61 in. Recurve. Approximately 16 in. working limb. Going from no forward taper to .001 per in.
I am thinking add .016 to the stack for the same weight.
What you all think??
On one hand that sounds reasonable, but on the other that much added stack with no change to taper will make 14 ish lbs on most recurves?
Sorry , no help here , maybe a recurve guy can help ya. If nothin else , Roy will tell ya something... :biglaugh:
All the taper from the center of the riser out to the start of the bending doesn't mean anything.
I think making the stack .008 thicker at the beginning of the working part of the limb would give you the same # bow.
.008 thicker at the start
same thickness at the middle of the working part
and .008 thinner at the end.
Let us know what you do and how it turns out :thumbsup:
Okay I am doing + .008 in the mid part of the working limb my .o16 seemed a bit too much. We will see one limb under pressure. Bout to be out of smoothon
Is that one of your Long thin butt wedges?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Crooked Stic on August 24, 2022, 05:17:30 PM
Okay I am doing + .008 in the mid part of the working limb my .o16 seemed a bit too much. We will see one limb under pressure. Bout to be out of smoothon
Oh crap, my total apologies , Mike!!
I felt like I was forgetting something and I did. Your order by private message!
I guess that's why I like email orders, so it is right there every time I check email til I ship it.
Going in morn and I got the shipping on this one!
Sorry,
kenny
I am kinda thinking along the same lines as Max... Although there might be some kind of curve there... Meaning a little more or less than .008... But that number sounds like a good starting point to me...
Listening and taking it all in boys
JF
Yeah Max straight taper wedge. It's bending some. 11 in.
Got to start some where. The tips were a bit stiffer than I like with parallel limb.
Very interested as well. I am currently building 60" 3 piece with .001 taper. 10-11 " wedge.
Been wondering what a .002or .003 taper would do and what stack to get same weights.
My thoughts were to have the middle of the working portion as the data point to compare.
Like Max stated.
I believe the more taper, the stiffer the early portion will be, and this may be beneficial on longer limbs to keep speed up?
Quote from: Appalachian Hillbilly on August 24, 2022, 10:02:22 PM
Very interested as well. I am currently building 60" 3 piece with .001 taper. 10-11 " wedge.
Been wondering what a .002or .003 taper would do and what stack to get same weights.
My thoughts were to have the middle of the working portion as the data point to compare.
Like Max stated.
I believe the more taper, the stiffer the early portion will be, and this may be beneficial on longer limbs to keep speed up?
I don't build many R/D's but if you go to a .002 or .003 you have to thing about string angle at full draw also and may need a tip wedge also.
Top bow is a Binghams design with .003 taper and parallel width limbs, last 8" are tapered to the nock.
Bottom bow is .005 taper and changes to .002 and has a smaller radius at the recurve, width taper starts at the fades and ends at the nocks.
I want to try my .005/.002 taper and limb width taper also on the Binghams.
Binghams bow is braced to high but that is the only picture I have.
Both bow are similar side by side un braced.
(https://i.imgur.com/tTegdJ2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cxGvtHu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qvays5d.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ar9RdIh.jpg)
I definitely like how the bottom bow is bending compared to the top one... I personally would like to see a hair more bend just before the hooks... Not much just a hair...
Thanks shredd
I like it the way it is :tongue: :tongue:
I am sure it will shoot and draw nice... Like I said, "personally".... I always look at a bow, performance wise... My thoughts are, after you reach peak performance you can stiffen the limb at base, mid, or tip to further refine the bow's shootability if need be but may lose a few fps in doing so...
That stiff last third portion will give you a nice smooth draw... I could be wrong but it is my belief you can suck a few more fps out of her by loosening up the last 4 to 5" before the hook...
Like I said, it is a personal thing...
That Bingham design been around a long time and one high end guys still use it. I have made a few of them early on. Pretty good performers. Still got the form and thinking about pulling it out.
Prolly getting a string on this tomorrow.
Quote from: Crooked Stic on August 25, 2022, 06:57:28 PM
That Bingham design been around a long time and one high end guys still use it. I have made a few of them early on. Pretty good performers. Still got the form and thinking about pulling it out.
Prolly getting a string on this tomorrow.
I hope the # comes out for you.
Yes the binghams design makes it easy on a new bowyer, It has a flat riser layup and parallel width on the limbs, all but the last 8".
Quote from: Appalachian Hillbilly on August 24, 2022, 10:02:22 PM
Very interested as well. I am currently building 60" 3 piece with .001 taper. 10-11 " wedge.
Been wondering what a .002or .003 taper would do and what stack to get same weights.
My thoughts were to have the middle of the working portion as the data point to compare.
Like Max stated.
I believe the more taper, the stiffer the early portion will be, and this may be beneficial on longer limbs to keep speed up?
Unless your draw weight is over 50-55# a recurve limb is going to want to go sideways pretty easily with that much forward taper. Deeper core, narrow hybrid or rd long bow would be fine.
The speed and performance of your limbs is completely dependent on preload string tension at brace that stops mass weight of the forward limb travel clean and transfers the stored energy to the shaft. Your actual limb travel distance plays a big part in this too....
adding forward taper will reduce your limb tip mass weight, but it also changes the whole dynamics of how the limb bends. This is often mitigated by using tip wedges..... You are basically changing the limb design completely. Kirk
Thought I typed this earlier but must not have hit Post.
Anyhow besides .001 FT I changed to .040 Gordon's black glass and it must be way stiffer than BP. 040 clr. glass. The mid working part of the limb is .003 thinner than the prll limb. Shooting for 45 and came out 57. So maybe 54 finished without any extra for weight reduction.
So nothing learned here except black is stiffer.
Dang :knothead:
The speed and performance of your limbs is completely dependent on preload string tension at brace that stops mass weight of the forward limb travel clean and transfers the stored energy to the shaft. Your actual limb travel distance plays a big part in this too....
[/quote]
I only find the string tension part partially true... With some designs string tension and performance run hand in hand only so far... Once you get up to a certain performance level other factors like how the limb is bending (that may include your limb travel you talk about) and delivers that arrow become more crucial than string tension... I have built bows with a lower (percentage wise) string tension that were faster than a bow with higher string tension...
I too thought the more string tension the faster the bow... Until I built a bow with an amazing amount of string tension but was slower than my other bows... It was an eye opener... I could write a couple of chapters on Performance and how ST and DFC's are related to it, but on this site most are uninterested in the science and numbers part of seeking top performance... Matter of fact in other bow making groups and sites I have found only one person that has an accurate DFC and is not sure how to use it or understand it... And no one wants to know either... :dunno: I guess because it is homework and no one likes to do their homework... :laughing:
For best performance I am a firm believer that everything has to be taken into account... There is no magic bullet like string tension and DFC's... They are great methods and tools and I definitely believe in using them but they only get you about 80 to 90% there... The rest is finding the balance of all of the above... The last 10 or 20% is about experimenting... Tweaking the limbs ever so slightly this way and that... You will find it will take you away from the best numbers in ST and DFC's (or what you thought were the best numbers) but your performance will go up... This may be a bad analogy but compare it to timing on a car... On paper and in your mind TDC is the way to go... All the math and the numbers say so and it makes total sense but the right thing to do is set your timing a number of degrees before TDC... An uneducated person would only find this out by trial and error and fooling with the timing... So use string tension and DFC's to find the TDC and from there tweak your timing for best performance... :goldtooth:
But what do I know... There may be designs out there that string tension and performance run hand in hand all the way to peak performance... There is so much out there and I feel that I only scratched the surface... But this is the experience that I have had with building bows and chasing top performance and I feel you may find this to be true with most bows...
Good Info. guy's
I'm going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:
"We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow ... 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path."
Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.
Quote from: onetone on August 26, 2022, 11:24:38 PM
I'm going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:
"We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow ... 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path."
Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.
May or may not translate for glass bows? I don't know :dunno:
The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back. Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.
Quote from: Crooked Stic on August 27, 2022, 07:44:10 AM
The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back. Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.
Pretty much every Topic with this group :biglaugh:
Quote from: Mad Max on August 27, 2022, 07:27:59 AM
Quote from: onetone on August 26, 2022, 11:24:38 PM
I'm going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:
"We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow ... 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path."
Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.
May or may not translate for glass bows? I don't know :dunno:
Or for typical contemporary design.
Stic - sorry for drifting off topic. Will try to improve my aim! :archer2:
Your aim is fine. Me venting.
Unless your into the super curves and such (ever seen them in slow motion after the shot) most would rather have a bow with nice looking wood with good manners and quite. Most of them out there plenty fast enough to do whatever you want.
True enough!
No matter what one does or builds there is always somebody wanting to "race" :biglaugh:
Quote from: Crooked Stic on August 27, 2022, 07:44:10 AM
The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back. Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.
No the question went to what would he gain by going to an .002 to .003 taper....
The short answer is a torsionally unstable bow.
There are a lot of archers that say speed doesn't matter, but higher performance flatter trajectory will always be appreciated by many archers. Especially when they can shoot lighter draw weights and still stay in the game. You can have both good manners and higher performance. Actually..... the two go hand in hand if things are balanced out right. And.... With enough experience you can creat some beautiful works of art that will out live you by many years..... Kirk
Quote from: Appalachian Hillbilly on August 24, 2022, 10:02:22 PM
Very interested as well. I am currently building 60" 3 piece with .001 taper. 10-11 " wedge.
Been wondering what a .002or .003 taper would do and what stack to get same weights.
My thoughts were to have the middle of the working portion as the data point to compare.
Like Max stated.
I believe the more taper, the stiffer the early portion will be, and this may be beneficial on longer limbs to keep speed up?
Don't see nothing here about what the gain would be only wanting (like me) stack change for same weight.
Done here.
Quote from: Crooked Stic on August 26, 2022, 05:05:51 PM
Thought I typed this earlier but must not have hit Post.
Anyhow besides .001 FT I changed to .040 Gordon's black glass and it must be way stiffer than BP. 040 clr. glass. The mid working part of the limb is .003 thinner than the prll limb. Shooting for 45 and came out 57. So maybe 54 finished without any extra for weight reduction.
So nothing learned here except black is stiffer.
BP glass is a lot different than Gordon's glass. No comparison IMO. But with that being said, each run of Gordon's glass can vary a bit too. Best to buy in largest quantities you can, and do not mix it with a different batch.
I find if I purchase 40 -60 sticks of Gordon's at a time, and use it as it comes off the stack it's shipped to me, it's more consistent. Kirk
Quote from: Shredd on August 26, 2022, 06:41:03 PM
The speed and performance of your limbs is completely dependent on preload string tension at brace that stops mass weight of the forward limb travel clean and transfers the stored energy to the shaft. Your actual limb travel distance plays a big part in this too....
I only find the string tension part partially true... With some designs string tension and performance run hand in hand only so far... Once you get up to a certain performance level other factors like how the limb is bending (that may include your limb travel you talk about) and delivers that arrow become more crucial than string tension... I have built bows with a lower (percentage wise) string tension that were faster than a bow with higher string tension...
I too thought the more string tension the faster the bow... Until I built a bow with an amazing amount of string tension but was slower than my other bows... It was an eye opener... I could write a couple of chapters on Performance and how ST and DFC's are related to it, but on this site most are uninterested in the science and numbers part of seeking top performance... Matter of fact in other bow making groups and sites I have found only one person that has an accurate DFC and is not sure how to use it or understand it... And no one wants to know either... :dunno: I guess because it is homework and no one likes to do their homework... :laughing:[/quote]
I've read this post of yours several times trying honestly to comprehend your analogy of performance and how string tension and DFC charts are related to it.
A DFC chart is just a chart showing pounds per inch through the course of the draw. Just changing the length of a string on a bow changes both the string tension and the DFC chart a certain amount.
I've never seen a bow with lower string tension and preload that exceeded performance levels of higher preload bows using a 10 gpp @ 28-30" draw base for testing. The only way I could see this happening is in a heavy draw weight D shape long bow with low ST using extremely heavy shafts like a 60@28" shooting a 1200 grain shaft. The mass arrow weight and momentum build up with the time on the string in a longer forward limb travel mitigates the string tension at brace..... this same bow would not do as well with lighter arrows.
But you are absolutely right about most guys are not much interested in spending time with the charts and numbers parts of bow building. They would rather hone their craftsmanship skills and produce some nice finished products. Others like yourself are obsessed with the testing and documentation more so than producing a finished product. I can appreciate that too. Mad scientist mode is fun from time to time....
Id love to see a photo gallery of your finished products sometime Shredd. Maybe you could post a few reviews you have received from happy customers too. I'd especially like to see this bow design that has higher performance with lower pre load and the specs, in all its glory. Kirk
There is a lot of math equations on a DFC on a Excel type spread sheet.
And Shredd knows how to use it.
That is all I can say :nono:
He did his home work and built many bows. :thumbsup:
He doesn't like to ring his own bell so I will do it for him.
Not to bad for a guy working in a open shed
https://www.thetradlab.com/recurves
Just saying
QuoteHe did his home work and built many bows. :thumbsup:
I'd love to see the photo gallery and customer reviews of these bows sometime. Talk of building bows, and seeing the finished product are two different things.
All i see is test results and charts on other bowyers products on that website.
Show me the money! :biglaugh:
Click on the link, bottom of the page , Reddbow
Thanks, Max... Appreciate it... As you can see I never speak in absolutes that would be wrong... I always say, this is what I have found with the bows that I have made or tested... Unless you are absolutely sure about something and have thoroughly tested every design out there you just don't know... To say one size fits all is a huge statement... I am here to keep the story straight... Just for the fact that I have one bow design that has a higher ST by 3 to 4 percent than an another bow design and the one with the lower ST is about 4 fps faster means that a higher ST is not directly related to a faster bow... As for other comments I will ignore those... If anyone would like to see my bows just pm me and I will send you my FB page and website...
I'm not gonna get into a tug a war battle with you... Those days are over... I said my peace and I'm done here... In the future if I hear what I think is false info I am gonna call them on it... The boys can hear both sides and decide which path to take... At least they get to hear from the other side of the coin and not just one view... And as far as you disrespecting my opinion I am ok with that now...
I'm going to just leave this alone Shredd.... You and I have butted heads before in a different arena and I'm going to stand down.
After looking at your Reddbow website and looking closely at your work, It's quite obvious you do not have as much experience as I thought you did building bows. I sincerely apologize for assuming you were more advanced than simple long bow design. Once you get into recurve designs and various configurations of static tip vs working recurves, you are going to find it's a whole different ball game.
To the rest of the bowyers here. I apologize for getting my hackle up... it was poor form. Kirk
On a different note..... Shredd... I have a shooting machine design that you may be interested in for your testing venture.
I worked out the design with an engineer taking a hooter shooter and incorporating a tension meter , an integrated measuring device for exact draw length, and an interface software with excell to automatically upload the full DFC chart as the bow is being drawn, then uploads the speed from the chrono and inserts the bottom line.
It's a pretty cool design.... Runs about 2K to build. Kirk
I favor dialog and discussion. I think I have learned things from most of the people on this forum. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Kirkll on August 29, 2022, 10:59:28 AM
After looking at your Reddbow website and looking closely at your work, It's quite obvious you do not have as much experience as I thought you did building bows. I sincerely apologize for assuming you were more advanced than simple long bow design. Kirk
This was very uncalled for.
He spent alot of time working on limb design and did not care about making a fancy looking Riser and burned himself out on building bows last year.
You should keep SOME of your options to yourself. Just saying
It use to be a guy could ask a question on here and get a bunch of info. A lot of different options to try. Now everyone wants to argue. People are going to stop asking questions and that's a shame, there's a wealth of info here. I haven't been on here much because I felt things were changing and getting toxic like most other sites. Mike I hope your getting your design perfected.
Quote from: 4 point on August 29, 2022, 11:49:35 AM
It use to be a guy could ask a question on here and get a bunch of info. A lot of different options to try. Now everyone wants to argue. People are going to stop asking questions and that's a shame, there's a wealth of info here. I haven't been on here much because I felt things were changing and getting toxic like most other sites. Mike I hope your getting your design perfected.
I stay away from confrontation a lot but had to this time.
Sorry if I offended anyone else.
Max, definitely didn't direct that at you. I have your same feelings. There's no need for rudeness.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Ditto the above! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Mad Max on August 29, 2022, 11:36:09 AM
Quote from: Kirkll on August 29, 2022, 10:59:28 AM
After looking at your Reddbow website and looking closely at your work, It's quite obvious you do not have as much experience as I thought you did building bows. I sincerely apologize for assuming you were more advanced than simple long bow design. Kirk
This was very uncalled for.
He spent alot of time working on limb design and did not care about making a fancy looking Riser and burned himself out on building bows last year.
You should keep SOME of your options to yourself. Just saying
I'm done here Max.... I sent you a PM. I apologize to all for voicing my opinion. Kirk
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Kirk it never fails that you continue to do it. :deadhorse: too much pride get you nowhere.
Kirk, you need to knock off your ignorance.
It's an on going problem with you.
Your bad reputation from other website forums follows you everywhere.
I think that was a bit harsh with the name calling.......But.... i'll just quit posting in the bowyers gallery completely. if anyone wants to contact me, i'll check my pms. Kirk
No need to quit posting in here, just be more respectful.
That means everyone has a right to voice their opinion on here... If someone disagrees with you it should be discussed in a gentlemanly manner not resorting to bullying and berating the other person... If you are firm in your beliefs and you are correct you will come out on top and everyone will learn from the discussion and it will be a pleasant experience... I have told tons of people that you were my mentor... I learned a lot from you and put up with your cocky BS and bullying over the years... I had to leave the other site because of your disrespect... All along I have been doing some rigorous experimenting and testing and my findings don't align up with some of yours... And because of this now the student has in some way has become the teacher... I think this is what bothers you and you can't stand being challenged or worst of all admit that you are wrong... Well suck it up my friend because if you state something that I feel is misinformation I feel it is my duty to challenge you to keep the info correct for the boys on the forum... You have a lot to offer and can express your thoughts way better than I can in words... I hope you simmer down and can start respecting other people's opinions... ** I was gonna write this in a pm but I feel that this is maybe something that everyone should see...
I agree
Everyone's findings on the way they build bows and how there bows work may or may not be the same as you do, but it works for them.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Well said Shredd. I too have learned from Kirk and appreciate how generous he is with what he has worked out in his years as a bowyer. Still, I can do without the demeaning and put-downs, as they sully his otherwise helpful disposition and detract from the good cheer of this forum. I hope he will get off that high horse and continue to post here.
Ok this thread is locked.
Now let's all just get along together as friends.