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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: JohnnyBa on May 09, 2023, 10:13:35 AM

Title: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 09, 2023, 10:13:35 AM
I guess archery, sort of like golf, is a very unique sport/activity. One persons sweet spot is another's forbidden fruit. I first picked up a bow and as a kid, but it never stuck and later in life, after retiring from USAF, I picked up a Samick Sage. I shot the bow pretty well, but again, it just did not "stick". I can't even remember the bows # or how I shot, 3 under or split, I think split due to at the time I don't think I had ever heard of 3 under. I knew squat, put the nock on the string at 0, bought arrows and shot. I don't remember how they even flew. Well, as time progressed, 20 years later and in 2022, I again picked up a bow after playing with making a self bow. I got the cheap Black Hunter Long bow that was all the rage on YouTube for best budget bow. I immediately fell in love and when I first shot it, I shot split. For some reason that just is not comfortable on the inside of my top draw finger. Gloves were ok but tabs were out. This is when I saw a vid on 3 under, high, under the eye anchor and that's been what I do since. Today, I tried split again and the discomfort is there but darn, the bow was quiet. I just could not get used to aiming, I shoot instinctive and I was always high left. Did not want to spend too much time there as my current style just can't afford to be side tracked. But what is up with the quietness of the split release? I just can't make it quiet 3 under, not like split.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: LookMomNoSights on May 09, 2023, 11:28:45 AM
The noise you hear when shooting 3 under are the whisperings of the archery spirits long past,  telling you that your hand is in the wrong place. :laughing:

In all seriousness,  I wonder about this too and will be watching to see what people say.  Maybe has to do with the nock end of the arrow only supported on the underside of the nock during the draw and release cycle?  Nock point height a factor too?  Interested to see what people say .........  but I have also noticed this to be absolutely true from my personal experience.  I shoot a tab,  split.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: BAK on May 09, 2023, 11:40:39 AM
Well, shooting instinctive never required that I site down the arrow shaft.  I don't like how it feels, and I don't like the noise it makes.  I seem to hit plenty close enough to the bullseye shooting split so for all of that, that is where I'll stay.  You do what makes you happy.   :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 09, 2023, 11:46:31 AM
The noise is from the bow not being tillered for 3 under.

I shoot split so I have control over arrow when I have to reverse cant.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: lopey15 on May 09, 2023, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Terry Green on May 09, 2023, 11:46:31 AM
The noise is from the bow not being tillered for 3 under.

I shoot split so I have control over arrow when I have to reverse cant.



I believe Terry is right...I have a Toelke Whistler that is tillered for split but I shoot 3 under. It's quiet but not as quiet as my Toelke Whip that is tillered for 3 under. I will say that my heavier wood arrows really make a big difference as far as sound is concerned. It's an actual whisper when I shoot them out of either bow! 
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: black velvet on May 09, 2023, 01:18:27 PM
Try raising the nocking point.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Pat B on May 09, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
30+ years ago I learned to shoot split fingers, to nock over the nocking point and draw so my middle finger touches the corner of my mouth then release. So far it has worked very well for me so why change.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 09, 2023, 02:36:23 PM
Quote from: Pat B on May 09, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
30+ years ago I learned to shoot split fingers, to nock over the nocking point and draw so my middle finger touches the corner of my mouth then release. So far it has worked very well for me so why change.  :dunno:
Sorry, this topic was not meant to convince anyone to change shooting styles, just had new archer questions. Glad your shooting style has worked for you, ask me in 29 years how mine has.....
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 09, 2023, 02:39:43 PM
Thanks all for the great info. I guess I was "underestimating" nock heights for the two styles, a lot closer than I thought. I played and have it set at right 'tween 1/2 and 5/8's and my groups immediately became more consistent! 
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: M60gunner on May 09, 2023, 03:58:53 PM
Raising the nock point should've made the bow less noisy as well. I just can't get into 3 under, tried it some years back and it seemed to go well until I tried shooting from an elevated stand. I shot over all the time. I went back to split.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Pine on May 09, 2023, 04:20:33 PM
[attachment=1]
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 09, 2023, 05:25:32 PM
Quote from: Pine on May 09, 2023, 04:20:33 PM
[attachment=1,msg3030705]

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 09, 2023, 07:21:51 PM
I've shot both.  Split is less loud.  The tiller of the bow does matter noise wise although as said raising the nock point allows one tillered more for split to be shot three under just as well.  Just a little different sound.
A bow tillered for three under allows me to have a lower nock point, similar to what my split bows were when I shot split, so I've had them adjusted.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: katman on May 09, 2023, 08:25:52 PM
This may help
https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: SeaBear on May 09, 2023, 11:40:17 PM
Moving over from the compound world and a career in shooting firearms I was convinced I would be a 3 under gap shooter. I tried both gap and instinctive. When I got to trying 3 under and gap I hit low, adjusted, then skimmed over the target and killed a spray paint can I use to paint target faces  :biglaugh: I tried it again later and skimmed over the target and killed a 2x4 in my shed. After that I found myself shooting split finger and relatively vertical with little to no cant. when i do try to cant to bow I start flinging arrows. I was shooting really well but couldn't figure out why I was more inconsistent at certain ranges until I tried closing my non-dominant eye. I realized my anchor was too low and at some ranges my dominant eye was staring at limb. I raised my anchor point and bought/trimmed a tab. It was like magic and I've been shooting really well/consistent since. I did get really bad pain on the inside of my pointer finger when drawing and found out that my wrist was not matching the angle of my bow. I spent a day relaxing my forearm and matching the angle/cant of my bow with my hand and wrist and no longer get a sore index finger which was from being wedged. I love shooting a glove and a tab but find myself primarily using a tab because my glove started to stink after sweating in it.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 10, 2023, 09:04:00 AM
Quote from: SeaBear on May 09, 2023, 11:40:17 PM
Moving over from the compound world and a career in shooting firearms I was convinced I would be a 3 under gap shooter. I tried both gap and instinctive. When I got to trying 3 under and gap I hit low, adjusted, then skimmed over the target and killed a spray paint can I use to paint target faces  :biglaugh: I tried it again later and skimmed over the target and killed a 2x4 in my shed. After that I found myself shooting split finger and relatively vertical with little to no cant. when i do try to cant to bow I start flinging arrows. I was shooting really well but couldn't figure out why I was more inconsistent at certain ranges until I tried closing my non-dominant eye. I realized my anchor was too low and at some ranges my dominant eye was staring at limb. I raised my anchor point and bought/trimmed a tab. It was like magic and I've been shooting really well/consistent since. I did get really bad pain on the inside of my pointer finger when drawing and found out that my wrist was not matching the angle of my bow. I spent a day relaxing my forearm and matching the angle/cant of my bow with my hand and wrist and no longer get a sore index finger which was from being wedged. I love shooting a glove and a tab but find myself primarily using a tab because my glove started to stink after sweating in it.
Thanks SeaBear, I am plagued by the same issues you seem to have fought through and I appreciate the feedback. I will work on hand, wrist, forearm alignment as my pointer finger suffers a bit too. I also seem to shoot more consistent when bow has zero cant. Not sure what the "real deal" is with canting but I do know it changes aim point and angle to target immediately showing inconsistencies. I guess some can't get used to it, but right now, all the math my brain can do is get on target with bow straight up and down.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: two4hooking on May 10, 2023, 09:09:14 AM
Split is quieter for me for sure, also the benefit is the ability to reverse the cant and take game shots that would otherwise be unavailable to me especially with a long longbow like I prefer.  Reverse can't with a 3 under and the arrow falls away from the rest unless your nock is way too tight.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 10, 2023, 09:14:01 AM
Quote from: two4hooking on May 10, 2023, 09:09:14 AM
Split is quieter for me for sure, also the benefit is the ability to reverse the cant and take game shots that would otherwise be unavailable to me especially with a long longbow like I prefer.  Reverse can't with a 3 under and the arrow falls away from the rest unless your nock is way too tight.
Yep, that is a witnessed fact that Terry G. Showed me when he came to rescue my deplorable backyard, unsupervised shooting. One of the reasons I am trying my darndest to re-convert to split. I can still see where 3 under is beneficial to some tactics.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: smokin joe on May 10, 2023, 01:49:25 PM
I switched to 3 under about 15 tears ago. I liked it, so I stayed with it. I think going back to split, if I wanted to,  would be fairly easy.

Some thoughts:
-- 3-under can be very quiet, but you have to tune your set up for 3-under. The tune --brace height and nock height--  will not be the same as it would be for split.
-- Your ring finger will be farther from the arrow with 3 under. If you have a tendency to drag that ring finger it might make your bow louder. The solution to that is to take the ring finger off of the string completely and shoot two under with just your pointer and second fingers.
-- The point of split vs 3-under is to go with a style that is comfortable and repeatable. I don't think that one is superior to the other.
-- As we age, arthritis becomes a factor. I think that 3-under is a touch more comfortable for my arthritic fingers.

Your results may be different from mine.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JohnnyBa on May 10, 2023, 01:56:51 PM
Quote from: smokin joe on May 10, 2023, 01:49:25 PM
I switched to 3 under about 15 tears ago. I liked it, so I stayed with it. I think going back to split, if I wanted to,  would be fairly easy.

Some thoughts:
-- 3-under can be very quiet, but you have to tune your set up for 3-under. The tune --brace height and nock height--  will not be the same as it would be for split.
-- Your ring finger will be farther from the arrow with 3 under. If you have a tendency to drag that ring finger it might make your bow louder. The solution to that is to take the ring finger off of the string completely and shoot two under with just your pointer and second fingers.
-- The point of split vs 3-under is to go with a style that is comfortable and repeatable. I don't think that one is superior to the other.
-- As we age, arthritis becomes a factor. I think that 3-under is a touch more comfortable for my arthritic fingers.

Your results may be different from mine.

I hear ya on the arthritic finger pain, this pursuit of changing to split may be a moot point. Will try a thing or two, but may be back to three under. At this point my knock height or brace height has not changed and arrow flight is spot on either way with me doing my part.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 10, 2023, 03:41:29 PM
This might help with finger pain.....

https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=175231.msg2955797;topicseen#msg2955797
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: mjh on May 10, 2023, 09:08:55 PM
All's I know and I don't know much is that when I switched to 3 under my groups tightened right up nicely.   When I do my part the arrows go where they are supposed to more consistently.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 10, 2023, 10:03:52 PM
Three under helped me.  But as much as because it gave me a consistent and repeatable aiming system.  The proof is in my 3D scores but also in my effective kill zone.
But it's not about me.  It's about you.  Try it.  Get a light draw weight bow and play with different anchor points and split v three under.  Find what is yours then own it.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: PrimitivePete on May 11, 2023, 11:12:57 AM
Having extensively tried both, I settled on split because it was more comfortable to use, stronger anchor point for me, repeatable location and most of all better string pressure point, meaning most of the string is being held by the middle finger. For whatever reason 3 under had me anchoring all of the place on my face, I could never find that point on my face to feel solid. That is more about personal preference, since everyone is built a bit different.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: JAH518 on May 11, 2023, 01:52:09 PM
my 2 cents

A. Tiller of the bow is a possibility. However I have a Black Hunter for the wife and she shoots it split and I shoot it 3-under no difference in sound. 

B. Nock point is off and arrow is striking the bow producing the added sound. Typically with 3 under the nock point needs to be a good bit higher. So if it is to low and
    you switch to spit the sound will defiantly reduce.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Kirkll on May 11, 2023, 03:13:23 PM
There are a lot of opinions based on what's a popular belief rather than what is really true.   I'm of the opinion that tillering a bow for 3 under is an old wives tale myself.... If the limbs are balanced properly there is nothing that a little string nock adjustment wont take care of, unless you are string walking.. and Sometimes an elevated rest will help out....

Keep in mind something.... every bow is built a bit different, and how the limbs are balanced. Where you apply the pressure to the grip, the arrow rest height from pivot point , or pressure point can and will change from one bow to the next too.... You just need to adjust the variables to come up with the sweet spot.

Bottom line is that if you balance the limbs properly you will not be able to tell the difference between shooting split, or 3 under if you are doing it right with a clean release.... using a deep hook with an over sized tab shooting 3 under can definitely increase the noise level...

3 under shooting helps a lot of guys using a gap aiming method bringing your point on closer and your gap smaller at close ranges...   .02 cents     Kirk
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 11, 2023, 07:58:07 PM
Well that's great.  You have an opinion. Mine is a little different.  However, that. Doesn't make me right.  But it does make it right for me.  Don't pop my bubble. 🤣😂🤣
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Pine on May 11, 2023, 08:30:24 PM
[attachment=1]
WOW, HOW FAR CAN YOU GO DOWN THERE?
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 11, 2023, 09:12:55 PM
Kirk, I'm not sure about 'wives tale'.... there have be a bunch and I mean a bunch over the 20 years we've been here talking about a used bow they bought being loud.  They were asked if they shot split or 3 under. When they said 3 under they were told to shoot spit and see if it was quieter. 99% if they said yes. Meaning it wasn't tillered for 3 under.  Heck they are even tillered different, not even, for spit for a reason....

"A bow with a stiffer upper limb is upside down and is already out of tiller.
    No bow should ever have a stiffer upper limb.

A bow with a stiffer upper limb will cause the upper limb to recoil faster than the lower limb and likely cause hand shock because it stops faster than the lower limb.

When bow limbs are of equal length, to make both limbs synchronous, the bowyer MUST make the upper limb slightly weaker to match the longer lower limb so that they recoil at exactly the same speed.

If your bow has equal length limbs outside the handle, and there is a greater gap between the string and limb in one limb [positive tiller], you should turn it so that that limb is the upper limb and shoot it that way".

Dean Torges
 
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Kirkll on May 12, 2023, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: Terry Green on May 11, 2023, 09:12:55 PM
Kirk, I'm not sure about 'wives tale'.... there have be a bunch and I mean a bunch over the 20 years we've been here talking about a used bow they bought being loud.  They were asked if they shot split or 3 under. When they said 3 under they were told to shoot spit and see if it was quieter. 99% if they said yes. Meaning it wasn't tillered for 3 under.  Heck they are even tillered different, not even, for spit for a reason....

"A bow with a stiffer upper limb is upside down and is already out of tiller.
    No bow should ever have a stiffer upper limb.

A bow with a stiffer upper limb will cause the upper limb to recoil faster than the lower limb and likely cause hand shock because it stops faster than the lower limb.

When bow limbs are of equal length, to make both limbs synchronous, the bowyer MUST make the upper limb slightly weaker to match the longer lower limb so that they recoil at exactly the same speed.

If your bow has equal length limbs outside the handle, and there is a greater gap between the string and limb in one limb [positive tiller], you should turn it so that that limb is the upper limb and shoot it that way".

Dean Torges



Well Terry..... I think if you read what followed that "Old Wives Tale" opinion of mine, you'll notice that i said that there are many variables.... If a bow has it's limbs balanced right to the pivot point or pressure point being applied to the grip, The actual tiller measurement means nothing.....you can have a bow that has perfectly balanced limbs that actually measures negative tiller depending on "Where" the limbs are bending and how even they are top and bottom limb..... 

When you pick up a new bow to you... The first thing you do is find where the limbs are balanced at... Some bows with low wrist grips, you need find the sweet spot on the pressure point first. Others that have a higher wrist grip shape are typically balanced to the deepest part of the grip requiring the pressure point be applied in the throat, and avoid heeling down on the grip....

For example.....If you want me to build you a custom bow.....besides the design and length, the most important part of fitting this to you is to match your natural wrist angle on the grip, and see where you are going to apply the pressure.... For you... considering you like to have the option of canting your bow to different angles, i would keep your shelf height relatively close to your bow hand. Say 3/4" above center. I'd also make sure the shelf was cut too-center, and not past center at all. So you tune the arrows to paradox, and not effect the windage at all by canting the bow.... Shooting right off the knuckle allows you to do that.

If i see you are putting more pressure on your lower thumb pad than the throat of the grip, the odds are the limb balance will end up an 1/8" positive on tiller measurement.... Some guys say that would be tillering for 3 under right there..... Me.... It's just limb balance tuning when i build the bow.

With all that said and done, you could still shoot that bow split or 3 under no problem and not even notice the difference after you adjust the string nock location.     Kirk
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 12, 2023, 01:28:08 PM
I hear ya on that Kirk. 

I yield to the grip, I can shoo straight, my selfbow all the way to a low wrist recurve type.  The only grip I do not like at all is a palm swell. I can shoot it no problem, but it's like carrying around a softball all day.  :help:
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 12, 2023, 01:30:10 PM
Kirk I don't disagree with your assessment.  I disagree your assessment is what people want in a custom bow. 
In my opinion you as a builder should be able to build a bow that suites me.  And I don't want my nock at 5/8 or 3/4 because "all you have to do is raise your nock point".  Build it so it's within standards that don't require those extreme adjustments or require me to use extremes to quiet the bow like 14gpp arrows or limb silencers or . . . Otherwise it's just another set of pretty laminates.   

Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Kirkll on May 13, 2023, 01:00:43 AM
All I need is a few pictures of your hand placement at full draw from different angles, and if possible another grip that you like the feel of, and I can build something that you will be very happy with.....

Different  Archers  have different ideas of what they want in a custom bow. There are many different designs that I build. I've spent a lot of time prototyping and shooting all of these myself too.

There are the long bow lovers that want a light weight D shape bow that they can shoot at any cant angle for hunting that has a decent trajectory with hunting weight arrows from 9-10 gpp.

Then there are the guys that want something with more mass weight in the same design that shoots a lighter weight shaft at higher performance levels and flat trajectory for 3D competition... and ones that do both...

There are ILF fans that love tinkering with their set up and use elevated rests, & shoot a more center shot set up using a plunger and a flipper rest. Some like the ILF set up for shooting off the shelf and hunt with them more...... These risers are built differently than a competition bow in some cases, and are more forgiving when shooting at different cant angles.

There are short bows, and longer length bows... hybrid long bows, and recurve bows.  Some are configured with static tips , or have a working recurve that opens up at the tail end of the draw..... there are one piece, two piece, and 3 pc configurations, and I've built them all at one time or another with very happy customers.

I don't think we disagree on my assessment of what people want in a custom bow at all. Everyone has different needs. I can, and do build my bows to exact specifications for my customers.

But... I draw the line building the ASL long bow designs in a straight or string follow shape unstrung...I don't care for effects of the low pre load, or low string tension of that design at all, and I don't build them.....There are other bowyers that specialize in that design that cater to the HH fan club.

but I do build one I call " The Boot Hill Express" with enough back set to take the kick out of them, that looks exactly the same when strung and has a bit more horse power too....

Give me a call sometime and we can talk bows if you like. I'm always open to different ideas and different ways of thinking....    Kirk
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Terry Green on May 13, 2023, 09:24:32 AM
"There are the long bow lovers that want a light weight D shape bow that they can shoot at any cant angle for hunting that has a decent trajectory with hunting weight arrows from 9-10 gpp."

Let's don't leave out those that want a heavy weight bow that they can cant at any angle.

:goldtooth:
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: smokin joe on May 13, 2023, 09:35:31 AM
I am really fascinated by what Kirk has to say when the subject of bow design and building comes up. Great information presented with clarity.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: SS Snuffer on May 13, 2023, 10:33:09 AM
All I can add is try a NEET tab with the felt spacer. It will keep your finger from getting sore, at least it worked for me. It's a cheap thing to try. They come in 3 sizes. I keep 3 on hand at all times.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 13, 2023, 09:21:18 PM
Sorry I got busy with stuff.
Kirk I'm sure you can.  Randy has taken and modified my grips after seeing me shoot that made a big difference in my ability to enjoy shooting them. 
I wasn't pointing at you specifically but the "custom" bow market in general.
I would imagine what is hardest for a bowyer is a customer who really doesn't know what or why he likes a certain grip.  And I'll be the first to admit my ability to explain that is awkward at best.
However, most bows I can adjust well enough to go shoot decent. It just takes a few arrows.  That said I've bought a couple of second hand  custom bows that I shot well that I couldn't live with how loud they were (says the guy who is 85% dead in his left ear) so I traded them.   Could I have gotten them quiet with heavy arrows and such?  Probably.  But not my cup of tea.
So we as customers need to know what to ask for, be specific and realistic, and work with a bowyer who wants to produce that bow for you.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Kirkll on May 14, 2023, 11:04:01 AM
Yup.... It can be challenging building a custom bow for someone that doesn't really know why he likes the feel of a certain grip shape over another one. But it doesn't need to be complicated at all. If the customer has a bow already they really like the feel of, and shoots well.... If I can see photos of them at full draw from different angles, I can easily replicate the right wrist rotation and grip angle that determines the pressure point at which the limbs are balanced.

Now the really tough ones are guys that have already been down the custom bow rabbit hole a couple times, and still haven't found something compatible with their shooting form. They are frustrated and hesitant to commit to another custom build, and do not have anything they like the feel of or can shoot well. Those are the most difficult customers to build for successfully.

A perfect example is the bow I built for "Doc Noc" years ago. Dave Landis passed away some time ago, but has a few write ups posted in the testimonial portion of my web site. He became a close friend of mine after our bow building adventure and we stayed in daily contact for many years....

Dave had a very unique wrist rotation issue. He also had VERY large paws on him too.......Due to previous issues with an elbow injury, his natural wrist rotation was very extreme. When I asked why he couldn't change that rotation a bit to get his thumb pad located directly behind the bow grip, he said that it was uncomfortable to do so and it hurt his elbow....

So what was happening was... holding the bow vertical, all the pressure was being applied to the throat of his grip just in the web of his hand, and he was rotating his knuckle up into the shelf area without having any thumb pad contact at all. It was very inconsistent , and he constantly had fletching contact with his hand. If he did adjust his grip where it felt comfortable his bow was canted to well past a  2 o'clock angle and he didn't want to shoot at an extreme cant....

So this took some time to evaluate the problem, and figure out how to go about accommodating it..... Fortunately he was going to the  Baltimore  Classic that year, and I was going to be there myself. So we were able to do some shooting together and I took video of his shooting style.... What I did to get his grip shape correct wasn't building a larger grip to accommodate his large hand, but rotating the lower portion below the throat to match his natural rotation and give him a flat spot his thumb pad would fit into at that angle. I  Also raised the shelf up to keep his knuckle clear from arrow fletching. Then I balanced the limbs pretty much to center with his medium wrist angle and pressure point being very close to center top and bottom..... The palm swell on this riser was small and the over all grip size wasn't any bigger than my stock grips are...But the angles were right and rotated to match his hand.

Dave really freaked out when he first saw the bow... he instantly thought , "This riser is way too small for my big hands."   

But..... I nailed it.... He was very happy with the results....  Said it was hands down the nicest bow he ever shot.  I ended up building extra limbs later so he could have both recurve and hybrid long bow limbs for it too.    Kirk



Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: Kirkll on May 14, 2023, 11:24:34 AM
Sorry.... I didn't address the bow noise issue.... Bow noise can be caused by a number of things. First off the limb design itself can have a big impact. How much string tension or preload at brace has to do with the limb shape, taper rates being used, and where the limbs are bending have an impact too. The type of string used, and getting the proper brace height should take care of it, but not all bow designs are equal... limb balance to pressure point on the riser is a big one too.

If you pick up a bow that you cannot find the right pressure point to apply to smooth it out after trying different brace heights, it's quite possible the the limbs are not properly balanced.

A lot of the old time bowyers refer to adjusting limb length top and bottom to address balancing the limbs to the pressure point applied. But there is very little reference to mapping the limbs to check out WHERE the limbs are bending. Actually.... The self bowyers understand what true bow tillering is all about. But a lot of glass bowyers seem to overlook it, and never check it. 

The common misconception regarding glass limbed bows is that the two limbs shaped the same top and bottom are bending exactly the same. In many cases they are... but in some cases they still have a buzz to them or make more noise because one limb is bending a wee bit differently.....  Can this be adjusted?  Yes... but it has to be done while building the bow and adjusted with slight width profile adjustments, sanding a bit of glass, and often times a bit of limb trapping can be done to move where that working limb is bending a fuzz.... Most bowyers don't mess with this. They bring it in to even tiller for split finger, or  an 1/8" positive and call it 3 under tiller... and call it good. You get your good ones and your bad ones like this...most archers can't tell the difference anyway.


Bottom line is building a quiet bow shootin* light weight arrows under 10 gpp is tuff to do.....    Kirk.
Title: Re: Split, 3-under, fact or opinion
Post by: GCook on May 14, 2023, 12:41:41 PM
I hear ya.  :thumbsup: