Stupid question from someone who has only done very little turkey hunting: Why is it that it's considered "wrong" to kill hens? I mean, we kill does right? Why not hens?
And another question, here in GA the regs specify only "gobblers" are legal. What would you consider a "gobbler"? And then, why not "jakes" too?
It doesn't seem to make sense as a management practice in areas with good turkey pops. In my area we have quite a few turkeys, actually lots of turkeys...but the mature gobblers get hit pretty hard by the end of the season.
Curious to hear your views, both those from my region and others....
Here Bearded birds are legal in the spring, hens and bearded in the fall. You kill the hens in the spring and you kill their clutches also which can out a damper on those good populations. But not everyone will be able to tell a bearded hen from a jake/tom so bearded is the guide.
JC:
Just my opinion, but during the spring season most hens are being bred or sitting on clutches. they are the future of the population. Alot of states allow hunting them in the fall when the young are old enough to survive on their own. And Jakes are for the most part easier to call than a mature tom, making them easier to kill.
Bob
Here in PA in our Fall season we can take a gobbler, hen or jake. To me any turkey is a trophy . Young gobblers are called jakes usually sporting a 2-3in beard.
:thumbsup:
JC, I think it's like it was in Ohio 25-30 years ago with deer. It was almost considered sacreligeous(sp) to kill a doe. Then, when the population of deer exploded, and the management practices were shown to work, then hunters changed their veiws on taking does. I think when the population of Turkey start to stablize and stay up, they'll loosen the regs a little bit. We, just in the past 10 years, have started to see Turkey more commonly here in the northern part of our state. It'll be interesting to hear other views on this.
I'm not against killing hens except in the spring when they're trying have to youngins. However, if the hen has a beard I'm gonna take it. Which is legal in Mo. Here in Mo. bird has to have a visible beard.
JC,
Up here we cannot take hens unless bearded. We are allowed two birds per year, must have beards. So, jakes are fair game. In my opinion, I like to take a mature bird first then the second bird a jake is the plan. Most guys that are die hard turkey hunters here, kill two birds. Do any of us need two big Gobblers, no! I like to leave a few gobblers, for the next guy that dosn't have one and they get bigger by next year. We have so few hunters that there are lots of birds that I see that are 4 to 7 years old. I shot a banded bird that was 7 1/2 yrs old few years back. A bearded hen I would not shoot, unless you are going to mount it why bother?
Yes, I certainly understand the "clutches" or tending young. But, again using here at home as a reference, you can kill a doe early in bow season that's still nursing a fawn. Not my cup of tea, but from a purely game management practice it's legal. We hunt deer while they are being bred and even pregnant. Curious why the turkey is looked at differently, at least here in GA. Could it be that turkey don't cause the "damage" deer do, and therefore the game laws are adjusted accordingly :rolleyes: (at least thats the conversation I had with someone yesterday that spurred this post).
As far as a fall season...aromakr made my point for me: why no fall seasons in many areas?
Kenny, I think that's certainly some of it here. One of my points with this question is to hear how many see it as "wrong culturally" to kill a hen...just because it's a hen.
In Georgia you can kill Jakes, can't kill hens, ever even if they sport a beard. No fall season. It can make for some tough huntin, but i believe it is best. I personally dont shoot jakes, just alot more fun to kill em as 2 year olds, but lots do "if he's gonna gobble like a 2 year old, strutt like a 2 year old, then he can die like a two year old" as the saying goes.
As far as hens, i dont know any state that allows killin em in the spring, it's the future, and with the high nest predation, (fire ants, possums, skunks, coons, yotes etc.) and probally more important rain and cool weather, the reproduction can vary dramatically from year to year. We need all the nesting birds you can get. I dont have numbers to support this but does probally have a much higher percentage of reproductive success. Plus the idea of shooting does was first a herd management tool to decrease the herd, now it's also used to increase the quality here in ga of the Herd (bigger bucks). With turkeys you generally dont have the same management goals, they generally are not causing millions of dollars in damage in the form of vehicle collisions and farm/crop damage, nor are they coming up in urban settings and eating mammas flowers. There may be some hassles with them but not near the problem that whitetails and humans have.
An arguement in favor of fall kills is a recent study that suggest turkeys reproduce at high levels until the region reaches capacity, with turkeys migrating to fill gaps, a higher kill, means the level maintains at under capacity, fooling the turkeys into higher reproduction rates, wich equals higher numbers of polts and therefor huntable turkeys in following years. On the other hand once capacity is reached the reproduction rates decrease and therefore the regions population experiences a slight decrease until it final levels off, (which they use to explain the recent reduction in ga turkey pop). So the idea is to keep the flock at just below capacity by means of spring and fall hunting kills, this fools the turkey into higher reproduction and has a flock above capacity for the hunting seasons. This study has not been accepted across the board yet, but will be interesting how it turns out.
Jakes actually in my experience are harder to kill than a 2 year old, but when they do come they often come in tandem, and dont really put on the show the older boys do. You can shoot 3 a season in ga and all in one shot if you want, which is often possible especially if your toting a shotgun, they often will jump on downed birds even after a blast from a gun. A jake with a stick and string is for sure an accomplishment. I just like to see em as 2 year olds put on a show.
I think much of it is holdover from times when building populations was the goal and there has been no drive to change it in those places. We have a very robust turkey population here. We are allowed two bearded birds in the spring and one either sex in the fall. Flocks of 100 are quite common.
TW, you hit it on the head as far as I'm concerned. 1)turkeys don't cause as much damage and that DOES play a part in our game regs. 2)many places in GA have reached carrying capacity according to some biologist estimates so "flock growth" may not necessarily be the best practice for more birds. 3)a fall hunt would be in order for any place with healthy pops. I actually saw more turkey than deer from my stands this year and we have a TON of deer.
TW, are you sure you can kill "jakes"...the regs say "gobbler" but don't define what that is...another grey area in GA's game regs.
Yes, I'm positive about the jakes, I hunt with some dnr guys some and have seen them take jakes before, not that that means anything. Also have been on some quota hunts up at dukes creek (which if you have a chance put in for) and seen jakes checked.
It is the same as a spike being a buck, a jake is a gobbler, just another word to clarify just what kind of gobbler, a juvinile, Would be the same as saying i shot a 2 year old (8"+ inch beard, 1" or less spurs), 3 year old(8"+ beard, 1"+ spurs), or in this case a jake (not full fan, short beard, stubs for spurs).
Gobbler simply denotes Male turkey, Jake is just a clarification. Just like a Jenny is a Hen, only a juvinile.
yep...and if you have a fall season you have ever jackleg in the woods with a rifle shooting hens from 300 yards.
Opportunistic slaughter, in my opinion. Many worked too hard to have the turkey wiped off the face of the earth in GA by folks not out there TO hunt turkey.
That makes perfect sense...I just hate how our regs can be "interpreted" instead of being clear.
So is the age measurement you state an accurate description or anecdotal experience? Meaning, if you shoot a 10" beard and 1 1/4 are you SURE it's not a 2 year old? Not questioning you...I told ya, I don't know much about turkeys. I guess from what you write it's not like ungulates where you can't tell the age of the deer by the size of the horn.
Ray, why would that be? Why not just during bow season?
You guys can hunt turkey with a rifle?
Shotguns, bows, and ANY muzzleloader (even scopes).
Bow/shotgun only up here. Wouldn't take very long to fill tags if you could use a rifle/muzzleloader if so inclined.
I'm not a big fan of the muzzle loading allowance...a modern scoped muzzle loader is an easy 200 yard weapon. In the woods with camoed hunters :scared: ....surprised no one has been killed here, at least as far as I know.
West Virginia allows rifles for their turkey seasons. Not a big fan of allowing them for turkeys myself.
Turkey hunting is not really management like deer hunting is in many places. There are no carrying capacity issues involved and turkeys aren't the safety or depredation concern like deer. Turkey hunting is pretty much recreational. Turkeys are still on the rebound in Indiana so it would be counterproductive to kill hens in the spring. They are legal in the fall and I'd kill one without hesitation.
JC....I recently returned from Ga. and I must agree with you about the clarity of the regs. I was surprised to learn that Turkey is considered big game. I had the opportunity to hunt with my nephew on his lease....a total of about 800 acres, 98 percent of which was clear cut. Made for tough hunting for sure. I had one coming in for him, but he was sure it was a fellow lease member so we backed out....sure enough, his buddy wasnt even in that section of woods.LOL.
Here in NY, it is two males in the spring season, and then two either sex birds in the fall. I know most of the guys around here have no problems shooting a hen in the fall.
JC...here in NY, toms and jakes are legal in the spring. Anything goes in the fall. I personally don't see anything wrong in harvesting either sex. How else are you going to control the numbers and believe me, turkeys are increasing here in NY.
10% of hens have beards we have our fair share around here, they are legal to shoot in NY spring or fall. I would not want to kill one in the spring for obvious reasons i have killed them in the fall, as far as killing Jake's to each his own i myself see nothing wrong with it. I guess it's like just shooting a big buck thing, everyone has there own goals set before they go out into the woods, as a matter of fact if i get one into bow range this season I'm shooting.
JC, A few years ago I asked a GA G&F officer about why there isn't at least a fall hen season and he told me that the state was trying to become the Mecca for turkey hunting in the US and they didn't want to reduce the hens because of that. Seems dumb to me. It is unnatural for gobblers to chase after a hen anyway so if the hen population gets too large, the gobblers won't have to travel at all to find a hen. They will be able to fall out of their roost right on top of a hen. Pat
In New Hampshire you are allowed to shoot any bearded bird in the spring, and also shoot hens or toms in the fall with a bow.......with all that has been said, one of my most cherished trophies and memories is a bearded hen I shot two years ago with the Little Delta Bow, that spring and that hunt rivals any other hunt I have ever had.
David
JC
No, i'm not a biologist, not sure of the correct way to age a turkey, i think they do it by looking at feathers but not sure.
However, anyone can feel pretty confident in aging a jake, 2 year old and then older than 2 but then it becomes a guessing game for all of us that dont have advanced degrees in biology.
Turkey hunting is my favorite, and North East Georgia just adds to the majic of it for me!
It has been my experience with a trad bow in hand Jakes ain`t stupid.As a matter of fact I`m going hunting in the morning and if the Good Lord sends a Jake by I`m gonna try and gaff`em.
I have seen Turkeys expand here in the south the last 15-20 years and understand why you can`t shoot hens down here. When I first started Turkey hunting if you did not have a lease on the Altamaha you did not have Turkeys or at least on a river swamp.I have seen Turkeys expand to farm land and creeks because of restocking and management.One of the first birds I called for a friend had a band on his leg.
I could kill hens at will with a gun here in south Ga. Spring or Fall and the wonderful Turkey hunting we have now would go to crap in just a few short years. I can`t speak for middle or north Ga. because I have not hunted there but down here if you opened a fall season for guns you would soon think of now as the good old days of Turkey hunting because the would be cut down and wised up.Just my opinion,RC.
I wouldn't say wrong...except in the context of the wrong season. We have two seasons in CA. Fall and Spring. Fall is either sex including beardless jakes; one bird limit in possession. Spring is bearded, 3" long minimum, jakes or toms; three bird limit in possession. Simple as that for me. If it is legal to take according to my state's regs, then I'll take it if the opportunity presents.
No Fall season here in SC at all.....Gobbler or hen.Probably never will be.It was explained to me that a fall season would be during deer season,and they are afraid too many slobs,and by slobs I mean those that have no regard for the regs,would take advantage of the opportunity even if they were using a rifle for deer hunting.Just no way to be able to enforce......
Although we have a 5 bird limit per season.......
I think if the DNR says it's okay to take hens,or jakes,then it's alright with me.
I personally don't shoot jakes anymore,although I have.I've killed 2 jakes in my turkey hunting career,1 was my first bird ever almost 20 years ago,and the other was an accident when he stepped in front of the Gobbler.
I prefer to hunt the mature birds,more of a challenge for me.....................which is strange if I think about it,because I'll take a spike buck in a heartbeat without a second thought.
I'll let a first time hunter take a jake if the chance arises,and have done it before.
I think as long as it's legal it shouldn't be an issue,as well as if someone chooses not to......to each his own.
Never shot a hen, but I would if I had a permit to do so in the fall. The jakes I shot have all tasted great coming out of the smoker, as have the longbeards. I've killed 2 with a .410, and missed two with my selfbow over the years, along with the shotgunned ones. Looking to hunt with my T/D recurve or selfbow this year, jake or longbeard.
Only kill a JAKE instead of a mature gobbler IF
. . . you want the best eatin'. There is NO COMPARISON.
J.C.
I don't usually respond here-normally I ask questions and once I even got an answer. However, I agree that the turkey/ deer regs don't equate and the turkey here in Kentucky do every bit as much agricultural"damage" as deer. We can kill either sex in the Fall and males only in Spring. A bearded hen is usually forgiven. I think the issue is one that is evident across the govt. board. One answer just doesn't fit all scenarios around most questions, but I believe most WMAs will eventually slap their collective foreheads and say, "Wow these things are doing great, ya'll can hunt'em all." Hunter's who buy tags and hunt within generally accepted ethical guidelines have never been the core problem for game management. I suppose the presence of clearly stated laws and regulations make it easier for the authorities to prosecute poachers, game hogs, and thrill killers so the sportsman ends up regulated to the nth degree. Oh well, small price to pay; ask some Europeans. Might be overzealous but it protects our(sportsmen's) interest so I can live with it. And I've never killed a doe(but would) and only gun hunted(never again-cept maybe quail or rabbits w/my kids) in two seasons over twenty-five years ago.
Grant
Thanks for all your replies and input guys, great discussion and regional views.
Troy, just keep that yeller stave away from me and everything will be just fine :rolleyes: . Not really hot on turkeys, just got my wheels turning after a conversation with a turkey fanatic and wanted to see what other like minded hunters thought.
I'm sure a bow only fall season would be a viable hunting opportunity here in Ga...but as you and Ray both said, the local gun hunters would never hear of it.
Dtala....What was it Tom Kelly said in The Tenth Legion? Something like..."a man that takes a turkey with a bow should get to wear a sign that says I'm a better man than you are. And I'd surely step off of the sidewalk and tip my hat when such a man passed me by." :biglaugh:
I fall hunted with my Dad when we still had a fall season in the SC upstate. It's different but neat. Darn shame regs have to be made on a "slob management" basis.
JC, VERY INTERESTING THREAD AND A GREAT READ. Don
I passed a bearded hen (legal here in Iowa) last year and then shot her two weeks later. Any turkey with a stick n string is a miracle. Well, that is with my shooting, JC you could probably HIT them on purpose. Good luck on your spring hunt.
Heck no!!!
In Texas we can take hens and gobblers in the fall and gobblers only in the spring. We are allowed 4 turkeys a year in 153 counties and 1 a year in 11 counties. So need to check regs for county you hunt in for bag limit.
I like to take gobblers, but will take a hen in the fall and a jake. Not as tough eating.