I have a cool trad pic of a hunter at full draw with longbow/cedar arrows as wallpaper on my computer which a buddie was looking at yesterday. I could see he was thinking hard about something, so I asked what he thought.
He kinda looked and said "why don't these traditional guys use a decent arrow?" (now DON'T kill the messenger!)
I asked him why he would say that, and he commented that surely aluminum or carbon would stand up better, and he thought that wood arrows would more likely break or shatter on impact, even with hitting a deer sized target.
We got into a long conversation about this, but he still wasn't convinced, even after I explained that wood arrows were used for millenia before anybody EVER heard of aluminun/carbon......he's newand shoots compound, so please forgive him..
Anyhow, an interesting question might be....
has anyone EVER experienced a failure of wood arrows when striking living game? Not rocks, trees or frozen dirt.
More animals have been taken with arrows of natural materials than aluminum or carbons combind. That's just fact. Not even an argument that I would engage in. dino
Your buddy doesn't understand physics either.
If an arrow fails on contact, any material, there was a fault in the material before the shot.
Used them for many years without any problems. I've used carbon for the most part lately but I still love to make and shoot a good wood arrow. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with them again.
But your title "Ever have a woodie fail on impact"
Now That's funny!!!!! :biglaugh:
I've never had a wood arrow fail upon contact with an animal but I sure have had carbons fail. When praticing in the back yard I've missed the coke cans I was shooting at and hit rocks, having all three types fail.
I JUST KNEW THAT SOMEBODY WOULD PICK UP ON THAT TITLE...LOL!
Actually, if the impact is made perfectly dead on like it should, probably even a soda straw would suffice. It is the very tip, about 3/8" square that makes the contact, not the rest as it is not the structure along the length of the arrow that matters at this point. On an angled hit, things can change, but I for one have never had a wood arrow break on an animal, just from impact. I HAVE had them break due to trauma sustained by the animals reaction and movement
I think your friend's worries about this particular scenario is wasted effort. There are other, weightier things to worry about. This is a sign of his inexperience with the use of trad gear, me thinks
ChuckC
Sign of inexperience in archery period. I agree..
I did have one fail on impact. It was the last Howard Hill shoot I went to. Hit the metal track that stupid skunk was flying down. Snapped the shaft about 2" behind the point. Would hate to see what happened to a carbon hitting solid metal like that. At least I could put a footing on mine and shot it again.
Darkegreen.....geez bud, buy a target :-)
My son has snapped a number of Gold Tips, the "toughest arrow you'll ever shoot" using only a 38 pound at 24" bow. Just about anything will break eventually.
I personally think, you hit something hard enough to snap your arrow, it was already stopped and the energy had to go somewhere...regardless of what you're shooting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
Darkegreen.....geez bud, buy a target :-)
I have a couple of really good ones, cans are just more fun. :) That's my version of stump'n. I even do it in the woods i hunt. If i kill the can I place it in a "game bag" and then throw it away proper. Unlimited bag limits and plenty of "game" around these parts. I break one arrow every 500 or so shot.
Ever see a pro ball player walk up to the plate carrying an aluminum bat? No!! Just tell your friend you're a pro and he's still playin' pee wee! :thumbsup: :biglaugh:
A few years ago I had one blow up in mid air. About 10 feet away from the bow....
It really freaked me out.
I'm afraid your friend doesn't have a clue about what he is talking about, or archery for that matter. :archer:
Molson,
That was awsome!!! :biglaugh:
Molson, way too funny man!
Jeez, I'm almost afraid to show this thread to him...he'll get all defensive like, and not wanna hunt with me again...oh wait,is that a bad thing? LOL. kidding -just kidding!
Failed just before impact!
I was pretty drunk though!! :eek: :D
I've had wood shafts break on cardboard airial discs. Otherwise no problem.
The person in question, not the messenger, wasn't asking questions; he was pontificating, with very little experience or knowledge to base it on.
Still.
I am not seeing what you are in terms of these responses. Sorry that you see them the way you do. My apologies.
You are most definately allowed to be a rookie and all of us are encouraged to ask questions and give answers.
Remember, a lot of the time, answers are based upon our own experiences, which may not be as broad as the collective experience of the Gang.
Please try to keep in mind, also, that many times, a response is given with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. ( in case our terms differ from yours, and they might, the term "tongue in cheek" means given with maybe a hint of mischief).
Later
ChuckC
Too Funny. I love wood! Here's an endorsement for wood for ya'
http://www.elitearrows.com/champs.html
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/SteveMcD/ani_smiley_shooting.gif)
Stilllearning,
As long as you now know that wood arrows are every bit as good, and in some ways better, than aluminum and carbon, you're doing ok. Now you just need some practice learning to recognize a joke! :)
No, But one time at Band Camp........
:biglaugh:
LD
I think it is time to clear some things up.
as it is sometimes very hard to put things on the net without sounding pontif.... pontuf.... like a know it all. by the way I had to look that word up.
I was wondering if trad shooters, as you can tell I am not but am interesting in knowing more about it, ever use carbon arrows and if not why not? Does it cause problems with the bow or the arrow? Inexperience is at its most here folks.
I have a ton of questions but now am not sure if I should ask. But here it goes.
Do you have to worry about the arrow warping from storring the wooden arrows? Even better is there a certain way you have to store the arrows? Do you have to worry about to much or not enough moisture in the wood during storage and does rain effect the wood when shooting at game with a wooden arrow any more than shooting in the rain would with a carbon or aluminum arrow?
I shoot compound and have only done it now for 3 years and love it. I don't hunt in the rain as I don't feel that I can garantee a perfect shot everytime yet and don't want to take the chance of getting a less than perfect hit and not being able to track the deer due to loss of blood on the ground as the rain washes it away. Self imposed by the way and have had people say oh don't be foolish.
I have to get back to what I was doing or I could come up with alot more questions that could apply to both trad and compound shooting.
Also I have deleted my earlier response because I figured out that maybe I was taking them the wrong way. My appologies for that.
The only time I saw a arrow fail on impact was from a bad batch of sitka spruce.. I shot the arrow nice and straight into a cheap foam target and the arrow broke in half on impact..But it was definitely due to bad arrows.. Those arrows were so bad I broke 12 in 6mos.. Some would just snap when I pulled them from the target..
One could draw a conclusion that wood arrows are not worthy- by simply shooting the wrong spine; bad grain; cheap arrows that have plastic one piece three fletch and nock in one type deals.
I would tell your friend that arrows have spine; and that some wood arrows work better than others; and that some arrow woods are tougher than others.
I think the oldest bow found was about 7,500 years old; and wood arrows have worked well- from before then to now.
You might point out to him that there are tens of thousands of people shooting traditional bows and wood arrows; and why he thinks: we would?
Stilllearning. I'm confused, are you the buddy that Eastern Archer is talking about? Regardless, to answer your most recent question about wood and carbons and aluminum. Wood needs to be properly sealed or it will warp, but it is easily straightened. Wood arrows are more difficult to make and keep in good shape than are carbons or aluminums, but a lot of us just consider that part of the commitment to traditional archery/bowhunting. A lot of folks who shoot recurves and longbows also shoot carbon and aluminum arrows. They're more maintenance free than wood, and they shoot beautifully out of traditional bows. Hope that answers most of your questions.
stilllearning,
Orion said it. Wood need to be sealed, same as an all wood bows. Wood will need to be straightened the same as alum. need to be straightened every once and a while. I find from my own experience that people use wood arrows for the same reason they shoot all wood bows. It is all preference. Are they less capable then alum or carbon? Not by a long shot, just different. Example, 700 gr carbon, 700 gr alum, and 700 gr wood shot out of the same 50# bow, will hit with the same impact power. To carry this just a bit further, wood will bend a bit more making it more forgiving out of certain bows such as self bows with wide handles.
I hope this helps and never stop asking, that's when you stop learning.
no, I never experienced it, because I keep my BHd's sharp
"God made wood, and wood is good------Go Traditional"
Stolen from classicarchery.com.
Jeff
Oh and I also have had a graflex shaft blown up on me...I still have the scars on my bow hand from the glass shaft.
Check EVERY arrow after you miss No matter what the material is!
Yes, wood is good.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Stilllearning. I'm confused, are you the buddy that Eastern Archer is talking about?
Yes guys, this is my friend, whom I work with, hunt with and spend time planning activities in the great outdoors.
I didn't believe that this simple discussion would get so heated!
Yup, he's learnin'....but ain't we all? And as Orion says, if we turn our noses to simple questions, then we stop learning and evolving don't we? BTW...I think the questions are valid as I began to wonder about the stress at impact to. Gave us all a chance to learn something new today.
I've never experienced a broken arrow/failure on game, but I've only been shooting wood a little over 20 yr.
Steve
I've had cars break- seen buildings fall down- a microwave recently quit working on us- and a TV lost its picture a few months ago.
None of those events stopped me from going out and getting another one- anything made by man can break/fail/quit doing what its supposed to do.
I can hit a golf ball with a wooden club as far as you can hit it with a titanium driver...both materials are fine..its a matter of choice. They all get the job done...we aren't sending a rocket to the moon trying to break the hold of the earth's magnetic field here..we are trying to poke a sharp stick through the thorax of an animal at 20 yards and under...its not rocket science...its 20,000 year old physics worked out by cave men.
May I suggest a book to read- its a primer of sorts that will answer more questions than you ever thought of, stillearning...its by T J Conrads and its called....oh, I think its Traditional Bowhunter's Handbook?? Someone here will tell you for sure..but its A to Z and though long, is a quick read.
Ray, you're a trip. Well said.
I've had a number fail on impact -- usually the first time the arrow's loosed. "Bad shaft," I say, "Wish I had known that before I straightened it, nocked it, trimmed it, sealed it, pointed it, and fletched it. Oh, well."
I cull quite a few wooden shafts cause they're bent in more than one direction or I don't like the look of the riffs. Out of every dozen I finish, I'll usually get a couple great shafts and a couple miserable ones.
Although carbons are more hassle to tune, it seems that they're more consistent. But -- and I don't know if it's my mindset, or what -- I seem to make my "first shot" hits more frequently with wood than carbon. Go figure.
Still.
stick around and keep asking your questons. Sounds like you want to know and there are a bunch of folks here that like to teach. Its really a pretty cool place.
We try, very hard, to keep things on an even keel here. Not too many scuffles or yelling matches ever take place here. Matter of fact....if they do, the folks whose names appear at the top left of the page tend to shut it down pretty quick. We like it that way.
As I said, its a pretty cool place.
ChuckC
Interesting. I had no idea that you had to seal the arrows but it makes sense. I am comming up with a flood of questions now.
Now do you need a special sealer or do you use varnish or is it again a personal preference that with time and trial and error you find what you like?
Is there one type of wood that is easier to find the right grain in or not realy, you just have to check it over carfuly?
Lets say the sealer some how weakens and you find a small crack in the wooden arrow. I have seen some pics of carbon arrows shattering, will that cracked arrow do somthing simmilar? Will that wooden arrow do the same type of damage to your hand that the carbons do?
how many differnt types of traditional bows are there? I mean take down, recurve, long bow.... they are all classed as trad right?
Some of these questions may be out there but I just know less than nothing about trad shooting. I like to shoot the recurve from time to time as there seams to be more you have to go by feel on instead of using so many gagets. Is that part of the hole thrill that I enjoy when shooting the recurve? Now that seamed like a dumb question but................ oh well.
Wood arrows are more hands on, for sure, but not bad. And many of us like it that way. You should always inspect your equipment routinely, especially your arrows, as they take a ton of abuse. If you do as some of us trad gangers do and go roving, or stump shooting, you can really knock those arrows around. In that case, I will often check my arrow for damage after each shot, just to be sure it is not cracked.
Still, wood arrows are not quite as sturdy as carbons in some ways, but I really think that in others they are. Aluminums, at least when I used to shoot them, heck they bent if you looked cross eyed at them, and I was just not good enough to straighten them. Wood arrows on the other hand can be straightened relatively easily. I make my own and tend to shoot wherever I want with not much concern about breaking them. I am amazed at how few I actually break. When I do break one, it is typically not from straight on contact, but rather, from the tip hitting something at an angle, which often causes the shaft to break right behind the head. Other arrows materials do the same, I have seen this.
When you find worn areas, or your fletching is getting ratty, or the sealant is getting worn (note...this is not really that easy, they take a licking) you can, and should refinish them. You can get as extravegant as you wish or simply dip them into a tube of any of a number of sealants. I like to use Watco brand danish oil, which I just wipe on, then wipe off, using a rag. Not really difficult at all.
I have seen only a couple broken arows do a number on someone's bow hand, but it sure can happen just like with other arrows. My wife actually had a broken wood shaft penetrate her hand and poke out of a finger upon release. Not fun.
A wood arrow, if it breaks like that, will generally break into a point, not shatter into all sorts of fibers like earlier carbons did. I am guessing the newer woven carbons won't break the same way. Usually they break on release either because they were already cracked from hitting something, or the grain of the arrow is severe and breaks our on the side of the shaft, instead of running all the way from one end to the other.
We tend to stay away from arrows whose grain runs that poorly.
In general, traditional bows are broken down into longbows and recurves. You can go deeper than that and break out some more groups, such as self bows but these are typically part of one of the first two groups. How the bows are made seem to be much more of a descriptor.
Having fun here, keep going.
ChuckC
Here's the thing about wood; it requires your attention, your experience, and your skill to make it good. Wood has an energy to it, its own personality or character. When you've been working wood shafts and wood in general for awhile, you learn to recognize it. You can't say the same about aluminum or carbon. They are what they are. Very consistent and straight. You can buy XX 75 2117 shafts from anyone you choose and they'll all be alike. That's why they exist. They take all the skill away from arrow making. That's not to say you can't make aluminum or carbon pretty, but we're taking about making arrows, not decorating them.
That right there is the whole attraction to traditional archery. It about your skills and your ability. Getting a return on your investment, not just purchasing it. You don't see too many compound shooter chasing squirrels through the trees launching $10 carbons at them. And that's too bad because that's one of the most exciting, silly, entertaining, challenging, and down right enjoyable things you can do with a bow and arrow!! :thumbsup:
Now come on over Stilllearning and have some fun! :campfire:
"Is that part of the hole thrill that I enjoy when shooting the recurve? Now that seamed like a dumb question but................ oh well."
By George, I think he's got it!
Killdeer :clapper:
Molson, Great Post, and right on!
Stilllearning, keep asking those questions. No one here knew the answers until they either asked or did the research. Enjoy the journey.
QuoteOriginally posted by Molson:
You don't see too many compound shooter chasing squirrels through the trees launching $10 carbons at them. And that's too bad because that's one of the most exciting, silly, entertaining, challenging, and down right enjoyable things you can do with a bow and arrow!! :thumbsup:
:campfire:
OK I never thought of that and with squirrels eating all the bird food out of the feeder......... Ok now I need instruction photos on how to build some wood arrows to use in the recurve to chase squirrels in the back yard. :goldtooth:
Stilllearning....we are all still learning. After forty couple years of this I still encounter an epiphany or two every year. I love cedar arrows. I seal them with polyurethane and fletch them with Duco Cement. They are as durable as other arrows, pretty much, if you get the tapers right and points glued on solidly. Don't worry about asking questions you think may be silly, that's pretty much the way one has to learn.
There was an article in TBM awhile back that talked of a fellow who took several deer with the same wood arrow. They are very worthy.
Oh yes!!! Hunting squirrels is mandatory when you begin to shoot stickbows 8^).
Stilllearning. We're happy to answer your questions, of course, but you might consider picking up a copy of volume I of the Traditional Bower's Bible, or The Bowhunter's Handbook by T.J Conrads. Either will answer most questions that one might have about traditional archery.
stilllearning, if you PM me with your address I'll send you a video on making wood arra's.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/Hatrick/nanners1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/Hatrick/SplicedWoodies1.jpg)
Those are some amazing arrows.
Thank you all for all the information. I am nervouse about doing this. Just as eastern how nervous I was fletching my first aluminum arrow. now that was sad.
Orion funny you should mention that book as I know a fellow that just picked it up reacently.
Is this thread about arrows?
It ain't about ducks...I've seen a lot lot of woodies(ducks) fail on impact. :knothead:
I got'ta start wearing my bifocals.
My only advice about arrows failing, is to wear a bracer(arm guard) while shooting.
I thought somebody might have posted a picture, I've seen, online; with a shattered arrow that splintered and went in the shooters bow arm.
Good question. Take care and have fun!
"Ever seen a woodie fail on impact?"
No, but as I get older I find it takes a little longer to recover from archers paradox. ;)
darke, darke, darke...tsk tsk! :biglaugh:
Darke, that's funny right there!!
OMG, that's a classic Darke! :biglaugh:
20+ years shooting/hunting with wood......no,never
I've been biting my tongue on this one for days. The shortened title, as it appears on the main menu is "Ever had a woodie fail...." Darke, that was a most excellent response. Curt, let's see if you still say that after 30+ years!! And, so as not totally hijack the thread, no I've never had a woodie fail upon hitting the target. Upon hitting rocks it's sometimes a different story.
Darke, yeah, I know what you mean. When I was younger I could shoot a stiffer spined arrow.
:thumbsup:
Stilllearning, video will be shipped tomorrow. Enjoy!... Dave