Anyone else notice a current trend of people on the various boards seeming to be obsessed with bare minimum draw weights and the lightest possible arrows for hunting big game?
My very limited experience suggests to me that lighter and lighter is asking for trouble.
I'm not saying we all need to shoot 80# bows. But I do notice (here, at least) that most of the posters who shoot "lighter" bows pair them with heavy arrows.
Your last statement contradicts the first (at least here) so I'm not sure what the actual question is.
In general, I don't notice stickbow guys trying to shoot the lightest arrrows from the lightest bows. I may see some trends in people shooting lighter weight bows, but not at the limits that would make hunting unreasonable.
Of course, one persons "hunting weight limit" is not the same as anothers.
Also, "hunting weight arrows" has a fairly wide spectrum....type of game is one of the many things to think of when setting up an arrow.
I recently switched to a 40# bow and 400gr arrows for hunting.Why?Because I can shoot it much better with better overall form.I started out with 55# about 5 years ago and I was a snapshooter.I was inconsistent in accuracy and I gradually dropped weight over the last couple of years.I'm not a snapshooter now and with the lower weight,my target panic is just about gone.I can physically pull heavier weight but I can't shoot accurately with the way I now shoot.I suspect that alot of the people who shoot heavier weights are snapshooters(not in a bad sense necessarily)and their quick release enables then to shoot heavier weights.You won't see olympic shooters shooting 60#plus bows.Most of them shoot bows in the low to mid 40's and they have to with their deliberate shooting style.I think alot of it has to do with shooting style and I also think some people are just overbowed.I'm shooting better,enjoying shooting more,and shooting with more confidence than I ever have and I owe alot of that just to dropping down in bow weight,which in turn helped me to have better overall form.I have no doubt that my 40# Black Widow and 400gr arrows are more than adequate for whitetail deer.
RayJ
In actuality, the 'lighter' weights some are interested in now were the average bow weights 30 or 40 years ago. Normal draw weights were considered to be in the 40's. 50#'s and above was considered heavy. I think we're headed full circle, that's all. Heavier weights became the norm when traditional archery got a boost in the 90's from compound converts accustomed to shooting more poundage.
Many of us, especially the more "experienced" (read that to mean older) among us are moving to lighter draw weights because they are easier on our bodies. We have trouble accurately and consistently shooting 60# bows so we are dropping down. This is due to age and shoulder and joint problems.
Overall, shooting a bow in the 40# - 50# range isn't a problem, but we should all use arrows that absorb/transfer the most amount of energy from the bow as possible and that means shooting heavier arrows. You need the extra mass to absorb the energy from the bow. It also reduces hand/arm shock and noise since more of the energy goes into the arrow and less remains for vibration/noise.
45 years ago I started with a Herters 45# bow. Through the years I worked my way up to a 65# Wing. Now, because of age, physical problems that resulted in 3 surguries, I'm down to around 42#. I've killed deer 65# and 42#. It's not really the poundage, it's shot placement and knowing your limits !
Older hunters
Sore shoulders
"Lighter" bows
There are several articles in Traditional Bowhunter of women (and others) taking big game with light bows. Kudu with about a 47# was one of them.
I don't have a problem with bows in the 40#-50#'s. In fact, I have a bow on order that will probably end-up just under 50# so I can use it in my dotage, but it'll also be lobbing heavy arrows.
Just seems to me that light arrows and light bows don't mix. In fact, light arrows don't seem to mix well with heavy compounds either judging from the penetration I see hunters get on TV.
At our club the best scores come from light bows. And the guys shooting them know that. They are serious about scores. The guys that are more interested in hunting are still shooting bows in the 50 to 55 lb. range. Some people need light poundage to shoot accurately and it is good that they realize that. Shoot what you want and don't worry what anyone else thinks. There are still a lot of good shooters shooting higher poundage bows. Myself, I'm not good with either one. :^)
I got into building bows andmade them at what poundage felt good to me,50 to 55#. I then made this little bow that, even though I could get it to 28"draw on the tiller tree, was way more than I could draw. So I shaved it down and kept working at drawing it until I finally almost got it to my anchor point. The only arrows I could get to fly out of it were some 2315 aluminums. So I bought a scale (finally)and it still was over 85# at my draw of 27". I took it down to 65# and that's where I shoot it. It has spoiled me for the weaker bows. I don't snap shoot and my best shot occurs if I hold anchor for about 3 seconds.
If I could pull only 35#'s I'd still shoot a minimum of 500 grains for hunting. I think Mr. Magoo is correct on how most folks think here. Other places it's a totally different ball game. Not wrong necessarily just a different way of thinking. :wavey: :thumbsup: ...van
Accuracy and shooting what you can control are good ideals. I have moved to a lighter weight bow too; the latest one is 49#. Combined with a 600 grain arrow it seems like a perfect set up for me. It even works great for 3D; but I don't shoot much past 20 yards, certainly not on game. But this talk about 350 grain arrows (and less!) that I'm seeing on other boards seems irresponsible. Why try for the lowest possible whatever, especially where animals lives are at stake-all we will be feeding is photo ops for PETA. JMHO
Lighter weight bows are coming of age again, but I also notice a strong following to lighter weight bows with high performance.
It seems that many are not giving up anything but the draw weight. Hats off to sensible weights that you can shoot well , and to the bowyers building the great performers that are so readily available to us.
I don't want any bows over 50@ @ 28" now, and I am leaning to the 45# weight a lot lately.
For me no matter the weight of the bow I want heavy arrows.
I got into trad bows to put the hunt into hunting again, and with that I won't even consider a long shot of 35 yards today on game.
In Denmark hunting with bow and arrow is not allowed and crossbows are illegal weapons in the same way as rifles e.g. you need weapon licence to own a crossbow. It as allowed to own a bow and arrow. It is possible to get a hunting licence for bowhunting in this way: First you need to have a normal hunting licence. Then you need to take a special bowhunting test, both a written test and a shooting test. In the shooting test you have to hit 5 arrows out of 6 at unknown distance between 5 and 25 meters. The hunting bow is not allowed under 50# for small game but I think this rule might have been changed today to say: arrow weight minimum 309 grains and energy minimum 40 joule. With these rules you need a 350 grains arrow if your arrow speed is 200 fps. Plus there are other rules. I think such rules are good in order to prevent everyone to go out and shoot animals with bow and arrow. I had hunting and bow hunting license many years ago, but I didn't keep it because the possibilities / areas for hunting in Denmark are not much. Then I had a compound bow at 52# for the hunting. This was ok for hunting but not for target archery. With recurve bow my bow should be around 30-32# at 28" draw for target archery. I draw about 25,75" and at that point the draw weight is about 26# - for target archery! I have ordered a Check Mate bow through Chad - I look forward to this bow!
I have two bows as of now. One is 56# @ my draw length, the other is 51# @ my draw length. I shoot well with both. I shoot arrows that are 556gr. They shoot nice. They kill deer and every thing else I have shot with them. What's the problem?
Since most states set limits on what people can and can't use when it comes to hunting light weights as long as still legal will kill the things people hunt with them.They don't pull those min numbers out of a hat.They are there because they have been proven to work over time. jmo
A lot of the lighter weight people are going to are out performing the bows in the hands of many that complain about the light weight bows as well. :) It is a lot more that what is written on the limb of the bow or weight of an arrow that makes things work.Ultimatly no matter what you use it comes back down to the guy pulling the string.I like to think the trend as you see it is because more people are getting smarter about what it really takes and doing things to do it better.Hitting where you need to. :)
My Brushbow draws 44# at my draw length. Shooting 550grn arrows I'm shooting completely through everything I shoot. I'm blowing through even the big hogs. When I start hunting something really big I'll go up in draw weight. Till then my worn and tired shoulders and tennis elbow are real comfy with 44#. :D CK
As I posted earlier,I'm only pulling 40# with a 400gr arrow.I've never hunted with this setup so I don't know what it will do from my own experience.I'm only going by what I've read and heard from others,which is that there have been plenty of deer killed with the same setup as I'm shooting.I'm shooitng 10grpp.My bow is quiey and reasonably fast.I don't want the added trajectory of a heavier arrow.Even at 20 yards,adding 100gr would be quite a bit of speed loss.I feel very confident that my setup will kill any deer if I hit it in the vitals.Does anyone really think that a 400gr arrow traveling at 170fps will not penetrate the ribcage of a whitetail deer?
I shot Littlefeathers bow last year while I was hunting one of his places. The smoothness and the increase of accuracy convinced me along with the fact that my elbow did not feel pain. Needless to say I was very impressed and as Curtis said to me "the main thing is shot placement" which we all know is true. I came back home and dropped bow weight 10 lbs. on both recurve and longbow. I still shoot the heavy arrows and plan on doing so.
Because of shoulder problems seems to be a common thread here. All of us shot heavy for years and now we have problems with our shoulders. . . HMMMM. I'm shooting a 45# BushWacker right now and loving it. I'm building a 52#'r for elk this year.
I shoot 500 gr arrows on the 45# bow and 600 on the 52.
Mike
I dropped to, 44, and 54 pounds 2 bows...myself, unless you hunt grizzly Bears or big elk...the lower poundages work , for in the southern areas... :)
After many years at this I think that with the modern designs of bows and the experimenting with carbon arrows (heavy FOC) many archers today can get similar or even better performance from mid weight and light weight bows than they could with heavier bows from earlier times. Even Howard Hill acknowledged that he shot heavy equipment to gain performance. My wife shoots 43# at her draw weight and has no trouble shooting thru animals with a heavy FOC carbon arrow and four blade heads. The whole idea is to be accurate. Doug Chase shot clean thru two asiatic buffalo in OZ using an unheard of 65# bow and killed two others with complete penetrtion thru the body cavity with the same set up. As bowhuters we currently live in the best of times. No longer do you need to revert to a compound to get adequate performance for hunting if you need to shoot light weight or simply prefer it. When I was a kid a 50# bow was considered a "big" bow and 60# was very rare. As much as some of you rail at anything the "smells" of compounds one of the remnants of the trend was to shoot heavy weight bows...70# or so. Coming from the compound mentality many have not been able to let go of the perception that one needs heavy bows to hunt with successfully. Hunting skills and accurage shooting are the primary concerns one should have.
Archer's Bible Handbook from Kittredge Bow Hut 1959-1960 10th Anniversary Edition
"How to Select Your Bow by Kitt Katt. The most important single requirement for selecting a bow is that it should "fit the archer". This means that the bow weight is light enough so that the archer can pull it to his full draw without excessive effort or strain...not just a few
preliminary shots...BUT EVEN AFTER A FULL DAYS SHOOTING! Due to the much greater efficiency of modern fiberglass bows, draw weights need not be nearly so heavy as those used even 10 years ago. For a man who wishes to own but one bow for both hunting and field or target shooting, the wisest choice of weight will be between 45 & 50 #. For field or target shooting only 35 to 45# with 40# the ideal. If you buy a bow for just hunting, 48 to 52# is the best choice."
This moment in time brought to you by The Ferret :bigsmyl:
A good performing bow of 45# is all that I want now. I agree with Pete W, "Hats off to sensible weights that you can shoot well" I was comfortable shooting 55+ # at one time, but time takes it's toll. After a bout with shoulder pain, anyone can appreciate lower poundage bows.
There are a lot of guys who shoot heavy poundage bows comfortably, and there are those who shoot them uncomfortably, or inaccurately.
I recall several guys shooting bows on a 3-D course with poundage of over 75#. They couldn't hold steady at their anchor point, had to snap shoot, and missed a lot of targets. You had to wonder what the point was.
As we all know the physics of arrow penetration has many variables...and that is why a pound of draw weight is not necessarily a pound...if you know what I mean. First, some of the advanced stickbow designs are highly efficient and that makes a difference relative to energy transfer. Then there are the other things mentioned...arrow shaft material, FOC, broadhead design, arrow weight, the ability to be accurate with a given bow, distance to the target,etc.
I admit that I am a fanatic about the details of all of these relationships. But that is also why I don't hesitate to hunt with bows from 40# to 47# and have great results using them. So...from my point of view the terms "light" and especially "too light" are relative at best.
Claudia
I have been bowhunting for 52 years never owned a bow over 55 lbs, most of my hunting bow has been 46 to 48# with no problems. Just keep those heads sharp and stay within your effective range.
OH MY, That Claudia is a smart lady! Do say more please. :readit: Just my opinion. CK
OOOPPS! FAT FINGERS DOUBLE POST.
Curtis/Claudia or anyone shooting ~45lbr's +/- ...what is the setup? I have some mid forty bows that I'd like to take for a walk next season and am wondering if there is a carbon arrow out there that will do it that some have tried.
I know I could just go and grab some 1916's and be done with it, but not testing and playing doesn't seem right ;)
My set-up is simple the way I like to keep Trad Archery. I am currently shooting AD Traditional lites(carbons). I'm shooting around 12 grn per pound. I front load them with the 100 gr inserts and use a straight forward two blade broadhead. The one thing I do favor with the lighter bows is always using a two blade head to insure I will get it deep as it need to be. I'm not saying a 3-blade won't work but I do feel more comfortable about penetration with the 2-blade heads. Here is the results of my set-up a few weeks ago.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/ck/CkbigSow.jpg)
This is my Horne Brushbow 44#@26 1/2" draw. Using the AD Trad Lites front loaded with brass and a big ol' Sasquatch 2-blade. The fletch hung up on the outgoing side of the hog. Dang near a complete passthrough. Good enough in my book. :thumbsup: CK
bjk, due to shoulder problems I've moved down to 45lbs at my 27" draw. I'm shooting both AD nitro lites and beman black max 500's, both weighing in right close to 490 grains. That's with 200grain up front on the black max's and 275 up front on the AD's. I'm getting on an average of 170fps. I haven't decided on a broadhead yet, it will either be a snuffer, tree shark or a razorcap, they all fly great and for deer and turkeys, I'm not really worried about penetration on either of them.
Ya know, I didn't even think of the 500's, which I love (and have some stock)...I guess there isn't a reason why a front loaded 500 wouldn't go perfect with the 45lbr's...I'm shooting the 400's out of a low/mid 50's so it sure makes sense...hate that ;)
Thanks
I'm shooting 45 to 55 pound bows depending on what I am shooting at. I do not want to go to snap shooting. I want to be able to hold the bow for a certain period of time and shoot, depending on the situation. For me it makes for better shooting. Arrow weight is 9 to 10 grains per # for hunting with sharp bh's. This is my preference for now anyway.
My set up is almost identical to Curtis's except I usyually shoot 35-55 GTs or Vapor 2000's. I get the FOC using 100 grain inserts on a sharp Grizzly.
Claudia
Hey Claudia -- Where can I find the Vapor 2000's? I had one and it did shoot well.
Thx for the info
One of the questions I asked Tim & Gabby Cosgrove when I did the Kustom King interview concerned trends in draw weight they'd seen over the years. I thought it was interesting that years ago they rarely sold a 45# bow. Now they hardly ever see an order for one 60# or more.
Something my paternal grandfather always used to say comes to mind: "You don't need more than 40# to kill a deer". Judging my all teh venison in his freezer every year, I'd be hard pressed to disagree.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Johnson:
As I posted earlier,I'm only pulling 40# with a 400gr arrow.I've never hunted with this setup so I don't know what it will do from my own experience.I'm only going by what I've read and heard from others,which is that there have been plenty of deer killed with the same setup as I'm shooting.I'm shooitng 10grpp.My bow is quiey and reasonably fast.I don't want the added trajectory of a heavier arrow.Even at 20 yards,adding 100gr would be quite a bit of speed loss.I feel very confident that my setup will kill any deer if I hit it in the vitals.Does anyone really think that a 400gr arrow traveling at 170fps will not penetrate the ribcage of a whitetail deer?
You are getting 21.38 pounds of kinetic energy with that set up..(170 x 170 x 400 divided by 540240 = 21.38 3's KE)...
Your shot placement on a deer would be critical. 21 pounds of KE is not going through a shoulder blade, or even through the front of the rib cage.....elk would be out of the question with that set up....it wouldn't get past a rib.... 20 yards & under under, low and right behind the shoulder would do the job nicely on a deer.
Well i gotta throw my .02 cents in here....although I'm bran new to traditional archery, I'm no stranger to archery. the Kinetic energy and arrow speed can be augmented with accuracy, penetration, and all kinds of philosophy meandering.....Books have been written, and the philosophies of light vs. heavy arrows and bows will be never ending.....
Considering this is a traditional forum, and most here reading this are using traditional gear. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that basic shooting principles is a major factor in how heavy a bow one should shoot to maintain good form. The even push-pull tension needed for a smooth release and good accuracy is critical. the amount of weight needed to achieve this is going to change from person to person. it's a very individual thing here folks....what may be perfect for one person, isn't going to work for the next.....
I hear a lot about "Snap Shooting" vs "hold & release" style shooting. the physical dynamics of shooting a traditional bow consistently accurate is only as consistent as the shooter replicating the same exact draw & release over and over again.....pulling and holding 40 pounds for 3-5 seconds i can do easily.....65#'s is another story....I'm wanting to let go a little quicker.....
What i have found to be true is with a lighter bow i can easily draw. i hold too long and my anchor point has too much opportunity to change slightly.....I've got a 42# re-curve i started with that is very inconsistent.....now then...when i went up to 65# my shot placement was much better, but still....consistency was a problem....hence forth, and to-wit "Snap" shooting would be an appropriate description of this weight for me.......BUT!!!!! When i dropped to 57#'s i found myself pulling smooth bacto anchor and releasing all in one fluid motion. i have the ability to hold the draw a few seconds without a problem if necessary, and still keep the the back tension "push-pull" close to the same every time.....i can shoot the heavier bow more accurate than the lighter one.....Why? Because it forces me to have good push-pull form, and my release is more consistent....
Maybe a seasoned traditional target shooter can use a lighter bow with the same accuracy of a heavier one because of training and form ingrained through practice.....for the average archer we are all going to have our own magic number on the poundage that shoots the best for us......
Penitration, KE, and all the other phisics & philosphy dosen't mean anything if you are not getting good shot placement consistanly.....
High speed, lighter arrows shoot flatter and can greatly increase your accuracy when shooting pins and judging yardage between 35 and 50 yards.......They are also much harder to tune and are very unforgiving with the slightest human error. The heavier slower traveling arrow at close yardage is very effective, an MUCH more forgiving to shoot quiet and consitantly.....
The bottom line is get set up with what shoots good for you, and sharpen your broad heads to a razor edge......
I know.....02 cents worth????? Ok....i got two buck worth in here....i can't help myself...Kirk
Oversized picture.
Why is it only that on everyone of these, "whats the lightest" threads(which are nearly a daily thing now), I NEVER see anyone posting about the animals that ran off with an arrow in them, never to be found, because of insufficient penetration? I KNOW it happens, I've seen it happen, I've had it happen to myself, back when I started hunting with a 45# bow. I've spent DAYS of hunting time helping others track animals that they didn't get enough penetration on. I've found dead deer in the woods with arrows in them that didn't go in far enough. I've read articles where I knew that the writer didn't get enough penetration on the animal in question, but that was never mentioned. You hear trout fisherman bragging about how light a tippet they used to catch a trout, but bowhunting is catch and release, is it? For sure you can kill the average 100# whitetail with a very light bow, if everything is perfect, but what about when its not? Suppose that once in a lifetime 230# buck shows up, just a few yards farther than that maximum range you set for yourself and he's not broadside, in fact he's a bit past quartering away, are you going to pass up the shot? Really? Its nearly always mentioned in these threads that lighter bows are accurate and heavy bows aren't, thats just a load of huoie. I've shot bows from very light to well over 80#'s and as long as you can draw and hold them the HEAVY bows are EASIER to shoot accurately. Howard Hill credited his shooting skill to shooting heavy bows and I know quite a few others who will agree with him. Why do you think the compound guys use releases? Its nearly impossible to get a smooth release with very light poundage. This is of course all about bowhunting, a target archer only needs his arrow to stick in the target, nothing more. My father is nearly 80, just a couple years ago, he killed several deer with a 67# bow, I mentioned to him all these threads about low poundage, he said, "they're lazy". Its not my intent to offend anyone, but it is a fact that we are now the fattest and laziest people in the history of the planet and getting fatter and lazier every year. When I started out bowhunting a few decades ago, the question was ALWAYS, "how much poundage do I need to work up to" and the answer was always "you should hunt with the heaviest bow you can shoot accurately", now the question can always be paraphased as "what the least amount of effort I can put out"?
that pic is too big!!!!!!!!!
I have never seen any animal lost because of lack of penitration unless the arrow was sticking somewhere it had no business and heavier would not have helped.After you get to where you are shooting through most things you hunt why would shooting more weight or heavier arrows be better?I have seen lots of pictures posted on this and other sites of animals with arrows hanging out from some pretty heavy bows.People push heavy arrows and little skinny broadheads when someone is just hunting deer.That makes as much sense to me as you seem to get from someone wanting to know about lighter setups. :)If I wanted to go shoot a huge animal that was know to be tough to kill I would certainly be thing heavy bows and arrows.The majority of hunters will never be in that situations so gunning for bear and then going bird hunting is not the best approach to things.You match gear to what you hunt and light bows serve very well for the normal things we kill. jmo
I really enjoy shooting heavy bows. I'm not saying light bows will not take game, I just like the feel and the thump of the heavy weights
I would repectfully take issue with the two statements "lighter bows are harder to shoot" and "what's the least effort I can put out"
in regards to the first, I would say that lighter bows may reveal flaws in your form that weren't evident with a heavier bow.
and to the second, I like to practice with the same weight I hunt with, and that's what I've done, all my years of shooting, and I like to shoot alot...pehaps if I had practiced more with a lighter bow, and saved shooting a heavier one just for hunting, I'd still be able to shoot the heavier bows, but I really don't see how that would have benefited my shooting, as it is, I Am still shooting the heaviest bow that I can. sure I could shoot a heavier one if I only chose to shoot 4 or 5 arrows a day...but who can do that? I love shooting to much to limit myself to that.
It's evident that people who bad mouth lighter bows have never taken deer with one. It also shows an ignorance of the bow and arrow and what it can do. With all the history we have, ignorance is unexcusable.
I'll tell you right now that a forty pound bow, shooting a 400 grain arrow, can blow through a whitetail chest...ribs in and ribs out. I've seen it many times. I also have seen some lousy shots...check Denton Hill sometime...and they are mostly overbowed.
To those of you who don't get it...please get educated. When someone drops from say 55 to 45 an amazing thing usually happens. They actually increase their draw length. I've seen guys struggle with sixty pound bows pulling them maybe twenty six inches at best. You let them pull a fifty and all of a sudden...voila!...two more inches of draw. A sixty pound bow drawn to 26" is about 54 pound; a fifty drawn to 28 is of course 50. However, the fifty pounder will perform better because it has two more inches of power stroke. KE means nothing when you aren't pulling the weight you think you are.
Now...to you guys who think forty-five pounders are too light? Let me shoot one into your car door at twenty yards. I'll use a really light 400 grain arrow, with a sharp Magnus 145 on the end, so it will probably bounce off. Anyone willing to try that?
I've seen arrows from forty pound bows go through deer and out the other side. A friend's wife shot a whitetail doe in the neck, from the front, and the arrow was sticking out the rear ham. The bow was a 35 pound Shakespeare Necedah.
Some of us have been there and done that, and know what a bow does in real life....not in a indoor science project.
If some of you would have actually been around during the 1960's, you would have marveled at how a few hearty souls pulled those heavy 60 pounders which, by the way, had to be special ordered from most bow companies of the day.
No one here is criticizing those shooting heavy equipment; it's just a few know-it-alls who have to chime in and show their lack of knowledge about the subject of lighter bows and their efficiency.
As far as wounding deer? That's a product of lousy shooting, and one doesn't need a weight chart for that.
"Suppose that once in a lifetime 230# buck shows up, just a few yards farther than that maximum range you set for yourself and he's not broadside, in fact he's a bit past quartering away, are you going to pass up the shot?"
YES. In my opinion, Bow poundage won't make up for a poor shot.
In response to the question about where to purchase my Vapor 2000's, I'd suggest looking at Kustom King or Three Rivers. Honestly, I've had my shafts so long that I do not recall where I purchased them. Try the above and you'll likely find them.
Claudia
"Why is it only that on everyone of these, "whats the lightest" threads(which are nearly a daily thing now), I NEVER see anyone posting about the animals that ran off with an arrow in them, never to be found, because of insufficient penetration? I KNOW it happens, I've seen it happen, I've had it happen to myself, back when I started hunting with a 45# bow. I've spent DAYS of hunting time helping others track animals that they didn't get enough penetration on. I've found dead deer in the woods with arrows in them that didn't go in far enough. I've read articles where I knew that the writer didn't get enough penetration on the animal in question, but that was never mentioned."
That is a VERY easy question to answer. Simply put, becuase those very things you mention happen with EVERY bow weight, from 40 to 90 pounds. It takes very little energy to push an arrow through the rib cage of most animals, unless you're talking water buffalo or some other huge ribbed animals that the vast majority of us are never likely to hunt anyway. Simply put, if you hit a deer in the rib cage, unless your arrow is flying so poorly that it can't possibly penetrate, it matters not whether the deer is 90 lbs or 290 lbs.
Some people never like the facts to get in the way of a good story but 99% of the animals that are not recovered are for one of two reasons. (or a combination of both)
1. They were hit in the wrong spot, regardless of draw weight.
2. They were indeed hit fatally but just couldn't be found.
KPC
All due respect to Arwin and his daughter, that deer looked like a small fawn to me. A 28# bow will get you a ticket from the warden here.
I get Vapor 2000,s from Lancaster archery supply.6.2 gpi at around 55 bucks and some change.
I know I have posted these two pics around here, like at least a million times. First because I have only been hunting with Trad gear since October and these are my only 2 kills(and I'm proud of them), second, because I think they prove a good point. Before i start, I also shoot a compound and mainly hunt deer. My wheel bow is 80#'s with close to 90#KE, so I really like heavy. I am new to trad and want to work up to shooting 55-60#'s with ease and accuracy.
The bottom line is that it is really not needed though.
I took this buck my 3rd day in the woods with my recurve. He was quartering away at 17yds and the first shot hit him about 5" high. it buried into the spine and dropped him. I made a perfect second shot and blew through his scap and lodged in his sternum. He weighed 250#'s on the hoof. I was shooting 55# recurve@ 28"(drawn to about 52#'s) with a 488grain arrow and a 125grain Razor shark. The shot wasn't perfect but the bow was well more than enough.
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/skipmaster1/IMG_0330.jpg)
And that leads us to last easter weekend. I took the 600# hog at 15-17yds with a 49#@ 28" longbow(drawn a full 28") and a 430grain arrow with a 125grain razor shark. It was a complete pass through, except for the nock. Tight to the front leg and through the "shield".
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/skipmaster1/hog.jpg)
The bottom line is if a 49# bow will do that to a big hog, a 40# bow is more than enough to drop a deer.
My buddy has taken 3 deer, all under 20yds with a 37# longbow. All 3 shots, the head lodged in the opposite shoulder, but he got 2 lungs and the heart. No exit but he hit heavy bone on the other side. All 3 deer went down in seconds.
That deer is a "hog," and that hog, well thats a lotta pork...
Great photos and congrats!
:clapper:
KPC
You can't argue with what George said. A 40# bow can kill any whitetail. If you choose to shoot lighter weights, there's nothing wrong with that.
At the same time, a light weight bow is not the cure all for shooting problems. It seems easy to just say someone is overbowed. As if a reduction of 5 or 10#'s of weight will magically transform you into a shooting machine. Nonsense! It takes time and knowledge to learn to shoot well. A light weight bow will certainly help you learn proper form, but you have to actually learn proper form. Once you learn it, you have to know how to maintain it.
That is the problem I see with light weight bows. They can allow a person to shoot better with poor form. That just doesn't transform into accuracy or penetration in the woods.
Molson,
You make a very good,and valid point.I love these post,that make a person think.
Dang, I'd hate to be the guy to tell all those Indians who used bows and arrows to sustain their lives for the last few thousand years that 40# isn't enough draw weight. Most of the Indian tribes bows were around 40# of draw, not all but most. Dang, they even shot buffalo and ate well. CK
I started out with 55# about 5 years ago and I shot it for a couple of years.I was snapshooting and inconsistent in accuracy.I then dropped to 52#,then 46#,and now 40#.I never had good form with any of the weights above except when I started shooting the 40# bow.I'm shooting better now than I ever have.I don't snapshoot anymore and my TP is just about gone.I can hold at anchor for quite a while(without collapsing)and still make a good shot.I am not lazy and I resent the implication that I am.I shoot more than I ought to.It's ridiculous sometimes how much time I've invested in trying to improve.I've tried everything to be consistent in accuracy.Some things worked for a while but I always ended up being inconsistent.Alot of it was TP.Dropping down to 40# was THE answer for me.I'm having fun again.I can shoot all day without fatigue.My arrows are tuned well to the bow and I'm as confident in my shooting as I've ever been.I'm not satisfied with snapshooting 8" groups at 20 yards.I'm not a weak man by any means but I think that starting out with 55# just screwed me up from the getgo.I feel that I could work up to 50# or more rather easily now that I know what "good form" is and am shooting with good form.I doubt that I will go up in draw weight right now though and I may never.This will be my first year to hunt with my new 40# bow and light 400gr arrows and I guess if I have an arrow bounce off the chest of a deer,then I'll have to rethink what I'm doing.I don't think that will happen though.Accuracy is THE most important thing to me and I decided that if it meant dropping down to 40# to get consistent accuracy then I would do it.I'm going hog hunting in the morning with my new bow.Low and tight behind the shoulder should get the job done.
RayJ
I think with the lighter rigs, tuning becomes more important than the heavy ones. I'm not saying that you shouldn't tune heavy bows, just saying that with the lighter rigs, you don't have much KE or momentum to spare.
Accuracy is the MOST important part of putting game down quickly. The "10" ring on my 3d target is 4" and if I can't put 19 out of 20 arrows in there, i won't hunt at that range. right now that is 20yds with my longbow. I am shooting 6-8" groups out to 30-35yds but i won't hunt that far.
Well, I would guess that some of my dissertations on the "other" forum about light/heavy arrows, may have prompted Magoo to start this thread. It's apparent that discussions like these can in fact, turn into "validation" forums of what can and cannot be done with certain setups.
I agree with what George Stout had to say.
I might take issue with KirkII's statement that shot placement on a deer would be critical with 21 lbs. of KE. I'm not saying that it isn't critical, because nearly ALL shot placements on deer are critical.... regardless of poundage, arrow weight, or whatever.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Quote.... Your shot placement on a deer would be critical. 21 pounds of KE is not going through a shoulder blade, or even through the front of the rib cage..... 20 yards & under, low and right behind the shoulder would do the job nicely on a deer. [/b]
Obviously the shoulder blade is not a good choice (by intent or accident), but the "front of the rib cage" might be somewhat questionable. OK, so here comes the validation part.... 40# with 400 gr. arrow on a rather large bodied deer from 16 feet up, 13 yards out, and quartered away. Hit high behind the shoulder, arrow was stopped by the opposite front leg (down low by the elbow), and breaking a rib going out. Can't remember exactly which one it was.... but I would guess the 3rd or 4th. It was no different than shots taken with much higher poundage and much heavier arrows, with the same resulting penetration. And of course, he sure was good eatin' just like the others were. :)
what Snakeeater said :thumbsup:
1st page, 5th post
:clapper:
What about a 400gr arrow out of a 50# bow?
Actually the KE of a 400 gr. arrow moving at 170 is app. 25.7#. It's 170*170*400/450240. I think the original calculation had a couple of number transposed. Either way it's still enough.
Chris
Pinelander gives himself a little too much credit as I started this thread a few days before our exchange on the "Wall". Guess he still needs validation.
In any case, my original comment was on folks constantly seeking the BARE minimums they could use for hunting ... not to bash people who use 40#ish bows.
I saw a lot of threads on the various boards with assumed novices asking "what's the min. draw weight I can use" and "will my 300gr. arrow be enough" etc .... Time and time again, many of the regular posters chime in with comments like "300gr. will blow through ..." and "here's a pic of a deer killed with a 28# bow ..." Just bad advice in my opinion.
I'm not a bowhunting history junkie, so I hesitate to comment when I read posts like George Stout's where he opines on the good old days. But I don't think I've ever read where Fred Bear or Howard Hill or Ben Pearson or Tom Jennings etc... used light equipment for hunting. Activities like field archery were much more popular years ago and my guess is most of the light equipment sold wasn't used big game hunting or perhaps for the occasional bow hunt.
The American Indian is always resurrected as well. But most accounts I've read, suggested Bison looked like a pin cushion after being killed. Not to mention the fact that they were chased on horseback by a group of hunters until they bled out.
In any case, I appreciate all the replies. It's all food for thought.
Why would it be bad advice? I mean if people are doing it with consistant results why would you not tell the truth about it when asked.I know what works because I have been doing it that does not mean someone else is wrong because they use something different that works for them.Personally I believe all the States that set mins on bow weight are going about it all wrong.They should be setting MAXIMUMS instead.I know from 20 years of shooting 75 to 90lb bows that there are far more animals lost from people being overbowed that any lost from lack of penitration on deer size animals because of shooting lighter weight bows.The problem comes from what people perceive as you call a bare minimum.It takes far less that most anyone would dream to cleanly kill a small whitatail deer.I do not consider bows in the 40lb class as a light bow at all.
I'm a big man and shoot a 50#@28" longbow with 600gr footed shafts tipped with Fish head 2 blades for elk and Wensels for deer..works for my bad shoulder...PR
I wouldn't want one group to become derisive of the other group ("heavy" Vs "light" shooters) and that appears to be happening a bit. I partly agree with Magoo in that I DO think too many people are ignoring physical fitness and should address that rather than look for the "weakest" way to do things but then there are others who are in awesome shape who for very good reasons, including joint injuries, do shoot a lighter bow. I certainly don't see heavy bow shooters as more "manly" and their counterparts as less so. But I don't see "heavy" bow shooters as necessarily being overbowed or otherwise trying to prove anything either. Even though I lift weights and am pretty strong, when I started tradbow, I had a little trouble with a 50#. (Different muscles). When it came time to buy a custom bow, my first bow had come to seem very light so I thought I would go mid 50's. It was only when someone in the bow shop mentioned that New Hampshire had a legal requirement of 60# for moose that I ordered one at that weight. It now feels every bit as "light" as my 50# bow did when I got comfortable with that weight. I just ordered a longbow in the early 60's just because I didn't want to make too many adjustments when I went back and forth between my recurve and my longbow. Oh, I had Ray of the old Lost Nation archery shop observe my shooting with a 60# to make sure I wasn't overbowed before I bought it. I think that is always good advise.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr.Magoo:
I saw a lot of threads on the various boards with assumed novices asking "what's the min. draw weight I can use" and "will my 300gr. arrow be enough" etc .... Time and time again, many of the regular posters chime in with comments like "300gr. will blow through ..." and "here's a pic of a deer killed with a 28# bow ..." Just bad advice in my opinion.
I agree. If someone doesn't know the answer to these questions, they need to learn more about bowhunting and shooting before heading off into the woods. To just say, "Yeah, have at it, I did it." is bad advice in my opinion too.
My 60# bows shooting 700 gr arrows blow right through game too. But if a beginner asked if 60#'s was enough to hunt deer he'd probably get blasted with dozens of posts telling him he's overbowed. So why is it ok to let a guy go just because he's shooting a light weight?
Personally, I'm glad no one ever told me I was overbowed. Since I didn't know any better, I just learned to shoot with 60#ers. Light does not make Right! Your equipment choices should be made after "intelligent practice" has given you the experience to decide.
Magoo, yes that is correct, although the "other" discussion began 4 days before you asked for "validation" about light bows/arrow weights over here. You and I must be having some confusion as to what validation means. When something has been proven that reflects on something that was previously only assumed, that's usually referred to as validation. Not sure why when I speak of such things, it is looked upon as me requesting some sort of personal validation from others. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, and really not sure what else you are reading into it. It's just my experiences shared with others based on the discussion at hand. Yes, it's all food for thought.
Hey Greg,
nice pig man!! nice deer too. Let's get together and shoot sometime, OK?
Molson....I don't consider 60# super heavy, even though I'm currently shooting 48#. It's always good to shoot what you can handle accurately. Remember, guys, that this board is a very small segment of the archery/bowhunting population; just because it's stated here doesn't make it so nationwide.
I don't think the "trend" is for lighter and lighter, I think the trend is to find out what really works. Some of us have lived through the ages before the machines took over. Some here, aren't even as old as compounds, so they have no experience to fall back upon. To affix a weight to an issue of "enough" isn't going to work, since there are so many variables.
Just take some time to think about everything that goes into an archery shot at any given weight. The guys who consistently holler about light bows, don't take into consideration the draw lengths; power strokes; types of rests; consistency of release, etc. A good example is my good friend Scotty. He has a Maulding longbow that is 68# and his draw is about 26 inches. There would be many folks on here who say wow...that's enough..no argument. Yet when we shoot together, I can shoot the same weight arrows further with my 48 pound recurve.
What's that all about....the heavy bow guys would tell me my bow is marginally capable for killing deer.
Performance isn't two numbers penned on the side of a bow. It's much more than that.
And by the way, deer ribs are not very thick and can be easily broken going in and going out the other side with little issue. Lousy shooting causes bad hits and lost animals.
George, I don't consider 60# heavy either. To me it's just average. To someone else it might be heavy or it might be light.
Your post is a perfect example of my point. Instead of just making a blanket statement, you have provided fact, opinion, and example that one could draw their own conclusion from. Excellent!
There was a thread on here recently and most of the responses to this fellow said he was overbowed. Overbowed based on what? One symptom? This guy was about ready to give up a bow he likes and no one even bothered to offer any advice or suggestions on how to tell if he was overbowed or how he might improve with the bow he had. Maybe he is overbowed and maybe he isn't. Shouldn't he have been given the opportunity to find out for himself? Just food for thought.
After reading through this thread, I get the impression that many think that most draw weights and arrow weights are equal in the ability to penetrate to the point of being lethal.
I often hear the comment that if you hit them in the right place, they're dead. If you can't then start practicing more. I'm wondering how anyone can shoot a significant number of big game animals, let's say 50 to a 100, and have every shot go perfectly. The animal never moves, the arrow never nicks a twig, The angle is always perfect and of course, you never miss your spot. Well, if this describes you, you must lead a charmed life.
Now, if you've had stuff happen, if you seem to never have things go the way they should, would it be no advantage to shoot a heavier arrow and/or a larger draw weight? Can't one arrow possibly get through a shoulder when another can't, or are all truly equal?
"I often hear the comment that if you hit them in the right place, they're dead. If you can't then start practicing more. I'm wondering how anyone can shoot a significant number of big game animals, let's say 50 to a 100, and have every shot go perfectly. The animal never moves, the arrow never nicks a twig, The angle is always perfect and of course, you never miss your spot. Well, if this describes you, you must lead a charmed life."
Point well taken. On the other hand, let me play devil's advocate. After sitting in a treestand in sub freezing weather for hours on end, or having to take a shot in an unorthodox position, or having to take a quick shot after stalking up hill for a half hour just to get into position, with which would one be less likely to have "stuff" happen, a lighter poundage bow that can be handled with ease in any situation or the "heaviest bow that one can shoot accurately" (at the range)? Could it just be that more "stuff" happens as a result of one being at the upper end of his draw weight limit?
You are correct, in this game "stuff" does happen. Having said that, there is room for both schools of thought when it comes to limiting bad things. One school attempts to reduce them on the impact end and the other school attemps to reduce them on the release end.
I just can't help thinking that trying to reduce them on the impact end is like saying that if you are going to drive recklessly, it's better to do it in a dumptruck. It's next to impossible to avoid accidents in a dumptruck but by God when you do end up in one, all that weight around you has to be good for something.
Having said that, I'm sure that there are some people out that can drive a dumptruck as good or better than most people can drive their cars, but it's certainly not the majority.
KPC
KPC
I don't think equating trying to increase impact (either via a heavy bow, a heavy arrow, or both) to "recklessness" is fair.
I can think of two perfect broadside shots I had in 2 years go wrong. Both were no more than 20 yard shots at calm deer ... by the time the arrow got there one jumped forward and one was running straight away.
The goal for me (besides hitting what I aim at) is to get 2 holes every time. Shooting the lightest gear you can, reduces your chances of 2 holes in my opinion.
Adjust your bow weight, your arrow, your broadhead or all three until you get 2 holes and your all set (assuming you can hit your target).
QuoteOriginally posted by GEREP:
Point well taken. On the other hand, let me play devil's advocate. After sitting in a treestand in sub freezing weather for hours on end, or having to take a shot in an unorthodox position, or having to take a quick shot after stalking up hill for a half hour just to get into position, with which would one be less likely to have "stuff" happen, a lighter poundage bow that can be handled with ease in any situation or the "heaviest bow that one can shoot accurately" (at the range)? Could it just be that more "stuff" happens as a result of one being at the upper end of his draw weight limit?
As long as you're not exceeding your limit where you're accurate, I see no reason why the heavier weight should be a problem. In other words, if you can handle 50 lbs without problems with accuracy, why shoot 45? I understand if a person has a physical problem, but just because lighter "feels better", doesn't seem like a very good reason to me. It seems to me that the goal shouldn't be to see how low of a draw weight you can get away with. I'd prefer people shoot the heaviest they can accurately handle.
Also, arrow weight has nothing to do with draw weight. If a heavier arrow gives you the best chance of penetrating a tough spot, then why shoot a light one? If trajectory is the big problem, maybe one should get closer, or practice more. Besides, a light arrow loses it's energy at a higher rate the further it travels, making long shots even more risky.
No matter what anyone thinks, there is a best way. Not all ways are equal. I'm not sure I've figured out what's best, but I would think that would be our goal, rather than "this will suffice
if I hit them in the right spot".
QUOTE]I agree. If someone doesn't know the answer to these questions, they need to learn more about bowhunting and shooting before heading off into the woods. To just say, "Yeah, have at it, I did it." is bad advice in my opinion too.
My 60# bows shooting 700 gr arrows blow right through game too. But if a beginner asked if 60#'s was enough to hunt deer he'd probably get blasted with dozens of posts telling him he's overbowed. So why is it ok to let a guy go just because he's shooting a light weight?
Personally, I'm glad no one ever told me I was overbowed. Since I didn't know any better, I just learned to shoot with 60#ers. Light does not make Right! Your equipment choices should be made after "intelligent practice" has given you the experience to decide. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well said.These same folks who blast someone as being overbowed are generally the same folks I like to refer to as form facists.Regardless of how well a guy is shooting,if there is any flaw to his form than they are quick to point out they are most likely overbowed.
Crap I say.Shooting a longbow is so easy even a caveman could do it.It does ,however, require
time behind the bow.Shooting at bales,3-D, and stumping all will equate to good shooting.It takes time.
I have people all the time tell me that I am overbowed and yet my arrows are STILL hitting where I look regardless of position or distance(with-in reason).
Bottom line;learn your equipment until it is an extension of yourself and enjoy the hunt.
There are those among us who still think that one hole with the arrow remaining inside the chest allows it to move and cut and do more damage as the animal moves away, especially with tougher shafts that may not break. So much for two holes.
If a light arrow travels through twenty inches of deer, and a heavy one travels through 25 inches of deer, but most deer are only 14 inches thick, are we arguing about semantics ?
I think that one thing that we will always have is a bunch of people with opinions on what they do and mood or pendulum swings as to what is the current rage. Up until Ashby's work of late, we had only anecdotal evidence that heavy was good.
Fact is, in the last twenty years, more has been said about light / fast being good than heavy.
This isn't the last debate we will have about gear and equipment. Fact is, we should mark debates such as this and come back to them in ten or fifteen years and see if the thought has changed since then.
Long as we don't get personal and accusatory, talks like this are great for bringing out ideas, all kinds of them.
Thanks
ChuckC
"No matter what anyone thinks, there is a best way. Not all ways are equal. I'm not sure I've figured out what's best, but I would think that would be our goal, rather than "this will suffice if I hit them in the right spot"."
With all due respect, I don't see anyone advocating using the absolute minimum to get the job done...if they hit em in the right spot.
You said yourself that it should be our goal to figure out what is best. For many, they have gone the "heavy" route and determined that it is not needed. You seem to imply that "no matter what anybody thinks" heavier is better. There are many people, long time bowhunters, that disagree. Does this make their personal research and choices incorrect? That is what you seem to be saying. Who am I to say that a guy like George Stout is wrong? Heck, I've only been shooting arrows at animals for 30 years...I suspect George has been doing to for a few years longer.
"I'd prefer people shoot the heaviest they can accurately handle."
Again, with all due respect, I believe the real problem lies within this quote. Bowhunting is a personal journey. We all as individuals try to determine what works for best for each of us, many times through trial and error. Sometimes it involves going against conventional wisdom, sometimes it involves embrasing it. Why would you have a "preference" as to what weight I choose to shoot? If my experience tells me that 46# is enough to humanely kill the animals that I persue and it is within the law, why would you have a concern or a goal to get me up to 50 or 55 lbs?
I can't tell you how many times I have been accused of being a "big tenter." I have been berated, cussed at and called every name in the book simply becuase I think its a good idea that all bowhunters should try to stick together. "Traditional bowhunters are individuals" they say. "Don't try to box me in with everyone else..." Now, many people choose to hunt with what some people consider to be light weight bows and now we all have to have the same goals? My goal is to be the best hunter and shooter that I can possibly be. I practice dilligently and I have determined that for me, accuracy is best with bows between 45 and 50 lbs. For you, that might be totally different. The difference in my opinion between me and you is that I have no goals for you.
:thumbsup:
KPC
You hit on some good points.Trad archery is a wonderfully subjective past time.Ultimatly,all the goal we need is to be able to hit where we are looking.That,friends, is the barometer for which good shooting is measured.It's that simple.For me,I like the way a 60-65 lb. string zips from my fingers.Yeah,it LOOKS like I am over-bowed and snap-shooting but it is actually a VERY controlled shot taking place.Who cares if a heavier bow hides "flaws" as long as the arrow is hitting the mark.
In fact,why don't we take it a step further;no more form vids.In lieu,why don't we simply allow a person to post vid of his arras striking his target and then narrate which arras hit where he wanted and which ones didn't and go from there. :bigsmyl:
You realize folks, we're on an intellectual cul de sac here.
Orion:
True, but it's a nice day for a drive.
:)
KPC
Well, I'm glad we have it all figured out now.
Now we can decide why 2 blades are better than 3 and why longbows are better than recurves ... or is it why recurves are better than longbows?
There seems to be an opinion among some that just because a person may ask "how light can I go to kill deer?" or "is 40# and 400gr adequate for hunting?",that the person is just trying to get by without the work needed to shoot a heavier bow or that the person is lazy,etc...I can't speak for all people in the "light camp" but I believe that most of them are not just trying to get by with as little as possible,or that they don't want to practice,or are lazy,etc...They shoot what is the most accurate.I also believe that some shooting styles lend themselves to heavier bows.Like Aaron said,he has a controlled snapshot that is accurate with his 60#-65# bows.I believe there are alot of people just like Aaron.They snapshoot,and are therefore able to shoot heavier bows.I'm not saying they're necessarily not accurate but they are physically able to shoot the heavy weights with their shooting style.Look at Rod Jenkins' form on Masters of the Barebow.He's shooting 41#.Try shooting like him with 60# for an hour or so.I couldn't do it.Some could,maybe,but not me.I dropped to 40# for the benefits of increased accuracy.It worked.I wouldn't want to shoot more weight with my shooting style.Sure,I think there is a limit to how light of an arrow and how low in draw weight is effective for hunting.What is it?I don't know.Everyone has to decide that for himself.My 40# Black Widow recurve is probably more efficient than a 40# selfbow and a 40# Adcock ACS would be more efficient than my 40# BW.Maybe minimum Kinetic Energy values may be useful as a guide to penetration but that wouldn't necessarily be the best way as some may say that momentum values are more effective.I personally place alot of value on personal experience and testimony from those who share their experience with their equipment.If a certain setup has worked in the past to kill game then it goes to reason that it will work from now on.
I think it depends on what you practice with - so you can hit the spot - as shot placement is #1.
Then it depends on what you will hunt, as light tackel may not be enough for some game.
That said, I practice with 600gr+ arrows and a 70# bow. Shot a juvenile bunny at 20 yards with my 73# HH black bear (dead center shot) using a 750 gr laminated birch arrow with a seel blunt. penetration was excessive - drilled a hole in the South Texas hardpan.
This tackel provides excellent penetration on most game.
Now, I mostly hunt Texas whitetails, and I have taken them nicely with a 50# recurve and 2016 aluminum arrows weighing in at under 500 gr. - still probably 9 gr per #.
Texas whitetails are not heavy game. I don't think our wild hogs are either.
Never hunted any BIG game. If I were after, or likely to encounter, a bear, or moose or elk, I'ld be more comfortable with my 70# and 700 Gr arrow combination.
But, you guys kill 'em like you want.
I completely disagree. There is not always ONE best way. There are way too many things that change. When everything, every time remains static and unchanging, that's when you can determine the "best". This is what evolution is all about....making changes, sometimes subtle, sometimes great, in order to meet the challenge at hand.
If you want BEST then get a big bore rifle. Anything less than that is negotiable.
ChuckC
I haven't waded through every post in this thread, but I've looked at most, so forgive me if this is redundant.
I don't think much of these types of discussions should revolve around bow weight to begin with. I've yet to see a bow kill an animal. I've seen a lot of arrows kill animals, but not bows.
To that end, I believe the discussion should center around what arrow weight driving what broadhead, needs to be thrown at what speed, and at what distances the arrow stays at or above that speed.
Working backward from there, a person can determine what bow will do the job adequately for them by testing it.
Because a bow is not a bow is not a bow, a person would have to determine if their bow will get the job done or not. It could be that one man's X pound bow, drawn to 29 inches shoots a ??? grain arrow as fast or faster than another persons X + 10 pound selfbow drawn to 27 inches.
As far as what arrow/speed combination is effective I would suggest looking at what CONSISTENTLY gets the job done for the animal you are hunting. For me consistently factors in what happens IF...fill in the blank (I dead center a rib on impact, I hit a shoulder blade, I gut shoot the animal, the animal drops and I hit the spine, etc.)
After you get that worked out and are confident in your setup, GO HUNT! If something doesn't work out for you, re-evaluate and fix what ails you.
Stan
QuoteOriginally posted by GEREP:
I can't tell you how many times I have been accused of being a "big tenter." I have been berated, cussed at and called every name in the book simply becuase I think its a good idea that all bowhunters should try to stick together. "Traditional bowhunters are individuals" they say. "Don't try to box me in with everyone else..." Now, many people choose to hunt with what some people consider to be light weight bows and now we all have to have the same goals? My goal is to be the best hunter and shooter that I can possibly be. I practice dilligently and I have determined that for me, accuracy is best with bows between 45 and 50 lbs. For you, that might be totally different. The difference in my opinion between me and you is that I have no goals for you.
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that a person should be prevented from hunting unless they can pull 50 lbs or anything like that. I also don't advise you pull a pound more than what works best for you.
I do however remain convinced that some things work better than others. I'm really not overly concerned with draw weight, but I don't like people thinking that just because 35 lbs has been shown to work, that's it's ideal if you're capable of accurately shooting more.
I also believe that proportionately heavy arrows work better under more circumstances, and I don't mind saying so. However, don't take that to mean that I have any goals for you - I don't.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
You realize folks, we're on an intellectual cul de sac here.
Yep. And we're pulling a triple. Backing out is gonna be tough.