I keep seeing parallel shafts, tapered shafts, and BARREL tapered shafts! What in the world am I missing?
Could someone please explain to me the difference?
Jeff
Parrell= same diameter whole length
barrell = tapered on both ends
Tapered = usually tapered on the nock end. Like from 11/32 down to 5/16 lets you use a 5/16 nock and have better clearence from the bow and less finger pinch on the nock between fingers.
My opinion is that I like the 5/16 nock part other wise if spined correctly I don't see much difference in shooting.
Ron
Thanks Mac----your a good man. A Gentleman and a Scholar.
Jeff
From draft 1 of my new Chapter for TBB4 on arrows: (y'all get a sneak peak) ;)
Although all natural arrow shafting such as cane/bamboo/reeds and shoots are full length tapered, called bob-tailed, being naturally larger at one end and tapering straight their full length to the other end, once split timber shafting became available, it allowed for other types of shafting to be made. Parallel shafting is where there is no tapering at all to the shaft with all sides running parallel to each other the full length of the shaft. Breasted tapered shafts have the last seven to ten inches reduced in diameter improving flight characterisitics and fletching wear without reducing spine. Barrel tapered shafting is where the shafting is thickest in the center then tapers down on both ends. Sometimes used for flight arrows to lighten the arrow without reducing spine. Of course bob-tailed or tapered arrow shafting where the arrow is thickest at one end and follows a straight taper for the entire length of the shaft, just like a natural cane/bamboo/reed or shoot shaft, can be made from split timber shafting as well. Tapered shafting improves both flight characteristics and reduces weight and spine as compared to a parallel shaft.
So, for hunting arrows I should be using parallel shafts, right?
Jeff
LOL well I use tapered arrows (or bob-tailed arrows) and breasted arrows because I shoot non centershot longbows and selfbows and the tapered arrows clear the riser better and provide more fletch clearance, but if you shoot a centershot or near centershot riser on a recurve or hybrid traditional bow you could certainly shoot parallel shafts. The majority of traditional archers do.
I use a modified barrel tapered shaft for hunting and shooting. Once I find an arrow that works well, I don't like to change from target arrows to hunting arrows. I taper the point end of my arrows just a bit. I do this to insure that the shaft is just smaller in diameter than the ferrule of the broadhead. I taper the nock end to 5/16th of an inch over the last 10" of the shaft.
Stan
Mickey:
I think you need to do some more research, your discription of Breasted tapered is not correct!!!
Bob
So is it not a good idea to use parrallel shafts on a bow thats not centershot?
Bob just googled it and this is what I found. You have a source that disputes?
http://members.aol.com/tradbowmd/archdict.htm
Bow'n Dictionary of
Traditional Archery Terms
breasted arrow / An arrow where the last 7-10 inches of the nocked end (the breast) is tapered (e.g., from 23/64 to 5/16) to improve flight characteristics and feather wear. Especially helpful for longbows (which are not center shot).
breast / The area of the shaft forward of the fletching and about six to nine inches from the nock.
WOW!! So, who wants to build me some breasted arrows?
On an interesting side note according to mythology the Amazons were a race of women who removed one breast to make for more clearance when shooting their bows. An arrow tapered in the last 10" would also have this same effect at full draw. Coincidence? LOL
hehe...
Mickey:
You need to read "Target Archery" By Dr. Robert Elmer,1946. A breasted taper is similar to a barreled shaft, the difference being the parallel (or fat)section of the arrow is moved towards the nock end. In other words you have a shorter taper on the nock end than you do on the point end. Lengths of those tapers can vary quite a lot. I have arrows in my collection where the nock end taper is only 4-5 inches to as much as 8-9". The "Breast" is so named because thats the portion of the arrow that rests against the strike plate, when the arrow is nocked and before the string is drawn.
Bob
I read Target Archery by Elmer years ago, but I have trouble retaining lots of technical info, which Target Archery contains. I have the same problem with Hardy's Longbow Book.
So you're saying instead of the 7-10" that I stated (and which was listed in the terms dictionary)that Elmer says it's what? 5-9"? Seems there is variation and room for interpretation there no matter whose figures I use.
If the breast truly sits against the strike plate then for most bows the fat portion of the "breast" would have to be from approx 6 1/2 -9" as listed n the definition of "breast" above wouldn't it? (assuming a brace height of from 5 3/4" for a longbow to 7 3/4" for a recurve plus X" for a portion of the width of the riser )
I have read nowhere that a breasted arrow is tapered towards the tip as well as the nock (which I would consider a version of barrel tapering), but in the interest of fact I will keep researching and will amend my writings if I find evidence of such.
Thanks for the homework Bob :saywhat:
Good stuff as far as history goes. The cheapest grade Easton aluminum shaft made 45 or 50 years ago will shoot rings around any wood arrow that was ever built or can be built today. With the quality of wood today I just don't see how much you can gain with other than parallel unless you are a World Class competitive shooter and looking for the lightest shaft for the spine you require. I like tapered and barrelled though cause they look cool :archer: :) ...Van
Van on a glass bow cut to within 1/8" of center or less I would agree with you that no one would be much able to notice. However on a non center shot bow it doesn't take that much to notice the difference. Those who have tried river cane shafts (which are full length tapered by their very nature) have, to a man, noticed how the shafts will fly cleaner from a variety of weight bows, the reason being they recover quicker from paradox and have more shaft clearance than a parallel tapered shaft.
Aluminum tubing was another invention, like fiberglass, that caused a giant leap forward in archery here in the states due to the increased accuracy made available by centershot bows and straight arrows of like spine and weight. The next giant leap forward IMO was the Berger button designed by Vic Berger which reduced and counteracted somewhat the paradox.
Ferret, I must say that I've never shot a river cane shaft, tapered or non-tapered. And probably won't ever do so :bigsmyl: So I must take your word for it. :D I think we were talking about current wood shafting that most folks would be shooting these days if not shooting aluminum or carbon :goldtooth: ...Van
Mickey:
First I think we have to realize that modern archery is hundreds of years old, and many of the terms we used were coined hundreds of years ago. In fact the word breasted (or chested) was first written in Toxophilus in 1545 by Roger Ascham, a bow in that time would have a brace heigth (fistmele) of about 6" and the recurve was not even a part of the scene. Elmer describes breasted as the thickest (part of the shaft) at the breast and tapers both ways. Barrelled being thickest in the middle differing from the breasted type in having the swelling farther forward. Page 280 paragraph 4. In paragraph 3 he states. "One might suppoose that the narural form of a Stele (shaft) would be cylindrical throughout, but I cannot recall having ever seen an arrow of this type made by what might be called archer races of men. In fact, I think they are almost uniquely a product of modern american manufacture."
Several people on this and other sites have stated they see no difference in performance of tapered and parallel shafts. Elmer goes on to state. "Breasted arrows are very similar to barrelled. They may not be quite as stiff in the longer foreshaft but the difference is negligible. Their advantagous features is that they apparently fly with a lower trajectory than either barrelled or parallel arrows of the same weight. In some recent test at 100 yards Bill Jackson found that breasted arrows consistently grouped a half a target higher than barrelled or paralled ones, when he had used every effort to make them otherwise alike" Remember Elmer is talking target archery, which means the American or York round using 48" mats, half a target is then 24". This tells me the arrow is overcoming paradox faster creating less drag on the arrow, thus printing higher on the target.
I can hear the cries now, But I don't shoot at animals at 100 yards, no either do I but the arrow spinning on its axis at impact equates to deeper penetration.
Hope this helps, didn't mean to get on the soap box, but I want to make sure when people write articles and books they get the facts correct. There is an old saying that is so true. "When you tell an un-truth enough it eventually becomes fact"
Bob
I understand Bob, but as Van suggested we have totally hijacked this thread with this discussion.
I can promise you I'll do my best to make my chapter as truthful as I can, using lots of research methods and texts in the process. If I can find other research that backs up what Mr Ashram says great, and I'll keep digging, but so far the only other research that I have located that describes breasted arrows states it somewhat differently.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Mickey, My past understanding of breasted seems opposite of Bob's-To whit --- That the fat section is somewhat forward of center but I agree/have always understood that breasted are tapered more than just at the rear 7-10 inches-Your linked web site is just wrong on this one.
QuoteOriginally posted by JBiorn:
WOW!! So, who wants to build me some breasted arrows?
Go here, I use & like their Sitka Spruce tapered, breasted, or parallel shafts. They are super people to deal with too. Bill G.
http://www.hildebrandarrowshafts.com/
I have since found 2 sources that back up Bob scource and an additional source that backs up the source I quoted.
Treemans definition is yet another description differing from all the ones I've read so far.
Man definitons on this are all over the place.
I see Hawknests source tapers both directions on the breasted arrows as well with a 12" nock taper and a 10" point taper which would put the fat part of the shaft well in front of the strike plate
"BREASTED 11/32 (barrel) tapered to 9/32" on the nock end and 5/16 on the point end. The nock taper is a little longer (12") than the point taper (10")
confusing eh?
I'll throw another stick on the fire but I'll do it timidly, as I am not an authority on arrows nor archery history. I have read and heard more along the lines of Bob's definitions, which seem to have an earlier origin, than I have seen Mickey's original sources. But I have heard them both and as Mickey said "definitions on this are all over the place." To that end I will add another printed version that I have on my shelf, Mickey and Bob have probably seen this one as well.
Adolph Shane wrote, in 1936, "Arrow shafts may be (1) cylindrical, in which the shaft is of the same diameter throughout its length; (2) barreled, in which it is of somewhat larger diameter at the middle than at the ends; (3) chested, in which it tapers from the nock end to the pile end; and (4) bobtailed, in which it tapers from the pile end to the knock end."
"Archery Tackle, How To Make & How To Use It" by Adolph Shane, 1936. Copyrighted and republished in 1990 by Bois d'Arc Press.
How's that for stirring the pot? With all due respect to Mickey and Bob for your knowledge, experience, and genuine interest in finding the "truth" of course.
All of us build upon what has been passed down from before our tenure. Sometimes we change it along the way. Mickey, maybe after all of your homework you will end up writing some on the origins and evolution of terms over time? Sorry, did I just make your project bigger?
...and Roberts quoting Ascham on forms of an arrow....
http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/english_bowman/html/156.htm
and if that link isn't good enough then buy your own copy for $600.
http://www.biblio.com/books/53914353.html
Just to clarify what I meant(Probably hopeless-haha) What Hildebrand is calling a breasted shaft is what I have always refered to as breasted also. However I have read the quote from Elmer that Bob referenced and recognized that it is different than my idea of the "proper definition", Elmer is an historic authority and thus Bob is right even though the other definition that I embraced has also been used by others. It gets pretty confusing but many sources at least agree that breasted means more than simply tapered at the nock end only.
My dad used to buy what was called a "double breasted shaft" from some company in Oregon back in the 70s by the thousands that was tapered from 23/64 to 5/16 at the nock and shorter 23/64 to 11/32 at the point. The definitions are confusing no doubt. But the fact is definitions of words and terms and language itself evolves over time. The current definition of the word "gay" versus the 19th century definition is a striking example. Mickey, your chapter might not only sort out the historical definitions, but what is the currently accepted definition of these terms. Just my 2 cents, but this is a very interesting discussion. Can't wait to read TBB4 when it come out. dino
Dang Forrester I forgot how hard it was to read old English with S's that appear similar to be F's and fo forth ha ha
(3) chested, in which it tapers from the nock end to the pile end;
or in other words the opposite of bob tailed..yes that is yet another definition I had not heard of
BTW I have heard of guys making and using cane arrows with the butt end of the shaft as the nock end and tapering to the tip as in the description above.
but all this research is fun No?
Yes I too believe definitions and IDEAS about what will work change.(the reason for TBB's in the first place and particularly the new TBB4 which will cover what has been learned ..or maybe re-learned for those that believe nothing new has been discovered about archery in the last 15 years) I have read in several references including Aschams that certain tapers on arrows will make the arrow fly left or right when from modern experience is pure hogwash
Dino I have heard of "double breasted" but again have found no historical reference to them yet.What you are describing is what Ascram would describe simply as a chested or breasted arrow.
Here's a fun thought running through my head...Ascham prints his book with its various definitions. Is it possible a definition he printed was in error? and I wonder if anyone disageed with any point or definition he made and emailed him (wrote him a letter)and called him on it? ha ha ha ha
Thanks all for you input fellows, I am enjoying this immensly, even if it is confusing me and adding to the work load ha ha
As far as I'm concerned this thread was not hijacked because all responses are in an attempt to answer the question at hand. We should all be so lucky as to have our threads "hijacked" in this manner. Pretty good stuff.
I agree totally DarkeGreen----This has been very educational.
And thank you Bill for the link to Hildebrand!
I think I'll go build some popcorn and watch this thread a while.
Jeff
LOL well, like in most things ...bow building, arrow making, knife making...well ANY kind of building or making really, I have never professed, and will never profess, to being any kind of expert or authority..I am simply a student, studying and absorbing information gathered by those who have gone before me.I love this stuff and have for 50 years so anything about it's history fascinates me and entertains me. I am a huge collector and collect bows, arrows, arrowheads, indian artifacts, leather goods, books and periodicals.
As I've said many times "There is always someone who knows more than you, and always someone who knows less than you... so you can always learn, and you can always teach".
So, how do you deal with the taper when fletching? I fletch with a Jo-Jann jig. Is it going to cause a problem with feather contacting the shaft evenly?
Have I misinterpreted your query? I think information you seek is found in the following Acrobat downloads of Ashby's experiments on this web site.
2004 Update 2
2005 Update 2 (pertains to "extreme" FOC arrows, a facet of, but not explicitly about, shaft shape)
Hope this helps.
Its interesting that there are so many different discriptions of the same shaft. I will again have to quote Ascham, as I believe he is the person that coined the term "Chested" arrow, chested was later changed to breasted. Having read Elmer's many books on Archery, I know how much of a stickler he was on the discription's of archery terms and am sure his research was quite thorough.
Bob
Mickey:
I did a little more research on my end. I have three arrows in my collection made by F.H. Ayres and Joseph Feltham. Both of these were professional fletchers in England. Feltham from 1861-1889 and Ayres from 1889 to early 1900's. All of these arrows are what I call breasted. One arrow is 28 5/8" BOP with a nock end taper of 8" and Point taper of 14". One is 27 3/4" BOP with 8 1/2" taper on nock end and 14" on the point. both of those are Ayres. The Feltham is 28" BOP and 7 3/4" taper on nock end and 14 1/4"" on the Point.
Hope this helps.
Bob
Sounds like you have a historic and great arrow collection Bob. I'm jealous. All my stuff is historic US with the oldest going in to the mid 1800's, but those are native american and are shoot shafts. I have lots from the 1930's on up.
I have some flight arrows I need ot measure to see where the tapers lie at. Now these taper front and back but I don't remember whether it is even or different at each end.
this is a good thread I'll have to come back to it later.
Mickey,
I love your quote at the top of this page, thats good stuff. This is also a good discussion keep it coming.
Cody
Bob,
Reading through "Archery: Its Theory and Practice" by Horace Ford I see that he defines a chested arrow as taper from nock to pile where the pile is the smallest. When did "chested" become "breasted" and when did breasted begin to have two tapers (nock and point)? It seems from the books that I have "chested" has only one continuous taper not a double taper. dino
Dino:
I don't know when the term was changed, but Ascham talks about chested arrows being tapered at both ends and thickest in the chest in his book "Toxophilus" written in 1545. When I look in "Target Archery's" Glossary under Chest, chested arrow. It says, See breast, breasted arrow
When you look under "Breast" it says "The portion of the arrow, about a fistmele from the nock" Under "Breasted arrow" it says "An arrow thickest at the breast"
On page 280 "Elmer" says "Continuing our interrupted lesson in nomenclature: A cylindrical or parallel shaft is the kind just described, even though the shaftmond be tapered. A breasted or chested shaft is thickest at the breast and tapered both ways. A barrelled shaft is thickest in the middle; differing from the breasted type in having the swellling farther forward and less curtailed in length.
On page 282 he states,"Before the time of Horace Ford probably a majority of English arrrows were barrelled. So were those of the United Bowmen of a century ago that were copied after the English. I have both English and United Bowmen arrows of that period that taper down to 3/16" at the pile. Due to the complere misunderstanding of the action of an arrow which he displays in his book-acriticism justified by high-speed moving pictures-Ford greatly overestimated the diviation effect of all tapered arrows and advocated only the cylindrical."
Elmer goes on to quote a passage from "Arab Archery". The preference which the vast experience of the East awards to the barrelled arrow should not be overlooked by American Fletchers. The four kinds described are obviously the barrelled, breasted, cylindrical and bobtail. "The broad-breasted arrow is of two kinds. One has the first third of the arrow thin, the second third thick and the final third terminating with the nock thin like the first. This kind is used by the Egyptians and by many in the East and is by far the best kind of arrow. The second kind of thick-breasted arrow has the first half of the shaft thin and the other half thick up to the plaace of the feathers, where it becomes thin again. The arrow of even thickness is pared uniformly, being of the same size from its head to the place of the feathers, where it becomes thin. In this connection we might say that all archers are agreed that the place of the feathers should be thin in all kinds of arrows"
I've checked my copy of "Archery the technical side" by Klopsteg, Nagler & Hickman and find nothing on shaft shape. Does anyone have a copy of "Arab Archery"?
Bob
Bob there is obviously enough evidence to indicate that breasted or chested arrows have a dual taper so I have amended my description. Thanks for your input.
So, no dice on someone building me some?
Jeff
Jeff:
sent email.
Bob
Rats! No e-mail.
Jeff
Jeff:
Sent private message, we will try it that way.
Bob