I have been doing this traditional archery stuff now for a year and a half, and am very comfortable taking shots that are 15 yards away (knowing that my mind may shrink 20 down to 15 in the presence of game). My question is this; How far do you take a shot comfortably ("I can make this shot, ethically and with certainty")? And how long did you have to practice to get there? Thanks.
RonP
For me too far is anything I am not comfortable with. Somedays it's 10 feet, others it's 50 yds. It's up to the individual hunter and what he or she can live with. JMO
That hit it SPOT ON Vaughn....
some days i find im "off" and i need to let a few loose before i feel comfortable hunting, other days i feel that my shooting i so dialed i could take a dime at a hundred yrds lol. Im not sure about you guys but for me its a mind set i have to be in as well as a certain ability.
-cory
So too far is whatever you are not sure you can make? That makes sense I guess. What I'm trying to figure out now is why I was able to improve pretty much until now, but don't seem to be able to get any better. I would really like to be confident out to 25 yards or so. Any hints to get past this plateau? I am willing to leave the long shots to Pope, Young, and those with more experience than me.
RonP
QuoteHow far do you take a shot comfortably
I've never taken a shot with bow and arrow that was comfortable. When that time comes I might as well take a photo. That's what makes hunting with a bow special. You never know what might happen when you let go of that string :bigsmyl: ...Van
Everyone has a different "comfort zone" for shots at game ... Maybe ya need to test yourself at a 3D shoot or by stump shooting ... If you are gonna hunt from a tree stand, practice from one ... If you are a ground pounder then do some real practice in the woods ...
I read somewhere that if you can keep shots in the kill zone at five yards then go hunting! ... Just keep your shots to five yards and under ... All will work out in time ... You are at this trad stuff just over a year ... Keep at it and you will improve with the "right practice".
... mike ... :wavey: ...
Van, you hit the nail on the head there.
some days are diamond; some days are stone.
I suggest you shoot a couple arrows before hunting the day you hunt; and see if your having a diamond day or a stone day.
Practice makes perfect; but 'a mans gotta know his limitations.... :)
Ron,
You ask a rhetorical question...How far is too far? You tell me. You're the only one who can tell how far too far is, for your shot. And I damn well am sure that I'm the only one who can tell how far is too far when I'm shooting.
Last year in Colorado I drew but did not release an arrow on a cow elk. She was 10 yards past my comfort zone. It all felt right, except for the distance. But I own that memory...it was a spectacular moment for me. I was ridculed by my training wheels friends in camp for not taking the shot. But it was right at the time and I hold no regrets.
Years ago I shot a whitetail so close that I was worried the arrow would leave the string before striking flesh. I was nearly kicked by the animal upon impact. That one was definately close enough.
You care enough about the question and the ethics behind the question to post, however in the end it's a confidence thing. You either have it or you go get it. You get it from experience, both at the range and walking in the woods stump shooting. Most guys will carry an extra arrow tipped w/ a judo point just for stump shooting. That's why God made Bunnies, to increase the confidence level of archers.
Now go for a walk in the woods and tell me how far is too far, for today's confidence level. Tomorrow that distance will change.
:archer:
The way to increase your range is to practice, and then practice some more! I shot well at 15 and would step back to 20 and lost all confidence. This was for a couple of years! I finally started forcing myself to shoot at 20. My groups started to improve. Now I am comfortable at 20! 15 Yards is a slam dunk, 20 is within my "killin range", and now I am practicing at 30! Stick with it and don't practice past your endurance level. If you are getting tired quit for that session. I've been shooting seriously for about three years now.
Oh I like everything in the 15 to 20yd range.Somedays that is too far depending on the time of day and swadows cast.Other days a 30yd shot is something I would take without a second thought.I never put max or mins on myself.I just shoot when I know the odds are stacked in my favor and do the stepping off of distance after it is all over.Too far under a certain set of circumstances might be 10yds and other times it might be far enough I would not post it on here. ;)
Van summed up my feelings, exactly.
I agree with Van...sort of. I never feel comfortable, but there are definitely shots I will pass on. Distance is only part of the equation. The angle of the shot, the position of the animal, the wind all play a role in my decision to release an arrow. Comfortable? No. Confident? Yes, or the arrow stays on the string.
There is a fact that everyone seems to be missing here guys....the distance someone can shoot consistantly, or even on those good days if you are an "On-Off" kind iof shooter, has nothing to do with the fact those animals MOVE...."How far is too far?" With the average trad bow shooting less than 200 FPS...it is in my opinion unethical to shoot past 30 yards....even that would be pushing it....maybe 25 yards would be closer to it.....the sound your bow makes alerts those critters way before that arrow gets there....whether you are lucky enough to have them stay put, is another question....are we talking ethics?....or luck here? before i switched over to trad i could group broadheads at 6" at 80 yards consistantly.......my bow shot over 300 fps too. it takes a full second for an arrow to travel that far at that speed.....it would take almost a full second for the average trad bow to make 50 yards.....do you feel lucky????
That's why i'm here today guys....if i can't count the hairs on that critters nose i ain't shooting.....period!!!.....
PS: This one hit a sore spot guys....hope i didn't go off too much here.....Kirk :o :eek:
If you have any doubt then it is to far for that time.
I agree with Van and others.If you think it is to far, it is and if it doesn't set your mind to burning you are wasting your time. You also have to take into consideration that regardless of how well you shoot you can't predict when an animal will take a step and make a good shot turn into a horrible one. For this reason, a shot at deer beyond 20 yards is my cut off,that is after I got my head on straght. :)
Deer jump a string at 10 yards too...
and if you want to be completely objective about it: they are LESS likely to do so at 30 yards and beyond.
They are also less likely to be alerted to your presence at longer distances, so are more likely to be at ease, easier to "read", and easier to chose the appropriate time for your shot....
So I still think that placing an arbitrary numerical limit on distance is exactly that: arbitrary.
Whether a shot is determined (by others) to be "ethical" or not will often depend on the result (though "ethics" certainly has very little to do with the result) - if you were successful, you're not likley to hear criticism, miss or wound an animal and its another story. But criticism also has very little to do with "ethics" - THE INDIVIDUAL determines "ethics" (for that reason, its a slippery word that I try not to use)
The bottom line is that everyone's "limit" is their own. If you can reliably hit your intended target at 100 yards, and you are skilled enough to detrmine when an animal will be stationary long enough or to predict where it will be when the arrow gets there, then who am I to tell you it shouldn't be done?????
Howard Hill successfully took VERY long shots on game - I doubt there would be a line of people waiting to tell him he was wrong....
KirkII, I agree with you 100%. It's not just about the ability of the archer, it's about the multitude of other variables that can and will happen. Jumping the string is just one of those variables. Animals are constantly moving, they don't stand still for long. There is a point, where no matter what the speed of your bow is or how good of a shot you are, a variable like a gust of wind, or another animal startling the animal, or that single step to grab another blade of grass or what ever, that the distance becomes too far. What is that distance?... I really don't know, but to just say that it depends on the comfort level of the hunter at that particular time, is not looking at the whole picture. I will say that most bowhunter education courses teach that approximately 40 yards under ideal conditions is about the max. Please notice the word approximately.
JasonV, no one and I repeat no one can tell when animal is or isn't going to move and I will use the word unethical when it comes to 100 yards shots at a living breathing animal.
Ethic's is something that is detrmined my the majority, not the individual Jason. i am a man that shot long distance competition for years. i had a bow that could do the job with fast flying arrows too....Would you say a good "prediction of when an animal would stay stationary" would be quartered away, bedded down, and looking away from you? .....Well i thought so too.....that bull elk was on his feet before my arrow got there in less than a second.....clean miss..(thank God)..But that arrow went EXCATLY where my pin was ..... i could have just as easily gut shot that beautiful animal.....
i realize there is an element of chance to all hunting...and stuff happens....long distance shooting with a bow and seeing animals wounded and not retrieved,is a big reason i came over to traditional archery...There is a lot of long distance shooting going on right now with all these high tech bows..
It has nothing to do with your confidance, shooting ability, or your equipment....every 10 yards of distance you add to your shot increases the chance that animal is going to take a bad hit.... i am not willing to take those chances anymore....i'm a gambler, and every now and then if things feel right...you get lucky!.... But i think it is unethical to take unessisary chances when it comes to making a clean kill or nor.... i'll play cards or go flick long distance arrows at rubber deer or elk if i feeling like gambling.... Kirk
I think the trouble with determining an exact distance that you'll shoot in the woods is the number of variables. Shadows can make a 10 yd. shot look like 20. A deer silhoutted in the sun at 35 yds might be highlighted so well that it looks a lot closer. Like a lot of people say it depends on the circumstances.
Personally, I don't believe the long distance shots are inherently wrong. From talking to a lot of people managing a proshop (compound and traditional)I think most people make much better shot choices as the distance increases. I was amazed at how many guys lost animals at spittin' distances because they got overconfident simply because the shots were close.
I guess all I'm saying is that the most important thing is choosing the correct shot for the situation.
I have to respectfully disagree that confidence, shooting ability, or equipment have nothing to do with shooting distance. Think about it, you said that you could stack arrows at 80 yards with a compound. If that is the case, then you could certainly shoot at a deer/animal at further distances than a trad bow(equipment). Shooting ability has everything to do with how far one should shoot. My ability limits me to 20-25yds but others can shoot much better than me and could shoot further. And confidence goes hand in hand with shooting ability. If you don't have one, then you won't have the other.
I hate more than anything to wound an animal and am very careful with shot selection(not just yardage) but to set a maximum distance for anyone and everyone is to assume that everyone has the same ability.
KirkII - this is not a criticism of you, just a difference of opinion. :)
Lots of good philosophy posted, but if I interpret your question correctly, you're asking how do you get over the 15 yard plateau? What do you need to do to become a better shot? Correct?
Well, this 15 yard plateau is pretty much the limit that many who are self taught, with home designed form, ever achieve. To get beyond this point it's neccessary to learn how to shoot. In other words, you need to develop correct and repeatable form along with an aiming system or else learn to be content within your present limitations.
However, should you choose to progress, there's no need to spend years at it. With the proper coaching you should see a marked improvement in a few weeks and months. Simply put, there are no short cuts, that's why it's the hard way.
It's not just practice, practice, practice! It's perfect practice.
You have to understand what it is you're trying to develop so that it can be broken down into sequences and then melded into one process.
Before I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
A critical factor in down range accuracy is yardage estimation, consistent anchor and consistent draw length.
With every change in posture, everything else changes. Most significantly, draw length. It's a simple fact that if you don't pull the bow back the same each time, the arrow will go in a different place. The terrain that I hunt is never level or even and I often shoot from one knee. So I have developed consistent form from the waist up and disregard the lower half of my stance since I can't control the terrain.
One of the most valuable tools is the clicker. It will quickly define your true draw length and awaken muscles you didn't know you had.
Another is the bow sight. Overlooked and derided, this valuable tool is the quickest stepping stone to barebow accuracy. It can be as simple as a matchstick taped to the riser. It's the quickest way to learn how to control your shot and develop form. After you know how things are supposed to feel, you can apply what you've learned to barebow instinctive style of shooting, but there is no substitute for finding these things out. You can take it for granted that all the great shots, in spite of the videos and books that they hawk, are well acquainted with these learning techniques, so why shouldn't you be too?
There's tons more to learn and digest, but those are two methods that you can get right to work with. In the beginning you'll likely become frustrated with it as it gets worse before it gets better and the natural tendency is to revert to whats become comfortable, but no pain, no gain!
If it was as easy as watching a video, reading a book and "becoming the arrow", there'd be thousands of Howard Hills and Byron Fergusons around. It ain't and there ain't. To become a great bowshot requires determination, dedication and hard effort. There are no short cuts, but there's lots of info available online, providing you have an open mind and are willing to try something different. You might as well, Seems you're stuck in a rut at the moment. No need to stay there.
Kirk mentioned that he shot long distance competition and he doesn't take the long shots.he is aware of the chances and knows a low percentage shot when it arises. It has nothing to do with whether you are a good shot or not. A deer is a living animal and one can't predict what it may do. I have seen the results of good shooters making bad shots, it isn't pretty. We shoot traditional equiptment by choice. This imposes limitations on our distance.I use to shoot in 3-d competition years ago . I was a fair shooter even won at state level and I put distance limitations on my hunting shots, not because of my shooting ability but because of the unpredictable things that will invariably take place in a hunting situation.
Great post Alsea!
Generally, I limit myself to 20 yards. I TRY to get closer...it's hard to screw up at 8 yards!
I shoot hundreds of arrows a week. A long time ago, Paul Schafer taught me to "stump shoot" from 5-100 yards. His reasoning was not to shoot game at 100 yards, but TO IMPRINT ARROW TRAJECTORY IN HIS BRAIN! Soon after he taught me this, I was doing unbelievably well at ranges even out to 80-90 yards.
The point here is this: if you are completely familiar with arrow trajectory, you will be able to shoot much better than if you only practice out to what you think will be your maximum range...let's say 20 yards.
Over the years I have passed 12 yard shots because my brain told me "No". I have taken 40 yard shots because my brain told me "Yes".
I don't shoot over open lawns at standard targets either. I shoot at natural things out in the woods...stumps, limb staubs, heads of timothy grass, whatever. That way, when an animal steps out to allow a shot, I know the animal's size and just shoot. I never think about range...just the animal and the arc of my arrow are all that is really important.
I hope this might shed a wee bit of light on your question.
Too Short
AMEN!!!! Alsea!
Brett
Alsea has it covered real well there. Improvement takes work and dedication.
I passed up a 12 yard shot at the biggest moose I'd ever seen, massive rack...the encounter had started out with me on my knees about 6' from his front hoofs...fresh gashes on his shoulders from sparring...he had lunged into the lake we were beside and was belly deep in water...I came to full draw had a few seconds to make the shot. But for some reason, him standing in the water freaked me out for a second and I didn't release, I wasn't sure.
Don't regret not shooting, and the memory of the point blank stare down will last my life...
I read an article in TB about the man who came up with the Catquiver. To paraphrase him, "If arrows ain't flying, nothing's dying!" Hunting is not a sure thing, ever. If you feel comfortable with the shot, no one has the right to tell you not to take it. We all have the right to miss, and we all have probably wounded animals at point blank range; I know I have. I wasn't happy about it, but that is hunting. I shoot at forty yards practicing all the time, but I would not want to shoot at an animal that far. You are the only one who has to live with the results of your shot. . .so, you decide.
QuoteBefore I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
Alsea, with all due respect that stuff will seldom work in a bowhunting situation with traditional equipment(JMHO). First of all you would have to know the "exact" distance if you have an exact aiming system. Even with the fastest traditional recurve and light arrows a mis-judged distance of 4 yards or less (43 vs 47 for example) will result in most likely missing the vitals completely. You would first of all have to use a range finder to get the exact distance. Then your form and everything during the shot process would have to be perfect. This is hard to do on a marked distance target course under ideal conditions using target equipment (at least for me when I shot good, impossible now) ;)
Bottom line is, if one is excessively quessy about wounding and not recovering an animal using bows and arrows then perhaps another tool should be used. Releasing an arrow at an animal at any distance under ideal conditions is not a slam dunk. If it was then why would one use that method to hunt (assuming we are not hunting in order to survive). If there is no fear of the unknown then how can one be excited. If one is not excited then what's the purpose of doing it in the first place :) Might as well sit home and watch "I Love Lucy" re-runs...Van
As a side note I'm not beyond taking a shot at something at my point on if I'm fairly confident of the distance. At any distance you have a 50/50 chance. Hit or miss :archer: ...Van
This is prolly one of the most argued points of bowhunting.
My limit is about 20,but I have passed at less than 10 and killed a doe at 26.(and a rabbit at about 60,but I was much less experienced then)
Everyone has a different level of ability,confidence,and everything in the equation,and therefore must make his own call when the moment comes. JMO
Yup. What Van said.
This has turned out to be a very good post here...there are is lot of valuable information, feelings, and experience being shared here....Alsea is point on in his philosophy....i was there, and i spent years disciplining myself and fine tuning equipment until i reached unbelievable goals....if you don't put in the time and effort you will never be part of the 10 percent that harvest 90% of the animals....
Van has a good point too though....if you are queasy about the idea of getting a bad shot, maybe another hobby would be a better idea.....There is always an element of risk with hunting with any weapon......Which brings us
Too Short has got an excellent philosophy regarding shooting in the field at many distances and learning your arrow trajectory to a point where yardage is irrelevant....
you add that to Diamond Paul's summary that limiting anyone's yardage to a set yardage is wrong...."YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS TO LIVE WITH THE RESULTS OF YOUR SHOT" This is absolutely the truth.....
Everyone has a different level of ability,confidence, and everything in the equation,and therefore must make his own call when the moment comes. JMO
Kennym sums it up pretty much the same......
This would be a good read for a beginner...there are many valid points here.....I'm going to stand down on ethics here guys....what seems ethical in one situation to one person, could seem dead wrong in another's eyes that has already "been there...done that"......
I have just watched many hunters I've been around for many years slowly but surely start shooting farther and farther with faster and better equipment.....they were not the only ones that had to live with those gut shots and lost animals....i was constantly called upon for my tracking skills from these guys...so I too, had to live with the results of their actions....the general public is watching these results too guys......my only hope is that those who are sleeping good shooting long distances and wounding MORE animals than is typically the case....is smart enough to hunt alone, & keep it to themselves.....
Full circle ...."How far, is too far? Only the individual can determine this for himself through experience in the field with equipment he's familiar with...."If nothings Flying, nothings dying" i hate that expression...but its true.....hunting is not for the timid at heart....we are challenging ourselves using primitive weapons, trying to kill animals here....what is more important? the challenge, or the kill? that could kick off another topic in itself......
Shoot to the best of your ability....choose your shots at wild game with care, or reckless abandon as you will.....sleep well guys...the Lord is watching...as well as the anti hunters.....Kirk
QuoteOriginally posted by Van/TX:
QuoteBefore I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
Alsea, with all due respect that stuff will seldom work in a bowhunting situation with traditional equipment(JMHO). First of all you would have to know the "exact" distance if you have an exact aiming system. Even with the fastest traditional recurve and light arrows a mis-judged distance of 4 yards or less (43 vs 47 for example) will result in most likely missing the vitals completely. You would first of all have to use a range finder to get the exact distance. Then your form and everything during the shot process would have to be perfect. This is hard to do on a marked distance target course under ideal conditions using target equipment (at least for me when I shot good, impossible now) ;)
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Van, I do use a laser range finder when I hunt. I just don't talk about it much around the boards. If I don't know the yardage I won't drop the string without ranging first unless it's pointblank. By pointblank, I mean 30 yards and under. Once I know the yardage, I know where to put the arrow and I know how to get it there. That's a lot different than poking and hoping, which is what a lot of guys are stuck with since they never learned how to shoot to begin with, they just went out in the backyard and started flinging arrows.
This ain't Texas out here, if I get a shot at a Blacktail under 55 yards I might take it, depending on the circumstances, because it may be the only opportunity I get, but I always range them first. The point is, I know how to make that shot. Someone who's limited to under 20 yards doesn't. I was real happy to see them range finders come along, back in the day, it was all guess work. Love them range finders, really cuts the wounding down. I wish more wheel bow hunters would use them. If I had a dollar for every story I've heard about elk wounded because somebody misguessed the yardage, you and I could have a pretty good party. If you can't judge yardage and won't use a LRF, better stick to close shots. I don't care how much of the arrow you've become, that stuff only works close up.
It's possible to hunt every day of deer season out here and never see a buck, let alone get a shot at one. We don't have the deer populations you easterners have and the critters are pretty wild. Early deer season runs concurrent with elk season, only 30 days to get the job done, so except for a few guys that focus on Mulies, everybody"s chasing elk. I don't hesitate to take elk at 40 yards. I prefer him to be 10 yards with his head down quartering away, but if it's 40 I'm good with it.
During Nov. we have a late hunt for Blacktail that lasts a little over 2 weeks. These are wild deer that you have to go out into the woods and hunt down. You can't pattern them and they don't come into farm fields to find hot does. The buck you saw last night will be on a different ridge 10 miles away tomorrow morning looking for does. These days I often have to hike several miles behind locked timber company gates just to start hunting. No ATVs, just boot leather both ways. No driving up to the kill with a quad or pickup, you quarter it up and pack it out on your back unless you've got critters. If you aren't a good shot AND a good hunter, you eat tag soup. It's even hard to find a doe to kill, let alone get close enough to her to shoot her.
Whitetail snipers and pig stickers have no idea what it's like to hunt out here (grin) and probably wouldn't like it too much. Torrential rain and rough country, but we definitely don't turn ours noses up at long shots. It ain't that big of a deal really, I think that the reason so much is made of it on the boards is just a reflection of how poorly the average Trad can shoot along with the over abundance of whitetail in the east that makes longer shots impractical since all you have to do is sit tight and wait for another one to walk under your tree and there is way too much romanticising about cresting, bowyering and fletching and not enough schooling on how to learn to shoot, except for the advice to get Byron"s or Fred"s book. Terry G. does what he can to help, but there's more than one way to get to the top of the mountain.
A good shot opportunity can come at 10 yards or 35, you just never know, but (
I ) may only get one shot opportunity a season and I have to make it count.
I've been doing this for nearly 50 seasons and my freezer"s always full. I don't buy ANY red meat, except some to feed the doggie.
Let's see if we can't get Portugeejn shooting better. :D
I agree that this post is a good one. In the 60's when I started it was a common thing to shoot when you could because you wont kill a thing if you don't shoot. The treestand wasn't commercial yet. I've killed deer at 70+ yds. Several big game animals at 40+ yds. After 45 yrs. of bowhunting and keeping records of all kills my average is still 18 yds. even with those mentioned in the math. I too practice only in the woods at all unknown distances with more shots over 40 yds. than those 20 and less. When I do shoot the normal hunting distances it's like shooting at monster sized targets. The nrin is a wonderful tool that takes care of things if you practice correctly.
QuoteVan, I do use a laser range finder when I hunt. I just don't talk about it much around the boards. If I don't know the yardage I won't drop the string without ranging first unless it's pointblank. By pointblank, I mean 30 yards and under. Once I know the yardage, I know where to put the arrow and I know how to get it there. That's a lot different than poking and hoping, which is what a lot of guys are stuck with since they never learned how to shoot to begin with, they just went out in the backyard and started flinging arrows.
Alsea, that was a great reply. I suspected you were not just shooting off at the mouth :thumbsup: :)
QuoteI don't care how much of the arrow you've become, that stuff only works close up.
I especially liked that statement :clapper: :D ...
I've been shooting trad gear for about 13 years and I still have not been able to increase my effective range beyond 15-20 yards. Some days I can hit at 25-30, most days I can't consistently enough to risk a shot at a deer. While I'm no Wensel brother, I've killed between 30-40 deer with a recurve and I can think of very few times where I would have had a shot opportunity "if only I was consistent at 30 yards." While I still aspire to get better at the longer shots, I doubt it would increase my hunting success much. The vast majority of deer I've killed have been 10 yards and under.
Should have read it all before I posted... Alsea makes great sense and I think its time for me to try some of the techniques I've resisted for so long. Clicker etc... My mentor was one of the best long distance shots I've met and he used a clicker and was a former tournament shooter that knew all the aiming tecniques. With that said... I'm not sure its fair to disparage us eastern white tail hunters just cause we're over run with the buggers. Close shots are the norm because we have these things called trees that have a nasty habit of clogging up shooting lanes. In the areas I hunt, there are very few places where I can shoot farther than 20 yards without a branch reaching out and grabbing my arrow.
Nevertheless, despite my eastern pride being wounded by a long range sharpshooter hurling barbed insults from the great state of Oregon, :bigsmyl: I think I will break out my old clicker and give it a whirl again. Even if it does add ten punds to my draw! Thanks for the inspiration Alsea! I'll write back when I'm breaking nocks at 50 yards...
Hey Alsea....a fellow Oregonian i see.....you ain't kidding about rough wet hunting conditions.....but some of the other stuff you just stated above should be mixed with a grain of salt....i probably hunt some of the same country you do occasionally, and i shoot all my Black tail deer between 12 & 25 yards....with all due respect my man....black tail deer live and die in the same square mile of ground....they don't travel 2 miles much less 10.....maybe we don't hunt the same area bro....just about everywhere i hunt the deer are thick as rabbits...if you are finding it hard to find does, i ....well...er....i don't know what to say....you do hunt with your eyes open i take it? i gotta put a fence up just to keep em out of my garden.....
Heck...I wont razz you anymore Alsea. these black tail deer are not a cake walk to harvest...they are sneaky and learn real quick....the dad burn brush is a jungle most everywhere the deer population is really dense too.....I like those areas with locked gates myself too. we take bicycles in 4 or 5 miles on some of those roads to get away from the boot leather crowd.....it's still darn tough getting an elk out any way you look at it....I've got about 30 years hunting Oregon under my belt now, and 17 years in archery hunting. this will be my first season coming up hunting with tradition gear. I'm looking forward to it immensely.....
Ya wanna buy a range finder bro? I'm done with mine now.....if i can't harvest my critters under 30 yards, I'll pull out a beef steak, or gnaw on a pork chop instead....i raise my own.....it's very seldom i have an empty freezer....some years i get elk meat and sell the beef, but i always get a deer if i want one....
let me know there bro....if ya have a hard time finding a doe to shoot at, I'll pen one up in my garden for you... :bigsmyl:
I got a good sense of humor Alsea, but don't go pulling the boys legs too hard about hunting the western jungles.....after about 10 years of hunting these parts without drowning, you can even pattern the elk....i know EXACTLY where I'm going to harvest my elk this year....same herd has been in the same draw for 15 years straight....i think they teach the next generations the safest routes to follow,,,,I'm going to take a nice cow at 12 yards with the long bow i just built last month.....i might even take a deer this year too, if the mood suits me.....Kirk
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Ethic's is something that is detrmined by the majority, not the individual Jason.
Not picking an arguement - but I couldn't disagree with that statement more vehemently. It takes more than a consensus to make an action "right" or "wrong".
As childish as it sounds: its the same thing our mothers tried to teach us when they said: "If your friends all decided to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?"
Ethics are MOST useful when they guide you AWAY from doing what the majority would have you think is acceptable, when you in fact know it to be wrong, and vice-versa.
Its what makes a guy like Paul Brunner pass up a 12 yard shot, but take a 40 yard shot...
There are too many factors involved to arbitrarily impose a "limit" on distance that applies to everyone.
My statement about 100 yards was intentionally exaggerated to make that point. Its NOT the distance alone that makes a shot a good choice or a bad choice - its a whole array of factors - and every one of them has to be taken into consideration on every shot BY THE PERSON TAKING THE SHOT. We don't hunt by committee.
Especially when it comes to hunting, I think that "ethics" are a VERY - and I would argue,
an EXCLUSIVELY - personal issue. The individual is the only one who will ever be qualified to accurately evaluate the "ethics" of his/her choices.
Hey KirkII,
Good luck with your first season hunting with the stick.
Do you hunt the coast much?
Here's a curious little guy I saw yesterday down by Siltcoos. There's a big tom in there and I bet he don't make it to season. He's 70 yards away by the way, that's a little far even for me...lol! I've been hunting black bear since April 1 and I've seen a total of 5 Blacktail in the coast range, including this fellow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/OBH/07LDbuck2.jpg)
Blacktail hunting is still pretty good east of I5 and west of the Cascade divide, but it sucks on the coast. Between Hair Loss Syndrome, too many rifle doe tags, bears and cats, there's not many left over here. Consider yourself fortunate. I've started hunting further east the last two years, over towards Sweet Home. The guys that know the country around there do pretty fair hunting with rifle, muzzle loader and compounds. I only know one fellow that regularly takes bucks with a recurve in the area west of Sweet Home and a few of them have been close to 40 yard shots. His hero pics are posted here on TG, but he kept the yardage to himself and I won't tell you his handle, he don't need the grief.
I have been in western Oregon many times. Never hunting but during hunting season to work, hike and fish. Had family in Grants Pass and in the Portland area. I know what your thick, rainy area is like. I live in western Washington so I know what rain and thick forests look like. Also I have seen the amount of deer down there and think there are alot more than were I live. I dont think that anyone who is a good hunter should have a hard time not shooting at deer at 55 yards. Eating tag soup is only one way of looking at it. I dont mean to offend but I think unless you are loud and dont know what you are doing you should not have a problem keeping your shots under 30 yards.
Hey Jason....I agree completely with ethics being a very personal thing.....but the guide lines of what is ethical and unethical in the pubic eye is "Detemined" by the majority....hey if you feel confident flinging arrows 80 yards while hunting.....Great! after a few of them step forward on you while your arrow is in route, and you find yourself trailing intestines though the brush intill you hear the groaning of the wounded animal a few times.....it just might change your "Personal ethics" some.... i'm not saying this doesn't happen at close yardage sometimes too....these critters move....but the odds of a clean kill are much higher at close yardage.....this is a sport....a very fine sport at that....i shot long distance for years and was darn good at it too..... i just can't live with wounding animals more often because i'm taling longer shots is all.....A good hunter doesn't need to take long shots......a hunter that needs to take longer shots to get his meat, should change his tactics some or go back to rifle hunting in my opinion.....but that's the whole point....it's just an opinion of mine i've developed over the years....To each his own bro....
Alsea....i'll send you a PM later....i'm heading for the shop......Kirk
Alsea, nice photo! cute little guy there.....I HAVE definately noticed the deer population in the coastal range has dropped significanly in the last few years...i'm actually seeing the mountain lions in broad day light now Too :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
The bear populationhas has really increased do to the "No dogs allowed" law too....i'm not a bear hunter myself, but almost shot a couple of them that i got too close to over the last few years....i HATE it when they make that popping sound in their jaws.....espeacilly when you can smell em, and not see em.... :scared: :scared:
I actually don't pay much attention to the deer on the coast.....when i'm down there i'm stalking those massive Roosevelts myself....I've been hunting out of the same base camp down there with a bow since 1990.....We have done very well....i think the last count on elk hanging on out meat pole was 37....i have't checked with a couple guys that hunted late season this year...might be higher now.....
Gotta run.....i'll PM ya later....if you are near the Alsea river....we gotta talk my man...i love that area down there.....Kirk
Van said it best. I can hit a deer target pretty far away, but not a deer. I must be close enough to "read" the animal. Is it aware? Wise to me?(no shot at any yardage) or feeding, looking away, completely engrossed with a hot doe.
At distance, a deer can be slightly quartering toward you, and you can't tell it. A poor percentage shot in my book. The closer the better. I'll gladly take a step back to shoot!(unless we're talkin' Grizzly.....)
We're probably closer to saying the same thing than it seems Kirk - I wouldn't take a shot at 100yrds, or 80, or even 40 - I might take a shot at 30 in the right circumstances - but I might pass up a shot at 10 in the wrong circumstances.
All I'm saying is that the distance in and of itself can never determine "shoot" or "don't shoot" - or whether a shot was ethical or not.
I also agree that the 'majority' will often try to "vote" on whether a shot was "ethical" or not - but in reality, the details behind the shot are what determine the ethics (by definition, ethics is the set of principals that guide actions, not the actions themselves) so the person taking the shot is really the only one who knows what went into his/her decision, so they are the only one who can judge the ethics accurately.
So taking the right shot at 50 yards could certainly be ethical, when taking the wrong shot at 10 might not be.
As I said, I exaggerated intentionally to make a point - but in reality, there aren't many who can make 40+ yard shots on game effectively enough to make it an appropriate shot - even fewer at 50yrds - and I'd have to see it to believe it at much over 50....
You are right on the money Jason....We are pretty much on the same track after all.....
It takes years and years of diciplined practice to shoot consistantly at long yardage. your equipment needs to be tuned to a razor edge, your arrows balanced and hand crafted like precesion rockets.....and your form has to be perfected......once to get to the point you are constantly blowing nocks, & shooting robinhoods at 40 yards.....you can group at 100, but it isn't easy to do consistantly....... i wouldn't shoot two broadheads at the same spot at 40 yards with my hunting bow..... cutting the vanes off your hunting shafts cuts down your supply big time.....
I have taken Roosevelt elk at 60 & 70 yards before...I had one i shot at 50 yards from a high bank shooting down at about 45 degrees hit perfect, unfortunately he got up and was heading for a flooding river at the time....i freaked out thinking if that bull gets into that river....it's gone!!! i put two more arrows in that elk while he was walking/ staggering away towards trhat raging torent....one at 70 yards and another right next to the first in the spine at 90 yards.....Oh it can be done alright Jason....i've done it.....i spent years learning to shoot long distance with unbielievable accuracy......But something snapped inside my ethics meter or something this last year....I missed two 6 point bulls, that were slam dunk shots for me....i even had the time to put a range finder on one.....i just kinda said to myself. "Kirk, What are you doing man!" this is getting closer to rifle hunting now, and i'm unintentionally incouraging others to try this ....both of those shots i missed were 80 yards.....the bulls just moved out of the way......i came unhinged at the thought of gut shooting, or wounding and loosing such a thing of beauty......it shook me up pretty good...i didn't hunt the rest of the season over it....I sold that rocket launcher in february.....I'm done with that long distance hunting crap...I'm done with the high tech speed bow crap too...I'll save my long distance stuff for 3D or field archery.....it's kinda cool watching those arrows fly.....
Now shooting flu-flu's at geese flying at 40 yards, i'm looking forward too! i'll take my big game up close and personal now...thank you very much.......Kirk
ttt
That's why long shots are unethical no matter how good a shot one is. Then animal can and often does move before the arrow gets there.
I was at a local archery club a few weeks ago and noticed a picture of a young man (early teens perhaps), his bow and a nice whitetail buck. In magic marker at the bottom of the photo was written something to the effect of the deer being shot at 50+ yards in a 45 mph cross wind.
I kept my opinions to myself, but if I'd tried something like that my grandfather would have used my bow to start our next campfire.
Because the minimum age was lowered to ten here in Michigan my eleven yr old got to hunt last year for the first time. We crammed alot of great experience into one year. I watched him pass a couple marginal shots. I was too far away to tell him not to shoot. As WE all know, he don`t know nothing yet.
Given the fact that he still "don`t know nothing"
I asked him to think back and tell me how he knew those shots were just too far to take.
"I could just FEEL it" he said.
Simple enough.
I'll shoot at a distance that I know I will do it right. Usually under 20 steps or alot closer. Never even consider more than around 30 steps.
John III