Since I am now shooting a lighter weight bow because of my back ... 46# @ 28 drawing 29".... I have a question about broadheads...
My preferred BH when they still made was the Hunter Head.. fortunately I still have enough for hunting seasons...
But I was looking at the ads in the catalogs (very dangerous... not recommended if wife is present) and was looking at the Woodsman heads... back in the old days I was never a fan of three blade heads...
But I have heard all kinds of wonder stories about these heads and have read they penetrate as slick as a 2 blade head and obviously leave a bigger hole...
OK, the question 1 is... do they penetrate as well as a two blade head in a bow the weight I am shooting (obviously they will be razor sharp like my 2 blades) or do they really need a heavier bow... most of the stories I read are with guys shooting 60# bows on bigger game than the white tails I will be after here on the farm...
Question 2.. do they fly as true and how do you align them when you set them up.
Either as long as your arrow is tuned and head is razor sharp.jonesy
The only thing that penetrates as well as a 2-blade head is a 2-blade head.
That's not true
Go Woodsman all the way !!!!! The people who dont shoot them are scared or just cant sharpen them .
Can we compromise? Snuffers!!! :bigsmyl:
Used both and I prefer a 2 blade,just my personal preference.Just as jonesy said ,either one will work with proper tuning and sharpening.
KPaul
I personally favor sharp two blades for maximum penetration in low poundage set-ups. Having said that, the WW has killed a lot of critters (even a few for me). The only thing I don't like about the head is the tendency for the tip to curl. If you try them, just snip the tip off and get the head super sharp. Assuming you don't hit bone, you should have no problem with penetration on most thin skinned game.
Claudia
I use both. I think the WW are little more tempermental as far as good flight goes. I think they penetrate well, but as good as a 2 blade? I don't think they will match the 2 blades exactly in penetration.
In my experience - which is 3 or 4 deer and 2 hogs killed with the WW - they penetrate very well, definitely comparable to a two blade. I even shot one through the shoulder blade of a deer and it dropped the doe immediately - at which point I shot her again for insurance. But, for me, I was disappointed with the blood trails on all but one of my chest hit animals.
If the shot is in right spot, it makes no difference. I feel shot placement is more the factor...JMHO. Just like the rest of you, I've had great & poor penetration with 2 blades & 3 blades pending where it hit.
Complete pass thru with sharp stone head from 50# selfbow on a mature boar black bear...Doc
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/1st%20Annual%20Quebec%20Bear%20Quest/QuebecBearQuest07046.jpg)
I believe the Woodsman is the best penetrating 3 blade around, but it still will not match a 2 blade in penetration. Since you're drawing nearly 50 at 29 you'd be just fine for deer and hogs with a Woodsman IMO.
I shot my 155 grain woodsmans and my Ace 160 2 blades hundreds of times into the same targets and measured each shaft before removing from target. There was no clear winner in which one penetrated the best. One time the WW would win and the next the 2 blade would win. Try it for yourself. I shoot 55@27.5.
Rob
I don't believe you will have any problems on whitetails with that setup.
Overall, I thought Dr. Ashby's tests settled the great penetration debate.
I agree with SlowBowinMo, you're drawing 50@29", that's a lot of energy and you'll be just fine.
I shot a doe last year with a Woodsman on a lam birch shaft (625 gr total) from a 44@29 yew longbow and the head completely penetrated the deer. I recovered the deer.
Jason
my hunting bow is 46#@28"s and I get great results from the 3-blade heads.
QuoteOriginally posted by SlowBowinMO:
I believe the Woodsman is the best penetrating 3 blade around, but it still will not match a 2 blade in penetration.
That's been my experience as well. They're a decent design, but definately don't yield as much penetration as the 2-blade heads I've used.
Ahhh, the great debate. I've seen the WW pass completely through an elk out of a 55 lb longbow and a 2 blade head not make it two inches into the side of a whitetail with the same poundage. Where were "the results" for me on that one? Who knows? The problem is there are so many other factors to consider than simply arrow penetration (if penetration was the only factor, why don't we all hunt with field points?).
To answer your questions oldgriz:
1. I think one thing we all will agree on is that a well-placed shot with a razor-sharp cut on contact broadhead will kill a deer with your new setup. In my opinion, whether that broadhead has 2 or 3 blades won't make a difference.
2. I have had exceptional flight with the WW, and really paid no attention to alignment with fletching (as long as they spun true).
I hope this is helpful.
-Vig
Both will work. I like the way 2 blade heads penetrate, but Ive had some pretty thin blood trails with them even after perfect hits. Woodsman heads usually give better blood trails, but dont penetrate as well in my experience.
I would definintely go with the woodsmans. I shot 2 blade magnus heads for years and they performed fine, but in my experiences, they don't knock em down and bleed em out as quickly as the woodsmans do. Personally, I would never shoot a 2 blade head again.
BD
2 blade
I thought I might share these pictures... the fact that it is a 3-blade versus 2-blade is irrelevant on these shots but I couldn't miss the opportunity to share. First from '05, second from '06. Notice that when I do use a WW, I like to chisel the point. It prevents the tip curl often heard of.
-Vig
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa42/Grizzlybowscommon/12-22-2005-06.jpg)
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa42/Grizzlybowscommon/100_0503.jpg)
Here we go again. The anectdotal evidence will always be inconclusive. Everybody will have a different story. Resistance alone, it is hard to imagine that the Wensel Woodsman will out penetrate a narrow design 2 blade, but it might out penentrate a very wide 2 blade. All that said the WW is a great head. It should be excellent on all but the very largest game, and some of the guys here have even used it on really big game. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything on this continent.
That brings us to the next debate....sharp tip or chisel tip. After some bad results with turning tips I am strongly in the chisel tip camp, but there are many knowledgeable folks (read in Biggie, Gene, Barry) who still swear by the sharp tips. Brady
"Go Woodsman all the way !!!!! The people who dont shoot them are scared or just cant sharpen them ."
Well, you are 1/2 right. I can't sharpen them as sharp as my 2 blade Magnus, and i have never seen one sharp enough, in my opinion.
WW are a duable, well built head. But the blasde angles are to shallow for me.
wow...great spelling Roger.
Roger,
I'm confident that if you saw how sharp I get them, you'd approve. They pop hair easily. I use a file, an Arkansas stone, and a leather strop. I think they'll leave great blood trails most times, and I hope they'll always leave 'followable' ones with the sharpness I get them to. That being said I think I prefer the Razorcaps. I believe I can get them just a little sharper (EVERY BIT as sharp as a 2blade) and they're a little bigger. Much EASIER to sharpen than the Woodsman too. I'm going to test them and see if one significantly outpenetrates the other. Check them out. I'm shooting 53#@29.5" with 495gr. arrows and using them for elk, so I doubt you'll have any problems with deer. God bless,
Craig
I agree with Roger and a few others. I just can't get the 3 blades as sharp as I can a 2 blade, not even close.. For me that settles the issue, I'll use a good two blade head like a Zwickey, Magnus or Eclipse and never look back.
No trouble with a Wensel or Snuffer...take some time to learn and the process is pretty easy...stone/file, ceramic, leather, get all edges the same...I am serious about sharp. My Snuffer/WW will easily shave hair clean...not chop off, cleanly shave hair.
I've noticed just the opposite in regards to sharpening. I have found the WW to be some of the easiest to sharpen. Just lay them down flat on a steel file, then a diamond stone or ceramic, and lastly a piece of leather. That's about as easy as they come, and they will shave like a straight razor.
I must surely be missing something when it comes to sharpening the WW heads.. I messed with them last year quite a bit.. Used a new 14" file, laid the heads flat and established the bevel all the way around. Then used everything I could think of from stones, to flat diamond plates, fine grit sandpaper and leather.. Even with all those trials I never was satisfied with the edge.
I don't doubt it can be done, I just don't seem to have the knack.. And I'm actually quite good at sharpening almost anything....
I had the same question. After shooting 2 deer with 150gr snuffers an watching them run off with better than 1/2 my arrow sticking out.Yes they were sharp an it was a good shot.An yes i found the deer.But i wanted my head sticking in the ground on the outher side. So i got some WW traded around an got some razercaps.an i had a few zwickey an simmons tiger sharks.So i took a box filled it full of very wet news papers 4" then a space of 10" then a 3"box filled with that spray foam then 5" then the ground.
I shot all heads same bow same arrow at 20yds.
The 3 blades stuck throw the box with wet paper about 1/16" just the tips. the 2 blades went throw every thing an were in the dirt. I did this as fair as i could because i want the best penetration i can get.Hope this helps
I truly prefer 3 blades over 2 blades. I feel that most failures bowhunters claim of 3 blade heads are due to one or more of the following:
1) Sharpness - a 3 blade can most definitely be sharpened as sharp as any 2 blade. Take the time and patience to learn the method and hairs will literally pop off your arm, cut a rubber band, dig into your thumbnail, etc.
2) Arrow tuning - the arrow must be perfectly tuned to your bow to allow all of the bow/arrow energy to be transferred into penetration.
3) Shot placement - No broadhead design shot from average bow weight will correct for inadequate shot placement. Place your arrow well and 2 or 3 blade will do the job, but blood trails will be better with the 3 blade.
4) Adequate arrow weight - Arrows should weigh between 8 and 12 grains per pound out of bows of legal hunting weight. The lower end for higher poundages, the upper end for lower poundages.
Myself and friends have used 3 blade broadheads, including the 160 Snuffer, to take medium sized game such as deer, bear, and antelope with complete pass throughs with bows between 50 and 60 pounds. Medium sized game is the norm for hunters across North America. Arrows sticking in the dirt or wood beyond the prey are the norm, not the exception when taking into account the points above.
Scott... a voice of reason. :clapper:
I have a question for those people that have said no 3 blade will penetrate as well as a 2 blade.
If two arrows shot into two animals of comparable size, one with a two blade and the other with a 3 blade both pass completely through the animal which one penetrated better?
I can tell you which one will have a shorter blood trail to follow pert near every time. The 3 blade will.The blood trail from a three blade will be both shorter and easier to see in most cases. The Snuffer and the Woodsman are two of the most lethal broadheads ever designed. I'd say you need to shoot at lest 60# to use a Snuffer but I'd shoot a Woodsman out of a 40# bow at any critter I would pursue with that much weight. Especially if it was on a front loaded carbon weighing 12 grains per.
If a stone age knapper had figured out how to "pull" a 3 blade head from the stone This debate......would still be going on. :bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by C2:
I have a question for those people that have said no 3 blade will penetrate as well as a 2 blade.
If two arrows shot into two animals of comparable size, one with a two blade and the other with a 3 blade both pass completely through the animal which one penetrated better?
Fair enough, but that assumes both broadheads
will end up in the dirt. On quarry the size of whitetails, it's mostly a moot point. I like to hunt bigger things though.
QuoteI can tell you which one will have a shorter blood trail to follow pert near every time. The 3 blade will.The blood trail from a three blade will be both shorter and easier to see in most cases.
I would beg to differ. Honestly, I've killed a lot of deer with 2- and 3-blade heads and have yet to see any difference in bloodtrails (either distance or amount of blood) between the two.
Going back to penetration; regrettably, I've had a number of accidental spine shots over the years. Animals weren't quite quick enough ducking the string or I just goofed up. I've hit more than a few off-side shoulders too. Either way, every time I had such a hit with a 3-blade head I ended up having to dig it out of the bone. The 2-blade heads just passed right on through.
I'm not saying 3-blade heads aren't a good choice. Far from it. They were the only type of head my grandfather would use, and they served him very well. Lord knows I've put more than my share of deer in the freezer with them too. But while I'm sure they may be some exceptions out there, it's been my experience that they simply don't yield the penetration 2-blade heads do.
In the end though, use what you can get the best edge on and you have the most confidence in. Life would sure be boring if we all liked the same things.
The experiences I have had are similar to Jason's in terms of the effectiveness of two blades on marginal or even rib hits. While I taken plenty of critters with three blades over the years, I have discovered that when I have hit ribs or spine, the two blade seems to penetrate much deeper. This may be less of an issue with bows that are 55# +, but considering I shoot bows that are 47# and less at 27", small differences can become significant in terms of performance.
Of course, as has been mentioned previously, there are plenty of other factors that also effect penetration and I pay attention to them all...high FOC, reasonably heavy arrow, super sharp head, limited shot distance, and shot placement. While the latter factor may not always be completely in control of the archer, each of the former factors are. By incorporating them all into my bowhunting recipe, I maximize my opportunities for a quick, clean kill...and from a hunter's perspective, that's what it's really all about.
Claudia
I want my arrow to have the best chance at a complete pass thru. I want it at the site of a hit for inspection. I hunt mostly from a treestand
and I want a "drain hole" on the low, exit side of a hit.
I also believe a deer can sense or see a shaft protruding from its body, and this could cause a deer to run farther before stopping, as it is trying to get away from the arrow. Many of us have seen an arrow pass thru, and the deer simply jumps a few times, stops and goes down. I have never seen an arrow stick hard, and have the deer stop after just a few bounds. When the arrow sticks hard, they run till they drop. With larger game such as moose or elk, this does not seem to be a factor. But with spooky whitetails it is.
Two edge heads give me the best chance to have the arrow in my hand after a shot. If a deer does
make it out of sight and out of hearing, having the arrow to tell you where the animal is hit is
in my opinion very important as to what to do next.
I agree that with your set-up (50# at your draw weight) either head will be fine.
But help me with this...
I recently gave a 46# @ 28" Wing Slimline to my brother-in-law and am planning to take him hog hunting in a few weeks. He only pulls 27", so let's use 43#s as our number...now would you WW fans still shoot 'a 3-blade' head on hogs from that set-up?
I am leaning toward a 2-blade for his bow but do have a dozen Snuffers that I could give him to use...I recently switched back to the Land Shark 160s for my own use. ;)
(assume that bow/arrows are well-tuned, razor sharp heads, proper arrow mass for draw weight, etc...)
For hogs and light weight bows I pick the two blade but want a big one.Hogs don't usually go far with a good hit but the hair sucks up blood and the hole closes up fast.For that reason I want two big holes and it is just easier to get with a big two blade than with any three blade out of lighter bows. jmo
BTW..I will be useing a 42@28 bow this year and will have Simmons on the front of the arrows.I only draw about 27" and expect no problems on deer or the hogs.
I'm tempted to say that I think a lot of us (especially those new to trad ranks) lack confidence in recurves and longbows in the power department.
Maybe that's because so many come from compound ranks with super high speeds and accurate aiming and the like.
I really do think it's much ado about nothing and wasted breath for the most part.
Make it sharp and shoot it straight,regardless of blade shape or number, then smile for the camera. :thumbsup:
I agree Charlie.After hunting with compounds for 20 years it was only after a few years with stickbows that I realized just how deadly a sharp arrow can be out of any weight bow.As long as it is flying straight with something sharp on the front our only concern should be hitting the mark.All the other stuff will take care of itself if we do our part. :) jmo
I kept track one year at our lease in Florida.
26 hogs shot with two blades=12 recovered.
38 shot with 3 blade=32 recovered.
Even with all the variables, shot placement, penetration etc...those stats say it all for me.
I have shot WWs and they flew very well for me. I simply like the ease of sharpening with the 2 blade heads, their traditional look, and they simply penetrate better than any 3 blade head. Read Dr. Ashby's studies.
Dan
.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
I'm tempted to say that I think a lot of us (especially those new to trad ranks) lack confidence in recurves and longbows in the power department.
Maybe that's because so many come from compound ranks with super high speeds and accurate aiming and the like.
I really do think it's much ado about nothing and wasted breath for the most part.
Make it sharp and shoot it straight,regardless of blade shape or number, then smile for the camera. :thumbsup:
I have to agree with your there, Charlie. Just last night I was talking with a guy at the archery club about moose hunting. He asked me how close I have to get with my recurve for it to be able to kill a moose. I told him the question was how close do I have to get to put the arrow where I want, not at what point my bow lacks sufficient energy.
Final answer is your arrow will be sticking in the dirt more with a 2 blade at 40-50-# bow weight. You also will not have as big a hole in the bottom of the off side chest. So pick your poison, so to speak. A really wide 2 blade may be your answer. Zephyr makes one. I shot 16 deer last year with WW and zwickey's (not the real wide ones). I always got a better blood trail with the ww and always got equal and better penetration with the 2 blades. I had one a few years ago I shot with an average width 2 blade through the heart from a tree stand in the snow (came out between the front legs) and had zero blood. Found her 90 yards. 3 blades just open a bigger hole.
Have fun.
I perfer 160 grain Snuffers to anything, but I really like the 150 grain Simmons Tiger Sharks, also. Out of my setup either will do just fine.
I will agree that most of the time there will be more blood on the ground with a 3 blade, especially with a Snuffer, but if you are not getting enough blood with your 2 blade, try a wider one.
You open something up with a 2 blade Simmons Tiger Shark or the big 2 blade Tree Shark, believe me, you will have some blood. :scared: :eek:
Mike