No not compounds,but some would say just as bad.
I am selling my last two expensive,custom wood riser bows.Soon all I will have is metal risers.It started a couple months ago with the Dalaa. I can't get around the benefits for me of these bows compaired to my wodden risers.
Soon I will only own a Dalaa,a 21 in.DAS Elite and a 3 piece ACS CX with a metal riser.I am a little sad but not too much. ;)
Whatever makes yer teakettle whistle, RHC. Just enjoy your shooting.
Those metal riser are nice and with ILF limbs you can have any weight and length you want almost without buying a hole new bow.......stabow
As good as you are shooting the Dalaa, I would'nt think you will be sad for long!
shoot what you want be happy
That's not surprising. I see you're a carpenter. Grass is always greener on the other side, effect, I guess. :bigsmyl:
Wood is wonderful! But I have no problem with what you choose to experiment with. :archer:
Seriously, enjoy the flight of your arrow.
I thought this thread was going to be about the Bob Lee 'Dark Archer.' :confused:
I am a one piece wood riser bow guy. That is just what I like. But it does rub me wrong when folks get rude about about another persons likes and preferences in a bow. I don't see a dark side to it, the limbs have nocks and string grooves on the end, just like everyone elses. Good enough for me. Hope you enjoy them.
Steve
Never shot one of the metal risered trad bows. Glad you are enjoying it. :thumbsup:
Whatever your happy shooting is good with me. Got a good buddy that switched to a compound this year because of his shoulder. Still a pretty good buddy.
I've got a 1974 metal riser Black Widow if your interested 49#@28. Send me an PM if interested.
Thanks guys,The dark side part was my attempt at humor. I love pretty wood but being able to pick up the phone and have a world class set of limbs in a few days at half the cost of a custom bowyers price is nice.Then there is the ability to shoot as low as 6 grn. per lb. for 3D.I am talking 220 fps+ at longer draws.Did I mention adjusting tiller for split or three under. Short or long draw guys can adjust preload on the limbs to get the most speed and stability at their draw.
If you haven't tried one of these bows you should but make sure someone can help you set it up to fit your draw.
My only problems with metal risers are weight and cold to touch in winter. But I still used them when I had a compound. So I see wood as a new option I didn't have when shooting wheelies. It's not a contest, just shoot whatever you enjoy shooting.
Whatever works for you,have fun and be happy.
the one thing I have learned so far in archery, is that the finer details don't matter as long as it had a stick and a string that wont break, and something that goes straight.
that said, I want a Gamemaster II.... bad :(
I have to admit.....I've considered it myself!!!!! :rolleyes:
Back in the 1970's.....We all hunted with recurves with elevated rests and aluminium arrows with plastic vanes.....
I was thinking a metal riser takedown recurve,detatchable Kwikee Kwiver,elevated rest,shooting carbons with plastic vanes..... :scared:
Well you sure picked some good bows to cross over with! :thumbsup: This stuff is supposed to be fun and picking stuff apart and worrying about the other guys bow takes the fun right out of it.jmo
I'm with James, I never met a bow I didn't like.
I think everyone on this site should get a pat on the back. I don't know how much any of you visit a certain other traditional site but this subject would have had people ready to choke each other till blue. I think this sight has a great bunch of people that are just genuinely interested in archery and helping each other have fun and enjoy the sport. Oh, I almost forgot and made a mistake, you can't call it a sport on the other sight. Well, I think you all know what I mean so give yourselfs all a hearty pat on the back and keep smiling and enjoying flinging arrows with whatever turns your buttons. The guy that dies with the most bows wins! Wingman
jwingman,I agree with you.I didn't expect anything less from the folks here.What you spoke of is the reason I don't post over there any more.
This is just a way for me to tell folks about some great shooting bows.
My best to everyone,
Randy
You're right about going a little into the dark side. When you were describing the adjustability and the ability to shoot very light arrows, made me think that your bow needs to be in a differant class as far as 3D goes. The only way I could compete would be to buy the same type of bow. Other than that, shoot what you want. I have no problem with that. Most of my friends shoot compounds, and I hunt with them. Including my son.
I just watched Masters of the Barebow (for about the 4th time this week) and watched the creator of the DAS bows explain the bow and demonstrate shooting it. I have to admit, it shoots darn good. It wouldn't be for me. I like simple. I can confuse myself enough deciding on brace height, nock point, arrow length, etc. that goes with plain old recurves and longbows. I'd have to have my engineering major son come home to help me adjust my bow!
If they work for you and you can figure out all the adjustments, have fun with it. That is what the sport is all about.
Guys,accuracy is all about getting a bow that fits you and getting it tuned.I could do that with other bows.It might take trading a few bows first and a lot of arrow tuning.What makes the DAS bows better for me is that it is easier to tune and can be set up to perfectly fit my style of shooting.That makes things simpler not more complicated.The beauty is that it can be set up to fit anyone.
Well people tend to think the DAS bows and such are complicated.Really that is very far from the truth.They are just bows and can be shot like any other bow.You never have to turn a screw or adjust anything if you don't want to.They just have those options in case you want to.True some guys do take full advantage of those features but it is certainly not something anyone would ever have to do. Reading about some of it can be confusing for many but it is not. jmo
Shoot Randy--I've seen you bust clay pidgeons one after another (not thrown folks--he's good, but not quite that good yet) with a "cheap" wood bow. I have no doubt that with a little time you could shoot a broom stick strung up with bailing twine. HOWEVER.........
As anyone that's been in this sport for any amount of time will tell you, 90% of it is mental. When you are more confident in a particular piece of equipment, you will shoot it better.
I've shot with a guy that, if you took said broomhandle and could convince him it was a particular brand bow, I believe he'd shoot it like a champ. On the flip side, I think if you took the top-of-the-line of one of his chosen few, but convinced him it was something else, he'd have trouble hitting a barn from the inside.
Bottom line is accuracy isn't built into the bow--the monkey behind it is what makes the difference (or in your case, the ape behind the bow :D ) Sure, some are a little faster, some have less shock, some grips fit some people better, etc. etc. etc. but the biggest difference (in my opinion, of course) is the archer.
Give yourself some credit bro--you are just a dang good shot and have gift. Get a little more tournament experience under your belt, learn to loose the pressure and just have a good time, and you'll be the one they are talking about having to beat.
Chad
Carpenters used to use hammers with wood handles, too, didn't they? Have fun...
Haa, the force is great on the dark side :help: :) :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Woodduck:
Carpenters used to use hammers with wood handles, too, didn't they? Have fun...
Right on!
No dark side for me, if I won one I'd sell it at a discount and go for that cocobolo and...Even when I had a compound I went with the wood riser! :) That's a huge part of the appeal for me, admiring the wood grain and the craftsmanship, etc. I'm not convinced the Daa is inherently more accurate but even if it was-I am a bowhunter and my animals taken with my wood riser are just as dead. I don't care if I lose at 3D. To each his own though. Enjoy!
To me, I find that the prettiest risers are the ones that produce the best shots. The better it shoots for me, the prettier it gets. Of late, the prettiest ones I have are metal.
:thumbsup:
KPC
I have only shot one metal riser bow...an old Bear TD...and it was a dandy. Since then, I've bought an old 56" Bear TD with a magnesium riser and when I get a new string for it, I'll officially be a member of the metal riser shooters club. That said, I LOVE my wood riser bows! There is just something about the warmth and lustre of real wood that adds to my enjoyment of tradtional bowhunting. Plus, I like knowing that I'm holding a piece of artistry in my hands...something that someone built with their energy, talent, and passion for bows.
But as others have said, whatever works for you...go for it. The most important thing is to enjoy the sport!
Claudia
Dark Side? ... What Dark Side? ... I was told I went over to the Dark Side when my wife got me a Black Widow ... Then told the same when I started using carbon arrows ... There was a time when I thought one bow was enough ... NOT NO MORE ... Guess I fell off the Deep End ... :eek: ...
Enjoy The Life The Creator Gave You With All The Toys At Hand ... Cause you can't take them with you when He calls ...
... mike ... :) ...
Don't you find them heavy? My Hill is as light as a feather.
One and only one thing matters, just what your happy with. Can't say weather one is better than the other and I own both styles, like both styles. I'm in awe of the woods though. Pretty is pretty in the eyes of the beholder. And preferance is preferance!
Brent
Stone knife, they are heavy compared to a longbow, but mass weight in a riser is not always a bad thing...truth is many of the three pcs bows, longbows or recurves, that have dymond wood risers (and some that don't) are heavier than my DAS. And you don't have to shoot off an elevated rest to reap some of the benefits of a metal risered bow, the limbs are exceptionally stable, and the lack of vibration is a blessing to those with bad elbows.
Pinecone, I know what you mean about the artistry, energy and talent an individual puts into their bows, here's pics of three different gentlemens work, and I see it in all three.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/lgmarshall/DAS/DAS002.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/lgmarshall/silvertip/silvertip.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/lgmarshall/metal%20riser/metalriser.jpg)
Randy, I sent you an email yesterday, look at your inbox
John
Want to start a heated discussion? Tell a guy in a tradtional bowhunter camp that a metal handled bow shooting carbon arrows is not traditional. LOL
I had a lot of fun after saying this in BC last month. This is not bashing, it is making a point about the quest for advantage. Center shot tuneable flipper adjustable wizbang rests. Space shuttle composite wrapped shafts, laser range finders? One guy in camp actually used a finder on bears. Does one really need to rangefind a bear at 20 steps? Maybe if he is a gap shooter.
All I can say is enjoy your bows, practice and become proficient with them. Take game cleanly and quickly.
Ishi, Dr. Pope and Chief Compton didn't use metal bows or wrapped shafts. Challenge is a good thing, so is practice. Maurice Thompson said "there is no excellence in Archery without great labor".
jwingman,
I thought perhaps that "pat-on-the-back" came a bit too soon.
JDS3,I don't use a range finder but I am a gap shooter.I use what works for me and so should everyone else.I have no problem with what anyone else shoots as long as they shoot it well.I have personally seen too many guys use too many excuses when they couldn't hit a 3D target at 20 yards.
I don't know much about Pope,Compton,or Ishi,but I bet they used the best they had at the time.Did Ishi make a bow from the worst piece of wood he could find?
What makes this sport great is the challenge.Some accept that challenge as being able to take game the same way their ancestors did,with primitive equipment.Some just want to shoot with simple nostalgic equipment.Some challenge themselves to shoot small targets at long range without sights or cams.
I agree totally with the Quote by Maurice Thompson.I think it is true if said about the man that made his own bow and arrows and learned the skill to get close enough to the animal to make a clean kill.However it is also true of the olympic archer who spent that labor tuning his equipment and shooting 25,000 arrows a year so he could hit a grapefruit size spot at 80 yards.
To each his own enjoyment
Randy Clark
QuoteOriginally posted by Crowdog:
..... the vibrations that you will feel in a wooden riser bow after shooting a metal riser bow is unreal. No matter how heavy of an arrow you shoot....
From my perspective shooting an ACS CX, I wouldn't say that ALL wood riser bows are like that. Maybe a generalized comparison is fitting, but not applicable to all of them.
JDS3, or better yet.... tell a guy (or gal) here on this forum that a center shot bow, or flipper rest, or carbon arrows "aren't traditional", LOL.
"Ishi, Dr. Pope and Chief Compton didn't use metal bows or wrapped shafts."
And your point? I don't believe the challenge is gone and practice is not needed, when shooting modern equipment.... if in fact that was your point.
Man, those metal things surely are ugly :scared: :scared: :scared: :)
Its all on a continuum from guys who will only shoot self bows and make their own arrows with carved nocks, all the way to compounds. I have several carbon lams in my Border so certainly haven't noticed any vibrations but I am also a big step away from selbow. I don't need to shoot a Dalaa to have a right to comment on them as I said in my post that I have little interest in them regardless of whether they shoot better or not. These are all "leisure time topics" and certainly not of any real importance IMO. Some people prefer wood boats over fiberglass-even if they have engines. Metal risers say "Darth Vader" to me though not as much as compounds-they're kind of like a "gateway drug" for the people who still have a jones to shoot a compound! :biglaugh: Joke-honest! :)
My DAS is so advanced, I never need to practice.
Heck, sometimes I just send it out shooting and hunting by itself. If Ishi would have had one when he was younger, he would have been better fed and maybe taller.
:bigsmyl:
Steve
I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about. I carried my DAS last weekend at Compton and the weekend before at Cloverdale. Never heard one cross word about having a metal riser bow. Sometimes I think folks just look for a reason to feel persecuted. :rolleyes:
Heck, a few times at Comptons there were probably a half dozen of us with close to a dozen machined riser bows hanging out at the small pavilion by the practice range. No one called out the lynch mob. :D
Then again, maybe it's that I just don't pay much attention to negativity anyway. I shoot what I shoot and how I shoot for one simple reason; I enjoy it. I suppose I feel everyone should do the same, no matter what kind of equipment they choose.
QuoteOriginally posted by Crowdog:
Plus, the vibrations that you will feel in a wooden riser bow after shooting a metal riser bow is unreal. No matter how heavy of an arrow you shoot.
I've shot both a well made wood risered takedown recurve and a well made metal risered takedown in the same practice session and found no difference in handshock. I also found no difference in accuracy between the 2 bows. I find no problem with someone shooting a metal risered bow if thats what they want to do, but I also think that they aren't as superior to wood bows as some would like to think. It's just a matter of style same as some people like the look of wood some like the high tech look of metal. It's just a new fad and some people like jumping on the bandwagon of the newest fads as soon as they come along.
New fad? Not hardly! It's just a case of everything old, becoming new again, quite to the chagrin of many. I've been shooting metal riser bows since the mid-70's. Many a' critter has fallen to my Bear T/D magnesium riser bows. There were many metal riser options during the 50's, 60's and 70's. Actually, they have been there all along.
My primary archery interest is hunting, and I don't shoot well enough to tell "much" difference between wood and metal risers in my backyard, or on a 3D range. But not to acknowledge the performance superiority of a metal riser is... well... Maybe asking this question can make the point. Which Olympic archer shoots a wood riser?
I have a metal risered Black Swan and A&H ACS-CX. My name was chosen for the Three Rivers Dalaa. If there is a Darkside, I must be Palpatine himself! LOL
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
.... Sometimes I think folks just look for a reason to feel persecuted. :rolleyes:
I agree with everything you said in your post Jason and I also feel the same way about "shoot what ya want". Only thing I disagree would be the above statement. In some instances, that might be the case.... but in others, I don't think they are "looking" for a reason to feel persecuted because there are some folks who give them the reason. Inferences of following the "high road" of legends past and challenging one's self by doing it the hard way (whatever that is).... are just a few examples that show otherwise.
I don't see anyone being actually "persecuted" per se and I certainly don't bear any ill feelings towards people who shoot Titans or whatever. I hunt all the time with friends who are still compound shooters! etc. I only wish they shared the joy I feel about traditional archery. How MUCH more fun I have shooting a stickbow than I EVER had shooting a compound! The beauty of handcrafted wood. The very essence of wood-maybe coming from a tree from a far off land or from before you were born! Some of us felt something was lost in the swing to metal and high tech. So thus started the swing toward traditional. I see metal risers and ILF limbs and micro adjustments as a SMALL swing back toward that "dark side". I ain't goin'-not even as far back as a metal riser and caring about how high the score was over how I got it. I just bought a glassless longbow. It's a selfbow next and I might even love it for it's handshock and diminished forgiveness over my recurve. I have an automatic watch that won't keep nearly the time as my 10 dollar Timex! I hate fishfinders. I use my compass more than my GPS. You get the idea. It's all part of the fun though as I see it to have strong opinions about golf clubs, watches, shotguns or whatever else one might be into. Does any of it really matter?! No! All this stuff is just a pastime discussion kind of thing not a debate about someone's race or religion. So I truly apologize if I offended anyone in my comments. I see all this jawing as in that whole pool of "just FUN!" and I didn't intend otherwise! ;)
Curveman,
No need to apologize to anyone at all. This thing we call archery -- or in this case, traditional archery -- is such a diverse pastime that most anyone can find a niche to suit their desires. Some choose primitive gear. Others like decked-out machined riser bows. Most fall somewhere between the two. As they say, "it's all good". What a boring world it'd be if we all had the same likes and dislikes.
What I was trying to get at, albeit not too well perhaps, is that the backlash frequently seems perplexingly disperportionate to whatever ill comments folks are complaining about. Let one guy say something like "gap shooting is cheating" and half a dozen folks will be complaining about it for months. That's why I said, some people seem to look for reasons to feel persecuted.
I can't begin to remember how many times of the past 20+ years someone's taken it upon themselves to share their unwelcomed opinion about what I shot, how I shot, what I carried on a range...even how I hold a longbow...but so what? I can't imagine how miserable life would be if I let that type of thing bother me.
To be honest, I usually just chuckle a little to myself and move on. The Good Lord only gave us so much time on Earth, and I don't intend to waste any of mine dwelling on things like that. I'd rather just shoot my bow and have fun. ;)
Yep, it's all about the degree of challenge you intend to take.
Take you're pick :) ;)
I think if a lot of you folks are "feeling" a lot of difference between the two,you're shooting the wrong wood bow. I've shot metal and wood. I much prefer my Kwyk Styks......
Jason...amen brother :notworthy: :clapper:
been watching this one and trying to resist jumping in but must say that my experience mirrors Curt's with regard to wood vs. metal and the "sensation" of the shot----ALL of the quality wood bows I've ever shot (exception being straight-handled LBs and that's design, not material)were much more pleasant to shoot than the metal handle bows I've shot---haven't shot the DAS that seems the current darling but have shot quite a bit with Yamahas, Hoyt Gold Medalists, Gamemasters, Tiburons, Nexus and Helix,a couple of Bears, Jefferys and a Winn.
None were as quiet or "soft" at the shot as the quality Woodies---and those include some pretty expensive, high quality metal bows.
And while i'm stepping on toes (actually i hope i'm not, just throwing in my opinions which are worth just about what you paid for 'em----0.00), i also cannot find anything beyond the graceful curve of the limbs that's pretty about these metal handle bows with the knobs and bolts protruding from those angular risers
QuoteOriginally posted by Pinelander:
Inferences of following the "high road" of legends past and challenging one's self by doing it the hard way (whatever that is).... are just a few examples that show otherwise.
I bet the "legends of the past" would have used every trick (i.e. best string/arrow/bow materials and designs) available to squeeze performance out of their gear. We only call it "traditional" because it's in OUR past. They probably thought themselves pretty high-tech. :)
I personally love the variety of options which archery provides to us. I would love a DAS, but it just gets SO COLD here in Sask with a metal riser!
Well.... when I first got warfed a couple years ago, I got a Black Bear riser and had Bob Gordon do the conversion. I had been very partial to Bracks and Quests prior, not having been able to develop an affinity with long bows. I tried, but I just didn't have the mettle to stick with them. Recurves have always done it for me. Bob told me beforehand that the inertia in the heavy riser would spoil me for wood bows. In my case it was true. For me it has always been the feel of the shot at release that gives me my fix. The stability of the warfed Black Bear was an absolute joy. Then I did a Quarf on my own with pretty good results. I killed a bull elk with it using a 388 grn arrow. Previously I had favored arrows tending toward 600 grains, but I decided to try the lighter flatter shooting carbons with a good sharp two blade trusting in Gordon's assurance and after reading Ron LeClair's comments that they were getting surprising results with light carbons. Blew through that elk like a hot knife in butter! Then, David Sosa pmd me and made me a great deal on one of his bows. So, I'm just learning this stuff and the combinations that you can put together. I put 50# Hoyt foam carbon mediums on the warf, 60# Quinns on the Quarf and 44# WW on the DAS. They all shoot about the same speed through the chrono, but the WW's are the smoothest and snappiest. I find myself gravitating toward the DAS as a favorite because it gets through the brush best and I prefer the balance and shootability (is that a word?) of it from awkward positions, kneeling, sidehill, etc. I'm pretty much a dedicated hunter. Never entered a tournament or care to. 3D is just for fun and practice. Every so often I'll get the Brack out and fling a few, but it just doesn't feel as good as the metal. I'm ruined...lol! Now I'm on a quest for a Proline to warf and I'll be a little better informed on limbs this time hopefully. The Hoyt M1's are smooth, but a little doggy at my draw length. All I can add is, this is sure a bunch of fun, the combinations are endless and affordable without the long wait on a custom bow. I'm getting the impression that it's mostly about the limbs, that's where the action is. Yip.... the dark side is lots of fun and definitely for shooters, maybe not so much for lookers...lol!
My first takedown bow that I could afford was a 1973, metal riser Herter's Magnum Takedown. I loved that bow and nobody ever asked why I bought it.
I have a copy of Bow and Arrow from 1972 or 73 that has an article featuring Bob Lee, one of our great pioneers, hunting hogs in the south, using one of his Wing Competition II, metal riser takedowns.
Ernie Root was designing his Golden Eagle bow during the mid to late 1960's. Grimes brought out a metal riser in 1952. Par-X followed closely.
In the mid 1950's, we imported takedown, tublular steel bows from Sweeden.
Phil Grable, Owen Jeffery, Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Bob Lee, and more were making upper end metal riser bows by 1972.
Guys like Victor Leach, Bob Rhode, Vic Berger, and many others were kicking butt with the metal risers in the pro divisions, late 60's early 70's. Ann Butz was beating some of the men's scores, shooting her Golden Eagle takedown. Get some history folks, before you say these bows have no traditional calling.
Phil Grable was one who knew the advantages of metal risers; small pivot areas could be used to help reduce hand torque, while keeping weight to a minimum. The Wilson Brothers..Black Widow Bows, were making their metal risers in 1970. Most of those older metal riser takedowns were lighter in mass weight than their wood riser counterparts.
If you want to argue tradition, then you better know what took place already in this sport; otherwise, you're just pounding salt for no reason.
Facts: They are as light or lighter than wood riser bows.
They can be tuned just the same and are no noisier when set up properly.
They have been in use since before most here were even born.
They are not "the next step toward compounds!" That's one of the dumbest statements one could ever make. By the way...you all should know that the first compounds were made of massive wood risers.
I have noticed that the ones who decry the metal risers, are the ones who have never had a history that involved their use...other than the compound bows. Some of us have lived the history and it is not bad....it is good.
Variety is not the devil's doing; it is one of the things that makes this sport dynamic and interesting. Don't be ignorant of our rich history. The good Lord gave us two ears and one mouth, which means we should probably listen and learn twice as much as we talk. So I'll stop now 8^).
:saywhat:
I own/have owned some top-end wood bows. Border BD Ultra w/ Hex4, Schafer Silvertip T/D, and Adcock ACS (pre-CX). I also own one metal riser bow the Das Dalaa. Don't get me wrong the wood bows are great, but the DAS is the best hands down. The Silvertip is actually heavier than the DAS, they may be closer now because of the stabilizer, but that's something to think about. There is only a small strip of metal in front of the grip, the grip itself is wood (mine now is actually polyurethane), so you don't have to worry about getting cold. Plus it just plain shoots the best. No question. I shoot a rest/plunger setup, stabilizer, and soon, with the addition of Border Hex5-H limbs, it will be wood-free. I don't see it as the 'dark-side', but another niche in the history of traditional archery. I like the best performance out of my equipment, and the DAS is it. It takes no enjoyment out of it for me, but it helps give me the confidence I need. :)
Yeh, I've just gotten rid of my last lam. longbow.
Only thing on the wall nowdays, are sticks. Looks like a wall of firewood.
Frank
I certainly hope none who dislike the metal risers have big old metal bolts holding their limbs on, I know let's not get ridiculous here. Of course I've only crossed to the grey side, my old Hoyt riser was his first metal riser, and it's only magnesium!! And it's grey!! and so are the Sweedish Sebastian Flute Olympic limbs, that are made in Korea? A sweet shootin bow, with a Warf riser. Thank you, Bob, and Earl, and Sebastian, and Mike Fedora for my recurve, and Dad for my first recurves and Fred for making them, and to all the unknown workers who have made arrows, and prepared feathers and bows, and wrote books, and for those who keep up the grounds we shoot on and those who came before us and prepared the way for us all to shoot and hunt with bows. Thank you all