Howdy everybody! How yall doing?
I was wanting to know if any of you guys / gals shoot / hunt with super light carbon arrows? Like say 6 to 6.5 grains per pound of bow?
I know the Bows Manufacture say something like 8.8 and up to honor their warranty
Reason I'm asking is a guy who is a pro shooter at a shop here in OKC says he shoots an arrow as light as he can. He shoots a 57# and a 60# longbow with an arrow that weighs 8.6 grains per inch. At 29 inches +125 grain BH = 374.4 grn = 6.24 grn (60#) or 6.56 grn (57#) per pound of bow. He shoots Carbon Express Thunderstorm SE's out of his bows. WHICH I asked how they aren't too weak in spine and he said with CX's Buff Tuff finish, and the way the carbon is wrapped it just flys great out of his bows and his wife's 40# bow.
He said he's done his own penetration tests and it proved that faster speed will overcome mass weight of arrow for penetration. They shot the same bow with arrows up to a 100 grain difference through a chrono. and the heaviest arrow only had 2.1 pounds more of K. Energy. However the lightest arrow had 8 more inches of penetration then the heaviest.
I asked him what he thought of what the 8.8 manufacture grain min. He said that he and alot of customers are shooting Black Widow Anny. ($1200) and other expensive brands and custom bows for several years with no damage to the bows with these super light arrows.
He is the second person within a month (both in trad shops) that has told me that light arrows give them better penatration then heavy and they also have had no problems with damage to bows.
I asked them whats up with needing at least 10 grns per pound of bow and they said that it's old school thinking with new school technology and that this new stuff is better light.
One said he shot two deer last year one at 26 and the other at 30 yards and they blew right through the deer with above set up.
Whats yalls thoughts? I'm in the market for carbon arrows for a 60# Damon Howatt Hunter at least 31" long. I was actually calling one of these guys to order some Carbon Express Heritage 350's (the heaviest carbon I have found other then grizzly sticks and arrow dynamics)and he was like "Why all that weight?"
SOOO.......what do yall think??????
Thanks for the advice! HH
Popcorn is in the micro wave.....and I'm melting the butter......
I personnally don't buy into that lighter and faster is better. Now I like a really good performing (fast) bow, but I like to slow it back down a bit, by shooting around 12 grains per pound. My new arrows I just made up are 640 grains and really hit the target hard out of my 50 pound longbow. My other arrows were 550 grains and out of the same bow, the heavier ones hit harder. Not scientific, but it is where my confindence is and that's what matters to me.
"Pro shooter" means he is a target weinie. The fact that he also hunts doesn't negate the influence that target shooting can have on shooting philosophy.(Fast and light helps in trying to group arrows on distant targets.) I don't doubt that he shot through deer with light carbons. Deer aren't a very thick or hard to penetrate target if you stay off of bones. Light arrows DO work....but those of us who have seen lots of stuff shot with both notice that heavy arrows work better. Heavy gains a little energy, a lot of momentum (which some of us are convinced is a better measure of arrow potential on flesh and bone) and are quieter and easier on the bow.
Wow. With a question like that, it's like seeing a storm coming up on the horizon...gonna be a lot of replies on this one...
The average deer ribcage isn`t much of a penetration test. A good straight flying arrow from forty pounds usually gives you two holes. In-out.
I have been hunting exclusively with traditional bows for 17 yrs now. Trial and error showed me that arrows on the heavier side offer advantages beyond just penetration.
You will have to try different set-ups to see what you prefer. Good luck.
LOL Terry, can I come over and watch with you? This is gonna get good.
Why don't you save yourself the time and call Black Widow yourself and get their take on the "new" way in which their $1200 products are being mistreated...
The only bows/limbs currently fab'd, that I know of, to shoot that light of an arrow are Olympic/FITA/Warf/DAS styles, OR a super-special carbon-fiber-reinforced riser made by Border in Scotland.
There is a point where an arrow can be too heavy, and there is also a point where one can use a little bit of common sense before they experience the exhilarating liberations as a limb takes a flight from its parent riser straight for the empty cranium of the speed freak aspiring to become the Sagittarius of the archery community...
how ya like that with your popcorn terry?????
Target shooters even the ones on the dark side like light arrows for speed.And speed means flatter trajectory at longer distances which will usally mean a higher score.I read in TBM many years ago a guy was buffalo hunting with a 90# hill type bow shooting a 1400 gr fishing arrow.It only shot at 135 fps but had a complete pass through on the buffalo.That was momentum of a heavy arrow.I remember years ago I shot a 500 gr. arrow out of my 73#@27 21st Century on a 3D course and it shot flat and very fast.That bow would also shoot 700 gr. maple arrows at 192 fps.I've played around shooting light arrows for fun but always preferred shooting a hunting
weight setup.To each his own,just my opinion.
Well, I did some similar tests with my son for a science project and I can tell you that if all of the arrows don't have the same finish AND the same outside diameter than the test is invalid. If you shoot the same weight, same speed, and different ODs the one with the smaller OD will penetrate farther. :readit: It's all about friction and resistance.
Now, let's all talk about the difference between shooting into foam and shooting into tissue and blood... :bigsmyl:
ahahahah wow Terry, you were right, I'm digging this!
Keep em coming!!!!
Thus far it's Heavier in a steady lead!
give me heavy heavy heavy heavy heavy and again and again i love it cant get enough of heavy LOL!!!! :D :biglaugh:
Read Dr. Ashby's real research, then decide. I seem to recall he found that heavy arrows, even out of bows down to 45 pounds, penetrated much better. I shoot targets to get ready for hunting, so I'll stick with the heavys. For me hunting also means getting close, so the flat trajectory means doodly-squat to me.
Pass the popcorn Terry.
Heavy all the way.Shot some of the lightest arrows I've ever considered out of my first longbow last year #60 with 400 gr epic ST.Yes I shot some of scariest tight groups I may ever make at 35-40 yds.,but the handshock,noise,and vibrations were aweful.I now shoot a 650grs. Poplar arrow that penetrates foam better and makes my bow virtually silent with no handshock.No I dont shoot even as tight at 20 yds but traditional bowhunting IS a close range game.As far as penetration on real game, take a look at the Ashby reports and that'll answer all your questions.
Thought I'd chime in(this is gonna be good)
Just my 2cents
Personally, whatever gives you confidence to make a sure, clean kill is the better arrow.
For me that is arrows in the 7-9 gr/lb range. I hunt whitetails primarily and see no reason to go any heavier than that. I've read the Ashby reports and I feel that for BIG game his work has a lot of merit but for the creatures I hunt I don't need 650+ gr. arrows out of my 54# bow. I much prefer something in the 420-450 range. Just my opinion.
Chris
I am currently looking for a heavier arrow, but the ones i shoot now are tuned perfectly and penetrate great. I would rather have a lighter arrow(to a point) that is tuned great than a heavier arrow that is poorly tuned.
I shoot a 49# longbow with a 430grain arrow(8.7gpp) and I wouldn't want any lighter. I did pass completely through a 600# hog at 15yds.
My recurve is 55#'s with a 488grain arrow(8.8gpp) and I blew thorugh the scap and into the "goodies" on a 250# buck at 17yds last season.
I don't doubt you "could" go lighter, but I see no reason to. Trad gear isn't producing blistering speeds and high KE to begin with, might as well take advantage of the momentum.
with a "wheelie" bow, I shoot 5gpp with NO problems, but that is a whole different animal!
I shoot 11 grains per pound and when I was in Africa shooting critters in 2005 there was only 1 animal I shot where the arrow wasn't hanging out the other side or laying on the ground after passing through and that was an Eland that weighed 1300-1400 pounds. I broke ribs on both sides though. My PH was really impressed, he told me about an hour before I shot my first animal that he didn't think I could shoot my wide broadheads (Zephyr Sausquatch) through an animal. Then I shot a Red Hartebeest bull quartering away and the arrow blew through him and skipped across the ground on the other side. Heavy also equals quiet which when hunting is far more important than speed. Joseph
"Heavy also equals quiet which when hunting is far more important than speed".
How very very true.
I used to shoot very heavy arrows out of my 63# widow. Now I'm back to the 8/9grain area and like the flat shooting but I've still got plenty of weight to zip through critters and have a quite bow.
If I had a new 50th Widow I'd be doing what the widow lads ask to be done with the bow in there handbook. I'm sure the've testing the light arrow thing.
I am not good enough of a shot to shoot arrows that light.I am sure they would probably work fine for most of the stuff I hunt but I find them very unforgiving compared to meduim weight stuff.My release and form are just not up to pare to benifit from them on my typical hunting shots.
James makes a good point...when I'm having a "good day" I can shoot light/fast arrows very well. On an average day though I have some arrows that are way off the intended mark.
I've never really like heavy arrows and mostly hunt with and shoot 9-10 grains per pound regardless of the bow weight.
I did shoot a 90# pig last summer with a 380gr carbon arrow and 47# bow. I hit it good but the results were impressive...the arrow looked like it didn't even slow down and kicked up dust for 30 feet after exiting the pig.
humblehunter, I am not sure of your exact setup but the 350's may be to stiff, You might want to look at the 250's. Also if you are shooting a 60lb bow with a long drow (say 30+inches) it will shoot flat and have great penetration if you shoot around 9gpp.
Beer with that popcorn Tarz? :D
OK....let's not get off track here...this is not light vs heavy...... :scared: :scared: :scared:
OK, can't stand it...I'll chime in...out of popcorn anyway. :rolleyes:
"that it's old school thinking with new school technology and that this new stuff is better light."
OK......does than mean physics has been re-written?
Having coffee at the moment Rob.......bring the tecate for this evening would ya?
Quoteinsttech1: a limb takes a flight from its parent riser straight for the empty cranium of the speed freak ...
:knothead: :biglaugh: I LIKE that one! Really!
I tell for sure now that I've been too busy to keep up with things. How in the heck did I miss this thread?
Better start another pot of java and open another box of ceral for this one.
I have a question only somewhat related to light/heavy arrows more in line with where people usually go with this type of thread.
"The light arrow is bad for the bow thing"...we all know it is because someone told us. We all know it is because it might be logical...but has anyone ever done any testing to determine how true it is and to what point. Everyone regurgitates 8 - 10 grains...don't go below 8 or bad things will happen to you and all your decendants, but is there any testing?
What is the real limit...not what others in this thread repeat, or what BW will say when you call them...there might be some CYA built into the don't go below 8...just maybe
Quote"Pro shooter" means he is a target weinie.
:saywhat: The comment is not really appreciated, Tree Man.
bjk--
Has testing been done? Yes! Can I provide exact references and results--no!
Every bowyer's bow will handle SUPER light arra's in a different manner. Also, that same bowyer's bows, to the same spec's, may shoot that arrow fine from one bow, and blow up the next...
Why--because wood is wood, and grain structure is provided by nature...therefore hard to say some subtle grain defect won't become stressed to failure by the extra "snap" of the limbs without enough load (heavy-er arrow) to absorb the energy and impact from the string.
Look at oly limbs--they're shooting synthetic cores for a reason--stability, uniformity, consistency, production controls, and strength...
So yeah--the statement currently in vogue of "shooting arrows lighter than 9gpp will void your warranty" has some CYA built in...as those bowyers also have to pay for liability insurance!
Now for hunting situations--the heavy arrow will absorb more force, thereby attenuating vibration that would otherwise be induced into the limbs/riser--i.e. "hand shock".
That absorbing property also reduced noise, as the decibel level will be reduced if that energy isn't transferred back into the bow and the shooter's arm.
As for as penetration, you'll have to take that up with Dr. Ashby and his associated, quantifiable testing and reporting that he has so graciously provided for us...
Take Care,
Marc
Too bad, I would have liked to see some test results...I don't need to relearn the wood is wood and will behave differently based on arrow weight theory...that is all basic logic.
The same could be said about a bow with some subtle defect shooting a 12 grain arrow fine, but blowing when a 9 grain arrow is used.
I was looking for more facts related to the 8 grain limit (or what the true limit was for glass bows...maybe it really is 8)...just curious really...the light/heavy arrow, fast or slow discussions don't really interest me.
My question will only take the topic more away from its original intention, I think....back to the regularly scheduled program.
Mr. Green,
I belive you shoot arrow dynamics......not sure though. If I'm correct, that's one of the heaviest carbon arrows on the market. I think around 12-13 grains per inch. Do you use weight tubes or weight inserts, or extra heavy broadheads? I also THINK you shoot around 60#s. I've seen your shooting AND killing ability with your skill and equipment setup. What do you think?
MY SETUP: 60#, 62" Damon Howatt Hunter recurve (the older one) I like 125 grain magnus II two blade broadhead (cause I can find them all over, they are screw in, and easy to sharpen) I'm fixing to put a flemish string, cat wisker style silencers on. I shoot off the shelf.
ARROWS: I'm thinking about getting Carbon Express Heritage 350's full length and do O.L.'s bareshaft tuning with just the 125 FP. AND I also might try em with a 200grn insert + the 125 FP. with O.L.'s tuning.
Would this be a good arrow in your opinion?
Does anybody know if the CXH350's are higher FOC then other arrows?
Thanks for yalls thoughts and replies! Have a good one. HH
Hey ya Dillon, i grew up in OKC and am now living in Moore. I know every bow shop there is around here! and i betcha i can tell ya which shop told you that....because me and a friend were told the same thing!!! In fact he bought 3 dozen. (the ones with the custom red fletchings)
Now i aint bashing the Thunderstorms. They do just spit right out of a bow!!! In fact my friend traded me a dozen of them for my wife to use out of her 35# recurve. When you shoot them through a chrono your eyes will just bulge right out of your head because of the speed....BUT.....They are only 29" from the get go...they have a very light spine....(i was told they were developed for light weight and kids bows)....and they are noisy as all heck!
They also worried me about hurting my bow in the longrun which sure inst worth it to me!
I have only been shooting trad for about 2 yrs and have no blooded bows so I can't speak to the question from that perspective. However I have been an avid varmint hunter and reloader for most of my life so I have some knowledge in the area of speed versus wieght when it comes to penetration. there is always a point of trade off where the speed factor can no longer overcome the lack of mass. A good analagy is a toyota pickup with 1000 lbs of load can be stopped by your average guard rail from a speed of fifty five mph but the same rail will not stop a semi going only thirty mile per hour. Most dagerous game hunters (buffalo, rhino, elephant) have always opted for large heavy bullets at modest speeds. Now for my own philosophy..... I hunt for meat and dead is dead.
Doesn't matter to me if it was speed or mass that caused the death. I personally shoot a 55# modern r/d longboww with arrows in the 500 grn range give or take 10 either way. I shoot carbon cause it is more consistant than the wood arrows I am able to produce at this time. I don't know for sure how fast they are but they have been called fast by wheelie bow shooters at the range. My hope is that if I do my part and Odin is smiling on me I will have turkey pics to post next week.
I guess superlight is relative to bow weight.I just bought a 40# Black Widow PMAV and have tuned some Easton Epic 600's out of it that weigh 400gr.Now that's 10grpp and for whitetail deer,that setup should penetrate fine.I guess for my bow weight the 400gr is really a medium weight arrow.My bow is quiet and I'm shooting 170fps with that arrow.If the next guy shot the same 400gr arrow from his 60# bow,then it would be considered superlight and would probably be loud with possible bow damage.I do think that a 400gr shaft from a 60# bow would be a very fast arrow and would certainly be more than adequate for deer and hogs.I think 9-11 grpp is a good rule of thumb to keep a bow quiet and still have adequate arrow speed.
RayJ
I like 9 grains per lb. I use the same arrow on the 3-d and hunting. I just killed two hogs with a 397 grain arrow and snuffer heads out of a 47 lb longbow two weeks ago. 8.4 grains per lb I had pass through on both animals. I say shoot what flys straight. My experence with arrows are a straight arrow with a small shaft and stiff spine such as carbon arrows penatrate deeper. Just my own experience. I say if they hit where you look and they bare shaft tune shoot 'em.
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Wilson:
Quote"Pro shooter" means he is a target weinie.
:saywhat: The comment is not really appreciated, Tree Man. [/b]
My use of weinie was ill considered, perjorative, rude and unkind. I apologize. I should have just said that Pro-shooter means target shooter. I'm sorry.
Huntsmanlance,
you're right on man. Thats the place. I shoot those exact arrows from a 43#er and really like em. But I'm not comfortable with that arrow from a 60#er. They are fast and loud! I too was told they were for kid bows. Those arrows are TUFF SUCKERS THOUGH!
:smileystooges: