If the concept of camoflage is to "break-up" your outline and help you "blend in" with your surroundings.....
1)Why is ASAT "better" than MossyOak,RealTree,etc.?????
I know.....I've heard it all LOL,ASAT breaks up your outline better because the other patterns are to "busy" and "blob" at a distance. BUT.....we want game at "spittin' distance" so does it really matter if it "blobs" at a distance,as long as it works effectively when game is only feet away?????
2) Why is it that most big game animals can "dissapear" into nothing.....and they are solid colored?????
(Now this should be going for a while LOL) :bigsmyl:
If you're blobby at a distance they see you a long time before you see them. You are in their backyard and they know which blobs should be where. And a blob that moves is way outta place.
I agree with Madness. It is more movement than anything else. I've had deer staring at me when I was wearing jeans and a dark T-shirt and they eventually decided I was harmless as long as I didn't move or the wind didn't carry my scent to them. It is my opinion, and opinion is the lowest form of knowlege, that most camo is created to sell. The only thing that will really break up your outline is a ghilly suit and if it is windy the strips of material will wave in the wind and attract attention.
John
But if I wear a brown pair of pants,and a green sweater,I look like 2 "blobs" yet niether "blob" looks like a man.....
Chuck is this your way of starting trouble since it's too early to start snow dancein LOL
By the way it's only 6 months till Christmas :biglaugh:
The "concept" of camouflage was to break up your outline and make you less visible to those that may want to see you. Camo can be as simple as wearing clothing that is somewhat the color of the back ground, to wearing clothing that exactly matches the background. I use the term clothing to mean nearly anything including a couple leaves if that turns you on.
Problem is... there is no one size fits all camo currently available.
As above, there are several schools of thought.
Some say, just wear plaids or similar designs of dull (not shiny) earth tones and move slowly. I agree to a point.
Others say you need large patterns that break up your physical body pattern, even if it doesn't match the background color per se, it makes you look less like a human and more like nothing special. (Predator, ASAT and the like) I agree a lot.
Still others like the myriad of special designs that nearly perfectly match specific backgrounds. My problem with these is that they are now typically darker, and they match ONLY those particular backgrounds.
If an animal just "shows up" and sees you hiding in these sort, they may not see you at all. If, however, they see you moving to get to a hidey place and that dark blob which dissapears against a tree really stands out against the grass, they may not ever just "show up"
The bottom line ? Who knows. Wear what makes you feel good. Don't move quickly.
Shoot straight
ChuckC
I would like to make one addition to ChuckC's closing comment - and hunt into the wind.
Now Tom.....Would I start trouble????? :bigsmyl:
Just looking for some "intelectual discussion" LOL ;)
(summers always seem so long.....)
I'm no expert but in my opinion camouflage is overrated, movement and sent will get you busted more times than not......stabow
Food for thought: Deer have walked within feet of me (I hunt on the ground)while wearing blaze orange and just walked by. Maybe look for a minute and then move on. If I had moved or they scented me though, the jig would be up!!!
Also, about the ghillie suit: if the wind blows the strips, then the leaves and bushes are also being blown around.
I like ASAT and agree with Chuck that most of the sticks and leaf patterns are too dark. I don't feel they do much to eliminate the human silhouette, if anything I feel they distinguish it. I agree with the rest that scent and not moving are advantageous, but since this was a question about camo patterns let's leave scent out of it. Also not moving may work for alot of guys but I personally do a lot of hiking and spot and stalk style hunting so it's not a real viable option for myself. I've used ghillie suits I've made myself and it was quite effective, but then again that is 3D camo and I believe this was more aimed at the 2D prints.
For me it's ASAT, and that's my opinion from using it in the field. We may not pick up on the scents and sounds like our quarry, but we do have good eyesight. So if it looks good to you in the field I'm betting it'll work good for you.
I cant say I have a favorite camo. (Although alot of the brand names are very dark IMO) I can say that no matter where I hunt, high or low(stand or ground) I try my hardest to use the natural cover to block my outline. i.e. A pine tree behind the oak my best stand is in...I make ground blinds out of blown down trees, I usually set up in the hole left by the roots.
And as far as movement, I move alot. I look around, I adjust positions. I have even raised my bow from the ground, nocked an arrow and shot a deer while the deer was within ten yards-and alert. Movement isnt the enemy, you just have to know when you can move, when you cant and how to make it look natural.
Above all of that, scent and wind will make or break you.
I'm 6'2', 260ish #'s. I'm going to be a blob no matter what I wear. I wear layers, and I wear what's comfartable. I almost never, nope never, have matching pants,shirts, coats or whatever.
The original Advantage camo was my all time favorite for tree or ground hunting in my part of the world. It wasn't quite as dark as most of todays patterns.
I think a lot of the "original" patterns were better than what we have now. Original Mossy Oak treestand and especially Full Foliage was at the time my favorite early season camo. I have intentionally snuck in on several people wearing head to toe full foliage... Then... they went and changed it. In my mind, not for the better.
ChuckC
Well, the concept of camo isn't to break up your outline, it is to keep you from being noticed. Now breaking up your outline may do that, and it may not. There are some basic truths about not being noticed. Don't attract attention to yourself, hence no movement. Do blend in to lessen the likelihood of being seen, hence drab earth tone colors. And what I consider one of the most important and least addressed, don't wear anything with a "hard, reflective" surface. Most animals blend in so well because they are stealthy, drab, and because of the hair, non reflective.
The more recent college level lab studies on deer and their vision seems to indicate that the old wool(not synthetic)red and black plaid pattern is probably the most ideal material, colors and pattern one could have for deer hunting camouflage. Many of the modern synthetics with their sharp camo patterns glow like a neon sign to the deer. There is not enough UV wash in the world to kill the glow from these modern synthetics and dyes.
As for camo in general, there is a difference between camo when you are still vs camo when you are moving. Sharp detailed camo that breaks your outline well when you are still has a double edge sword as it is easier to spot the sharp edge detail with your movement if on the go. Many of the blurred patterns are better for movement per military tests as the eye has nothing sharp to catch. This is where the digital camo came from.
Bottom line for deer is they do not see colors as we do and their ability to pick up on movement is far greater then ours. It's been determined they actually see certain colors such as greens, UV, etc., which can stand out against the background. Whereas the red and black wool plaid pattern is detected as differing shades of gray which blends into the background.
I firmly believe that most commercial camo patterns are developed and marketed for the sole purpose of catching the eye of the hunter vs fooling the eyes of a deer.
later,
Daddy Bear
Since I started using an ASAT leafy suit, I have killed way more game than ever before. I too beleive most camo is way too dark.
If your in a tree and leaning away from the trunk, whats mostly behind you? Sky and a few limbs, maybe a leaf canopy early in the year. Dark camo matches the tree trunk but I have never been tight up against a trunk while shooting.
Same thing applies to ground hunting. The space behind you is usually open with lighter colors, especially the changing fall leaves or brown ones in November. My ASAT is all I'll ever wear, besides that ugly Swiss camo I bomb around in after deer season is over. :biglaugh:
One other factor to consider - the fabric used to make your camo - must be "quiet". Specifically - our camoflauge needs to hide us from all of an animal's senses - not just their vision. Put another way - the best camo pattern available (whatever that is) isn't going to hide us very well if we make unnatural sounds every time we move. Camo'ed rain gear is an obvious problem area - especially when cold.
hmmmmm... My favorite warm weather camo.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/purist1/elk/IMG_7934.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/purist1/IMG_7934.jpg)
and the treestand I wear it in...home sweet home
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/purist1/skyscraper.jpg)
originaly posted by woodchucker
QuoteWhy is it that most big game animals can "dissapear" into nothing.....and they are solid colored?????
Obviously you have not looked closely at animals. The colors and texture of animals (fur) are what camoflage them so well. They are not solid colored. Most camo patterns are green. If green is so great, why are not animals green? Camo is made to impress the eyes of humans. I spent years being fooled by this and have changed camo patterns many times. Now I only wear camo to hide my self from people. Aside from movement, UV is the other thing that gets you busted. Use a UV killer in the wash and you could hunt with that crazy Hawaiian shirt no problem. I have not seen many photos of Mr. Bear et all wearing camo. Hummmmm.....
Good article by Bill Heavy titled "The Big Game Is About To Change" in the July Field and Stream. States "A deer couldn't care less what camo pattern you are wearing. As long as it breaks up your outline, it has done it's job". I have been bowhunting deer in Pennsylvania for 40+ years and agree with others here that I have never seen a Whitetail "pick out" a certain type of camo.
I've never thought alot of any of the camo out there. But, I now do most of my hunting from public land and it's a completely different story. I think the predator and ASAT camo are by far and away better. I also like the idea of not being spotted by other hunters.
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
2) Why is it that most big game animals can "dissapear" into nothing.....and they are solid colored?????
Do they? Put a motionless man dressed in Predator camo and a motionless deer side by side in the woods and the deer will stick out more.
Put a deer up in a tree stand and it will "blob".
If you dressed most solid color animals in a good camo pattern they'd be even harder to spot.
Effective camo "technique" also uses shadows heavily. Contrast is important in effectively camoflauging anything, IMO.
Movement, or the lack of movement is obviously the biggest concern of any deer hunter, bow or gun. However, proper camo is just another good tool for bowhunters at very close range, like playing the wind, good scent control and being quiet while entering a hunting location.
If you talk to the guy from Sleeping Indian Wool, he claims that the US military did numberous tests and studies and the best all around, year round camo involved shades of gray. Basically patterns similar to the military urban camo gray and digital camo gray.
After having first bowhunted in bluejeans and WWII camo and "old" wool in the 1970's, then I owned some treebark camo, then Mossy Oak, Realtree, ASAT, Predator, Cabela's Outfitter wool and Skyline, etc., I've formed my own opinions.
In the upper Midwest, it's my opinion that the Mossy Oak's and Realtree's are still a little too blobby for my tastes. Be it treestand hunting or on the ground.
ASAT is a good all around pattern. Outfitter wool green/brown is good for conifers/pines.
But in my opinion, if you choose to use camo over the old traditional checked patterns, then the best all around patterns are Skyline's green patterns for early season and then either Predator Grey, Outfitter grey/snow or Hightimber camo for colder weather once leaves start turning.
At least if you hunt the upper Midwest.
Here is the Sklylines options. Dayone Camo has these in some light fleece which is great for 55 degree's and over...
http://www.skylinecamo.com/online_store.php3#
Dayone camo also has a great pattern that is a combo between WWII camo and Outfitter camo.
It's called Hightimber fleece. It's at the bottom...
http://ns1.bowsite.org/dayone/patterns.cfm
Gray Wolf Woolen makes fantastic wool gear in Predator Gray. BTW, they also make great gear in a gray traditional check pattern too...
http://www.graywolfwoolens.com/store/pages.php?pageid=28
For a cheaper option of what I consider the other "best" all around cool/cold weather pattern, Colombia's snow/grey is the great for making one disappear...
http://www.rockydirect.com/product/1000074/0251-38
Also make sure to check out Gray Wolf's returned merchandise pages for good deals on premium camo...
http://www.graywolfwoolens.com/store/home.php?cat=26
One can debate all day as to what Ishi or the founding fathers of modern traditional archery would wear if they were alive and starting out today. Did the likes of Fred Bear wear what he wore because it was the best option in his time? If Fred Bear was a middle aged man today, would Bear Archery have his own signature camo product line?
What would Fred Bear or Ishi say if they hunted on for 4 hours on a -2 degree December morning in Michigan and tried a Predator Gray 27 oz wool/comformax lined bibs and jacket with matching bomber hat. I'll bet ya even that they'd come back to camp with grin and say "I gotta get me some of that!".
We'll never really know for sure, even if someone once talked to Fred Bear about camo in 1965. And that's what makes the wondering all so fun. ;)
But either way, if you want to use checked wool or a camo pattern, just enjoy yourself and stay still.
One more thing, as Elkbreath points out, even blaze orange is just fine if it has a "camo" pattern on it. If you bowhunt during firearms seasons, don't think twice about wearing blaze orange with some type of black camo mix to it.
I have never had a deer "see" me in blaze camo and have killed 2 of my nicest bow bucks while wearing blaze orange camo in cold weather.
In fact, once the leaves are gone, I think blaze camo is among the best skyline patterns, if you can get past the idea of sitting there in orange.
But if you bowhunt during firearms seasons in area's with heavy pressure, you'll want to wear that orange.
Back in the 60's camo was just getting started and there was not much to chose from. Many of us made our own camo gear from the two or three patterns of cloth available.
It started out slowly and in the last 20 years the dam has broken.
For quite a while I collected camo T shirts.. just to have them. I have since run out of money and space. Many are still bearing the tags. It is neat to see al the variations, but when I hang them outside against the type of cover that I normally see in the woods, it opens your eyes an amazing ways.
ChuckC
I've been at this a LONG time Jerry!!!!! ;) (and payed REAL close attention to animals too)
A black bear is BLACK!!!!!(with some exceptions of coarse)
A black bear curled up sleeping in a deadfall looks just like a BIG BLACK BLOB in a deadfall. But yet.....It goes un-noticed. (I know from experiance!!!!! I came within feet of stepping on one in the Adirondacks several years ago while still-hunting a ridge of storm-toppled trees)
One of the many things you hear from bear hunters is the difficulty of trying to pick a spot on a "black blob" in low light.
Well Chuck, I guess you succeeded in your quest. :D
The bottom line is it's whatever works best for you and what you feel comfortable with. The manufacturers spend millions each year trying to convince you that theirs is the best, and if you want to drink the kool-aid of one or the other, then God bless you. I'll continue to buy mine at good will and or the wally world close out rack.
yeah, ok, but he wasn't moving. Again, movement will get you busted. Hmmm, dark mass in a deadfall..
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/jjeffer/BFblind.jpg)
Okay, my two cents, I was born in 67, i grew up in central illinois with poor shotgun hunters, till I graduated and went into the Marine Corps. While in the Marines I was in the Infantry and stationed on Barracks duty where received special training from various federal agencies, we predated what are F.A.S.T. teams now. I then became a Scout/sniper 8541. I have bowhunted for the past 20 years. I can tell you from experiance from not only bowhunting this country, but seeing action in the jungle and desert that camoflauge is what a person makes it. Human being as so intelligent we negate our primal instincts. We see a shape and dismiss it only to have a deer or whatever burst from it a few seconds later. We see a glimps of movement in our perefial vision and doubt it, boom there is a buck gone. For primal instinct animals, this is still life or death, and for us in combat. I have stood in a desert with woodland issues camo on, stalking, a trained observer and got to within 20 yards of him, by using the terrain around us. True camo is not what you are wearing, but how you blend into mother nature surrondings. At the time the "old timer's" wore what was considered camo, to blend in. Though we can debate that man has always wore some type of camo to get his prey. it wasn't until W.W.II, that camo with blotch's was worn and effective. It was the vet's whom brought it back and started using it. Yes, to burst some bubble, Mr. Fred Bear did wear camo in the 60's and was a strong believer in it. Others did too, using the military camo of the time, which didn't take effect till vietnam era. Now, if you play the wind right, and have on clean, scent free camo, that isn't too bright, you can, with using common sense and woodsmanship harvest game. Anything else you do, using a burnt cork to stripe you or clothes, put on patterns to your clothes, tape/pin brush to your clothes (which even with our gillies, we still added local veg), is just added stuff to help movement, period! You can stand in the middle of he woods in a bright spotted red/blue barrel and don't move the game will at first spook, but from watching and studying you, will learn you are not harmful to them, but if they smell you, it is all over.
toddster, Semper Fi Brother!!!!! ;)
As Jerry said earlier,(and I am NOT picking on you LOL) "If green was so great,then all animals wood be green"
During the spring,summer and early fall,the landscape is a sea of green.The animals do not need to be green,there is more than enough green in thier world to hide them. Animals are brown and gray and black,The colors of winter.When the leaves are gone,and the days are short,the animals must blend in with the forest floor.That amounts to acres of light brown leaf litter,gray sticks and limbs and rocks,and old dark brown and black logs and stumps.
Have you ever wondered why the Snowshoe Hare turns white in the winter????? Because way up north in dark conifer swamps there are only 2 colors.....black (dark) and WHITE.
I don't pay a whole lot of mind to what type/pattern of camo that I wear. I have all types and mix and match randomly. I try to match the lightness/darkness to the area I am hunting, but pay little attention to pattern.
Hmmmmm,dark mass in a deadfall.....(NICE pic BTW Jerry) :thumbsup:
I never said "un-seen".....I said un-NOTICED!!!!!
Too many pages to read so please excuse me if it seems I'm just repeating what others have already said.
I believe the "concept" behind camo is to make the user less detectable. For me as far as camo patterns go ASAT is the best for this purpose. That does not mean ASAT is all I use. In fact I don't own any for the sad fact that I have not found any ASAT camo clothing that meets other criteria important to me like material used and functionality. Therefore I tend to hunt mostly in gray or black wool. This fits my style of hunting well. I hunt from the ground and when I'm on the move I stay low to the ground like most other creatures found in the woods I hunt.
As to the question why the critters seem to disappear so easily. I feel its because they are natural. Our synthetic and processed clothing do not reflect/absorb light like natural materials. Another reason to use wool. IMO
When all is said and done I think it really comes down to how we use our chosen camo. If you move too much you're gonna get busted. Some colors/patterns/shapes afford us different degrees of movement. It's a matter of knowing what will do best for you in your particular situation. JMHO
Well, as I tell all my friends who insist on "hunting" from ATVs and messing it up for themselves as well as the rest of us ... the best camo for deer is a deerskin jacket and pants with an antler hat ... the best turkey camo is a tail-spread on your head, etc. All depends on what "best" means to you! :D dave
Just a comment on the big "green" issue. I worked with another gentlemen developing a new camo pattern back in the early 80's. We did a great deal of research and testing. The one thing that really amazed us was that if you take a camera with black and white film and photograph deer in the red phase of summer out in a bean or corn field you will find that they are almost exactly the same. The shade of red and the shade of green look just the same in black and white.
Why not,,,, One leg, woodland,,, the other leg, realtree,,, waist & shirt, asat,,, sleeves could be two other types of camo.
Would this not break up the human outline better? Even if the game caught movement it would have a hard time determining what the heck it was!
:biglaugh:
BAK, You are very right about the Red/Green in a Black & White photo.....
Back in the 70's my Mom took a Black & White photo of my friend and I. I was wearing a Red&Black plaid Woolrich shirt,and my friend was wearing a Green&Black plaid Woolrich shirt.....You couldn't tell which was which!!!!!
Hmmmmm.....I was just thinking..... :rolleyes:
A deer is brown.(with some white in spots)There are some variations in shade and texture of the hair,but pretty much brown from head to tail.
If you look at the NaturalGear pattern,you will find that it's very subtle,with slight changes in shade,and comes in brown(tan),gray,green.....much like ASAT comes in brown,gray,green.....
So I was wondering.....What makes ASAT with it's "bold" pattern,better than NatGear with it's "subtle" pattern?????
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
So I was wondering.....What makes ASAT with it's "bold" pattern,better than NatGear with it's "subtle" pattern?????
I'm thinking it's the "open" space the ASAT does a good job of imitating. Kind of like making the mind think there is nothing there as opposed to seeing a "bush". I'm just guessing here but that's what I think.
Don't know that it is better... just different.
As I said in my first post, and I stand by it.. camouflage is many things, but breaking up your outline is very, maybe most important for what we do.
You can wear black and white and stand out like anything, but if you don't look like a human, you've successfully camouflaged yourself.
Now take that black and white and make it a bit more subdued and you have taken it a step further.
WHAT you are trying to hide from dictates how deeply you need to consider your camo scheme. IF you are trying to hide from human guards with sniffer dogs... you have your work cut out for you... and we have people that are good enough to do just that.
Otherwise, you can still be in plain view with black and white and get away with it in many cases, because you no longer look like danger.
Animals do it all the time. how ??? well they don't tend to come out into the open, and if they are and get worried they run back into cover and stop then to look at what it was that spooked them. The trees, and shrubs, and stuff sure breaks up their outline.
They make excellent use of shadows and shade.. makes sense from a lot of view points... if there is no sun in their eyes they can see you better, and their fur tends not to shine, except for rump patches and the like and they were designed to be seen for warnings.
Re: breakup
Case in point... pig / javelina hunting in Texas as few years back. Standing upright I was pegged every single time I got close, even in full predator green camo. But when I crawled onto the sendero on my hands and knees and started "feeding" on the same corn that they were, they let me ease right up near them. Note: beware.. kneeling on a cactus pod while doing this tends to screw all that work right up.
I am gonna try wearing black.. as a pig suit, or even better (bring the camera) how about a cow suit next time.
Simply having a 2D cow or pig outline held in front of you is a form of camouflage that will work in many cases. Worked for antelope hunters, supposedly worked for native americans when they threw a deer hide over their back and crawled toward the prey.
ChuckC
OK Folks.....You probly already know,I've been messin' with ya!!!!! :bigsmyl:
I think we've all done alot of thinking,and learned alot. :thumbsup:
Here is what we've learned.....
1) Green is GREAT,Brown is BETTER(sometimes)and Gray is BEST!!!!!(in the right place)
2) UV is a "killer" (I'm still on the fence,but I'll give ya this one)
3)Synthetic fibers reflect light and "shine" more than natural ones like wool which absorb light.
4)A bold pattern such as ASAT is GREAT and effectively breaks up your human outline.
5)A subtle pattern such as brown NatGear is GREAT and is very effective at blending in amongst the leaf litter of the forest floor.
6)A "busy" pattern such as MossyOak is GREAT,in it's place,such as "up close and personal".
7)Old plaid shirts probly work as good as anything..... :thumbsup:
and last but not least.....
Ol'woodchucker will continue to wear is thrift store wool sweaters,wool pants,and his "home made" camo jeans. :archer:
(I take old black denim jeans and wash them in bleach untill they come out "dirt" brown)
May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows My Friends
Thanks Chuck !
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
yeah, ok, but he wasn't moving. Again, movement will get you busted. Hmmm, dark mass in a deadfall..
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/jjeffer/BFblind.jpg)
Careful Jerry! I think there's a bear behind ya!
Hmmmmm.....Now that you mention it,I think that's an ear next to Jerry's head!!!!! :scared:
The title of this thread caught my eye, as I have said for years that camoflauge is a concept, not a pattern.
While I own BOXES full of camo, I usually wear a plaid shirt or jacket up top (some of my favorite wool pants are camo, it's the fabric, not the pattern that attracts me). I also have a grey Filson jacket with a very fine black weave in it that disapears in the evening woods.
Yep, I try and match the plaid to the spot (oaks, pines, grass all require different tones of plaid, IMHO). But beyond the pattern, I focus on shadow, a backdrop, etc. to complete my camo "concept". I have deer SMELL me every year, but I can't recall being seen.
Sorry to bring this up- Chuck; but it seems nobody has mentioned using camoflauge netting.
I have a mosquito jacket that breaks up my outline and kind of blends in with the background.
I had mosquito proof camo net pants and a jacket at one time; and it was really effective.
I think - from my experience- that the mosquito net suit is the best camo. But it does snag on everything and therefore has disadvantages. On a warm or hot summer day- camo jean pants and a camo t shirt with the net jacket... really really: is effective.
I do totally agree with movement being high in importance- but too: not moving can be. If I am hunkered down in some brush; or in a treestand and the wind is blowing hard: or stalking and the wind is moving everything- I move so that I don't stand out. If I am in rocks I freeze when a deer looks my way while I am stalking.
I do think it is kind of silly (isn't it?) to wear matching camo tops and bottoms. Its not a fashion statement :) I think wearing different camo pants and tops - breaks up the human form.
I hunted in totally open country once in winter; and wore white with green grass like stripes; and solid white camo pants. I had a guy in dark green camo walk by me a few feet away; and he did not see me. After he passed by I had to chuckle; and when I did..a voice from the snow next to me said "think your smart- don't you?". It was a longbow hunter: in even better white camo. :rolleyes:
humbled again......
To follow up on Osagetree's suggestion, I'm surprised that some camo manufacturer hasn't done that, i.e., split the camo in half lengthwise, that is two different camo patterns that run vertically on the garmet -- half the top and one pants leg one pattern, the other half another pattern. Seems it would work particularly well for tree stand hunting.
I've been thinking about doing that for many years, just never got around to trying it. Of course, it neccesitates buying two sets of camo and taking them apart and putting them back together. Too much cost and effort for the result. But if it were done in the manufacturing process, it wouldn't add much to the cost. Anybody tried it?
Bowhunting out West for Elk or Mulies in the high country, I use the following:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/scan0001-3.jpg)
My buddy Bamboo uses this setup for whitetails...also uses ASAT pants...
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/P1070002.jpg)
Normally, its all ASAT for me late fall when the leaves are down...
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/P1260035.jpg)
Whatever camo pattern fits your environment, especially ground hunting. Tree stand...most any pattern will work if you remain noiseless and motionless.
I live and hunt in the West...maybe it's different in different places, but most "western" patterns are dark too...until you wash them a few times. Then they dull up and fit right in.
In the end, no camo will hide you if you move too fast, skyline yourself or hunt with the wind.
I have had deer and elk so close I could rock them while in blaze orange. But I wasn't moving...I couldn't move. I think camo gives you an edge at the moment of truth when you "have to move" to draw your bow.
Whatever clothing choice, I think it has to be quiet and dull more than anything else.
Happy Hunting!
i am with you joe on that one. :thumbsup:
OK I will go back and read all the other replies after I put in my 2 cents.
First off animals are not a solid color. They are counter shaded. Lighter on the bottom than the top to counter act the sunlight and shadow effect. They also have blended color coats. They also use cover well and move with stealth, or remain still for hours to avoid predation.
Now to the concept of camoflauge. It is not only the breaking up of the outline, it is the blending in to the surroundings, it is the effort to become invisible for all intents and purposes. as light does not pass through us real invisibility is not currently possible. For true camoflauge you must you your surroundings to aid you and use them as well as your clothing. As animals see farther into the spectrum than we do I think UV Killer sprays are a god send. Also do not wash hunting clothes in your common everyday laundry detergent as it has UV brighteners in it that will make clothes washed in GLOW in the UV part of the spectrum. OK now to address the camo that is available. Well I will only talk about the one I personally think is best and I will also say why.
ASAT without a doubt. Truly is All Season All Terrain. And the pinnacle of ASAT is the 3D Pro Vanish leafy suit. And if the wind moves the cut out leaves on the suit it will move the real leaves on the trees, bushes and weeds around you and so you will not draw attention just because of that. Now here is why ASAT is so good. It makes you look to a prey animal like your body is disassembled and in three different distances to them and as it is in various sized pieces at different distances you don't look like anything recognizable at any of those distances. You see the black lines look close, the brown lines look farther way and the light tan background looks booth close where the sun hits it and infinately far in oput of the sun. The 3D Pro Vanish cuts you up into smaller, less recognizable pieces and blends you into your surroundings simutaneously. Game animals look through you for the lack of a better way of putting it. So you aren't there. I was videoed wearing original ASAT pattern on a hog hunt and standing in the open it is easy to see why the patter is effective in the low morning light when the sun hot me parts of me disappeared in the frame. It was weird to see but it solidified my opinion about ASAT. I wont wear anything else in the woods as far as camo goes. OK maybe that was my 5 cents but I could go on. I won't for now to keep the post readable.
C-2 your are so right. I had a hen turkey this spring nearly hop on my lap. The only thing that tipped her off was that I blinked when she was 10ft away. That is an accurate description, the animals look through you.
Not to cut on Predator camo because it is still great stuff, but in a test last season between the two, I shot 3 deer in ASAT and 1 in Predator Fall Gray, both given nearly equal amount of hunting time. I put away the Predator after getting busted towards the end of the season. I had to get that last tag filled!!
weekend warrior has a very excellent few pix of a piebald doe in another thread. This very much shows an example of one aspect I was trying to put across.
Although there is a lot of white on the deer, and white obviously stands out to the eye, that deer is very well hidden... in plain view... because it is broken up and doesn't look like a deer. Looks like something yes... it is not hidden from view... but not like a deer.
The same effect happens when wearing ASAT and Predator style camo clothing, or Hawaian shirts for that matter. Yeah, something is there, but it doesn't look like danger.
ChuckC
The following video clip on Cephalopode camo abilities (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/206) is as entertaining as impressive and one can certainly learn a little about the "concept" of camoflage.
Note: Longer wave lenghts are easily absorbed by water, so under water colors are subdude (?word) or suppressed or whatever this is called. Only close to the surface or in artificial light, they shine. Pattern and form are more important here. These cephalopodes are truely amazing and let a chameleon look like a camoflage greenhorn :readit:
David Gallo: "I am a geologist by training" - thats good! Then you should know about everything :D
We will probably never know what animals we hunt see things as. I believe that our skin must be covered(face-hands etc).
The camo is something to sell, there will always be a new "better" pattern every year.
For those brave soldiers hunting man camo take on a whole new meaning.
That is where all this started. If the old fatigues didn't have all those pockets they would have probably never been used for hunting and the market would have developed differently.
SL
I think that most camo pattern are made to decieve hunters more than to decieve game. If it looks good then you want to buy it because you think it looks good. Last spring my buddy and I were doing some filming for his video series and he had a new camo sponser, well he brought me some to wear on our 3 state turkey hunt. Well when he pulled it out the first thought that went through my mind was that this had to be some of the ugliest stuff I had ever laid my eyes on and we would never be able to get a turkey close enough to kill with a shotgun and definately not with a bow. Well 18 days and 21 turkeys later I had changed my mind, so what looks good may not always be good and what looks bad may not always be bad.
QuoteI think that most camo pattern are made to decieve hunters more than to decieve game. If it looks good then you want to buy it because you think it looks good. LA Bowhunter
Yup.. I couldn't agree more. I have some camo from the ugly WWII camo from the late 60's and 70's to Mossy Oak Breakup today. From time to time I use it. But, I prefer wools, in plaids and earthtones. The main thing is to keep your clothing as clean and odor free as possible.
Good Thread, Chuck!
I agree that the most noticible thing to game is not our bodies - its our faces. I have used camo grease paint; and netting; and I have noticed a lot of people use netting. It does not allow the animal to focus on our human features.
and it works for the rest of the body too.
Thank You Steve!!!!! How have you been My Friend?????
Here is a short video explaining why ASAT works so well. I thought it was interesting.
http://www.huntingcircle.com/asat_camo.php
ttt, :archer:
QuoteOriginally posted by rbbhunt:
Food for thought: Deer have walked within feet of me (I hunt on the ground)while wearing blaze orange and just walked by. Maybe look for a minute and then move on. If I had moved or they scented me though, the jig would be up!!!
rbbhunt has it. You don't move they wont see you. The reason I wear camoflage is because we have to move to draw our bow on a deer sitting just feet or a few yards away. They catch that movement. Around here something dark works much better than something light. I've found over the years the Mossy Oak stuff works great for me in our trees and foliage.
I had a long sleeve shirt on just like the pattern of the short sleeve when I shot this deer. He was 12 yards away from me with his right eye on my side when I drew. He never saw it coming.
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/kyTJ/Buck%202009/P9060596-1.jpg)
Coming in late on this. Deer are not camo but they are light reflecting neutral. This is why wool and knits work better than hard or smooth fabrics, regardless of camo pattern. I think KOM website will give a good perspective on what you should try to acheive to remain undetected. Realtree, Mossy Oak etc, etc. makes you look like a tree. ASAT looks like the space between two trees. the animals eye is not drawn to the object but seems to look thru or past it. Tom
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w31/clwalkerpic/IMG_1142Medium.jpg)
This work for me.
"Why is it that most big game animals can "dissapear" into nothing.....and they are solid colored?????"
Movement is probably more critical than the type of camo used.
Most big game animals, move very slowly and deliberatly, other than when they are startled.
I would say going slow is just as important as camo.
Here we go again...... :) :help: :archer:
Lots of opinions here.I have found that keeping your face and hands covered is the most important thing.What has worked best for me is wearing different patterns for shirt,pants,hat,gloves and face mask.Overall the ability to remain motionless when game is close seems to be the biggest factor.
My son, an artist who has studied these things, thinks that colors and contrasts that best aid in camouflage are those that create the impression of space rather than solidity. For example, a deer is generally darker on the upper part of his body than the lower, which from a distance in cover does not create so much of a blob, but rather creates an expanse of color/shade that doesn't draw attention. When seen from a distance many animals are thus more or less invisible. How many times has a deer walked behind a small bush and vanished? You simply don't notice the shape unless there is movement. Perhaps a good ghillie works the same way. The idea is not so much to look like a bush as it is to not look like much of anything at all. I feel that midrange colors and shades that match well with your background genrally work best, and this does not necessarily have to mean a commercial camo pattern. In fact, I think some of the commercial patterns are designed for marketing related eye appeal to human buyers as much as the actual camo effect. But, as has been already stated, lack of un-natural movement is just as important a facor in camo as the clothing itself. I'm certainly no expert, but this concept seems reasonable to me.
Skyline apparition has always been my favorite pattern, hard to find anymore these days.
Now Curt, You know it's just not fair comparing ANYONE to you!!!!!
You're a killing machine My Friend!!!!! You could kill things wearing nothing but a pink loincloth!!!!! :eek: :notworthy:
Com'on Chuck....this is three threads you've brought TTT today....
What I'm saying is that you make it sound like camo doesn't work....maybe we don't need it to kill stuff, but the concept of blending in with your surroundings is sound and proven!
Camoflage works!!! Some works a lot better the others....
For you guys that are wearing plaid thinking,"I'm not wearing camo"..not so, you are. Your still wearing contrasting colors that help break up the human silhouette.....
For guy wearing earth tone solid clothing...your still wearing those colors because you're trying to blend in...again,camouflage!
If you guys really want to go "no camo", go hunt in solid color bright clothing. Then you're really not wearing anything that blends. To me that's a "no camo challenge"....
I don't see too many wearing yellow, orange, chartreuse solid colored clothing during bow season....how's that for a "no camo challenge"? :archer:
Some observations:
Dark blobs in the woods are natural and plentiful.
Reflected light is natural and plentiful and that includes UV.
It is hard to pick out stuff in one dimension; relatively easy in three-dimension. A guy in a shaggy suit stands out like a sore thumb in 3-D. These photo commercials showing hidden hunters in camo is a sham. They are easily picked out in real life "if" you are looking for them.
In the mid 1960s I was in the artillery [forward observer] and trained in the art of observation. That's not to say I'm any better at it than the next guy, but I did get some good lessons in how poor at it the average person is. Without going into a lot of detail, it is amazing how easy it is to fool one's ability to observe what is sitting in plain sight.
Within the past couple of years I've attended some driving courses. Besides getting to power slide around wet parking lots and running courses at high speed, a couple of classroom presentations were provided. One in particular, which all participants flunked [including this highly trained and experienced observer], kinda' explains how an animal the size of a deer can just appear. :)
We were shown a video clip of a group of folks dribbling and passing basketballs around. It was a test to determine how observant we were and the object was to count the number of times a basketball was passed to another person. When the video finished, the class was asked for the count. Most got it correct. Next, the instructor asked if anyone saw the person in the gorilla suit. Silence. We thought he was pulling our leg, but when he rewound the video and played it back, this time wilh all looking for the guy in the gorilla suit, we were dumbfounded as there he was, even waving at the camera. Now, how in the heck do you not see a man in a gorilla suit??
Several of us who attended the course were "not" convinced the deal was kosher. It just happened that one of our group recently attended another course where the same video was used. Having once been duped this fellow was not paying attention to basketballs being passed, but looking for the man in the gorilla suit. He was there, so we are now convinced of its authenticity.
Attempting to be unobtrusive in the wild is an exercise in the "art of illusion." What you wear is only one piece of the puzzle.
Good stuff L A...
If deer, a camo man and a bright red silhouette of a tree are in that field which would you see first ? Which would spook something ?
Camo is of the type that makes you dissapear and of the type that makes you "not look like a human" while in plain sight.
A ghillie suit in brown and green does both (if of course the background is a similar brown and green. What if it is blue ?) A ghillie suit in blaze orange is certainly plainly seen, but doesn't look like anything dangerous and is overlooked.
A black silhouette of a man would likely tend to scare deer.
ChuckC
I could write a book here...but I'll just listen.
:eek: :cool:
Didn't read all the posts, but enough to see that many still look at hunting camo's effectiveness thru human hunters eye's vs the animal they are hunting. ASAT and some of the open patterns are effective because they are designed to fool the prey, not the hunter.
Ever notice how well a deer sees another deer. Remember we are trying to hide from them..
How well they hide from us, even though they are basically a solid shape only tells us how bad we are at seeing them.
As Curt said, "For all you guys wearing plaid and thinking your not wearing camoflage....."
Well Curt, This is very true!!! But, It's not about "blending in"..... It's about "Bucking the System"!!!!! :biglaugh:
Good info. from alot of hunters. Four days ago had two deer four steps from me sitting on the ground. Wearing old military bdu pants and sticks-n-limbs longsleeved t-shirt over some layers. Stuck one for the freezer after trying to draw on one for 30 minutes as they moved closer and closer. I walked up on a friend wearing this stuff which made a believer out of me. Blessings to all.
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
2) Why is it that most big game animals can "dissapear" into nothing.....and they are solid colored?????
(Now this should be going for a while LOL) :bigsmyl:
i dont want to touch the ASAT question. Lets think about this. Can an animal disappear anywhere. NO NO they cant. Are they solid colored No not really.
Now lets think about this. An animal know where it color works the best to it advantage. Right? If you spook or it is alarmed it is not going to go somewhere that it knows that it can be easily seen. It will go somewhere that it knows will work to its advantage. Hence cover. It wants to break your picture of it. Now if a deer or elkk puts sticks in front of it it gets harder to see. Now you know why ASAT works too.
Alittle more interesting reading.... :archer:
Let me start with I personally don't care what you wear. You can wear a thong and a kilt if that's your thing.
But if you use what you think is best to look down on others because they use something different you're nothing but an elitist and a bully.
Second, I've had deer, pigs, elk, bear and other game look right at me wearing Jean's and an earth tone t shirt, and when I didn't move and I had the wind, they moved on unspooked. However I didn't try to draw a bow on them and I know from the ones I've tried to they don't always stick around for that.
I kill a lot of animals. Two kinds of bows. Rifles, shotguns, airguns.
Even most of my modern bow kills are 15 yards and less because I hunt the same set ups with my trad bows.
My biggest problem with not killing more is I take work too dang serious and after 50 hours work I get lazy and stay home.
Movement (lack of) is key. Background and fore ground cover is key. Wind is key. Drawing on an animal not alert and doesn't see the draw is key.
Worrying about if I pay for camo and you pay for plaid is interesting. To say the least.
But then again I'm actually friends, business partners and landowners with guys who hunt with modern bows exclusively.
So guess I'm a heretic anyway.
Wool blend Pendelton shirt. I really think the material is important. You can put a great "camo" print on a nylon sheen material and just ruin the flatness. "Glow & Sheen" is very prevalent in some of the more modern "camo" clothing. I really like Ed Ashby take on camo...
(https://i.imgur.com/IfkrmPA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2bXZ1Km.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq-dQtnTwiQ
Yes the under armour type materials don't have dull, blend in effect.
WoW.... a 10 year jump from post 83, to post 84, with the same guys posting..... :clapper:
.....one thing that hasn't been brought up is UV.... if any of your clothing "lights up" under a black light, game can see you....
.... it's worth spraying your hunting clothes and gear with a UV blocker...
Quote from: gnome on November 25, 2020, 04:34:11 PM
WoW.... a 10 year jump from post 83, to post 84, with the same guys posting..... :clapper:
.....one thing that hasn't been brought up is UV.... if any of your clothing "lights up" under a black light, game can see you....
.... it's worth spraying your hunting clothes and gear with a UV blocker...
One more thing to add: I think deer can recognize a human face if they're close enough to you, so wearing camo face paint or some kind of face covering (or even a hood/bucket hat) helps.
Perhaps we could use this sort of concept to "mask" our appearance.