I thought this title would get lots of attention, as its so often the main topic of so many threads on this site as well as other Trad sites. :knothead:
I'm amazed at how many are looking for the "Cheepest" of this or that, instead of items of outstanding quality at a fair market price. This has prompted me to do some research into the price of archery products of yesteryear and compare them to today's price equivalent, along with other goods that could be compared to. I did not include custom made bows or like products available today as custom products of that time were virtually unheard of.
I've been involved in organized archery since my early teens, so I picked the year of 1954 to compare prices to. I used a copy of Archery Magazine June 1954 and a 1954 Bear Catalog for prices of that time and the 2007 3 Rivers, Kustom King, and Jake's Archery catalog for current figures. Other prices from 1954 I used my memory to the best I can remember, so these figures are not chiseled in stone, but they are close.
Five different bows in 1954 averaged $51.18 ea., in 2007 five bows averaged $330 ea. price increase was (6.6 times)
Five arrow makers (wood) averaged $14.90 per doz., in 2007 five arrow makers (wood) ave $67.40 per dozen. Price increase was 4.5 times.
Shooting Gloves 3 types ave $1.85 ea., in 2007 six types ave. $13.59 Price increase of 7.3 times.
Broadheads/ doz. ave $4.06, in 2007 they averaged $43.10/ doz. Price increase of 10.6 times
Bitzenburger fletcher price ea. $12.75, in 2007 priced at $70.99 ea. an increase of 5.8 times
Gasoline per gal ave .17 cents, in 2007 ave price $2.75 per gal. Price increase 16 times.
Medium priced house ave $13,500, in 2007 $250,000 Price increase of 18.5 times.
New Car (ford or chevy) $500, in 2007 (ford or Chevy) $25,000. an increase of 50 times.
Coke or Pepsi from a vending machine, .05 cents, in 2007 price .75 cents an increase of 15 times.
When you look at the overall picture we really have some reasonable equipment to choose from, and although we all like a good deal, I think many have taken it beyond reason. I know that when I am looking for a piece of equipment I like to know its avaliable. Dealers and manufactures have to make a profit to stay in business. Being a manufacture myself I know the margin is not large.
It was certainly not the intent of this thread to offend anyone, mearly trying to point out its not as bad as it seems.
Bob
A point most valid.
Cheap is what you were saying then. I thought this was going to be a bird thread. Yes things are more expensive and every dollar counts, nothing wrong with being frugal and cost conscience.
Too bad my wages haven't gone up with the ford and chevy crowd!!! I don't spend too much on stuff that I can make for myself tho,its part of the fun of trad! That said,I'd rather spend a little too much for something that works, as spend much too little for somethin that half-ass works! :)
I have always believed you pay for what ya get. If ya want quality ya pay the price. Yeah I make some things but essentially if you make something you are investing in it with time and effort as well as cost of the base product, ie shafts to make arrows with you want quality shafts if you want quality arrows that goes with the fletching and the products you seal and paint the shaft with as well as the point you put on the end of the finished product. Cheap breaks, quality don't. Just my opinion.
Danny
"Frugality" is a Practice of Mine, when and where it will do ME , and My CheckBook, the Most Good. :thumbsup:
I agree that "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" Money+Common Sense+Price Shopping = Frugality so, I Price Shop, which is "prudent" and Try to get The Best Product, for a Price that wont Break the Bank.
And if its something I can Make and Repeatedly get Good/Great Use of, I aint gonna buy that Item Again!!
:thumbsup: :archer:
Its unwise to pay too much, but its worse to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you loose alittle money, that's all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes loose everything, because the item you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.
The common law of business balances prohibits paying a little and getting alot. it can be done.
If you choose to deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, If you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.
There is hardly anything in the world that someone can't make a little worse and sell a little cheaper. People who consider price alone are this man's lawful prey.
Don't forget supply amd demand. Archery isn't something one has to have to survive. Most everything one needs in archery can be made by hand. You buy archery product because you want them and don't want to talk time to do it yourself.
Things on your other list are either needs or addictions and can't be manufactured at home by most. The want it, need it, have to have it to survive and cannot produce it themselves so demand is high and you have to pay whatever the manufactures want.
Spent $50 or $100 and a weeks time with some hand tools you can have everything you need on the h archery side.
Let me see you do the same when you want your next car.
Look at the knife business. anyone with a hammer and a file can make a knife. There are millions of people and companies that make knives too. You can buy a knife that will get the job done for years that cost less than $2.00. That knife will also likely have better steel in it than one from the 50's that cost 20 times that amount. Today people buy knives because they a pretty, everyone has more than they need and it times are tough they either quit buying them or make their own. Comapnies that make them will suffer greatly.
With most things you get what you paid for.
My house needed a new can opener. Not the electric kind, twist the wrist kind. They had one at the store for $11.00. And they had one for $3.00. No sense spending too much, right?
The FIRST time I tried to open a can it crushed in my grip. It wouldn`t even punch a hole in the can so I could at least smell the coffee.
Maybe I can get my three bucks back, and get one that works.
I try to buy the best I can, IT MAKES FOR ALOT MORE FUN, PERIOD!!!! :)
I like to buy the best when I can. But used.Leon
QuoteOriginally posted by leon:
I like to buy the best when I can. But used.Leon
An excellent approach to life....except when purchasing food or Toilet paper.
As a former economics teacher, I was constantly going over these things with my kids, talking about opportunity cost and inflation, etc.
A quick trip over to the Bureau of Labor Statistic's inflation calculator (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl) shows that $10 in 1954 had the same buying power as $75.65 today, according to the CPI inflation rate. Now, there are all kinds of holes in the CPI rate, and especially among our group here at Tradgang. But, it is still interesting to consider the value of a dollar over time.
Few things in life are set in stone, timeless; money definitely ain't one of 'em!
I've always differentiated between "cheap" and "inexpensive".
You just can't get old world quality at third world prices.
I agree with Bob!! Going too cheap is dangerous! I think Mac nailed it. Frank
I had that typed up on a paper when I was in sales, and when someone wanted something new at a used price or something unreasonable, I would give them one of the papers. It used to make them sit back and think about it.
What always got me was arrow shafts and spine testers. I understand that arrow shaft prices are due to the government, it's not due to suppliers or vendors. But still, I just can't see paying those prices. Back a few years when a dozen matched shafts cost 12 to 15 bucks, I might have thought about it, but not now. Sure, if you plane your own or use dowels, you end up with waste and it costs you some in time and work. But the time and work that it costs is enjoyable to me.
I always thought spine testers were over priced. Especially when you consider what they do and how easy they are to make. And over night one popular model jumps up 80 dollars in price.
But these things aside, I don't think most things in traditional archery are overpriced.
The nice thing about this hobby is that you can spend as little or as much as you want and still get your arrow to hit the mark.
I vote for quality. I would rather have fewer great things than more "so-so" things. Buy enough quality to get the job done. If you buy cheap stuff, you will probably have to buy it more than once and your savings go out the window. And on top of that, you won't have the pleasure of using a quality tool or shooting a well-made bow.
so- I know how much I would need if I find a way to go back in time; but what could I take that would be more valuable then than now- so I could afford what I would want? They wouldn't take my credit card; and my money looks fake.
What would I take back that was more valuable then - than now?
Everyone now days is always looking for the "cheapest" and the "best". Most people do not have an eye for quality anymore. My Grandpa used to always tell me that you can get the cheapest, or you can get the best, but not both. I build custom longrifles on the side, and folks just getting into blackpowder about loose their minds when I tell them what I get for a rifle. I simply reply "let me see you make one from scratch." Ha! Most people have no idea what goes into building a custom rifle or bow, so maybe to them the prices do seem extreme.
How does that go: You Can Always Buy Better, But Ya Cant Pay More!!
I'll probably get some backlash for these statements, but here goes anyway...
A proper 1x2 of red oak from Lowe's or Home Depot with proper workmanship will make a bow that will shoot right along with any other longbow, hybrids not included. You probably won't make a good one on your first attempt or two, so buy a few of them. Get good at it ( it won't take too long ) and then you can cut tree staves for free if you're lucky. Either way, there is a learning curve involved. But you can make 10 to 20 average self bows before you begin to approach the cost of one average factory bow. Learn to read grain first. Reading grain applies to both bows and...
Arrows: proper dowels from the craft or hardware store can make very good arrows that can match or even surpass the matched dozens you buy from archery suppliers. I know there are some vendors that sell shafts that are meticulously matched. It could be very hard to match them as close as these guys do. The finished arrows from these guys are also of the highest quality. Some are such works of art that they would probably give me a case of target panic if I drew one on a bowstring.
But I also know that there are vendors who only match their dozens in spine and not in weight, whether it's raw shafts or finished arrows and they still charge 30 bucks a dozen for raw shafts. It's not too tough to come up with a dozen dowel arrows that are far better matched than these and far less expensive. Match your dowels as closely or as loosely as you wish. Make them as plain or as ornate as you wish. Just make sure you can read and understand grain. If you can pick a good board for a bow, you can pick a good dowel for an arrow. You can also plane them from boards or make them from shoots. Both of these methods involve more work, however if you use shoots, your raw material can cost you nothing. Dowels will cost 30 to 60 cents a piece.
Most spine testers cost an arm and a leg. There is one that only costs an arm. It isn't hard at all to make one for a good bit less than the cost of a fingertip. And there are many ways to do it...protractor, dial indicator, digital caliper. You can even do pretty well with a primitive one as long as you are consistant.
Strings: You can buy two strings or you can buy enough material to make twenty of them for the same price. Take your choice. If you only have one or two bows, it's not a big deal as strings last a good while. However, if you have many bows it will pay off quickly.
Points: I've never tried to make my own points or broadheads because field points aren't very expensive and they outlast the arrow provided you don't lose them. Broadheads are pricey but you don't launch them everyday. I only need a handful of them. I don't see the need to make them. They are the one item that I'd rather pay for than make.
Glues for points: I've found that extra stength hot melt glue from the craft store works as well as ferrel tite for 1/10th the price.
There are many "shorcuts" you can take when it comes to archery stuff. But when you save in money, you will make up for it in work or time in most cases. When you save in work or time, you can bet your rear end you'll pay in cash.
I think the best bargains going are 1x2 red oak bow staves and 5/16 ramin dowels. Ramin dowels will soon be gone. Wonder what they will replace them with? Whatever it is, I'll probably try to make an arrow from it. I'll know right away whether it will serve me or not.
I'm all about cheap. Cheap as in inexpensive, not cheap as in junk.
What most of you have said about buying quality is correct, at least in part.
The corollary to this principle (which is equally true) however is that; just because you have spent a lot more, doesn't necessarily mean you have bought better quality. The Law of Diminishing Returns is alive and well and also many times the premium price we might pay for products has little or nothing to do with their value and everything to do with the name printed on the side.
Take Porsche as an example. No one buys one because they are exceptionally well-made cars. In fact, a Toyota costing 1/4 or so of the price will likely outlast it by many, many thousands of miles. It will also ride better, handle more smoothly, and what few repairs and little service is required will cost you far less as well. You buy a Porsche to enjoy the "prestige" of the name.
Optics are another good example. If your pride requires it, you buy optics with a majestic eagle, a stylized Z, or a cute red dot on the side. If you want simple optical performance, Nikon, Bushnell, Minox, Kahles, Pentax, Meopta, Vortex, and etc. all offer comparable quality products at 1/2 the price or less. They also offer better warranties and better customer service as well.
So too are the products of (some) custom bowyers, fletchers, etc. You oft times are paying for the name on the product, without necessarily receiving a correlating increase in quality.
Put more simply: "Buy the best" and "Pay the most" do not necessarily mean the same thing.
Poekolen:
I don't disagree with what you said. The intent of my thread was directed at those who have written. "Where can I get the cheepest spool of B50" now lets see a spool of B50 runs about $8.00 how much cheeper will you find it maybe .25 cents. And there are several more examples, but I won't bore you with it.
Lucznik:
I hate to disagree with you, but when it comes to optics, I will bet you've never spent hours looking through them. An yes if you are just taking a quick look the cheepies are probably fine, but spend an hour or more and you will notice the difference. Each situation is different.
Bob
QuoteOriginally posted by Brian Krebs:
so- I know how much I would need if I find a way to go back in time; but what could I take that would be more valuable then than now- so I could afford what I would want? They wouldn't take my credit card; and my money looks fake.
What would I take back that was more valuable then - than now?
Very simple. A GOOD history book for land usage/growth, stocks, collectibles, lottery numbers and sports championships. The book might cost you $20-30 today but 30, 40-50 years in the past it would be invaluable.
Think of what you could do with only $1000 properly placed back then.
aromaker,
While I try to save some money by making my own things, I do see your point.
A quarter on a roll of b50 isn't anything to sweat, but some do. Now if you needed a whole lot of them, I could see looking for the best price.
When I first started in this hobby, I looked through all the catalogs and I ordered from the ones that seemed to have the lowest prices. I ran into problems doing that. Now I stick with one supplier. Sometimes this supplier doesn't have the absolute lowest price, but they get my order to me very fast and they provided great customer service and help in the begining when I was starting out. I didn't forget that. So if a dozen points cost a quarter more or a half dozen broadheads costs two dollars more than the next guy, I buy from them anyway because I never forgot how they treated me and how quick they get my stuff out. I have no problem paying a buck or two more for great service even though I like a bargain.
But I know what you mean about people trying to find the cheapest price on everything. Many times they end up paying for it with lousy service.
QuoteI will bet you've never spent hours looking through them.
You would lose that bet.
Note too that I didn't say you could get good optics "cheap." I just said that paying the highest price does not gaurantee you the best quality nor the highest value.
Besides the many hours I spend glassing while scouting I also have the benefit of being able to sit on my porch and glass a resident herd of antelope for hours on end - not to mention the deer, elk, birds, etc. all of which can be viewed year round right around my home.
I spend far more time behind my "glass" than do most hunters - mostly just because I can. While I'm not an optical engineer, I have spent considerable time researching and studying the concepts, limitations, and compromises that go into optics design. The simple reality is that German/Austrian optics hold no special qualities that are not duplicated by the high-quality offerings of the Japanese and some other European firms. What the Germans do have is better marketing/advertising departments.
The "top" optics makers do indeed produce products that are very nice. They are however, often matched (and in some cases bettered) by other, less-expensive makes.
I think the optics argument probably isn't between the cheap optics like $30 WallyWorld stuff and Zeiss, but if you are talking about, say Eagle Optics as cheap (still ~$200-300) vs. those really expensive ones, then I'd have to agree with lucznik.
When it comes to my hunting stuff, I look for top of the line.
I just had a fellow Tradganger email me about getting a Super Shrew bow and how he sees why Super Shrew shooters are making a big fuss about them.
I love Easton Axis/Beman MFX arrows.
I love my Bison Gear pack
My Gray Wolf Woolen cloths are top notch.
I think silk long underwear are the best.
I think my Black Forrest Blade knives are awesome.
What's on my to get list:
I'm still investigating binoculars, but it will be one of the big three.
I'm looking at the wood arrows from Elite arrows/Paul Jalon that Ron LaClair has on his website when my stash of old Acme Premium shafts has been used up.
I'll add a Double Bull blind to my hunting arsenal.
None of these items were/are inexpensive. I buy them from reputable companies that are service oriented. I've gotten more pleasure by far than what I "paid out" for these items. Over the long haul, they're a value and the proprietors have earned they're nickle in my eyes. Owners like Ron LaClair, Tim/Gabby Cosgrove, Jeff Aulik and Angelo from Bison Gear are worth keeping in business in my opinion. Maybe I'll end up in the poor farm, but if so, look for me in the happy section. ;)
Thanks Dan..
Now beam me back :) :archer: