out of a particular problem and in the end you use what actually works.  As for arrow weight vs efficiency vs speed stuff...It's the arrow that hits the deer not the bow limb design.  It's just common sense that if I put a razor sharp broadhead on a drinking straw and one on a ten pound spear and threw them both at the same speed, which do you want to hit you?

Greg,
From what I have seen of your shooting and them there Adcock bows, it really does not matter. 400-500 grains are good round numbers for arrow weights for your bows. Pick one for goodness sake and let's go kill something with R.L. !!! What broadhead ya gonna hunt with ??? Me and Mason are going to shoot both 125 Phantoms and Wensel Woodsmans and see what works best. But then again, them Treesharks, what a wicked looking head !!!

nocams

Did I mention that we got drawed for Illinois too !!! As a matter of fact they had about 1400 left over non-resident tags left over !!! They go on sale Aug 6th 8AM CDT.

nocams

Frank, You're right.  Hopefully, I incorporate some logic into everything I do.  I guess what puzzles me is that many of the discussions lack a lot of (what I would consider) pertinent information.  For instance, if I asked you if a 70lb bow was heavy enough for moose.  Would it matter to you whether it was a hickory self bow or a Schafer Silvertip Recurve? or if I said is 40 ft lbs enough kinetic energy for whitetails?  and then told you I was using a 20gr arrow traveling 950fps.  I know that is ridiculous, but how can you talk kinetic energy #'s or draw weights without any other info?  

Dr. Ashby's reports make more sense than anything I have studied, but you have to read everything and understand what's going on.  I've read all his reports once, and several pieces more than once.

I suspect there is a weight range, where regardless of the weight of the arrow they will have very similar KE's.  Then the momentum crowd chimes in..... I would suspect that momentum will be the final judge on how well the arrow penetrates.

So the question for anyone is do you need the flatter trajectory or the penetration to make a humane harvest?  I suspect that answer changes with shooting styles and skill levels.'

Just my $0.02

Jimmy,
I was typing while you posted.  I'm gonna shoot 460gr from 41# & 500gr from 45# with 125gr Stinger on each.  Glad you're going to IL also!  Somebody outa get a good shot opportunity at a P&Y buck.  Sent you a PM.  Wanna ask you about a GPS.

This is a quagmire of an argument.  Simply for the reason that it is difficult to prove from data taken from live animals.  Few are willing to autopsy and catergorize every animal that they take, assuming they take enough to give credible evidence.  That said, Dr. Ashby has come about as close as I believe anyone can.  
My take from what I have read and experience over the past 20 years of bowhunting is that bigger is almost always better when it comes to arrow weight.  That flies in the face of KE studies, but critters are not made of ballistic jelly and momentum plays an important role on penetration.  That said, you have to shoot a weight which is reasonable enough to allow you to hit your target.  An 800 grain arrow from a 40# bow (assuming you get find one spined correctly) just won't allow for much more than a 5 or 10 yard shot.  Also, if you are stalking antelope with your 50# recurve you may not want to go 15 grains/inch as your shots may be a little longer.  
Myself, I like 10-12 grains/inch from fairly high perfomance bows on big critters, but scale down to 9 grains/inch on smaller thin skinned critters when I expect my shots may be a little longer.
Just my 2 cents.

no debate...heavier equals more humane via better penetration.  How heavy...well that could be debated...

Brady, There you go introducing more logic into the quagmire.  I'm thinking the same as you.  Any shooter, with any degree of common sense, will stop on arrow weight due to the sacrifice of trajectory, long before he's too heavy from a penetration performance standpoint.  I shot some 715gr arrows from my 41# bow last night.  They really looked slow.  I had to ask myself would they really outperform the 460gr arrows?  I'm guessing they would, but they looked SLOOOOOOOW.

KE is pretty much useless as a precurser of penetration, at least as you start adding variables. Momentum is better, but still there are all those varibles. Penetration tests on live animals would be the best, except it is impossible to duplicate the same shot twice. I did a bunch of penetration tests and what I found was that whatever worked best in one test medium worked best in ALL mediums, however it is REALLY hard and tedious to do accurate and thorough penetration tests. Heavier is ALWAYS better for penetration, no limit, however as pointed out tradjectory is a limiting practical factor AND on most game animals, penetration isn't that much of a problem anyway if you are shooting a reasonable bow and well tuned arrows.

I believe that "minimum draw weight" and "minimum KE" will change depending on the shot and sharpness of broadhead. That being said, I don't believe in hunting with the "minimum". I also don't like shooting spears that arch like a 3pt shot. I prefer to shoot a set-up that is comfortably above the "minimum" but flies on a trajectory that I can shoot accurately.

For me this is an arrow between 400-550gr traveling 165-190fps(faster speed for lighter arrow). This is more than adequate in my opinion. More weight may penetrate better in some situations, but if my accuracy with that heavier arrow is bad, then I'll just get a deep penetrating bad shot.

All I know is carbons at the same weight as woodies and alum. penetrate better all else being equal. I also know that 8-9gpp. out of hunting weight bows 40#s and up at the persons draw, is more than enough for any game I hunt up to and including whitetails. Shawn

If you're talking whitetails, what matters is arrows that shoot straight and tune well to your bow. Never even knew about weighing arrows for the first 30 deer I killed. Just shot what worked best with each bow. The rest is mostly talk to fill the off-season.

vermonster nailed the lid shut with that one !!! Now off to another thread......

 :biglaugh:  

nocams

Doctor brady...you are spec'ing gr/in....that would seem to awfully light if you shoot heavier pound bows: 29" x 10gr/" = 290gr...from a 60# bow this could potentially be disasterous. Am I to assume you mean grains/lb of bow weight? I shoot shafts in the 9-15gr/" category but the finished arrow is far heavier than that gr/" spec.

Greg, I'm with Jimmy, the way you shoot, I think you may be overthinking it some...but that's some of the fun of this stuff  ;)  Most bowyers recommend 8gr/# of draw weight or better for the finished arrow weight as safe for the bow. Doc Ashby has proven, at least to my satisfaction, that heavier is always better for penetration. Like you and others have alluded too, there is a common sense limit that says their is a point where poor trajectory makes the heavier arrow more difficult to shoot accurately, thereby limiting range.

Personally, I think bow weight should be considered. Out of a 40# bow for whitetail, you may get away with 9gr/#...but I wouldn't recommend it. In that extreme, I would prefer to see the guy shooting 450+ grains, because he doesn't have the horsepower to spare so he needs to make it up with momentum. Out of a 55# bow, 9gr/# wouldn't seem out of perspective at all, some enjoying great success on whitetails down well below that mark...but they aren't shooting 40# bows either.

And yes, the draw length and bow design both play a large part that is often overlooked. Longer draw = longer power stroke = more energy so you can shoot less # than us short armed runts and still get equal performance. A highly efficient bow at 50 is gonna be a better performer than a 70# self bow in most cases.

I've seen you shoot and I've seen your arrows fly...I don't think there's any reason why your setups shouldn't work on deer. Increasing your arrow weight will definately add a bit more insurance to the shot, but only if you are not sacrificing confidence and accuracy for that insurance.

JC, if ya draw 30"s though with that 40#s it makes adifference. I know Chad Jones has been shooitng some big whitetails with a 50# zipper and arrows that weigh around 375 grain or just over 7gpp. I blew thru a nice buck and a big yote last year with a 42# Widow and a 340 grain arrow. I used to think that way and always shot 62-65#s and arrows 575 and up, but now with my bad shoulder and lighter weight bows, I have learned a few things. Shawn

I understand your experiences Shawn, but I still think those arrows are too light for me and where I hunt. I've seen my arrows go through both shoulder blades of a deer that jumped the string....I doubt I can get that kind of confidence with light arrows and light draw weights. Yep, they will work great if everything goes perfectly...but I'm not that lucky so I prepare for the worst case and am seldom disappointed.

The more I think about all the numbers the more I realize they don't really mean a lot for what or how I hunt.Light arrows, heavy arrows they all work just fine if they have sharp broadheads on the front.If I was shooting blunts and trying to knock them down it would be differant. ;)If I ever plan a trip to Africa or down under I will check up on the numbers.For deer and hogs I feel it is a waste of time if you are shooting a legal bow weight and don't have t-rex arms.  :)  jmo

Here's another angle.  Do you prepare for maximum penetration by shooting a narrow two blade head, or do you go with the widest four blade head you can find in case of a gut shot?

Well while we're on the subject...I have a difficult time getting heavier arrows to fly well(660gr) out of my 67# recurve. I don't know why. Maybe it's me. I've done the tuning and the best I get is a 2020 cut to 30.5 with 220 gr out front. I'll be using it in Sept elk hunting, with reservations.

What flies best are 500gr carbons, and I use it on deer sized and smaller game. It has blown through the last 3 whitetails I have taken including a 300# buck last December. I am very tempted to hunt elk with those carbons but the whole heavy arrow debate bothers me. Any thoughts?

I'm sure part of it is confidence and "feel" as the arrow is released. I need to tame this problem with a trip to Africa next year looming. Dr Ashby used big arrows for big game. I wonder how much is "enough" for game in our little part of the world.

Agreed!! I will also say the Indians and many hunters before us could of cared less abouty all this they made up an arrow from whatever available and if it flew good they could of cared less what it weighed. They got close and made good shots and that was that. I sometimes think we all think too much, I know I do and it gets me in trouble!  :knothead:    :bigsmyl:  Shawn

Chris, with my bows and my arrows, I shoot whatever head I happen to choose that day. Typically, I carry a woodsman, a STOS, and either a Simmons Interceptor or Simmons Treeshark both with bleeders in my bow quiver. Most hunts, I have all of these in my quiver. All have performed perfectly in my experience so I shoot whichever I feel the whim to at that time. Variety...one of the spice's of life   ;)

Agree with Vermontster.  for deer, there is hardly a wrong set up.  I have gotten pass thru's with a 45 lb bow and I suspect I could do it with high 30's, as long as you are taking reasonable shots for that equipment.  For larger game, or for long range shots, then the discussion is real.   I believe they (law enforcement)use the bow poundage as a rule of thumb because it is clearly and quickly evident in the field.  It is something that can concievably be controlled.  Can you imagine having to carry documentation with you describing calculations of your bow's efficiency and validated using particular draw length, arrow weight, string, etc. etc. so that the officer can review them in the field to determine if you met the stated minimums ?
ChuckC

Yep, you're right Shawn, but my ancestor's ethics were based on survival...convention at that time was certainly different than modern times...I think it's a different story today.

If a guy has complete confidence with light bows and light arrows, has proven it on game, more power to him. Hopefully, they will always perform that way for him/her. Like I said though, I'm not quite that lucky so I like a bit more "insurance".

I'm kinda like you JC.  I shot deer with a Landshark, one with an Interceptor, and one with a Treeshark last season.  It's all good.   :thumbsup:

Chris, my goal this year is to kill every big game animal with a different head: so far an angora goat in march with a woodsman, and a bear last month with a deadhead (forgot to add that to my list above). I think the next will probably be one of the Simmons.

I'm working on getting bleeders in my STOS and if I can bring myself to it, one in a couple of Deadheads too just for the sake of experimentation.

Chuck, You bring up another side point for discussion.... You guys that are right around 28" draw could point to the writing on your bow and say "I'M LEGAL" if you happen to live in a state that specifies minimum draw weights.....

Now I draw ~32" and - as an example - have a Hoyt Gold Medalist with 32# limbs that measures 43# at my draw. I have a Bear Black bear that is 40# but over 50# at my draw, a Howatt 60# that isupwards of 70# AT MY DRAW. Depending on the bow, I could be shooting a "legal weight" measured at my draw but to the WCO looking at it I'm 5-10 # too light.... And I'm sorry to say some WCO's just don't have the knowledge to think that stick bows stack - I mean if says it is 35# then it's 35# no matter what that scale says!

wapiti792,

Not sure why you're having trouble getting your heavy arrows to fly right out of your 67 lb bow.  I also shoot 67 lbs and use 645 gr carbon arrows which are tuned perfectly for that bow.  Had no problem zipping through both shoulders on a 5x6 bull elk last September.  But if you are getting good arrow flight from 500 gr carbons from that bow I don't think you'll have any problems putting one of those through an elk.  However....I think that is waaaay to light an arrow for that bow.

Brett

Wapiti792... I'd go ahead and shoot the carbons at elk. If they fly great and you have a razor sharp broadhead you'll be fine.

I don't care who you are or what bow weight, arrow combo you might shoot. If you get into the bony structure of an elks front end you're probably gonna lose.

JC,
Bottom line 460gr carbon arrow w/125gr Stinger @ 184fps perfect arrow flight.  I think I know what will happen if I make a perfect "center punch" broadside hit on any whitetail.  If I should happen to hit a shoulder blade (not ball joint) on a 300# whitetail am I in trouble?

Steve,
Here in AL I think the law reads 35# at the hunters draw length.

Let me add that the 2020 never worked that well for me in that weight bow at that length. A 2216 or maybe even a 2219 should work great. You'll get a little more weight with the 2216 and a whole lot more with the 2219.

Thanks Charlie. I've got a few 2216s sitting around. I'll see what they do. Yeah, it's all about painting them red. Elk shoulders are a bit rough on ANY arrow. I'll just have to stay away from those shoulder bones and put 'em where they ain't.

It would be complete speculation Greg, I have no experience with weights that light. I will say, I'm sure there are guys on here who have done it numerous times so it's not a factor of "it can't be done". I'm just big on insurance   ;)

I can't wait for hunting season when we can talk about the animals we've killed with our bow instead of whether or not we can kill an animal with our particular set-ups.  :)  

12 weeks and counting......

Science and calculations has a lot to do with it for sure; but how it flies and where it goes is still more important than what it weighs and how many fps it had. That said; I like 12 gpp outta my 50# bows.

QuoteOriginally posted by JC:
I'm just big on insurance    ;)  

Why you need insurance JC?  You hit'em through both lungs and/or the heart everytime!  :confused:  

That Javvy does'nt look like he's popping his teeth now!

Kent Ostrem (Mahaska) told me a story of a bear hunt he took in Canada.
He found an old bear's Scapula in the woods, and leaned it against a tree in camp. Several compound shooters and Trad guys shot it with their hunting rigs. Kent said Nobody went through it.

QuoteOriginally posted by eagle24:

If I should happen to hit a shoulder blade (not ball joint) on a 300# whitetail am I in trouble?

I hit the shoulder blade on an approx 125# whitetail buck 7 or 8 years ago when I was shooting wheels.  I was shooting a 2419 that finished up at or just over 700 gr. going 236 fps. out of the 92# bow I was shooting.  I DID NOT get enough penetration to kill him.  He was seen two weeks later by my friend who hunts on property about a mile away.  His shoulder had scabbed over.  The shot was at 20 yards so arrow flight was perfect (Big Feathers + Lots of Helical).

There's just no telling what's going to be enough on any given shot.

first off, work with what you got.

second it only matters if it ACTUALLY GET TO THE ANIMAL!

third, in addition to #2, it only matters if it hits the rightplace.

fourth, out of my Fred Bear Kodiak Magnum 45#@28", 520 grains or so is too heavy..... (ive since cut my GrizzltStiks to 28 1/4" and put in the aliminum insert and dropped her down to 450-460 grains...)

The problem with most of these discussion sis that "Whic is better" is irrelevant.


The question you should be asking is "which is enough".  The truth is very few of us aren't shooting rigs capable of taking anything this side of moose.

How about the noise factor with light arrows ??      


Last week I was guiding a mainland hunter, when he took a shoot at a pig with his recurve and light arrows it sounded like a cannon whent of in the forest, the pig was gone before the arrow got there.

Heavy, silent,.... a bit slower, is a winning combination in my book !!

That is VERY correct about quiet being better than fast. There is NO bow that comes close to shooting an arrow the speed of sound, so I will take quiet(Heavy) every time. Don't worry about which arrow will go through a shoulder blade, if you are hitting the shoulder blade, your arrow wasn't in the right spot anyway. Check out some good cutaway photos, the shoulder blade is WAY higher and farther forward than most people think. I was in Africa a couple years ago and my young PH kept trying to talk me into shooting a blue wildebeest, I told him I had NO intention of shooting one, since I think they are kind of ugly and for the $800 trophy, there were several other species that I DID want. Well he persisted FOR DAYS, finally, I said "Chris, why do you want me to shoot a wildebeest?", he said, "Rick, I've had FIVE bowhunters shoot one before you and we didn't recover ANY of them" so now I'm thinking I REALLY don't want to shoot an $800 dollar animal that nobody recovers. Well he sorta put me into the position where I HAD to shoot one and I thought to myself, I'm not taking ANY chances I'm going for a heart shot! That arrow was nearly perfect, right in the triangle, I thought "YES", Chris said, "don't worry, we MIGHT find it!" We did, it ran about a 100 yards and died from a 700 grain arrow through the heart. I asked Chris after why he was so down when I shot it, he said,"ALL FIVE BOWHUNTERS before you were shooting HEAVY compounds, but LIGHT 350-400 grain arrows and ALL of them got this much(he held his thumb and forefinger about 4 inches apart) penetration in the same spot that you shot all the way through! He talked about 700 grain arrows being the ticket every day after that!

Rick,

You are right about the shoulder blade being the wrong place.  I know that.  I also know first hand, that sometimes things happen that can't be avoided and are'nt the result of a bad shot or bad shot selection.  I shot a doe in the head once.  She decided to put her head in the path of the arrow right as I released.  It did'nt turn out well.  Deer can go a long way with an arrow sticking from their head.

I also agree with you and the others who feel that a quiet bow is important.  There is no doubt in my mind you are in a world of trouble beyond 12 or so yards with a noisy bow.  You might as well guess where the deer will be when the arrow gets there and shoot for that spot.

Something that has'nt been discussed in this thread and often is not discussed is the energy the arrow has at longer ranges.  Its gonna hit a lot harder at 8yds than it will at 25yds.  Another discussion in itself I guess.

Life is full of trade-offs and compromises.  So it is with traditional bowhunting.  I have traded draw weight for an ability to shoot better.  This debate (for me) is about trading arrow weight for a little more effective range.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not talking about unethically chunking arrows at deer on the horizon.  If anything, I am probably too conservative with my shot selection.  I guess in the end, we all have to choose the setup that will make us the most ethical and best  bowhunters we can be.  Used in the right way, they will probably all work just fine.

 :thumbsup:

personally, I like my arrows to stick at least 6" into the dirt on the other side of the animal. Any less than that and you risk having the shaft fall over and getting dirt and leaves mixed with the blood on your fletch and it's a pain to wash out....

Is it hunting season yet??  :)

This is one of those threads that I usually read thru and then go on to another subject.

 But what the heck,,I'm gonna throw in my .02 worth this time. I think it is VERY simple, I have always shot the heaviest draw weight & arrow combination that I could shoot comfortably & accurately period. Notice all the "I's" in that statement? That's because it is what works for ME and me only. I'm the only one that knows what gives me confidence enough to release an arrow at an animal no matter what size of critter it is.

   Only YOU can determine your confidence range and set-up. Don't convince yourself you have to shoot "this or that" because Joe Blow who kills all the big bucks/bulls shoots it. Or because John Doe uses this combination or that to win all the archery shoots.

   Use the combination that YOU can pick up and shoot with confidence in any hunting situation and know YOUR limitations with it. The size and type of animal you are hunting should only determine what shot placement/angle you should attempt(my opinion). YOU are the one taking the shot,,only you know what combination of arrow & bow weight works best for you.

   Opinions from others are great learning tools and should be welcomed. But remember,,you are the one releasing the bowstring, do so with confidence in yourself and you will fill alot more tags.

   OK,,I'm off the soap box now! Who's stepp'n up next?

Been away for a few days.  JC, thanks for the correction.  I meant grains per pound...not inch.

QuoteLighter arrows are more forgiving, therefore more accurate when a distance judgment error occurs.  

Just to clarify.......

Lighter arrows may be more forgiving of distance judgement error, at least on longer shots.  Lighter arrows are less forgiving of wind, deflection (that little twig you didn't see), etc.  Lighter arrows won't help you a bit if you goof on windage, and a small goof will show up more on a longer shot.

Honestly I'm not convinced they are all that forgiving of distance even, based on an experience earlier this year.  I was shooting in a tournament with a fellow I know is a very good shot, but some of the targets were beyond his comfort zone and he hadn't been practicing at those ranges.  They weren't 50 yard shots, just a bit further than he was used to.  He was shooting a fast bow and very light arrows, and shot low on all but maybe one of these targets (when I shot the course with him).  

It boils down to personal preferance and what you are confident in, at least on animals like whitetail that aren't that hard to penetrate.  

I don't shoot super heavy or super light--my arrows naturally fall into around 9-10 grains per lb. without any tinkering.  Works for me.

Chad

Is this thread still breathing , haha ???

If you are reading this see page 1 the last two posts, nuff said !!!

Greg, let's talk about how to keep Mason from wanting a Adcock after he shoots yours at Tannehill ?   :biglaugh:  

nocams

Well I came up with something a few years ago as a "guideline" take your draw weight, divide it by 10, then double the remainder and that is approximately the best grain weight per pound of draw for that bow. e.g. 40#/10 = 4 x 2 = 8 GPP 70# /10 = 7 x 2 = 14 GPP
as I say this was just a guideline or rule of thumb. It has worked well for me as a starting point.

I will add however that I am a recent convert to front loaded carbons. I shoot arrows with what most would consider whacked out F.O.C.
Right now I am shooting approximately 400 grains in the point end of 3555 Gold tips with great arrow flight with a 60ish pound d/r longbow.total arrow weight is around 700 grains. I am reasonably sure that will shoot through anything I do my part in hitting the sweet spot.

QuoteOriginally posted by wapiti792:

What flies best are 500gr carbons, and I use it on deer sized and smaller game. It has blown through the last 3 whitetails I have taken including a 300# buck last December. I am very tempted to hunt elk with those carbons but the whole heavy arrow debate bothers me. Any thoughts?  

Any thoughts? Yeah...

I've got a freezer full of moose, compliments of a 520-grain carbon arrow going 194 fps with a cut-on-impact 2-blade head. In one side, through both lungs, split a rib vertically on exit and flew off into the bush. It took me longer to find the arrow than the moose. Your 67# recurve should have just as much "oomph" as my setup had last September in Ontario. Fire up the grill.

Assuming those 500 grain arrows are safe to shoot out of your 67# recurve (and I can't answer that for you), I don't see a problem.