Hey all,
I am curious about the design of longbows and how it affects performance.
For those that shoot the Classic "D" shape bows, do you feel like you are giving up arrow speed and performance because of your choice in bows? Other than nostalgia, what advantages does the D Shape give you over the R/D bows? If someone liked the looks of the D Shape bow and wanted the performance of the R/D bows, can they get it or at least get close to it? Is such a bow made? I see pictures of some of these D Shaped bows that have a slight R/D when they are unstrung. Does that slight D/R bring the 2 designs closer to each other performance wise?
Sorry for all the questions...I am just trying to get all this straight before I start shopping for my longbow this summer. I appreciate your help and patience.
Thanks everyone.
Nala
I shoot a Howard Hill.
And I don't think I'm giving up a thing.
Theres more to performance than SPEED....
Stability and forgivness are a couple of them....
And they classic and very cool....
Nala, check out the Border Griffon GL. I've never handled or shot one but it got very good numbers on Pete Ward's site.
I know there's guys like Adcock that talk about the speed of the RD bows but I've shot a bunch of them and I've never seen a bow shoot 800+ grain arrows as fast as the Hill bows. I'm sure the Adcock bows are fantastic as a number of people on this site attest to regularly. I'm not saying anything negative at all about different style of bows but the Hill bows with heavy arrows are just plain impressive. Yes, they have a kick due to their "D" design but it's waht you get used to shooting.
http://acsbows.com/bowperformance.html
You must determine for yourself what you are most interested in for a bow. The straighter the limbs on a bow, the less speed you will have. You won't be giving up that much speed though. There are several bows made that have a "D" profile when strung that have reflex/deflex that would perform better than say a Hill bow.
I've got a hill style longbow with a little bit of backset in the limbs and one layer of carbon that will race with most any bow. It pulls 63 at 28.5" and pushes a 540 gr. arrow in the 190 range. I had two others of the same maker and wish I'd never sold them. Awesome shooters and super quiet.
That said if you want a D shaped bow with performance I'd look at a Howard Hill with carbon in the limb. I've heard really good things about them.
Chris
The Black Swan Classic is a D shaped bow that will give you as much performance as just about any Hybrid style bow out there. It is smooth as butter and will shoot 9gp# at 200+. No hand shock and is a shooter.
At what draw length with 9 gpp are you geting 200+ fps vermonster? I have a fairly short draw and the fastest I have ever shot is 182, with a Black Widow recurve that is. Had a chance to buy one of the swan's awhile back and am wondering if it was a mistake to pass it up now.
At 28" AMO
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
The Black Swan Classic is...smooth as butter and will shoot 9gp# at 200+. No hand shock and is a shooter.
Wow, 200+ , I had no idea a "D" bow was doing that. I pull 29", so 10 gp# should satisfy me.
The Classic is just a little slower than the Hybrid and Recurve Arvid makes. 5-8fps is the difference, the man knows how to get the most out of carbon and actually has his own made for him. If you don't mind a black bow these are the way to go. Some guys just can't get past the no wood veneers same as with the A&H bows, I like both very much.
Take a look at the Roberson Overdrive, it has the R/D design when unstrung, but the classic look when strung, only shorter.
From what I've gathered (my own research and others) If you make the Hill style bow long (like 71-72" long), put in a lot of limb taper (like 0.010" total per " or more), a longer riser (18-20") and put in some reflex (like 1-1.5") you'll get the efficiency (75%+) and performance of the mild r/d bows and be able to draw 29" without stacking. The increased limb taper requires the longer length to prevent the bow from stacking. If you don't mind the length this is a nice bow to look at and shoot.
I know O.L. has put the ACS in a Hill style results with nice performance gains. I want to try that myself but don't have the time right now.
Jason
The Border Griffin GL has the carbon but you can get the wood veneers over it (and bamboo) as options. (You will lose a minute amount speed with the wood veneers). I just ordered one in fact! :) It's mildly reflexed/deflexed so you still get that "D" shape when strung. I like longbows to look like longbows but having still picked up a LITTLE something performance wise from a more modern design.
I admire the "purity" for lack of a better word, of those entering traditonal classes with Hill style bows, however. We all might have different ideas of where that line of "no longer really a longbow" is crossed. Not a big deal though, just a preference.
From what I have researched and been told by bowyers, if the carbon layer is not directly on the back of the bow, and it must be the last layer, nothing over it, your wasting money. To get the true advantages of the carbon in a bow it must be the outer most layer on the back.
Mike,
Don't tell that to Sid at Border. I have shot that Griffon GL that Pete did a review on, and it has "GASP" a wood veneer over the carbon on back and belly. LOL!!!!
As a matter of fact, I might just get Bear blood on those veneers this week. Sid has a definite winner with that Griffon GL. One of the best overall bows I have ever shot.
CC...With Sid's bow I'll bet the design comes into play and not the carbon in the core with regards to speed.
Black Swan and ACS know where to place it and so do the folks that make ILF limbs for olympic competition. It's not an easy process to do it right but they figured it out.
You loose a bit of performance but most times you get a very quiet bow.If you can get one with tiny tips to keep the mass down handshock can be kept down as well.
BTW..I am not biting on the HH heavy arrow theory.The best performing bow is going to be the one that shoots the heavy arrow fastest just like it does the lighter arrow.That includes recurves as well as longbows. jmo
Mike,
Sid's carbon isn't in the core and there is NO glass over the wood veneer. He said he only loses a VERY tiny bit of performance and seems to gain some quietness as James says as well as LOTS OF PRETTY factor.
I am with James on the heavy arrow theory as well.
Efficiency will carry across all arrow weights in a solid design.
Vermonster13, James Wrenn, and Carbon Caster are right about heavy weight arrows...BUT...
...heavy weight arrows WILL narrow the performance gap between a less efficient bow and a more efficient bow...
QuoteOriginally posted by Carbon Caster:
Mike,
Sid's carbon isn't in the core and there is NO glass over the wood veneer. He said he only loses a VERY tiny bit of performance and seems to gain some quietness as James says as well as LOTS OF PRETTY factor.
I am with James on the heavy arrow theory as well.
I didn't know they are glass free. I agree though the carbon isn't pretty but I was never one to buy into pretty bows. My DAS Master is 100% flat black, just the way I wanted it. I do agree with the heavy arrow theory also. That being said I prefer to shoot a light fast and flat carbon arrow with a sharp cut-on-contact broadhead. I shoot for 8 to 9 grains per pound with my DAS. My Sheepeater Spirit does just fine with the same arrows.
Define performance, the IBO longbow class world championship was won with a "D" bow, so I guess the user got all of the "performance" he wanted. I would rather have a bow that hits the target everyday than one that is fastest if I ever shoot it thru a chrono.
I've shot some of the fastest RD longbows in the world and they were NOT less accurate than a slower bow.
Normally I would not get into this discussion and I agree what has been said so far. There are some bows made with modern material that maintain the classic shape that perform very well. Also seem to have been cleared up about Sids use of wood over the carbon.
Ok time to stir the pot a little, with the fastest little arrow is the fastest heavy arrow. Here are some numbers directly off of Pete Wards website. I really like his review and I think he does a very good job. You can see the the ACS is the fastest with lighter arrows, but the Border's is faster with a heavy arrow and 5 pounds less draw weight. Please help me understand this.
Bow #1 ACS CX 3p. 54# @ 28"
460 grain arrow 203 fps
530 grain arrow 188 fps
660 grain arrow 170 fps
Bow #2 ACS CX 3p. 50# @ 28"
450 grain arrow 198 fps
530 grain arrow 181 fps
660 grain arrow 165 fps
Bow #3 ACS CX 1p. 50# @ 28"
444 grain arrow 203 fps
557 grain arrow 178 fps
636 grain arrow 174 fps
Bow #3 Border Griffon GL 49# @ 28"
412 grain arrow 197 fps
454 grain arrow 189 fps
668 grain arrow 171 fps
You are right Cutty.That is why you hear the talk of a certain bow or type handling a heavy arrow best.It is simply because they are not effectiant enough for the lighter weight arrows.The better bow will shoot all arrow weights best.As the weight goes up the percentages are just closer.Slow bows need heavy arrows.
Bowhunterinchilie I have no idea.I do know if you look at the draw curve the Border stacks after 27" and gains 4lbs to 28" compaired to a much smoother 2lb gain of the Adcocks.I know which one I had rather shoot. :)
Alot of good info right here Nala.I sent you an e-mail.
QuoteOriginally posted by James Wrenn:
You are right Cutty.That is why you hear the talk of a certain bow or type handling a heavy arrow best.It is simply because they are not effectiant enough for the lighter weight arrows.The better bow will shoot all arrow weights best.As the weight goes up the percentages are just closer.Slow bows need heavy arrows.
I don't buy it. Sid's bows are anything but slow (see above) but Sid would tell you anyway his goal is not to make the fastest bow but to hit that best intersect of speed and forgiveness. He could reflex his bow more like the CX but he'd move off that intersect. He has also said in interviews that in his opinion: "longbows should look like longbows" so there is a committment to a certain style as well. A more recurve like longbow might be more "efficient" by definition but a "heavier arrow faster" sounds just damn DEADLY to me! How can a bow flying a HEAVIER arrow FASTER be LESS efficient?! I am not a bowyer or an engineer but I am having trouble getting that from a high school physics perspective. Border longbows have won world flight records-sems pretty efficient to me. I amy be wrong though.
Were the bow and string lengths the same on the above charts?
I did not say Sids bows were slow.Everyone knows they are among the fastest around?? Given that a crony is only accurate to about 3% you really can't pick numbers apart that are so close.For all intents and purposes 2 or 3fps is nothing between bows.For me even a larger numbers means nothing. :)A bow gaining 4 lbs on the last inch of draw verses one gaining 2lbs in the same weight bow is a biggie however.10fps differance would not make me want to shoot a bow that stacked at my draw length to get it.When you look at numbers to pick a bow it is best to look at all of them. jmo
I'm right with you, James...
Now, for hunting purposes, since a heavy arrow...or at least a moderately heavy arrow, is preferred by most...
...I think you do need to consider attributes other than speed when defining "performance"...
Like how quiet a design is...
But the problem is it's hard to quantify "quiet"...
I found after 18 years of shooting longbows and recurves, that the less radical R/D longbow designs seem to be more forgiving for me. When I'm shooting a Hill style, or very mild R/D longbow, I find that little flaws in my release or form are not going to cause the arrow to miss its mark as much as it would from a typically shorter, radically R/D longbow design.
Also, of the bows that I've owned and shot, the classic Hill style bows, and mildly R/D longbows have always been the quietest. I'm not saying a radical R/D bow is not quite, I'm just saying that my Hill style bow is much quieter.
Finally, not all Hill style bows are equal. I once owned a Dan Quillian Bamboo Hunter (Hill Style). It was very slow, and had a lot of handshock. I couldnt stand to shoot it. I have also shot a Jerry Hill Wildcat, and it also had a lot of shock, and was not fun to shoot. I've shot some of Craig's bows from Howard Hill Archery, and they are a pleasure to shoot (for me). However, my favorite, and current Hill Style is a 64" yew and Bubinga made by John Strunk. It is an absolute joy to shoot.
I stand corrected James. I'll have to ask Sid about that 4lbs on the last inch of draw. I can't believe it (my Black Douglas doesn't and I put it on a scale when I bought it) and I know Sid, but he'll be honest about it.
I'm with you on "even larger (speed) numbers meaning nothing." Sid was raving about the HEX IV over my XP-30's but I passed on the looks (no wood veneers) alone! :) Now he has these HEX V's that are pretty tempting with the wood but I'm switching to the GL for now. I can't handle the THOUGHT of metal risers for a recurve! :)
QuoteOriginally posted by R H Clark:
I've shot some of the fastest RD longbows in the world and they were NOT less accurate than a slower bow.
Accuracy is not the measure of forgiveness though. I know a guy who shoots a bow with twisted tips more accurately than a lot of people and that bow is not at ALL forgiving.
I suggest calling Allen Boice of Liberty longbows he builds D Hill style bows as well as R/D bows. He will give you straight talk as far as his designs go and they are excellent bows in craftsmanship and performance. 541-247-6382 or libertylongbows.com Call in the evenings he is a sheriff by day so mind your manners. This guys the real deal no hype. As fine a gentleman as you will find.
Curveman I am just going with what Pete has on the website for the bow he tested.I have never shot any Border bow.I had really considered trying one and might still but I already got too many bows. :)I know they make great recurves but I already have what I want as far as recurves go so don't even need to go there. :scared: :)
Curveman
I am not trying to be confrontational,if that is even the way to spell it :)
I would like to know your definition of forgiveness and if you think D bows are more forgiving than RD bows.
I have found for me forgiveness is more related to length than limb shape. I find it easier to shoot a faster bow more accuratly because with a flater shooting arrow if I miss judge distance I won't miss the mark as far.
A week ago I was asking a world champion about forgivness in different bow designs.He shoots a 68in RD longbow but I am interested what forgivness means to different people.
In defense of the Border GL I was told at my 29 3/4 draw I would need a 68in or even 70in Border. Could it be that the 66in that Pete tested is a short bow for Sid's design and that is the reason for the stack?
I shoot LONG Bows (68"-72") and whilst they are not the fastest bows they are silent, plus I shoot 750gr. arrows. The impact is fine. I feel that if you follow the rule "the slower the bow the heavier the arrow" you will be fine.
Hi RH, I hope that I don't sound confrontational either because I certainly don't feel that. Mostly, I am confused! :) Byron in TB says longbows are more forgiving. Other top dogs say recurves clearly are. So if THAT question could be answered then I suppose we would be on the road to knowing if D bows are more forgiving than RD bows. (As always, all other variables being equal).
I would define forgiving as tolerating more of the archer's errors without greatly affecting accuracy or less so than other bows would. As an example: If the limb tip twists less to the archer torguing the string then it should be more forgiving by allowing less error on your part by prohibiting too much tip twist. Byron would say that's one reason longbows are more forgiving than recurves so one of the pluses of adding stiff carbon to a recurve therefore is exactly to help prevent more torguing of the bow limb from pulling the string wrong. More length or mass in the limb and/or riser should also help. A highly RD longbow that was also made very short would only achieve that by pushing the riser forward-shorter but inherently less stable as the center of gravity would be farther away from the archer (try holding a heavy weight farther away from you then close then thinking of the jerk from the string as you release the arrow. Of course I say all this with the knowledge that some physics professor or mechanical engineer is laughing his ass off right now! :) Makes sense to me though! Thoughts anybody?
You may be right about the Border length question. I believe my draw length in a longbow is only 27. (28 in a recurve). Sid told me that the 64" would be fine but not to draw it past 29.
Anyway, some friends and I like to challenge and debate each other all the time. Its fun for us but I did not mean to come across as obnoxious. I'm constantly asking myself if something is really true or do I just believe it because I read it in a book! :)
Curveman,
You did not come across as obnoxious.Because of the limitations of not being able to see each other's expressions I just wanted to err to caution.
I would have agreed with you about forgivness in a bow untill the last couple weeks. I have shot a couple lately that by my old definition should be ,as Chad Weaver says,as unforgiving as an ex mother in law.However theses bows were nothing but sweet and accurate even with my less than good form and release.
The only point I really wanted to make is that with some designs today I don't think anyone has to choose between fast or forgiving.
The reason I am at Trad Gang is that we can ask each other questions and debate like adults.Here everyone seems to respect each other as they should.
As to the origional Question ,with some bows, Border, Black Swan and others I am sure I have overlooked it doesn't seem that you have to give up performance for a classic shape if that is what you want.
I think there's a very interesting question in whether the "forgiveness," stabiity, and accuracy quite a few of us fine in the "D" design is more related to the longer lengths needed to get them not to stack, or to their deep core, and narrow tips.
I mean, how many R/D's out there are built to "60-"70 inches?
The reason R/D longbows have become so popular is the much larger market for shorter bows anyway.
Lost in the whole craze for shorter, and shorter high performance bows is the fact that the shortest RECURVE Oly shooter's shoot is "66 and most serious competitors shoot "68-"70...
There's a reason for that...
Where did all the sweet "64 inch custom 'curves go? The ones that I've shot at that length have been silky smooth, especially at higher draw weights...
...not that I'm knocking the Shrew's, and Kabekona's, Centaur's, and River Edge Vortex's of the world...
...great little bows that have a very important place for blinds, stands, back East, and those guys who just prefer a shorter bow...
If you are dealing with an all wood bow, the English D shape vs. the flat bow come within spitting distance of each other; if both are tillered perfect and of suitable wood. There in lies the problem.
The D shape is far less forgiving and very highly strained hence the need for perfect tillering and woods such as yew and osage.
Neither style will make great improvements to your shooting and both will kill game.
The decision is based on what you like. I like the classic long bows but they are hard to squeeze into a bind.
Once you add fiberglass the difference is more personal feel then performance.
RPr
On arrows approaching dry fire. We have a German archer helping us with a bow durability test. he has a Border Reiver 90lbs at his 30" of draw and he has been shooting under 6 grains per pound arrows. A really high energy system. The bow speed seems to hover about 244 ft per sec and below 5.8 grains to the pound and does not show any real speed gain with lighter arrows
Interesting how every one seems to get caught up in numbers. One of the significant numbers is bow length 4" in bow length generally means a lot more limb mass than the shorter bow and perhaps more meanitfully carries more string mass.
4" in bow length can easily mean a 2 to 4 ft per sec slower than the shorter bow. Bows should be the same length for performance comparisons.
On light weight arrows around the 7 Gr/Lbs, one pound of bow weight often represents 2 ft per sec on the arrows. At 9 to 10 Gr/Lbs one lbs drops to around the 1.6 ft per sec generated and hence the percieved reduction in per formance on heavier arrows. The slower bow will never catch the faster bow however until you get close to dry fire as refered to in my above entry. I say percieved as the heavier arrow can carry around 10% more energy and around 30% more momentum. It's true performance difference is still there, only the speed element is lower all other characteristics of bow shooting are raised. Striking power, Silience, reduced hand shock and improved dynamic stability within the heavy arrow.
Last effort on this very interesting topic. The Griffon is a traditional looking longbow continuous curve limb design and "D" profile. We also have the Merlin made to the same materials technology levels, limb construction is the same. This is a straight or dished gripped mildly reflexed bow and a flatter "D" profile and the speed difference bow length for bow length is only 2 to 3 ft per sec due to the lower levels of energy storred. and therfore is also a real performer.
Hope I have added to the debate
Sid
On the "stacking" issue: I checked with Pete and he says to look again at his chart: the bow only gains 2# from 28-29" and then goes up 3# from 29-30 so he suspects that the bump at 28 is just an abnormality.
Only one way to settle this, every bowyer send me a model that makes the classic D shape and I will extensively field test them and write up my results on TG for all to see. :D
Is there a web site on Sid's bow the Griffon?
Vermonster
Thanks for the Challenge we can supply examples of all three of our Gl models the Harrier GL is a D/R bow with no reflex in the limb when braced but more triagular, delta shaped than "D shaped and that bit faster. We could supply numerous example of each model in say 5 lbs increments :knothead: to make the test information all the more complete. The more bows you need the happier we would be :clapper: . We only need to come to an agreament on costs :eek:
Sid
Send me some numbers Sid. dmjknipes@verizon.net I've been mulling over your bows for a while anyways. I'll have a CX shortly, have the new Black Swan design on the way and just need one of your's to fill out the trifecta.
The Harrier is a sharp looking bow Sid.
Pete's tests state that the Griffin GL is a very smooth and comfortable bow to shoot and he has shot both. He never mentioned it stacking which he undoubtedly would have if it did. To get the best out of any bow with any given bow arrow combination each and every arrow would have to be tuned to each bow to do an exact comparison. A change in spine can change nock height and so some discrepancy has to be allowed for every test. Take the difference in bow length into account and weight and I would bet the Griffon is as fast as the Adcock. If we took away the rosewood veneers then I bet it would beat it. Of course I can't afford both right now but maybe one of you wealthier guys can do the exact comparisons:) I went with the slower GL as I like the looks of both the wood veneers and the two piece, longbow riser despite some obvious advantages of a three piece and more recurve design. The animals I'll take with it won't mind! :)
To answer your initial question, "How much performance would one give up with a D style bow as opposed to a gentle or severe R/D bow. Not so much that most of us would notice. The difference between the fastest and slowest, with poundage, arrow weight, etc. being equal is probably not much more than 15 fps. If you compare the numbers for the the bow reports published in Trad Bowhunter for the past two years or so, that's what they so. And these are all top of the line custom bows. Now these are differences between bows of one type, i.e., just the longbows tested. The difference between the fastest recurve and the slowest longbow is a little more than that. Speed ranks about third or fourth on the attributes I look for in a good longbow. If you have an opportunity, try out all the styles. Then pick what you like. Good luck.
Well said Orion!
David,
Buy one of those Harriers!! I haven't got to shoot one of those YET. BTW I heard it is cheaper to have Sid's bows shipped to Canada first before they enter the States, so you are more than welcome to have it shipped to my house and I will send it on to you (IN ABOUT 3 YEARS)!!!!! LOL!!!!
Fellows,
On the "stacking" issue. I shoot a 62" DAS and have really gotten spoiled to a buttery smooth draw and the Test Griffon GL of Pete's DOES NOT have any apparent "stack" on the draw out to 29". I have shot it at 30" and although that is longer than my normal draw, it did not feel like it gained excessive weight that last inch. It did appear to burn the feathers off the arrow as it was rocketed down range.
FYI. The Harrier is a great bow too but it does not come in TD which is something I definitely wanted. I think it is faster than the Griffin if we are back on speed! :)
Curveman,
I would love to see a pic or two of your takedown together and taken down. I like a 2 piee takedown myself and haven't had a chance to see one of Sid's takedowns yet.
Will do CC, just have to wait for it to come in! :)
I offer you the same service as David. Do you want me to contact Sid to give him my address, or will you get it to him? LOL!!!!
"How much performance would one give up with a D style bow?"
Well, depends on what you want to hunt. There are two very dead Asiatic Buffalo in Australia that met up with my relatively light 75-pound Howard Hill longbow and two heavy harwood arrows. I could have used a heavier bow, but I went for accuracy over heavy poundage, and it paid off.
A big Asiatic buffalo can be about 350 pounds larger than a cape buffalo. The Hill bow heart shot them both, after slamming through ultra-thick hide and even thicker bone.
If you want to hunt something tougher to kill than that, say Rhino or Elephant, you could buy a "faster" bow, but a Hill bow would also get the job done, AND it would do it with the accuracy for which the Hill bows are famous.
Love them tight groups!