I am still on my mission to find my next bow, one that has been thought out properly and well designed.
As I have said before getting a bow down to Auss is a very expensive mission. I had a friend who recently bought a B/W T/D longbow PLll and with the exchange rate, customs and duty into Australia it cost him 1,900 AUD. That gives you an idea of the extra it costs. I want to do my homework thoroughly this time and nail that baby good and proper.
There are many so/so bows out there and unfortunately I own a plethora of them. There are probably only a handful of bowyers who stand head and shoulders above the others. Come on lads - spill the beans!!
I am no Rhode Island scholar - but it makes sense to me that the flat limb design is not very efficient.
If one takes a venetian blind blade (not sure if you have them in the USA - a window blind with many thin blades that open and close) and bend that blade slightly in the middle to make a concave/convex shape - one can hold it out horizontally and it will stay that way unsupported. Make it flat and see how long it will stay horizontal! In other words the concave/convex shape adds a lot of 'stiffness' into the blade - without having to increase its thickness.
Most of bows that folk rave about on this thread - have this inefficient design!!
My Martin Vision is a nice old bow but when I look at those humungous limb tips - it is amazing that it doesn't shoot like a dog!
I think OL nailed it when one looks at a cross-section of his limb!! This thread may have been discussed before and sorry if I am repeating with this question. However I am not being flippant - I am deadly serious. I need help to nail the best limb design - I have wasted a small fortune already!
Please don't crucify me for starting a ...stirring contest - that is not my aim. I only want constuctive advice for the best bow design out there, and I will buy it!
As you all know I can't order an OL - so who else makes a bow with this very efficient limb design? My sources tell me that Habu and Centaur may be on the money - are there any others?? I am just not so sure I like this very flat-bow look!!
Tell me and I'll reach for my cheque book!#^!!
A frustrated Sutto!!
Sorry - I read my thread and it sounds a bit ambiguous! I am saying that the flat limb design that most bows have is not good - I want a bow with the convex/concave shaped limbs (can't remember the proper term for that) - one like the shape that OL makes!
sutto
The only bow with O.L.'s limb is an Adcock or A&H. It is a patened design. You can order an A&H, go to their website and get on the list. O.L. is not currently taking orders.
That being said, there are a lot of great longbows out there that are on par with the ACS, IMO. Black Swan and Border being two of them.
Danny
A&H makes the ACS (Adcock) limb but I think there is quite a waiting list for them ('bout a year and a half is what I'm hearing). Other than that I'm not sure if anyone else makes a limb like Adcocks - he has a patent on it.
As far as I'm aware, OL & A&H are the only folks that use the convex limb design, mate.
I know it's all subjective & down to personal taste & I'm sure just about everyone will post their own 'personal' favourites, but from all the bows I've shot, by far & away the nicest (& by nicest I mean fastest/smoothest) would be Mark Horne's Combo longbow. To my mind (and no, I don't have chrono figures to back it up) it seemed just as fast as Adcocks I've shot in around the same weight range. If there is a difference, it can only be few FPS. I shot his 49# bow in Texas this year & it vastly, almost embarrasingly outshot my 58# Pronghorn T/D.
Again, it ain't the cheapest of bows ($1150 if I remember rightly) for the carbon/bamboo cored limbs, but it's also excellent value compared to an Adcock & there's no 3-5 year wait.
Hey robtatto - I already have one of those babies.
It is called a Horne's three piece Combo Hunter longbow. It is Purple heart and Osage 40# @ 28" 64" long. I have said on here before that it is a great little bow - very well made. However I shoot high/wrist - the gip is all wrong.
I am just getting the timber together now and am about to attack it with the spindle moulder. I will probably blow my warranty to 'kingdom come'. However I will cut the grip section out -glue in a whole new piece of timber - then shape a new grip to my hand. Then it will be a good bow.
However it still has flat limbs. I can't go to shows like you folks can in the States and shoot twenty bows in a day to find the best. I have to buy them first to shoot them - we have nothing like that in Australia. So these stupid questions I ask are the equivalent of my day at the show!#%&^!
Sutto
suttoman you partially solved your puzzle.If you like your Horne's combo hunter but need a high wrist grip have you tried one of their Brushbows?It comes in 58",60,and 62"s.Great bow. If you go on their web site you can take a look at them.They do have a few in stock.
Oh and if you still don't like that grip Rivers Edge's Vortex comes with a high grip if you so desire. The folks here have nothing but good things to say about those bows also.My favorite bow is my Turkey Creek but the grip would be all wrong for you unless Doug will custom make a grip for you .This is MY favorite longbow out there period.
Thanks 'Bentpole' - what is the their website - I did a search and came up empty?
Are you going to buy a Horne's?
Sutto
oops sorry Bentpole - it really must be time for me to go to bed - that was Robtatto with the Hornes comment!
Sutto
I've been shooting Habu's for the past 8 years.As far as speed I've gotten out of the who's the fastest.The Vyperkahn I have 59lbs @27'' shoots a 670gr arro 168fps.If you go w/ Chris's bow you most get a Rod Jenkins string.Made a big difference in both speed and quietness.
The only down fall I see w/ a Habu for you.Is you like a high grip.The 2 Vyperkahn's I have have a medium to low grip IMO. when compared to a Dye or Blacktail.
Thanks Overbo - I enjoyed and agreed with your comments.
I have a T/G 'friend' on here I correspond with regularly and he is a big Habu fan. His whispering in my ear is starting to take its toll - LOL. I actually succumbed this morning and tried to ring Chris.
American Geography wasn't my best subject at school - I couldn't work out which State ID was to find the time diff to call. I got the answer machine so it may have been some unearthly hour or something in America. I will phone back Monday.
The only thing that puts me off is that I am told his wait is 18 months. I have looked at the grips on his bow and they look pretty good - as far as one can tell from a pic.
That's the trouble living so far away from the action. I can't shoot any of these bows first. I have to fork out huge fistfulls of dough, grit my teeth and hope for the best - lol
Sutto
Habu has a Death Adder in stock that may fit your needs.
Danny
thanks Danny - I will have a look!
Sutto
Way too heavy Danny - it's 58# - I need 40#!
Sutto
I've got a Horne Combo Longbow on order, as we speak (type!) I know how you feel though, it's the same for us in England. We've got a really limited choice here, with hunting being illegal & therefore no shows at all! All the guys on the 3D/field circuit seem to shoot the same 2 or 3 bows & all atlow poundages, so not much help there. I've been through exactly the same thing you're going through, buying up bows left,right & centre trying to find 'The One' I've now had 26 bows pass through my hands in the last 2 years & found the Horne to be the best of the bunch, although I do prefer the low grip which made it a lot easier!
first,OL design is state of the art. period
that does not mean a flat limp does make a slow bow.
there are way more factors that a fast bow needs.
deflex/reflex and where in the bow they are.
which part of the limp bends at what state of the drawing.
preload is a big factor.
without a good preload the stored energy will most probably be low and therefor the bow a bad performer.
low mass limps.
a bow with wide tips can never be a fast bow.
limp lenght is a major key too.
choose/make a bow just as long as it is needed.
every inch to long will slow down the bow.
46@30" is all i need to pass 195fps with a 500 grain arrow.
shantam
Sutto,
Chris's bows have alot of mass weight.Another thing to take in.
Yes 18 months is a long wait for a bow you've never shot.I will say this.Everyone one that has shot my VK thought it was several pounds lighter.I have a set of 62'' limbs that are 50lbs @28'' that feel like other bowyer's 40lbs limbs and for 50lbs they move an arro.
I am sorry but there is no bow you can put a tag on as the best. :) It will only be best for the guy shooting it and even then it is only a temperary condition before he has another "best" bow.You either enjoy the never ending search or you just learn to love the one you got. :)
Pretty much agree with James Wrenn, but if you HAVE to have a state-of-the-art bow, look at Black Swan bows.
Black Swan Archery (http://www.blackswanarchery.com/)
Also, the opening video is amazing!
By all accounts, they are excellent performers, with exceptional shooting characteristics.
Additionally, it is offered in different grip configurations.
Something to consider.
Have you looked at Fedora's Xtreme 3-ptd hybrid. Very smooth and forgiving and I believe one of the quickest bows made. Mike Fedora will make you anything you want as far as grip shape, materials, wood ect.
hey Waterone...that is a very cool opening video indeed :help:
Man I'd feel like a child that enters a toys'r'us for the first time. Should defenately put a limit on my credit card before I go :)
Suttoman, I Hope you find that one bow!
From what I understand, due to old injuries he uses a thumb tab that wraps around the string and is pinched between his thumb and forefinger.
I got this information from a reliable source on another site. I also found out that he holds the record for the most RobinHoods in 24 hours, 347!
Get on the list for an A&H bow.You won't be satisfied untill you get one because you will always wonder if it is better.
Hey thanks so much guys - I am really enjoying this - and so informative. Thanks too - no vitriolic comments - I didn't want this to denigrate into a slinging match - it is nice to just discuss the pros and cons - well done.
I have just crawled out of bed - it is very early in Aussie. I will read these again and make some comments.
R H Clark - could you please give me the website address for A&H - I tried to find with a search but nothing doing.
Thanks Robtattoo for understanding. Unless you live in another country and have to pay a fortune for every bow before one can shoot it - it is hard to explain what that is like. Very expensive and frustrating. Please let me know what you think of the Horne's and more importantly - Mark's customer service!!??
However I think the 'Pofesser' amongst us all is James Wrenn - I think unless we are satisfied - within reason - the search would go on forever and we would never find that perfect bow. Well said James!!
Sutto
QuoteI am sorry but there is no bow you can put a tag on as the best.
James nailed it. The bow that is "best" for one person may be quite dissapointing for someone else. I used to chase around and try to shoot all the "best" bows I read about (in magazines, on message boards, etc.--it changed on a regular basis). A few of them were great shooters to me, most were very dissapointing. Not that they were bad bows (not all of them anyway), but after all the hype you'd expect something almost supernatural.
A fellow that is famous for his part in the archery industry once told me "among the better bows, there's not a nickles worth of difference where it counts". That's not an exact quote, but close--and I agree. Some grips may feel better, some may be a little faster, some may be quieter, but when you get right down to it the same thing I've said for years still applies--there ain't no magic bow.
Another thing to consider--if there was one bow that was head and shoulders above all the rest, then that bow would be the only one selling and/or everyone else would be copying it, else they would be out of business. Not to mention all the top archers would be shooting that same bow.
Finally, take an archer that knows what he is doing and give him a selfbow scratched out with a rock and a boar's tooth, and he'll outshoot the novice with the latest whiz-bang $10,000 "wonder stick". Forgiveness is in design, but accuracy is in the shooter.
In other words Sutto, I think you are making it a lot harder than it really is! :knothead: Get a bow that fits and feels good in your hand, tune it, and practice--you will do just fine.
Chad
Thanks Chad - Well said and some very mature intelligent thinking in there!
Perhaps I'll wait until I get my Horne's fixed up. Other than the grip - out of all of my bows that is the one I like the best. Perhaps with the grip it will become my go-to-bow!
Sutto
Here is the website...it is in the Sponsor list up top so I hope it is OK to post the link here also. Good luck. As for Mark and Sandy Horne's customer service, I have NEVER heard a negative comment. That said, I haven't dealt with them but based on their reputation, I would not hesitate at all.
http://www.acsbows.com/index.html
Have ya ever shot a JD Berry?
No 'Kingstaken' - I have never shot a JD Berry before. 90% of all archery in Auss are compounds - you see very few trad bows around. If I don't own it then I aint shot it!!
Why - what are they like?
Sutto
Suttoman........Sherrinsky Challenger T/D 68" Longbow 95'-97'.. Only 6 were made...AMO ( 540gr@30"@60#)..215-220fps.........I own one and shot competitively with it in mid 90's...black glass/carbon/maple cores..He was way ahead of his times..if you can find one...it is the finest
You know, it's funny.
My favorite bow today will be put aside, next week for another favorite.
I like to keep several. One week it'll be be a fast, high performer, and next I'll take out and old style longbow and have a blast!
Have fun and keep as many as you can afford.
And if you buy used you won't loose too much.
If something comes up, they are as good as money in the bank; with the outlets we have for selling online.
Suttoman While having no experience with Hornes I have shot acs's and A&H as well as the Black swan and I do think the ACS and the A&H is one of the best bows out there the reason I don't have one is the year and a half wait. The black swan is another excellent choice but it like almost all the others is a flat limbed bow but the limbs are very thin and narrow another bow that has thin and narrow limbs and achieves excellent speed is the Cari-bow Silver Fox or Perigrine ( the Siver Fox is a 3pc the perigrine is one or two pc) but like all these bows they are expensive and you may find a little different to shoot at first because the wieght starts early in the draw but they are all smooth and fast. My Silver Fox gets 189fps with a 450gr wood arrow at 49# and thats plenty fast for me. Also ther is a Cari-bow Perigrine in the classifieds right now so may be used might be a way to save yourself some money Delin
Suttoman,
I am no expert by anymeans, but I have a Cari-Bow Silver Fox and a Crow Creek Blackfeather that are two of my favoites. Both are smooth and fast. I would be hard pressed to pick one over the other. I do not know if they offer different wrist designs so can not help you there.
My brother has an O.L. bow and I have shot it and fell in love, But as said before almost impossible to find. I own 7 bows now and will probably never stop trying new ones.LOL that is the fun of it, and that can get expensive. Luckily I have a forgiving wife. :bigsmyl:
Donald
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are out of luck with this question. Off hand, thinking of 10 guys that I shoot with including myself, (some of us shoot longbows and some of us recurves) we all have one thing in common. Each of us will argue with the others that our bow is the "best", and none of us shoot the same bow. We are shooting a DAS, Hoyt(winn limbs), ACS-CX, Osage self bow, Hill, Predator, Turkey Creek, Black Widow, Navaho, & Hoyt Gamemaster II. We all have different ideas of what is "best".
Like stated above I'm no expert either, I've tried many different bows and like most of them but IMHO if you stick to one bow or one style of bow you can become a better shooter with it. Right now the best longbow for me is the Howard Hill........stabow
You know ... 99.9% of folks are shooting that "inefficient" limb design.
Sounds like you really want an A&H / Adcock bow, so pony up the bucks and get on the list. Don't be surprised however, if you get a case of "buyers remorse". Not because they aren't good bows (I assume they are, I've never shot one), but because it probably won't turn you into Robin Hood, Howard Hill or Byron Ferguson.
Anything over 175fps set to hunt looks plenty fast to me. The trick is to find something that suits you and your hunting/shooting style and give it a chance.
But ... the grass is always greener. And frankly I love picking up good deals from folks perpetually searching for a "magic" bow.
Horne's Archery makes some really nice longbows. I don't think you can go wrong with the Traditionalist or Brushbow.
Bill
I didn't read every single post so this has probably been said...
Whats "best" for me may well not be "best" for you or the next guy.Is there any chance you could try some of these first??I know that your not from here it's just a thought.
I went to Denton hill with no $$ so I wouldn,t buy the first thing that tickled my fancy.I really liked the Horne's combo hunter and thought it was gonna be the one untill I shot a hummingbird.Even went back and got the Horne's bow and the hummingbird so I could shoot them side by side.Again thats me it may be differnt for you.
I also really like the Dakota by Bob Morrison,Centuar is an awesome bow too at least I liked it.Shrew bows are excellent, the grip may be closer to what ya want but it's still a LB type grip,maybe not straight like the Hill style but not a recurve grip either which sounds like what your lookin for.
Good luck I hope ya find the one your lookin for and enjoy the process while your at it
The best longbow or anybow that an individual owns, is the one that shoots the best for him/her emphasis on the individual.
I think Philil hinted at the answer... Save up and buy a plane ticket to the next big show/shoot in the States (or plan a hunt and visit several shops). It's got to be cheaper in the long run than buying 2-3 wrong bows. (that $1,900 you mentioned, should cover a round-trip ticket) You'd get to shoot a lot of nice bows and meet a lot of great people.
OL, makes that limbs design but he was not the inventor or the orginal desin guy on it. It has been around a while and OL just perfected it and patented it. John Fazio and I believe striker bows also uses a variation of that trapezoidal limb design and several others. That said, I believe ya cannot go wrong with Vortex from Rivers Edge or ya can buy one from A+H archery which uses OLs limb design and only have around a year wait. I am no expert and far from it, but do not grab a bow of those designs by the limb as in taking it like a handshake as I have seen and heard a lot of stories of them coming unstrung and jumping around! The Centaur and their bowyer are top notch as well. Shawn
so far for me its a super mountain bow by bill kerner 48# @28" awesome bow to shoot.
Yea guys there are a lot of words of wisdon on here and I agree with you all.
It was probably a question fraught with danger - even before I proposed it. It would be like asking a bunch of car enthusiasts from different clubs which is the best car ............ you can imagine what a shambles that would be.
To illustrate - so many people on here rave about the Martin Savannah. I have never read one bad thing about it after searching these sites for over two years. But if somebody asked me they would get a different story.
I have the misfortune of having one and absolutely hate it - it is a shocking bow. The only problem is it got knocked around a bit because I didn't like it so it is a bit rough to sell - looks as if I am stuck with it. So there is a case in point.
I reached a compromise. I did what several suggested and ordered the A&H from their website. One just sends off an email - so I have not heard back from them yet. I don't know how long it will be but I have braced myself for a long wait.
Therefore meanwhile I will keep shooting my Horne's and get used to the grip or have it changed. It really is a great little bow. Thanks again for the words of wisdom and keeping it all cool - I am glad it didn't end up in a slanging match - as sometimes happens with these questions.
sutto
Sutto, where I come from we call that a "bought lesson"--one that costs you, but you won't soon forget it. :readit:
Message boards are great, and Tradgang is the best, but we always have to keep in mind opinions are just that--opinions--regardless who posts them. Also, you won't see nearly as many folks that have a........less than positive remark posting, as they open themselves up to a lambasting. :eek:
I know I've been accused of practically everything but being intelligent for giving my honest opinions when they were less than glowing. :knothead:
Good luck with the A&H!! And remember, if you don't really care for it, don't use it as a club--someone will be happy to take it off your hands!
Chad
You won't regret ordering the A&H. I have two and am on the list for a third. I know it is the "best" in my mind, I just can't decide which #'s I like the best. Don't get too heavy a draw weight. My first one was 52#. The two I have now are 41# & 45#. I thought the 41# was going to be my 3D bow, now I'm really considering it being my #1 bow for whitetails. I have bows in the mid 50#'s but I really shoot the 41# bow better.
Leon Stewart builds a bow that is hard to beat.
www.stewartsarchery.com (http://www.stewartsarchery.com)
He builds 3 different longbows...not the cheapest, but the fit and finish is as good as it gets, and they will shoot with anything.
Billy
I have just ordered a new turkey creek bow and I put my name on the A&H list, so that should have all bases covered!!
The T/C will be here in a month or so and the A&H will probably be ages - but that way I have my short term and long term bows. If the T/C is really awesome like some of the threads I have read then I can just cancel the A&H.
Sutto
Suttoman sorry I have'nt responded to your questions . I must have missed them. LOL. I do own a Horne's Brushbow, Doug's web site is wwwTurkeycreeklongbows .com He is a sponser here so you can also click on sponsers and scroll down and click on TurkeyCreek
OPPS OK I guess you did find Doug's Site!!That's great! What did you order from Doug?
Doug was great to talk to and he even understood my Australian accent!#$^&&**!
I have ordered his double carbon R/D longbow. Still deciding on the colour of the riser but it has to be Dymondwood because it has the B/B. I read some great things about it and I am very optiimistic to get such a fast bow. I only shoot 41# so I need the fastest bow I can get for out big feral hogs.
Doug said he did some tests with a friend's bow using the same arrows -his bow is only about three FPS slower than the A&H! That sounds close enough for me!
The good thing is I don't have to wait two years or whatever it is - he said my bow will be in Auss in about five weeks. The countdown is on!
Thanks Bentpole for the suggestion -it was because of you that I had a very serious look at Turkey Creek - then I rang Doug.
Sutto
If it's speed you're after, the Black Swan carbons are are extremely fast.
JUST GOT A TURKEY CREEK WALNUT RISER AND BLACK GLASS. 45# @ 28". COULD NOT BELEIVE THE SPEED WITH HEAVY ARROWS. EXTREMELY QUIET, FIT AND FINISH ARE TOP NOTCH. THERE ARE MANY GOOD ONES BUT IT WOULD BE HARD TO BEAT THE TC FOR WAIT TIME, PRICE, SPEED, ACCURACY, QUIET, THE TOTAL PACKAGE. DOUG IS A SUPER NICE GUY ALSO ,AND IF YOU LOOK ON HIS IN STOCK PAGE HE MIGHT JUST HAVE WHAT YOU WANT.