How sharp is stone points? Can you shave with them?
Thanks
the are suppose to be sharper than steel if done right. from what i remember some surgical scalpels are lined with stone on the edge for a sharper cut
no way!!!!!
yeppers, they leave less of a scar
can one of u guys make me one and send it to me?!?!?! :pray: :pray: :pray:
for real!!!!!!
Here is a link to some information on the subject.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HlwUo0IccoMC&pg=RA19-PA62&lpg=RA19-PA62&dq=errett+callahan+scalpel&source=web&ots=tNfkftbEFm&sig=Fim39NJZOCaBMneMx8GJQ5LZR7w
Here is an extract from another source:
"When Crabtree himself had to have part of a lung removed, he introduced his surgeon to the knapper Flenniken. Following the surgeon's specifications, Flenniken knapped a set of obsidian blades. The incision they made, Crabtree later insisted, healed quickly and cleanly--and to prove it, he would lift his shirt to show that the scar on his chest was indeed barely visibly.
Since then, Flenniken has knapped hundreds of blades for surgical use. A colleague needing open-heart surgery decided to demonstrate the superiority of obsidian blades, so he asked his surgeon to make half the incision with an ordinary scalpel and half with an obsidian blade knapped by Flenniken. Not only did that part of the incision made with the obsidian blade heal more quickly, but while the scalpel left an ugly visible scar, the obsidian blade left only a faint pink line."
Killdeer
Yes sir ain't nothing like a good obsidian blade.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/JOHN4Mystikbow/100_2064.jpg)
Yes and no. It's always complicated, isn't it? ggg
The edge of an unretouched flake (especially obsidian) is unbelieveably sharp. The scalpels that Callahan and others used to make were very specialized unretouched flakes.
The stone arrowpoints we use and the great knife that Mystikbow pictured are retouched -- lots of flakes coming off the edge. Consequently, the edge "wanders" around a lot on the micro scale. You need a very straight edge for shaving. But the retouched edges are still very sharp, although they may not feel that way when you handle them.
A bit more info on the obsidian scalpels: a buddy in Oregon, Craig Ratzat, made some for plastic surgeons. The incisions were nearly invisible and the cuts healed more quickly than with steel scalpels. The surgeons quit using them, though, because the obsidian was so sharp that it cut with minimal pressure: they couldn't tell how deep they were cutting! The steel scalpels "pushed back" and they had a better idea of the incision depth. FWIW.
Very true. Because the stone blade is knapped the edge is more like a serrated edge. But as knife river said,make no mistake. It may not "feel" sharp like a metal edge does but it most certainly is.
Hey my dad killed a deer once with a stone head. He poked holes both sides, what more could you ask for.
Scott
I skin with unretouched knife river flint flakes at the moment..and I can tell you those 'virgin edged' flakes are scary sharp...way sharper than I can get a grizzly- and I can get a grizzly to remove hair before it actually touches hair!
Try knapping obsidian with no gloves on. You will see for yourself how sharp the flaks are. Even with gloves on it is difficult to keep from getting cut. :thumbsup:
In europe, I once saw a cutting instrument in a museum that consisted of a bone with a slot running along one side. In the slot were pressed flakes of obsidian which layed flat against each other. The instrument looked remarkably like a straight razor and I have no doubt it would have served admirably in that purpose. Which makes one wonder, did the first straight razor have a historical model upon which it was based?
Dan
an obsidian flake is the sharpest cutting instrument on the planet. the cutting edge can be down to one molecule thick. unfortunately, it is very brittle. a stone hunting point or knife is more like a serrated blade or steak knife. as to their killing/cutting ability, i think history says it all.
Dan, there were knives made that way. The early danes also made arrowpoints with a pointed rod made of antler or bone. It was grooved on opposite sides where flint blades were glued in. It would have been deadly.
The Aztecs made a club with obsidian blades inset along the sides. I saw a video clip of someone whacking a side of beef with a replica. The damage was amazing.
He's only posted once or twice, but James Parker (robustus magnon?) in NC made an arrowpoint similar to the early danish one, but in a three blade design. Cool stuff!
Here is a pic of the points James made.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/southernarcher/parkersbh.jpg)
WOW! I would love to see him fit that together.
Killdeer :eek:
That looks like nine different kinds of wicked. GGG
Dang, a flint Savora swept wing...
Woody I have never heard of these bone/flint blades before. Do you know where can I research them?
some of these are still sharp
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i177/johncooper_photos/tannehill/100_1375.jpg)
Ferret, try this book: "Flint fra Danmarks oldtid" by Peter Vang Petersen, ISBN 87-14-29268-8
Give me a couple minutes and I'll post some pics from the book.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish1.jpg)
Here's the business end of an arrow from the Danish Neolithic.
Maybe Bue can provide a translation of the caption:
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish2.jpg)
Here are some other arrowpoints those folks made. These are specialized flakes made from a core and are mostly unretouched. All that just means they're as sharp as they come.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish3.jpg)
Very cool thread!
Maybe Bue could help again. I assume that's a human sternum. Man, you talk about heartburn... It wouldn't just be an itching and burning sensation, would it. Criminy!!!
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish4.jpg)
If you look closely at that point you'll see that it has a triangular cross section -- very unusual, but they made some that way. Wouldn't it be great to know why?
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish5.jpg)
Ferret, I know this is WAY more than you asked for, but I'm rolling now. GGG Now this type point is counter-intuitive. The leading edge is flat -- not pointed.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish6.jpg)
And this style point is one of the most elegant and delicate things imaginable. It appears that the top and sides of the shaft were lightly grooved to accept the point and then an adhesive was applied to lock it down. Very cool.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/krf123/danish7.jpg)
Okay. I'm done. GGG
Ranger3, my apologies for hijacking your thread! I get carried away when this subject comes up. I spend too much time alone in my garage beating on rocks, maybe. ggg
Interesting, wish I could read Danish. The 3 sided blade, a flint or bone Bodkin.Multi blade vs 2 blade = better bloodtrail...we are still having that argument ha ha.
The blunt was in all liklihood a small game or bird point
I love this kinda stuff.
That wasn't a blunt -- the leading edge was sharp. Wonder how it flew...
The arrowhead in picture 42 is what I had in mind when I was thinking about making a 4 blade knapped head. You could either split the shaft to install the bleeder chip or knap the groove from the front back on the second "blade" and slip the two together.
My first thought when I seen the squared off points was tanto. Next I wondered if it was a tool rather than an arrow. Maybe they used those as small game blunt type heads like the Magnus small game broadheads. Maybe they are early versions of nutters. :)
Pretty cool stuff!
i have some of the obsidain blade blanks james parker knocked off a core to make the antler/obsidian point. these things are so sharp you have to be very careful just picking them up. i've cut myself several times just moving them around. i'll try and post a pic of the tonight. hoping to build a couple antler/obsidian points to take hog hunting this spring.
i forgot to add that james showed me the point after he shot it through the shoulder blade of a buck. the point held together better than i thought it would.
Yea Woody I didn't meant blunt in the strictest sense of the term, I just meant a small game/bird point VS a big game point. Some shock along with cutting would not be a bad thing. Sort of like the 38 cartridges with the steel banding in them people use on rabbits and squirrels. Actually I don't imagine it flew bad at all, being small.
Mickey, in that same book is a drawing of a burial with several of those "blunt" points scattered around the body. I wonder if they were imbedded in the body or if they were grave goods.
Wouldn't it be great if there were still somebody around to ask? Lessons lost!
Ferret,
Lessons are never lost, just misplaced. It gives us something to do trying to find them. LOL
Knife river, no problem this very interesting. I just bought some points made from agate for hunting but I don't think they are sharp enough.
ranger stone points are woerd in that they don't feel sharp when compared to a honed metal head. It's like those ginsu knives that they saw a soft drink can in half with and then cut a tomoato into nice thin slices. The part you run your thumb over doesn't feel sharp, but down in tose scallops they'll slice you open.
I must add that not all flint heads are hunting sharp though, especially if they've been laying in the dirt or something for 100 years ha ha. Freshly flaked heads should be adequately sharp.
This is a very interesting thread. I have spent the last three weekends looking for an obsidian pit the indians suppposedly used for their points. I would like to learn this art. I am confused about the terms flint and obsidian. It seems they are sometimes used interchangeable. Weren't arrowheads and other points primarily made of obsidian? Flint is more of a silica. Is there a good beginners book on knapping? Thanks
Mike, flint and obsidian are both extremely high in silica. The difference is in the way they are formed. Obsidian has a volcanic origin, while flint is formed in chalk beds. Chert is formed in limestone and otherwise can be very similar to flint. If that isn't confusing enough, then you have jasper, agate, chalcedony, chrysoprase, opal, and a gob of other materials in the mix. Luckily for dweebs like me it's worlds of fun sorting all this out.
There are several books on knapping, but it's a darned hard way to learn. Knapping is intensely visual and 10,000 words are needed to describe a 30 second technique. I'd recommend you try a DVD or video. Several sponsors (Raptor and 3Rivers) carry some very good ones.
Not sure which Hope and Paradise you're between, but there may a knap-in near you. Sitting with some experienced folks is far and away the best way to learn. Plus you can get tools and stone at the same time. It's usually BYOB, though (bring your own band-aids). GGG
Thanks a bunch for the information Woody. I'll take your advice and get a video. Tried watching at Trad Expo West a couple years ago but got there late.
Hope, Idaho and Paradise, Mont. Think they do a bunch of rock chipping over in eastern Mont.
BYOB, right---maybe a tourniquet and several jugs of plasma.
Thanks for your help, Mike
A German knapper posted this link on another website: http://www.landschaftsmuseum.de/Bilder/Oetzi_Versuch-2.jpg
Take a look at the points that have been shot at the roe deer -- they're the flat-ended blade points. Very interesting!
OK, am I the only one who can't see Woody's pictures? I can see everyone elses, but Woody's posts just have a dash where the picture should be. frustrating. :(
Hi from South Africa,
I'm interested that those small flat chisel points were also used in Europe. Those tiny 'flat' flakes (chisel flakes?) were also used by the San here in SA either one as in a chisel and also two set at an angle like a two blade typical head but each edge is a tiny flake set in a gum mastic. There is a head like that in the SA museum in Cape Town I think is might have been collected by Lucy Van Bleek who did a lot of research on San with her father in the late C19th. I have a T-shirt from an archeaology day at Wits university with pictures of them, sorry no camera !!
If the total diameter is close to or less than the shaft the narrow very sharp edge is much like the 'chisel point' used by some modern heads. An " early dangerous period field point"! The San used poison so were not after major penetration, they just needed to pierce the skin and shot for the neck/ stomach where the skin is thinnest. They used many different kinds of tip material including shaped bone and porcupine quills, as well as knapped stone and later traded for iron wire, but mostly made tiny points - just needed to get the poison into the bloodstream.
Thanks, my two cents.
Chrisg
I cannot see Woody's pics either, BBasi.