In the April/May issue of TBM in the Primitive Bowhunter section, the article called "The Unbearable Lightness of Arrows", written by Dave Sigurslid, mentions that shooting an arrow with 14.83 pound-feet per second momentum is the minimum amount needed to break the nearside ribs of a buffalo. That makes me curious about approximate arrow weight and bow poundage typically used by the American Indians who hunted buffalo. Does anyone know?
Also, if anyone has any other information about American Indian hunting methods such ground stalking techniques, drives, calling, tracking etc., it would be interesting to hear about it.
Indians shot bows form 40 to 90 pounds although the heavyweights were pretty rare..mostly beween 40 and 45# @ 24". Arrows of that size and materials used would weigh between 350 and 500 grains.
I don't think they worried about breaking buffalo rib bones, they just shot them between the ribs ;)
Earlier peoples, as little as 150 years ago, hunted by different rules and I believe, had different shots than we take. Example, when the plains indians developed horse skills, their shots were probably almost point blank. Another strategy that was used a lot by man, especially those without horse culture, was to drive the animals into a surround or off a cliff. Doesn't take much of a cliff for an animal that size to break a leg or two, making them much easier to approach for that finishing shot.
I am guessing shots were very short.
ChuckC
Differt buffler.
Sigurslid (and Ashby) are refering to Water Buffalo ribs(and to a lesser extent Cape Buffalo since Ashby did a little testing on those). The American Bison is more lightly boned and has more space between the ribs. Reportedly the prefered shot of the Plains Amerindian was from behind the short-ribs quartering forward to rupture the diaphrahm and travel on into the lungs.
That light and fast arrows, heavy and slow arrows, heavy and fast arrows and light and slow arrows all work is undeniable. I am convinced that heavy is advantageous (even if slow) and Ashby's research tends to confirm that. Ultimately, lethality can never be reduced to formulae.
Oh boy, here we go.
After being around bison for several years and shooting several with arrows I tend to believe that the American Indain was mostly concerned with just getting an arrow into the bison somewhere. Typically a wounded bison will "hole" up pretty quick and IMO the Indain being on a different time schedule than us and not constrained by our "code of ethics" was just concerned with the end result. If it took a few hours to secure that pile of meat so be it. In a similiar survival situation I'd not be nearly as concerned with a quick clean kill as getting something to eat.
As far as the point blank shooting from horse back I'm sceptical of that also. Bison are incredibly agile and fast. Your typical horse is going to have a very hard time running down an adult bison in the wide open spaces. We've used horses a few times to move or "herd" our bison and unless you want a complete runaway it can only be done from a respectable distance. Ussually after a few hours your horse is completely done in and the bison are just starting to enjoy the "game". I'm not saying it didn't happen but IMO just not on a regular basis.
I think Mickey is mostly right, on a decent sized bull the rib cage wall may be 4" thick. Lots of meat and hide to go thru with primitive equipment. Hard as it is to believe of the probably 30+ arrows we've sent into ribcages of bison I've only seen one center a rib. That was a stone point that broke at the haft on impact.
It aint purdyand I'm certianly not advocating it but think about it... most animals can recover from a marginal chest wound but what are the survival rates from even a poorly placed sharp stick thru the guts.
I would agree with Doug on this, American Indian's didn't worry about " one shot, one kill ", many historical accounts state that Abo's would have 2-3-4 arrows in the air at the same time. Ventalate a critter's body enough, and track it down. Buff drops/falls over a cliff or into a ravine/wash-out were used to great effect, most have Buff on the bottom of the pile that couldn't be reached because of the number of animals on top of them. Group hunting was the main method of making meat. And remember that the Bow has only been around here in North America for 1200-600 years, depending on location. Spear's were used for over 10,000 years in N.A. and the Abo's did just fine.
Just imagine being of the Clovis people and slipping up on a wooly mammoth with a sharp rock tied on a stick :scared: :scared: Yep I'd go for the less threatening end of the critter!
A great mammoth ambush site was discovered near Ocala, Florida on the Silver River. The skeletal remains were from a juvenile. Artifacts from this site are on display at The Silver River Museum. Neat stuff.
From what I have read, most of the theories here are correct. Somewhere I have seen a breakdown on average bow length and weigh of various native people. I remember thinking how light they were. The bows were also shot and the cast was measured. I will have to dig for that table.
I bet those hungry camp dogs came in handy on blood trails.
Indians killed to survive . They were not hunting for "sport" When your very survival is dependant on what you kill , ethics means nothing.
Betcha everyone one of us would gladly "cheat" to kill something if we were stranded in a wilderness area and hungry !!!!! :campfire:
how true bro thats for sure :archer:
Heck I live off a small disability check; and meat is dependant on my shooting and hunting abilities; that does not drive me away from ethics.
I think that time is the key here. In the winter the deer and elk slow down and are easier to hunt; more predictable; and you can see well enough to shoot at night with a full moon- especially against a snowy background.
They didn't have to drive home after the hunt; they could pitch a tent right in the middle of critter country; and shoot whatever came close enough.
The sheepeater indians have rock blinds that still exist; and when they fooled a bighorn; they did it at really close range.
Time for us is the set season we are allowed to hunt in- for them it was opprotunity.
I have shot deer with an obsidian head; and it was a horrible wound that killed the deer.
I have read the war records of an army doctor; where one guy was shot 18 times in the chest with arrows in one battle- and survived.
Nobody survived a gut hit.
I have always believed that the indians were just like us- they would do what they had to.
I think their bows being light and arrows short is probably best explained by a bowyer who makes bows duplicating them.
If I shot an elephant; I would shoot for a liver shot; an angling forward shot; I bet a lot of bison bit the dust that way.
But figure if they got into a herd; and got a quiver full of shots; they had work to do on the ones that dropped that made up for the time needed for the others to drop.
You can see a dead bison a long ways away; and I just bet many indian kids tried their best to be the first to spot one.
Ishi liked close shots.
So....do I :)
:campfire: :archer:
As usual, there's lot's of interesting feedback here at Tradgang. I wonder what the Indians might have done for scent control when stalking deer and elk. I suppose they may have smeared animal parts or dirt on themselves to cover their scent. I often thought about Indians hunting at night when there was a full moon, especially in the Winter. I've never had to hunt because of my life having to depend on it, but I sure admire the abilities of those who did.
You smell like what you eat...Also the Natives would wash in the water & dry themselves with dirt, natureal cover scent and they played the wind.
Great thread...Alot of American Indian cultures made use of the sweat-lodge before the hunt,they didn't eat for days before-hand, and also rubbed their bodies with sage,other herb's,and dirt. They also used skin's to cover them selves for "Camo", a deer head and thick brush, they would pop-up and down and draw the deer closer. And wolf skin's to crawl up close to a Buff herd. Women and childeren used throwing-stick's for small game, traps for bird's, fish, etc. Time...it's not what it used to mean, when your very life is dependant on downing game, any and all methods were used, driving, poison, hunting at night, hook's to snag in thick brush, pit-traps... beaver were killed not with traps, but by tearing into a lodge and clubbing the critter's...The Abo's knew the habits of all game animals and used that knowledge to their advantage. Buck's, Bulls, were not the favored animal to kill, Fat is the hardest thing to get in the wild(and the most needed for it nutrition) and they would take females over males anyday... Poor bull, Fat cow
FYI, there is an excellent book about the weapons of American Indians. It's called American Indian Archery, by Reginald and Gladys Laubin. Great info there if you can find a copy.
I found where the book American Indian Archery, by Laubin, Reginald; Lanbin, Gladys can be found for $14.00 at this link:
http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=0806123877
Thanks again everybody for all the interesting comments.
Good thread. That book is a great read!
He covers west to east and long to short.
I found a copy in the local library.
I'm wondering about the 'string' material the Amerindians used and how quiet they were?
Billy, I believe I heard somewhere that the Indians made their strings from sinew.
On another thought, I wonder if any tradgangers ever tried to re-live the experience of our ancient brothers-of-the bow by trying to shoot a buffalo while chasing them on horseback. Now that would be intense.
Hey guys don't forget the amazing tracking abilities a"heard him pile up" shot although convenient wasn't needed.Also have seen different heads that were described to me as being "GUT BUSTERS" to open the stomach and track the animal that way.
it seams like they had to do what needed to be done to feed the family. if that meant a gut shot, then they would have to take it.
I inadvertently made a comment out loud while at a state park viewing manatees to the tune of "That thing would have fed the village for a week." The neighboring tourists seemed quite convinced that indigenous peoples would have treasured the manatee and somehow attributed some sort of sacred status to it. I didn't bother to argue that native people would not have looked a gift manatee in the mouth.
Hunter/gatherer societies tended to exist in much smaller groups/numbers than those typically shown on TV. They spent their existence in a nomadic pattern of following food sources coming together at several times during the year to trade goods and services. Acorns were a primary food source for many tribes, as were nuts, berries, fish and small game animals. Native population centers of any size quickly turned to farming and raiding to provide the needed food sources.
The Jack Paluh print showing the three native hunters smoking a bear out of its den is one of my favorites, as is his native fisherman print.
This is kind of my passion and all of these are questions that I'm extremely interested in.
A book I'm reading right now on the history of the Comanche people makes it sound like once the Indians obtained horses they didn't have a hard time acquiring meat at all. Some of the southern Comanche tribes actually gave up their fall hunt altogether, because they were either stocked up on meat, or it was always easily accessible.
For a warriors to gain status in the tribe their attention turned more towards accomplishments in war, rather than hunting prowess.
Unfortunately, the only thing the book says about the Indians killing the buffalo was that they rode along side of them and shot them or speared them.
Hunting is a skill to us, but to the Indian it was just the way things were, it was natural. I think they had quite a different outlook than what we're used to.
I have seen a well known bluff in Texas where the Indians drove the buffalo off of. My imagination went crazy trying to picture what a site it would have been! They say that you can find all sorts of artifacts at the base of it, I would have LOVED to have spent some time poking around but wasn't able to. The man I was with was the government trapper for the county, and the bluff was on private property.
I have shot off a running horse at targets; even off a running mule. I used a 60 inch kodiak bow; and there were a couple rules. One is that if your shooting right handed as I do; you really can't take a shot to your right.
But you CAN make a full draw shot to your left; and if a buff was to your left; one would hope the shot would be at the right side of the buff; and thus; at the liver initially.
You have to drop the reins to shoot. I have seen this depicted otherwise; but you can't come to a full draw with the reins in your mouth IMHO.
That might be OK; as I think when you hit a buff in the liver; you better have a horse that isn't waiting for a rein: to tell it when ( or how) to get the heck out of there.
The shot you can take is a narrow angle; I tried it bareback; and with a saddle; and standing up in the stirrups makes for a better shot.
It would take a well broke horse that still had a lot of zip in it to pull off shooting a buff- in my opinion.
I would like to try it with buffalo.
The use of a deer head to draw in bucks really works with muledeer. I have used a cardboard one; and even used my hands to immitate ears to get them in.
whitetails are more insulting.
:campfire: :archer:
Brian, if you ever get the chance to take a buffalo with a bow & arrow while on horseback, we'd like to hear how it went. BTW - I used to live in Grandview, ID for a while. I love that state and miss being there.
There was a big difference in east, west, southeast and northeast, as well as the pacific and northwest, Canadian. Depending on time as well. With the "deer trade" going on in the southeast in the early to mid 1700s, the bow was quickly replaced by the gun. With the gun, you could get more hides to trade for more goods, killing at greater distances.
There are first hand accounts of as someone mentioned above, smoking bears out of their den trees, whole deer hides, with head, being draped over a hunter, as a decoy, while other hunters waiting in ambush, shotting turkeys off the roost, by the dozens at a time, (both white and Indian shotting the turkeys), spears, reed traps and weirs in rivers for fish, (some are still evident still today, (the rocks pointing in a "v" shape) down stream. There were buffalo and elk in the southeast in the early 1700s as well. These were hunted around the "salt licks" of southeastern Tennesse, on ambush. River cane was thick and abundant in these areas as well.
Depending were one lived, would depend on what one would use, east, hickory, was the #1 bow material, locust was used some as well, with sinew, bear gut, squeril gut, nettle, and many other plant life was used for sting material. Cane, dogwood and various other woods for arrows, again, depending on the location in the east. Some had no points, just charded in the fire after sharpening, copper or brass cones, heads hammered from brass tin trade kettles, steal trade points, animal teeth, bone, bills etc. for arrow heads, as well as the flint rocks. The Florida Indians used more bone, teeth and trade metals then rocks. Fletching was what could be had, there are many birds out there with large feathers, again, depending on what part of the country one lived in, you used what was at hand, or what could be traded for from other towns or travelers, both white and Indian.
The Indians of the Southeastern United States, by John R. Swanton is a very good read of early indian life.
The Voyages of VonReck is another. William Bartram, Charles Hudson's The Southeastern Indians, is a good read too.
Hunting was not year round for the Indians, it was a season crop, same as nuts, berries, corn, squash, fish, deer, etc. had it's season.
In all of life, there is a season for all life. Every thing was used, nothing wasted. But the Europeons changed all of that in time. The Deer Trade, with the availability of the gun, about wiped out the deer east of the Mississipi, in the southeast. Long gone are the elk and buffalo, the turkey population too, fell on bad times.
What was harvested, was for the good of the "Town" and everyone shared in the bounty. When the towns grew, they would split off in "Clans" and start another town, this was all done for a reason. Hunters would travel good distances to hunt the meat, many different "Peoples" had common hunting grounds, but only what was needed was taken, no more.
My limited knowledge is only of the Southeasten Peoples, as my ancestors were once, I am a student and still learning of the old ways.
It ain't like Hollyweird, it was totally different.
A little of topic but...Another passion of mine is hunting arrowheads and Indian artifacts. The 2 small points top around the center are from WA, the rest are from the Catskills of southern NY. There are a few true arrrowheads, some knife blades and most are spear/dart points. A spear needs no description... a dart was shorter, 4 to 6 feet, thin, light weight, flexable, they where thrown with the help of the atlatl, a handle type of dealy that helped to launch a dart to higher speed's/distance. http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u232/oneshot32/000_6442.jpg
I chased three deer one time with a good cattle horse.She closed the distance real well and got to about 15 yards,then she decided that was close enough and after spurring her a couple times to get closer she blew up and the rodeo was on. Cows didn't bother her ,she would get right in there and push and even bite em now and then,but she didn't want any part of the deer.It would take a special horse to get next to a buff at a full run!
I don't remember the name of the Hunting show, but one of the hosts was a bowyer and He filmed a Bison hunt of off horse back. I wish I had taped that episode. He gave the bow and arrows to the Chief after the hunt. The other host was a musician. Man I hate it when my memory doesn't work.
Howard Hill relates his experience of killing a bison off the back an Indian pony mare in his book "Hunting the Hard Way". It's a thrilling tale.
ksbowman, I haven't ridden horses much, but I did get to experience one exploding into rodeo mode. That's when the auto-eject seat engaged and I was getting a birds-eye view of Mother Earth. I'm lucky I survived without a parachute. That's one time for sure that I'm glad I didn't have a bow and arrow with me.
I only know of one modern guy who has tested "Indian" style equipment(bows and arrows) as close to authentic as possible. He has shot buffalo with this very primitive gear successfully in front of Archaeologists and Anthropologists alike. This guys name is Doug Campbell and he talked breifly on page one. You might ask him to expand more on what he knows from gathering data first hand under very real conditions. :thumbsup: CK
Doug, care to share with us?
There was also an article in Primitive Archer about a guy shooting a buffalo off of horseback mimicking the way the Indians did it.
There are books written in the 1800's about hunting buffalo from horseback. ( Read classic books by George Catlin or James Willard Schultz http://www.nogginworks.org/pqrst/schultz/mylife/myli_title.html )
Often it was called "running buffalo" A well trained buffalo running horse was quite valuable as it would respond to knee pressure as both hands were needed to shoot a bow. As soon as the horse got within several yards of the targeted buffalo it would stay alongside it for a few seconds then would veer off to avoid the possible charge of the wounded buffalo. It must have been exciting going full out on a horse over rough ground ... some guys used muzzle-loaders they would carry the powderhorn around their neck and hold the lead balls in their mouth! No ramrod just pour in some powder spit the ball down the barrel maybe tap the gunstock on the saddle and hope the ball sits on the powder
Islander, thanks for the links to the books. I took a quick glance at the web site and it looks like some very interesting reading. As far as loading the muzzleloader on horseback goes, if I tried that method, I'd probably die of lead poisoning from swalling the lead ball.
I thought the Indians ran the buffalo off of cliffs to kill them.