Trad Gang

As some of you know, I've been "off the grid" for a month...
No cell phone, or land line. No internet. I had the VCR/DVD hooked up to the TV for a little "entertainment".

I was watching the Fred Bear DVD collection that I got a couple years ago from 3Rivers.
Ever since I was a kid, Fred Bear has been my childhood hero. I watched him on "Curt Gowdy's American Sportsman". I still remember sitting in front of the TV, I think I was about 7-8 years old...
Watching these DVDs brought back lots of memories.... and also got me thinking....

Watching Fred on his hunting trips, as they were unloading their gear, one of the things was a couple boxes of new Bear arrows. Fred would take the new arrows out, touch up the Razorheads with a file, then insert a new razorblade bleeder blade. and put them in his bow quiver.  Then, go hunting.

Now, I find it hard to believe, that each shaft was "tuned" and "bare shaft tested, etc.
Now bowhunters of that era, shot Field Archery courses, with at least one 80yd target.
Many of us today figure a 40yd target on a 3D course, a LONG shot!! (myself included)
My point being, Bowhunters decades ago, PRACTICED untill they became proficient.
(Not that we don't today, WE DO!! At least any ethical bowhunter does)

My point being... They all chose to pick up an "inferior" tool, to go hunting with. In spite of it's limitations.
If their arrows were a little stiff, and hit left, they held right. Heavy? hold higher....
Quite a bit of game was killed with "miss-matched" equipment....

I'm old. I remember buying a dozen wood hunting arrows in a box, at Montgomery Wards.
They were marked with length and spine. How close were they...??  :dunno:
I remember buying single field tipped arrows from a box of 100. They were marked, "For bows up to 40#"
(many times, I'd cut the field points off, and put broadheads on for hunting arrows)

My point being, Years ago, people picked up a bow and arrows, and PRACTICED untill they got good!! :archer2:

These days, it seems (to me) that folks are looking for a "quick way" to get good.
That if everything is perfectly matched and tuned. they should be able to hit the target every time.
If they don't???? Well, they should have a perfect group "somewhere" to help them figure out why not??
Maybe this comes from the compound bows?? Keep fiddling and adjusting, untill you get it right... :banghead:

Just one old farts observations... FRIENDLY debate PLEASE!!!!! :readit:
My "Riddle me This" thread went off the rails BAD, and I had the moderators lock it up.....

I agree loud and clear, my journey into traditional hunting took me from a simple setup to the latest and greatest bows, arrows, broadheads etc. I'm happy to say that I rely more on my selfbows now because besides knowing the limitations and shooting a super performing rig, my shooting has improved simply because I am more relaxed. Yes my bow doesn't sizzle an arrow, yes my arrows aren't made to blast through cinder block, yes I needed to reduce my effective range a bit, but the simple enjoyment of shooting a bow is stronger than ever. Yes I agree there is overthinking and overstriding in our sport pushed forward by our pursuit of better and best. Funny thing is, we might have already been there and back already.

Watched Fred on American sportsmen also...Good times those were ...On the arrows...Well, some of those old wood arrows Fred (and others)were loosing in some of those videos were wood of a different color ....glass  to be more direct  ;)

I would also go on a limb and say Fred likely took off the line what matched his rig from shooting a lot before his adventure. Spectulation as I wasn't there either  :dunno:

Love those movies........

Very true!!! Fred did shoot glass arrows, and even aluminum!!
I shot glass arrows years ago too. What spine they were? I have no idea... :dunno:
I bought them because of the interchangeable points....

Or perhaps, Fred had confidence in his manufacturing?? If the spine said 60-65#, that's what they were!!
Btw, another interesting part of the set shows the making of the Kodiak Magnum.
It was amazing to see the exacting standards and tolerances the machinery built these bows to, and the hand finishing that completed them!!

I'm not gonna lie.  I'm an over thinker.
However I think too many of you over romanticize the infallibility of guys like Bear and Hill.  They missed and wounded animals too.  Too many close associates and crew people have arrested to it  and not that it matters except that they did the best with what they had and what they knew. 
However that doesn't mean if you took a guy like Ishi, gave him a modern r&d longbow and matched arrows, broadheads and he learned to shoot it he wouldn't become a more lethal hunter and choose that over what he had access to.
You plink at the gun range and that cheap wolfe ammo out of that low end AR shooting a 6" group out of the factory sights is adequate to the plinker.
The hunter mounts a halfway decent scope and shoots some soft bullets and shoots a 3" group and thinks he good to go.
A sniper puts in a tricked out trigger, upgrades the barrel and scope, reloads until he's driving 3/8ths inch groups and still practices so he knows every range and wind adjustment.

Some of us want to know that when we go to a shoot we are least know we look like we've prepared and are knowledgeable about our discipline even if we aren't the best shooter out there. 
When we hit the woods we want to have worked out any imperfection in our equipment and as many of our personal ones so that animal gets as clean a kill as we can. 
And after all that we still come up short sometimes. 

So yeah, I may over think it.   I'm sure I over spend, over practice and over worry.  But, it works for me.  Most of the time.

Well said, Gary!!! :clapper:

I shot split sapling bows and tomato stick arrows that my Grandpa made me as a kid.
I got my first real bow, a fiberglass Red Bear when I was 5 years old. I shot box arrows as much as I could afford.
About 12, my uncle gave me a 40# glass Ben Pearson recurve. Stalked acrossed a fresh mown hay field and killed a woodchuck at about 25 yards.
In 1976, at 16, I bought a Bear Alaskan recurve, from a neighbor's yard sale. That fall, I bought my first dozen matched hunting arrows. They were a beautiful set of Bear arrows. Brown painted shafts with blue cresting.
Helical fletched with parabolic feathers, 2 red hens and a white cock feather, white nocks, tipped with Razorheads.

I didn't dare shoot them LOL, I kept practicing with my big box field tip arrows.
I killed my first deer that year. A beautiful young Doe. My Dad and uncle, were driving a swail on his farm. I was standing next to a big dead tree on the edge, next to a field. About 10 deer ran past me through the swail, but the young doe ran out into the field. She stopped, looking around for the other deer she was with.
I drew and released.... Watching the arrow fly through the air, and into her ribs.
She ran acrossed the field toward a woodlot. She dropped in sight. Luck??? You betcha!!!

But it started a fire.... :archer:

Products have evolved and been refined, computer programs for spine have been developed, people know more than back then possibly and the ability to arrive at a workable solution is easier, maybe. But all of this improvement can make one picky and then maybe over thinking comes into play, but does it really matter how you get there? The bow and arrow have been effective for centuries if not millennia, and the end result has not changed. It's how you get there that may or may not be different.

It's often said that you can't judge the past by the standards of the present. I think accuracy expectations of the past were effected by not only the equipment of the time; but also the known methods of tuning of the era. It's well documented that Howard Hill would shoot a new batch of arrows at a 60 yard target and discard those that missed. That was his tuning method.

In short, having shot a bow during some of the OP referenced time period, I think a 'good' tune often was just a mere step away from 'good enough'. Stated more simply, you just did the best you could.... with what you had. It sure helped that you could shoot a wood arrow in a 20 pound spine range and they still shot reasonably well. I found out later, I couldn't duplicate that same forgiveness with aluminum.

Everyone follows the traditional journey in a way that gives them joy and satisfaction. I want the best tuned arrow as determined by the best tuning methods not as short cut to proficiency; but rather to be the best ethical and humane hunter that I can be.

As far as what Fred Bear did, we know Fred was the ultimate promoter. We don't know that the arrows taken out of a new arrow box was what he really used or...... was just something for the camera to sell his product. I saw something similar in almost all his video's.

I agree but offer another consideration. It's easy to "wing it" as in mentally adjusting when using instinctive or some form of as in split vision. Very different when using gap, walking etc.  I bet Fred didn't gap shoot? I could be wrong but a little off is easily compensated for with instinctive and that might be some of it. Either way we've chosen a simpler and imo better tool for the job. Im all for bettering form in order to speed our ability to be consistent but overthinking/super analyzing/stressing about stuff is best left to wheel guys let's just go hunting.

I'm not one to tinker with equipment but I do tune the best I can using bareshaft etc.and work hard to make my equipment quiet, and efficient . Back in the early 70's I also killed quite a few animals with badly matched equipment. I know the early days were glamorized but there's a lot of stories of bad hits and shooting long distances, I think they relied on big fletching as did I, to help with arrow flight, there wasn't any internet, YouTube or DVD's or much printed material on tuning or anything for the average new hunter to help , if you didn't have a competent mentor you were on your own to figure it out. I know I had no idea about  matching equipment but managed to kill a few and to be honest I lost a few as well, that losing them due to poor hits or penetration, drove me to doing it better so I searched out a mentor.
   I know some folks really take it to the next level but as far as I'm concerned I don't think I'm over thinking things . I'm a big fan of keeping things simple and if I find something that works, I stick with it, regardless of the newest and best broadhead , bow or arrow shaft .

What's one person's overthinking may be another person's favorite way of passing the time.  Most of us aren't making any money doing this, and those that are aren't making a whole lot.  Isn't the bottom line just to shoot the bow in the way that brings you the most enjoyment?  Face it, we're so far outside of mainstream American culture that we might as well be catfish noodlers, and most of us like it that way.  There's a lot more things that we have in common with each other in our remote little corner of the universe than there are dividing us, if we choose to look for them.

All these fine comments, make me smile!!! :bigsmyl:

This is what I was hoping for, Traditional Archery is a journey... Enjoy the ride!!! :archer:
How we get there, is how we get there. We are all individuals. We do what works for US!!
All of us here, try to pass along our knowledge, to the newcomers.

But, we must remember...  What works for US, may not work for them... We are all individuals.
They must also understand, that just because we suggest something, doesn't mean that they HAVE to do it!!
Try it... If it works, GREAT!! If not, ask questions. Or, try something different?? 

Having watched my boys grow up shooting, it amazes me what the human body can do!!
Give a kid a bow, and arrows, show him a target, and let them shoot......
You will be suprized how good they get in a couple days. Then a week, months...
They know nothing about tuning, or form, they just shoot, instinctively. Like throwing a rock, or a ball.

Now... What if we could get adults to do that?? Don't think... Just shoot!! :archer2:

It started as a 'simple stick and string and simple methods, used for hunting and self-defense' kind of mindset.  Today it's pretty much anything that technology and marketing can produce and sell under the guise of the former. 

Of course we're overthinking it.   

It depends, I guess, on what you are or aren't willing to accept.
If you are shooting a whitetail broadside at 12 yards, pretty much any arrow is gonna drill it provided you have a surgically sharp, heavy enough broadhead coming off a bow of legal hunting weight or better. And if you can't hit that, you really need more practice. Did Ishi weight match arrows and points? Not likely.
Taking longer shots at 3D matches or target shooting tournaments requires more finesse and more attention to detail if you want to hit...and win...prizes.
Nothing wrong with being the best you can and tuning both bow and arrows to fly as straight and accurate as possible. But then, this IS trad. Sure, there are more accurate bows, but we won't go there...

One of the things that I personally find troubling...

We talk a lot about form. Form is very important!! Without good, consistent form, you will not be a good shooter.
BUT, one of the things I personally think is way more important, is your release.
Without a solid anchor point, and a good clean smooth release, you will not be a consistent shooter.

We have many newcomers here that have crossed over, from the compound crowd.
We welcome them all, and we all try and be as helpful as we can!! But, we must remember, it's apples & oranges.
They draw the bow, put the pin on target, and hit the release trigger. This is what they're used to.

Most of them are used to tinkering with their bows, and they understand tuning.
We give them advice, on setting up and tuning traditional equipment.
But we must remember, without a good, clean, smooth release.....
You will never be a consistent enough shot, to tune anything!!!

Just one old woochucker's ponderings

I would argue that consistency overrules any one form aspect. And I will also state that each person's form is dictated or should be dictated by long days of practice and experimentation and not give to idol worship. I know guys who can do the greatest Fred Bear imitation and can't hit the side of a she shed.

I'm a cross over archer.  I think many of you who have never been in the discipline of modern equipment don't understand the similarities.  Solid form, repeatable anchor point, follow through, smooth trigger control.  Without all of that you will not be a great shot.
The two biggest differences are the finger release and how much you are holding at full draw.  No one can match the smoothness of release of a mechanical release.  However I would put money on the great traditional shooters challenging even some of the great compound shooters.  Especially at unknown ranges.  And especially in hunting scenarios.

Mechanically simple tools are often not simple to  use well.

Quote from: woodchucker on August 03, 2022, 06:33:36 PM
BUT, one of the things I personally think is way more important, is your release.
Without a solid anchor point, and a good clean smooth release, you will not be a consistent shooter.

We have many newcomers here that have crossed over, from the compound crowd.

Most of them are used to tinkering with their bows, and they understand tuning.
We give them advice, on setting up and tuning traditional equipment.
But we must remember, without a good, clean, smooth release.....
You will never be a consistent enough shot, to tune anything!!!

Very true.  We are our own worst enemy in this regard, even if we have never shot a compound bow in our lives.  In modern archery training, the release is not actually considered to be a separate step in the shot process.  This is on purpose, because the assumption is that if the shot is set up correctly, release will happen during expansion, without any help from us.

I can understand this thought process, because any "help" we try to give the release will ruin the shot.  However, they tell us in instructor training to never make any negative comments, so all the ways you can f**k up the release are just glossed over.  I don't know how to warn people away from all the negative inputs you can make to the release with discussing them.  I discuss them with myself whenever I have a bad release.  If I make a little backward movement with my shoulder at the moment of release, and push the arrow off target, I have to be able to recognize that I did that and not do it the next time.  Same thing in the other direction: if I ceeep the tiniest little bit at the moment of release, I will throw my shot off in the other direction.  I have to be aware of when I do these things, and how to correct them.

And yet, while I'm making these release errors, the shot process remains unchanged:  I come to full draw, anchor, expand, and hold through the conclusion of the shot, whether I push, creep, pluck, or hold my back tension without any "help" through my release.

I had to teach myself these things.  Rick Welch's advice to "hold until the shot goes off," and USA Archery's advice that the release will happen automatically during expansion are correct.  They just don't teach you that you may think you're doing these things correctly when you're really not.

Having been shooting trad bows for several decades, I have often thought that we, as a group, do overthink things. Just an example..... when I read of guys going through all sort of steps and great pains in order to get their latest single beveled sharpened to have the most ultimate edge..... when, we all know that a good file and a denim pant leg or leather strip and a little practice can have about any head hair popping sharp in short order.
I also totally understand that some folks are just geared to overthink things. And we should be glad for them. They are what pushes things forward.

Never had that experience with a file.  Now give me a good Arkansas stone and I'm gtg.

Yes, most of us tend to overthink, and many don't. I don't. While many are perfectionists to the point of no output, most of us could stand being a bit more detail oriented. I am one who believes that if I can keep my shots in the heart/lung area at my hunting range things are peachy. I do practice, but, quite frankly, I no longer think I am physically able to become a truly good archer.

As for Fred Bear "Hunting out of the box", it may have been a publicity stunt. Believe me, if I owned Fred Bear Archery, I would have arrows made and tested to my specs, then packaged in the box. It is a subtle but effective ploy to highlight the quality of my product.

How we prepare for archery and hunting is one way I feel most people tend to over think. For example, some guys worry over a 5 grain variance in weight being a major issue. They sometimes weigh individual feathers to get them to the same weight. Generally, people don't have clean enough form that minute weight variations make a measurable difference. But, you can't blame them for trying. It is always better to be over prepared than under prepared. Me, I would be happy with a clean release. I agree with McDave and some of the others regarding the necessity of a good release.

As my Tae Kwon Do master used to remind us at every class we need to practice, practice, practice!

Quote from: Stringwacker on August 03, 2022, 07:59:38 AM
It's well documented that Howard Hill would shoot a new batch of arrows at a 60 yard target and discard those that missed. That was his tuning method.

I was at a shoot one day and this dude walked up to the "lost arrow" bin grabbed a fistful of arrows and went out and shot them on a practice target a few times.  He discarded the ones that didn't fly well and kept three arrows that by outward appearance were mismatched according to length, spine, diameter, fletching, etc. He turned out to be a friend of mine's buddy and I ended up shooting a round with them on the fun range.  Shooting those arrows, with what I learned was a borrowed bow, he proceeded to spank the targets one after another.  But... he was a shooter.  He had consistent form and release.

Yes, we overthink things.  That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything possible to insure the effectiveness of our equipment and that includes practice and some level of tuning. 

I believe it is just human nature, to try and "build a better mouse trap"
This has been the success of human evolution for centuries...

Archery has evolved as well, up to and including the compound bow.
In the past few decades, there has been a gaining movement backwards... Back to our roots. :archer:

This is a good thing!! As we should always remember where we came from...
Now, I am FAR from what folks would call an "instructor"... But, I have taught many people how to shoot.
I find a bow of mine they can comfortably draw and hold. I help them find a comfortable and consistent anchor point. I encourage most to start shooting 3under for two reasons, 1 it gets the arrow up under their eye, 2 it avoids them pinching the nock and the arrow coming off the shelf. 

Then we shoot... A simple paper plate, and short (5-10yds) range.
This is where I explain and work on their release.  I explain that you want to relax your string hand, and allow the string to just slip from you fingers. My instructions are simple....
Look at the plate... Draw back to your anchor point.... Look at the plate.... Relax your string hand and let the string slip from your fingers. Suprisingly, "follow through" seems to come naturally when first getting started!!
I think they are so focused on the plate, they forget to do anything else?? :dunno:
After an hour or so of slow, one arrow at a time practice, most usually seem to have it down.
Then, I send them home with the bow, and a few arrows..... :archer:

The next time, I put a small "dot" on the paper plate. Same as before only...
Look at the dot... Draw back to your anchor point... Look at the dot... Relax your string hand and let it slip.....
Again, after about an hour, most have all of their arrows in the paper plate.
Practice, Practice, Practice.... FIRST, learn HOW to shoot.
Then you can learn how to be a better shooter...  :archer2:

I like your instruction approach Woodchucker but have just one suggested improvement.  Put that 'dot' on the very middle of the plate the first time you show them the plate.  The little dot may well be THE most important tool of all for learning to develop 'good instinctive'.  Might as well start them off on the right foot.   :thumbsup:

Has anybody here said exactly what it means to "overthink"? Are we saying that tuning is overthinking?

I shoot mostly aluminum arrows and I "bare shaft tune". In fact I practice shooting with bare shafts. I do so because a poorly executed shot can send a bare shaft off course just as it can a broadhead tipped arrow. When my bare shafts land with my fletched field tipped arrows my shooting is OK. By the same token a badly mismatched arrow can hit the target just fine until you hang a broadhead on it and then all bets are off.

Once in one of these threads I took a Root 15# bow and shot some 2117 arrows at 12 or 15 yards and posted the pictures. Short range, fletched and sporting field points just about anything will work.

For me, the bare shafting is a way to do less shooting with broadheads and still get good broadhead results. It's getting close to the time of year where I'll start shooting broadheads instead of bare shafts just to make sure.

I don't worry much about a couple of grains or thousandths of an inch one way or the other.

mgf, personally I often refer to overthinking as "mountain climbing over the mole hill". We often take a minor issue and blow it out of proportion when concentrating on another aspect of the game would be far more beneficial. Granted, it is sometimes hard to prioritize appropriately. However, what one man feels is overthinking may be crucial to another, so it really is up to the individual to make the determination. Unfortunately, though, some use it as a polite means of telling somebody that they don't know what they are talking about.

Tony,
The reason I don't introduce the dot first, is that I want them to focus on their anchor, and release.
I want them to learn to hit, what they are looking at... (The plate)

As soon as you introduce the dot, they start trying to aim, and everything goes out the window :banghead:
All things in time....

Chuck, I get the anchor and release thing but I also believe that when it comes to 'overthinking' their instinctive shooting most people significantly overthink (or at least overemphasize) their form components too early in the process, at the expense of adopting a simplified sight picture. 

As critical as tuned repeatable form is, in my experience (a long time) it best comes AFTER learning the hows of acquiring and focusing on the spot.  IMO all else is secondary...complete focus on where you want the arrow to go is the single most important factor in effective instinctive shooting.  And without a spot on that plate the learning process becomes a whole lot harder to do, lol. 

I suppose that's why form is never the same for everyone.  Form is essentially just an individual's learned body response to making the #1 objective (target acquisition) easier to engrain.  We shouldn't make our body overthink what it wants to do naturally, no more than we should try to aim our forks or sight down our arms on a basketball court.     

Well see I guess that's why it's hard for one person to decide whether or not somebody else is over thinking or "miss thinking" because ideas on how to shoot vary an awful lot.

What's being talked about here doesn't match anything the big names in the business are teaching.

The analogy I would like to make between form and focusing on the spot is like the difference between a building and a business.  The foundation and structure of the building (or perhaps a website in today's virtual world) is analogous to form, while what goes on inside that building once it is built is analogous to focusing on the spot and releasing the arrow. I don't think it's useful to emphasize the importance of one of these aspects over the other.

By teaching a person good form, I can get him to where he can hit within a 10" circle at 20 yards 19 out of 20 times, without worrying overly much about aiming or focusing on the spot.  This might not sound like much, but it is better than the majority of the people I shoot with can do consistently.  They may shoot better than that a lot of the time, but they are also looking for arrows behind the target on a regular basis.  However, while learning good form will give you the consistency you want, it won't give you the accuracy you want.

Form, combined with focusing on the spot and releasing the arrow correctly, whether instinctively or using a reference aiming system, is what allows a shooter to reach his true potential, which are consistent 6" groups at 20 yards for most people and 3" or smaller groups at 20 yards for some.  Solely focusing on the spot and releasing correctly might give you the accuracy you want, but it won't give you the consistency you want.

'Overthinking it' often includes the tendency to make finding one's shooting potential the be-all/end-all of learning to shoot.  Beginners who might not know one end of a bow from the other let alone aspire to drill the same hole repeatedly arrow after arrow will benefit from keeping their learning curve as simple as possible.  One starts with developing focus on the mark and builds in steps from there, not the other way around.  The rest of it (a myriad of general form components that can change with the teaching source) can be made to seem like long do's and don't checklists are necessary... which isn't true and is  exactly what a beginner does NOT need in their first days of bow and arrow education. 

Complicated form mechanics (and for beginners complicated can be almost any detail-based instruction) can be an effective recipe for bad results, or worse yet for becoming bored or frustrated with basic simple/instinctive archery concepts.  In some venues even shooting an arrow is reserved for much later, well after the basics are learned/engrained.  Better to take things slow, make it fun and introduce a simple foundation (knowledge before mechanics) before coaching theoretically engineered form principles that only might work for that particular individual.  We don't need to start target panic mania on the very first day now do we?  That can be done later if desired.

Of course, I'm speaking to simple instinctive-type 'normal dude' archery here, not career-oriented competitive target archery.  If the latter is what one truly seeks then never mind keeping it simple, the competitive thing is a whole different ball game and one best researched and practiced under the tutelage of a career experienced expert instructor trained in the ways of precision methods and use of high-end equipment.  But I'm not sure that's a particularly good fit for most of us.  Especially for those not wanting to overthink it. 

Form is the fundamentals.  Everyone should strive to have the correct form(proper alignment) as it negates a myriad of accuracy issues. And, it's not complicated to achieve. The closer one gets to a literal shooting machine the more consistently accurate one becomes.

I want to be as accurate as I can possibly be no mater if paper or fur.  Not sure why anyone would settle for less.

Paralysis by analysis definitely exists,  and I see more of that in people worrying about FOC than working on their shooting ability.

McDave and Terry X2.  It's very easy for a new shooter to develop poor form habits that may be difficult to unlearn later on or worse, lead to a needless injury.  As McDave pointed out, proper mechanics learned early on will get the new archer to a level of accuracy in and of itself and those mechanics will serve that person well regardless of their chosen shooting style down the road.  I find that people are much more likely to return for more if they experience a level of success instead of frustration--- form basics go a long way toward this end.

I find that people are much more likely to have fun with archery if they aren't taught to approach it as if they are heading to the Olympics next month.  Keeping it simple goes well with simple sticks and strings.

TSP, I don't teach people about the Olympics.  Your comment sounds like you are grasping at straws to make your point. Everyone I have help stated more to the experience as "kid in a candy store" than "when are the Olympics?"

There is no real shortcuts in being proficient shooting the bow, start with basic form (alignment) anchor and go from there, practice that a bit drawing the bow and letting down without an arrow before attempting to loose an arrow it helps getting comfortable with the bow and then after shoot some arrows at close range instead of looking for lost arrows. I see it all the time at my public forest preserve range, new people show up with bows strung backwards and all sorts of misconceptions on shooting the bow, but after a few basic lessons and a few well shot arrows and I mean arrows that just feel good coming off the bow they start to have fun and the ones who want to keep shooting are the ones who usually keep at it. As far as tuning, a basic well matched set of arrows is all you need and that obviously means different things to different people, but even a matched set of arrows is not gonna help if you are uncomfortable and have no idea how to shoot them. JMHO

I wish somebody would have shown me what proper alignment was and how to get there when I first started.

It would have saved me years of struggle and frustration. It's not that hard but you don't know what you don't know when you start.

People mention fun.  And I guess for new shooters, like my grandkids, just dropping the string is fun.  For a while.  Soon they want to hit the target like Pop.  Soon they want their arrows to stick in the 3D animal just like Pop.  They soon want to do more than just drop a string. 
Teaching them better form helps them hit what they are shooting at.  Which is inherently more fun.  The more fun, the more they are willing to work, stay at it.
I don't think you can separate those things.  Even the word fundamentals starts with the word fun.

Well said, Gary!!! :clapper:

We also need to remember.... It's a learning process!! Baby steps... Practice, Practice, Practice!!

In our world today, many are looking for instant gratification.
They expect to learn this, and get "good" overnight. Such is not the case here....

Every year, I see posts from new members reluctant to hang up their compounds, and commit to traditional equipment. Or, they end up going back to them. I was lucky enough to have started with traditional bows.
My Grandpa made them for me from split saplings when I was 3-4 years old.
I did shoot compounds for about 4-5 years, in the late 80's. After buying a new bow every year, I gave it up.
Just couldn't buy into the "latest & greatest" mentality....

I hadn't bow hunted for years, and I met a friend who was hell bent on getting me back into bow hunting.
I told him, "Bob, if I ever go back to bow hunting, it'll be with an old recurve and wood arrows..."
That was about 20 years ago. Here I am today!! :archer:

Yep,I call it brain sexing.

Trad has become my escape mechanism.  That and building my own bows! I started in the mid seventies with a wooden Ben Pearson longbow and what ever arrows I could afford at Sky City. Never killed anything  but a lot of time! Then a Bear compound in my teens. Left home and never picked up a bow until 2 years ago for my grandson's  birthday.  2 years has snowballed and the tinkered in me lays awake wondering what if.....what if I do it this way, or tweak this or change that.

Great mental break from my daily life and job. Every now and then I go to my home place and just launch arrows in the field to see how far they will go! That is still fun to this day!

As I have stated above earlier, I think it's just human nature, to try and build a better mouse trap...

But, as Ken just stated, It's FUN to just fling arrows!!!
I've been having the time of my life, up here at the new house.
I have a block target out in the yard... a 7 acre yard!!! I shoot about 20-25yds, for practice.
Then, I move around, out to 40-50yds to see if I can hit the block. Sometimes I just launch arrows out into the field, just to see if I can hit something?? At 62 and retired... The extra walking is good for me!!
I can help but think, all this shooting will help come Deer Season!!! :pray:

Before dismissing the idea that target-style form and strong attention to secondary form-based regimens must be the best answer to teaching instinctive shooting (without 'overthinking'), take a look at how this fellow's approach and description demonstrates the pointing vs. aiming approach to keeping things simple.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTOeLcXAQRo 

Quite an impressive explanation and demonstration IMO, and with hardly a mention of any intricate form philosophies as a prerequisite for teaching or learning success.  In point of fact, taking the latter approach can actually be counterproductive to learning how to shoot under hunting or close-range unpredictable shot situations...because it overthinks the 'how' parts of shooting.  Note he didn't say that form components aren't part of the learning process.  He's simply saying, and showing with actual shooting results, that they are secondary.   

In review... 
1.)  Pictures (or in this case videos) can be worth a thousand words; 
2.)  When we think we have the 'how' part all figured out, we probably overthought it;
3.)  Keeping it simple but successful doesn't require copying target form (it's a choice, not a law); and
4.)  In our traditional archery practice there's value in simplicity and keeping an open mind.

P.S.  The video author's comment on the importance of starting beginners out with a SPECIFIC POINT OF FOCUS (not just an empty pie plate and not with form requirements) was of special interest for me, as it establishes (IMO) the 1st and most important to-do of instinctive/intuitive shooting.  He clearly gets that aspect.  Maybe after seeing his demo others will as well.     



 

TSP, I don't know if we watched the same video. I heard him talk quite a bit in a couple different sections of the video about  using the right muscle, alignment and consistency...my paraphrasing. He also talked about practicing that "form" with a lighter bow or device (they showed students using bands). I didn't see or hear anything in that video that suggests that a student shouldn't be taught basic form.

You are making my point to a "T" a magic T tsp.... and form is FORM. There is no such thing as "target form" as everything we shoot is a target.
There are both shooting styles and aiming styles but *form* is constant.

Let's watch my oldest doing the Indian Sneak shot at 8 years old.... the Magic T at a very young age..... this was posted here in 2005.... Title of 'Perfecting the Indian Sneak Shot'....

This is my 8 year old....and she's tuff as nails at times let me tell ya when she gets her mind out of the way.

She hesitates till she sees that the arrow did go in between the shoulder bone and upper leg bone, then she confirms the shot....

Doe Indian Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry11.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXrSMeIRgsk&ab_channel=TradGang

Hard to see in the video....but she laid it right over the elbow...just barely,...just perfect.....   

Boar Indian Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry21.mp4)   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiOCK7mpdG0&ab_channel=TradGang

Check out her form.....bow arm, and follow through.  What's amaizing is that before today, she hasn't shot since this spring.....   

Rising Boar Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry31.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CK-V8gUhEQ&ab_channel=TradGang

Form Isolation.... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/shoot3.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtgEKwRDc3c&ab_channel=TradGang

Looks like these videos are in a format too old to play... got Rob on it!

I remember those slightly and how Rob can resurrect them!!!

Dang!!!! The Bowhush CEO is par excellence!!!

Looks like Rob fixed them.  How are them litte gals anyway? Bout grown I supose?

Quote from: Terry Green on August 16, 2022, 07:21:52 AM
You are making my point to a "T" a magic T tsp.... and form is FORM. There is no such thing as "target form" as everything we shoot is a target.
There are both shooting styles and aiming styles but *form* is constant.

Let's watch my oldest doing the Indian Sneak shot at 8 years old.... the Magic T at a very young age..... this was posted here in 2005.... Title of 'Perfecting the Indian Sneak Shot'....

This is my 8 year old....and she's tuff as nails at times let me tell ya when she gets her mind out of the way.

She hesitates till she sees that the arrow did go in between the shoulder bone and upper leg bone, then she confirms the shot....

Doe Indian Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry11.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXrSMeIRgsk&ab_channel=TradGang

Hard to see in the video....but she laid it right over the elbow...just barely,...just perfect.....   

Boar Indian Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry21.mp4)   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiOCK7mpdG0&ab_channel=TradGang

Check out her form.....bow arm, and follow through.  What's amaizing is that before today, she hasn't shot since this spring.....   

Rising Boar Sneak (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry31.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CK-V8gUhEQ&ab_channel=TradGang

Form Isolation.... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/shoot3.mp4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtgEKwRDc3c&ab_channel=TradGang

Nothing else to say. Oh, except yeah,  where'sthe littleblonde??? :campfire:

I have been trad shooting since before it was called that.  To this day I buy my wooden shafts, fletch them with 3, yellow, 5" feathers and go shoot them.  All this GPI, FOC stuff just makes no sense to me at all.  I've shot through bull elk, bear, mule deer and bunches of whitetails.  Still use Bear Razorheads because the animals die when I shoot them.  Yes, times change but the real things in life don't but what would people sell if everyone was satisfied with just doing it and enjoying it?

What is form?  Whenever we set up a shot in a standardized sequence we are employing "form". Now, this may be a very good or a very poor form. Every archer can set up a shot any way he/she pleases, but it is widely viewed that certain steps tend to constitute "good form". When I say "good form", I mean following shot set up that helps to produce consistently good performance. Most of the best shots I have seen tend to follow similar form. Reaching anchor, smooth release, employing back tension, forming a proper "T", etc. are not overthinking anything in my opinion. Others refer to muscle memory when discussing form, which is simply doing the same thing the same way until it becomes an automatic event. A good thing in my opinion. We learn form in a very stylized manner but learn to adapt when a hunting situation prevents the use of "perfect" form. Eventually, we develop a shot process that works for us. Granted, it may not work for the next guy. Developing good form is not overthinking!

Perhaps we do overthink a lot of things in gear selection and other aspects of the archery/bowhunting game. As silly as we may think some of the picky things people do, we need to remember that they can do things the way they choose. Just let their comment pass as what they actually are - their opinion. We don't have to agree with them to accept them as fellow sportsmen and friends.

GPI (weight per inch) and FOC seem straight forward enough to me. Mechanics are what they are and some shapes/forms are simply stronger than others. That's true whether we're talking about frame members of a building or body positions.

"Form" in archery is nothing more than trying to create a rigid platform for the bow that's is more easily repeated from shot to shot.

Quote from: mgf on August 18, 2022, 03:24:09 PM

"Form" in archery is nothing more than trying to create a rigid platform for the bow that's is more easily repeated from shot to shot.

I would add that a "rigid platform" is the static part of form; execution of the shot is the dynamic part of form.  Both equally important.

Good stuff Dave.... form is from the waist up. 

What's going on below the waste is as stated by McDave, the 'platform' for the shot. Your platform can be set in numerous positions, the 'Magic T' lets you venture out and 'manufacture' shots in basically endless positions for use in the field other than your 'back yard shot'.

The Magic T is all above the waste and is your real forum.  The only thing the platform is for is for stability of form.

Quote from: McDave on August 18, 2022, 03:50:49 PM

Quote from: mgf on August 18, 2022, 03:24:09 PM

"Form" in archery is nothing more than trying to create a rigid platform for the bow that's is more easily repeated from shot to shot.

I would add that a "rigid platform" is the static part of form; execution of the shot is the dynamic part of form.  Both equally important.

I agree but we must really be over-thinking now. Lol

Mgf, no, not complicated at all, and 'description' is not is not over thinking at all.  It's describing some thing that *is*, not over complicating a simple fact.  :campfire:

Terry, Looked for your "form clock"... Can't seem to find it?? :dunno:

Very top thread on the Shooters Form Forum ...

Here's a link.....

https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=109531.0

Wow, just realized it has 47,474 Views.

OH!! Duh.... Don't get old, kid :help:

Ha! Love that thread with the archaic drawings from dial up aol. Most have no clue what I'm talking about.  :saywhat:

But at the time, and still now, there is a reason there are so many views. I learned a thing or two on there as well!. What a great thread of history here for so many that learned how to sharpen or perfect their game!

I am an overthinker about some stuff, an instinctive practitioner of others. When I'm hunting I study weather patterns, food sources, and usually lie awake for an hour or so in the dark weighing the pros and cons of where and how to hunt that morning. But I've got a dozen hunting bows, arrows that work with several of them, and I take 2 or 3 bows on every trip. My where and how internal debate narrows the list of choices and I typically decide which bow I'm going to hunt with while I'm lacing up my boots and I know how they shoot from practicing with them.

Terry, I very much enjoyed the post of your daughter shooting (may I say pointing) her bow, thanks for including them.  She does well and enjoys it...that's really the 'point' I'd say.  She also looks amazingly like my grand daughter...sweet kids, small world.

But I must disagree that shooting form is always the same, as is aptly demonstrated by watching your daughter vs. say a competitive target archer.  No person (let alone seasoned archer of any type) would with a straight face deduce by detailed comparison or first glance that there's no difference in form between those approaches.  Form is essentially a physical aspect...how you physically hold your body parts and equipment in position during the shot...which can be as different as night and day regardless of what label one might give their approach and yet still produce success.  High elbow/low elbow, hard anchor/no anchor, bend or straight, dynamic or static, etc. etc...it's a study in intricacies, all variable from person to person and with regard to eventual results.  Are their similarities in how one does it?  Many.  Is form important in the overall?  Absolutely.  Might it make a difference in one's results?  Of course.  But are the variabilities of physical posture THE most important aspect of what one must learn when first learning?  Well let's just say that question is highly debatable and leave it at that. 

There is only one simple constant that NEVER (just a simple point of emphasis) changes when addressing what they want to hit...and that is in how they perceive (aim, or point at) the target itself.  That's the true key, the ONE constant that controls the rest.  It's hard to overthink that one constant.  It's usually the other/secondary aspects of shooting (like form for instance) that can get in the way.   

I'll close by simply saying I'm not not trying to be argumentative or downplay the roll of form for determining where overthinking might be (or become) a problem.  We can both agree that it is a necessary part of shooting.  It's just that I'd hate to see folks get the idea that just because their elbow is a little high or their release is a little quick or their head is a little tilted or (etc.) they are doomed to failure brought by imperfect (however perfect might be defined) form.

Here's a useful article by G. Fred Asbell on the importance of focusing on the mark for effective traditional shooting (see Traditional Bowhunter magazine, June/July issue, 2018, 'Concentration is the Key').  It's a good read for those that haven't seen it and lends some light (from a well-known and experienced hunter) about how much impact focus/concentration can have on one's own instinctive shooting.  A nice keeping-it-simple and very informative description of his approach to the subject.

:thumbsup: :archer2:

In "Hitting Them Like Howard Hill" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMMrSC1mBOY  John Shultz talked about how Howard Hill taught. About 10:40 in the video. He said that the beginner learning form should just practice form without hanging a target on the bale because you can't learn form and try to hit a target at the same time...and he talks about how critical form is. That's my paraphrasing of course.

Fred Bear was a lot of things but a very savvy businessman among them.  Making things look easy is good promotions.  If it looks hard & complicated, people would ooh and ahh but wouldn't bother to actually try it themselves.  It has to be approachable to sell well.

Like any gifted athlete, what they do looks easy.  But there's a lot more going on that only practitioners can appreciate.

I was under the impression that just a few decades ago, spine wasn't really discussed much because that's what fletching was for.  Now we know just how much it can matter for both consistency and penetration.

A lot more research & practice has gone into the sport since Bear's time.  Ashby is the first to come to mind.  And a lot of people hitting the woods with all their experiences ends up refining the process far better than one genius could ever hope to do.  It's akin to all those hospital patients who have died over the years to medical error that has given us the benefits of modern medicine.  And all those airline passengers who have died in crashes that have made airlines so safe today.  Yea, kudos to the Wright brothers but my hat's off to the (literal) fallen masses.  Fred Bear did some great things.  But all of us out in the field decade after decade has given us a wealth of knowledge & experience that he couldn't hope to match.

Then there's guys like me who spend maybe 5-10 days a year actually bowhunting vs 355 days in the back yard or on a field range.  That's a lot of time to obsess over trivial details of the shot instead of the important details of a hunt.  I wish it were the opposite.  And I'm sure if I spent more time hunting and less time shooting that I'd be way less focused on my gear.  But it is what it is.  And if I happen to get a shot opportunity on one of my few days a year to take a bow into the woods, then I really want to make sure that I don't screw up that shot.  It might be years before another opportunity comes around.

Quote from: McDave on August 03, 2022, 09:32:08 AM
What's one person's overthinking may be another person's favorite way of passing the time.  Most of us aren't making any money doing this, and those that are aren't making a whole lot.  Isn't the bottom line just to shoot the bow in the way that brings you the most enjoyment?  Face it, we're so far outside of mainstream American culture that we might as well be catfish noodlers, and most of us like it that way.  There's a lot more things that we have in common with each other in our remote little corner of the universe than there are dividing us, if we choose to look for them.

Now that comment about "Cat fish noodlers" cracked me up. I haven't heard that term in many years, and i'll bet there are a lot of guys that don't have a clue what that is... I did it with my Dad in St Helens Oregon in the 60's. I thought he was nuts at the time too.  But.... it works!    :biglaugh:

On topic here.... Overthinking something like arrow tuning is completely subject to each individual archers goals. Some guys say if you can group your arrows in a pie plate at 15 yards that's close enough, and go hunting. Others want pin point accuracy out to 30-40 yards and do not shoot the same spot on a 20 yard target to avoid ruining arrows..... These guys have a lot of fun fine tuning and balancing their shafts just so, and take pride in their accomplishments.

There is no right answer to this question.... Go try some noodling some time. Its a gas!   :biglaugh:

I have very much enjoyed this thread, and appreciate the opinions and friendly debate, of all involved!!!

I was looking for "opinions" and not a definate "answer" as we are all individuals!!!
We each do what we do, because it works for US!!

I was up here at the new house "off the grid" with lots of time on my hands, LOL!!
One of the things I had was the Fred Bear DVD collection. I watched the entire collection many times.
One of the things I noticed, was the BOXES of arrows that Fred brought with him on his trips.
They would shoot at stumps, small game, and Big Game.... They did a LOT of shooting!!
I watched one of Fred's partners (I believe it was Glen St.Charles?) Shoot & break 7-8 arrows trying to shoot a spruce grouse on a rocky hillside. Fred had a 3-4 arrow bow quiver on his bow, but he also had a saddle quiver hanging from the saddle horn with about a dozen arrows in it.

Now I believe that all of their arrows were spine matched to their bows. BUT, I find it hard to believe that EACH ARROW was "tuned"... My personal opinion, is that Fred had the confidence in his manufacturing, (and his shooting) to just pack several dozen appropriatly spined arrows, for his trip. If he lost or broke one, he had more...

Hense, the "Are we over thinking it" title. THANK YOU, for all of your responses!!! :notworthy:

Reading through several of the older books, I see no mention of "tuning arrows".  I think they just wanted arrows that flew straight.  Many shots were taken rather quickly, and straight flight not necessarily precision, was more important.  I'm certain they didn't pack a grain scale along on those trips.  Just put the best sharp head they had back on an unbroken shaft and went on.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:

I believe that everyone in the past did the best they could with what they had to work with.  The science of everything has increased over the centuries. 
Knowing one can improve on something is a driver for many people.  Personally I want to do the best I can at whatever I choose to do.  Sometimes a hammock and light weight bag is a better choice than a full tent set up.  Sometimes a travel trailer is the best option.
I believe most will do what works for them and that's exactly what should happen. 

However I in no way believe Fred Bear said ah, it's good enough.  Or else his line of equipment wouldn't still be a standard in the industry.

Very TRUE, Gary!!!!

Fred was Mechanical Design Engineer....
They had an interview with him on the history of Bear Archery. One of the funniest stories he told, was him going on a bear hunt, with one of the new compounds that they were producing at that time.

Fred was a "self taught" archer, and as he described, a "snap shooter"
He would focus on the target, draw, and soon as he hit anchor, release....
He explained, that if he missed, he couldn't just try again and aim higher. All he could really do, was just pull it back a little farther.... :dunno: On his bear hunt with the compound, every time the cams rolled over and let off, he would lose everything!! :banghead: He couldn't hit anything...
He ended up killing a bear, by putting a sight on his bow!! :help:

He developed his Kodiak T/D because on a trip to Alaska, his bow and equipment, went to Seatle...
Being the only left hander in the party, he couldn't bow hunt and ended up using a rifle.
He developed the T/D because he wanted a bow that would come apart, and fit under a plane seat.
Fred was always trying to make things better!! But, back in the day....
They did the best they could, with what they had!! :thumbsup: :archer2: :thumbsup:

I think that both Fred and Howard knew the importance of keeping it simple in the overall, to not 'overthink it' on their way to learning or teaching others how to shoot.  Mgf references John Shultz's video a few posts back and rightly indicates how important Hill/Shultz thought form was/is to their shooting.  But interestingly, if you go to that same video tape at the 31:02 mark you can listen to Shultz himself make the point about accuracy on game, as follows (emphasis added here for making this critical point...again): 

"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

I suppose t's a little like the chicken and the egg scenario but in this case one of the two definately comes first.  If one wishes to learn or teach others how to shoot in a simple and effective style that begins at the actual beginning, don't forget to first pick a point of focus to 'bore a hole through' before worrying too much about intricate body-based form components.  You'll find it much easier to develop the latter if you start with the former.  Good shooting to all.   

If I may add.... I think we can all agree, that form and shooting, go hand in hand. :archer2:

What I was talking about by "overthinking" was actually "tuning"
We have many new members here, crossing over from the "compound community"...
Tuning and maintaining a compound bow, is a constant state of tinkering. (IMHO)
There is only so much that you can tinker with on a traditional bow. So, we do the basics, then switch to ARROWS...
I do not bare shaft. Never have... I have shot the same broadheads, since I was a kid.
Old green Bear Razorheads, or 125gr Zwickey Eskimos.

The Zwickey Eskimos and my 125gr field points, have ALWAYS flown the same!!
I don't practice with the Razorheads, because they don't make them anymore!  :readit:
This year, I switched to 135gr Zwickey Deltas, to match my 135gr Judos....
So far, I have been VERY pleased with the performance of both!!! BOTH hit in the same spot EVERY time!!! :archer:

As far as arrows are concerned, there are as many types, weights, and spines of shafting, as there are types and weights of points and broadheads. Let's not to forget insert and adaptor weights, and fletching!!
If someone wanted to tinker and tune.... They could spend months, even years, on arrows!!

My point is.... (This is just one old fart's opinion)

For the "newbees"... Let's help them keep it simple!!!
A good bow that they can afford  and shoot comfortably...
A MATCHED set of arrows, spined correctly for that bow...
A shooting style they are comfortable and consistant with... (split-finger? 3-under?)
THEN, get them shooting!!! Close at first, and YES! ALL arrows in a paper plate, is good for a beginner!!!
Let's help them learn to SHOOT first!! The tinkering and tuning, will come later...

It's just human nature :archer2:

"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

Yep, after you learn to shoot,  you work out the *simple* mechanics in practice. I would add that bale work to that practice for the fastest way to nail down the magic T.

Like I said earlier, on game I don't even remember drawing the bow.... its all ingrained.

TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?

Quote from: Terry Green on September 06, 2022, 11:02:24 AM
"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

Yep, after you learn to shoot,  you work out the *simple* mechanics in practice. I would add that bale work to that practice for the fastest way to nail down the magic T.

Like I said earlier, on game I don't even remember drawing the bow.... its all ingrained.

TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?

Agreed.  The form clock says it all pretty much.  Form is from the waist up and should be very close to the same for everyone.  One must practice and perfect before play.  Its essential to have the fundamentals down pat before the game begins or you are doing yourself and the game a disservice. It's not complicated, but its certainly not blase' either. 

Great thread btw guys.

"TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?"  Terry Green

No Terry, taking pictures of myself has never been on my bucket list.  An old laptop is my techno-connection...I don't even own a smartphone let alone a video camera.  Does a TracFone count?   :biglaugh:

Keeping life simple does have it's virtues.   

Maybe we are "under thinking" it!

TSP, thx, that answers a lot of questions.

I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

Quote from: Bamboozle on September 08, 2022, 05:59:19 PM
I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

I'm not sure but I will say my new phone having the slow motion video is pretty cool to use.  I plan to utilize it on helping my shooting.

Quote from: Bamboozle on September 08, 2022, 05:59:19 PM
I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

A bucket list is a list of things you aspire to do before you die.  TSP does not aspire to film himself before he dies, therefore it is not on his bucket list.  Works.  Perhaps not as dramatic as saying going to outer space before he dies is not on his bucket list, but that's what makes it funny.  Reverse hyperbole, or understatement.

If one hunts different species, and in a variety of terrain and conditions, different " forms " may be required. Standing, kneeling, crouching, sitting, all require slightly different alignment and muscle use for me. And yes, many seem to over think the process.

Every day that we over-analyze what we do for fun rather than simply enjoying the fun of doing it is in my view overthinking it.  In that vein, a 'simple stick and string' can without question be shot simply and effectively by many, without the learning process being too slide-rule perfect. 

As with most things, archery comes easier to some than to others and that for sure has some weight on the 'how to do it' part, but we shouldn't be too quick to overcomplicate the learning steps when simplicity in how we first approach it might work just as well, and in terms of self-satisfaction perhaps even better than, a multi-step cookie cutter approach.  Something worth considering if your instinctive shooting experience seems more dominated by struggles with how-to steps and frustrating cases of target panic than what you originally hoped for.

Some people enjoy analyzing. 

The only frustration I've ever gotten from archery is trying to find a place to hunt I can afford (fail so far) and years of lousy shooting because I started out all wrong..."wrong" defined as it didn't work very well.

Back in the beginning I bought a bow and just started shooting. I hit my target just often enough to let me believe that I knew what I was doing. I didn't and the result was a great deal of frustration over more years than I care to think about. I little "analysis" or form instruction could have made a big difference. Knowing how and why gives me control and the ability to reproduce results that I just didn't have for all those years.

IMO hunting doesn't present exceptions to "form" but rather applications where it's that much more important. A hunter will benefit as much from understanding the mechanics as any target shooter. The goal is still to hit what you're shooting at.

Some people are naturals or prodigies most of us aren't.

Well, I'll jump in again...

After a month of watching the Bear DVD set, and noticing that the brought boxes (plural) of hunting arrows with them. I will say again, I find it hard to believe, that each arrow was "tuned" to their bow.
MATCHED yes!! For spine, and point weight. But tuned?? I think not...

I personally, do not tune my arrows. It's a personal thing...
I do not bare shaft. Early man put feathers on arrows for a reason....
All of my arrows are matched. Length, spine, point weight, and fletching. My son builds them for me.
I can take an arrow, from any old set of arrows, and shoot it... They ALL fly the same.

My problem with "tuning" is that we have new folks here, that read our posts.
They see posts about bare shafting, and heavy FOC, different types & weights of broadheads.
I think they start to believe that the only way to become a good shot, is to "build" the perfect arrow.
Trying to build the perfect arrow, and tune it to your bow BEFORE you learn to shoot GOOD,
Is simply putting the cart, before the horse!! :deadhorse:

Man has evolved over time, and things have changed...
It's only human nature to try and "build a better mouse trap".
But in the beginning, you have to learn to walk, before you can run...

Find a set-up you're happy with, and stick with it!!!
Keep it simple.....  :archer2:

Just one old fart's opinion...

Regarding the sensibility and usefulness of finding a version of form that works for you, it isn't that form is unnecessary or can't improve one's shooting.  I hope that point is already clear.  Of course it can help you!  And it will make you a better archer in the long run regardless of whether target shooting or hunting is the goal.  My point is, 'good form' is a very personalized thing and as such is best developed by the shooter to fit his/her 'what works for me' intuitions, over time, rather than simply copying someone else's pictures and book narrative simply because they shoot well.   Doing 'good form' as promoted by others might be very helpful.  But then again it might be an awful fit that presents more problems for you than it does fixes.

For example, watch the form of ten different experienced 'good' shooters...those who have shot for awhile and can shoot relatively well.  You will likely see ten approaches that have both differences and similarities.  Some of the differences may be markedly off from those often portrayed as 'good form', or put another way, the differences are often regarded by others as 'bad form'.  And yet, their form works quite well for them as proven by their shooting results.  You might even see someone try to demonstrate form characteristics that they insist are the 'right' way to shoot (based on what they have seen others do or have read about), yet their actual/observable form is quite different than what they 'thought' they were doing (that happens alot, lol).  This is one situation where a picture probably WOULD be helpful for showing aspects of their shot that might benefit from some tweaking, but again the main point is that good form can be (and often is) amazingly variable between individuals.  It's something best digested  over time, using practice and self-taught common sense.  It can either be complicated (your choice) or simple (again your choice).  But whatever you choose it to be, it is ALWAYS secondary to what your mind tells you, as in what you are trying to hit.  That is what happens before form begins.  What your eyes focus on and how they perceive the 'spot', well before any components of drawing and shooting come into play...come first and control any later variables relating to where to put one's arms. legs, hands, fingers, head angle or any other body parts that are positioned before shooting.  Learning how to focus is the first priority, every time.  Oddly, it is usually the least discussed and most forgotten part of the learning process.

Put another way, if a new or inexperienced shooter allows their body part manipulation sequence (whatever they or others deem it to be) to take precedent over how they focus on the mark they want to hit, they will be far more likely to develop complications that hurt their shooting more than help it. 

Patience in learning what comes first and (over time) what works best... is worth its weight in gold. 

Don't ask me how I know that, lol.

The basics of good form is mechanics. Some shapes are stronger than others. The advantage of coming close to a very strong shape is that it makes it much easier to handle the weight a be repeatable.

The reason that aiming or "the spot" is talked about less is because it's the easy part. If you can repeat the shot the arrows hit the same place. Pointing them someplace else in easy.

By contrast poor form results in a shot that's hard to control and harder to repeat. Concentrate hard as you like but a coin toss is a more accurate predictor of where the arrow will land.

Wood I don't think most advocate building the perfect arrow first.  I think most will tell you that tuning is a waste of time until your mechanics and form are right and consistent.
Get a set up that is close and work on the stuff that counts.  Only then will tuning give you the results and benefits.
That said those guys that say any old arrow works are the same one blaming the broadhead when they get four inches of penetration and a running animal with the arrow waving bye bye as it runs off with that running animal never more to be seen.
As far are when to learn to aim, well YMMV.

I agree with TSP that no two good archers shoot with identical good form.  Variations can be minor, like how much time to spend holding at full draw, or major, like the difference between horse archery and Olympic archery.

However, any good archer would recommend not doing the following things, learning to be aware of when these mistakes are made, and how to correct them:

Creeping
Plucking
Peeking
Dropping the bow arm prematurely
Losing concentration
Not focusing on the spot
Not coming to full draw and anchoring*
Inconsistent alignment*
Torquing
Grabbing the bow handle on release
Unsafe practices, like extending a bow hand finger when drawing a broadhead, etc.
Failure to follow through*

*Granted, I have seen trick shots where an expert shooter doesn't seem to worry about the things I asterisked, and still hits the target, but for our purposes here, we should still consider the things on this list to be errors the average shooter needs to be aware of and how to correct.

Teaching a new shooter to recognize these errors, and some I probably forgot to put on the list, and how to correct them, is a big part of the "form" training I do.  I don't teach any of these things in the abstract; always immediately after observing them.  Shooters who come to me for help are usually frustrated because they can see by their results that they are doing something wrong, but don't know exactly what it is.  Rather than spending years going down blind alleys, they can quickly be put on the right track if a knowledgeable instructor observes what they're doing.

Yes, many overthink it. With practice, the traditional bow is relatively easy to master at shorter ranges. I think when some try to make a long range weapon out of one best designed for shorter ranges ( for me about 22 yards and less )  then the lines get blurred, especially for those who shoot without a sight aid. I like to keep my hunting simple and enjoyable. We all have our own goals and objectives, mine are not very high and therefore they are easily achievable. My suggestion would be to set realistic goals and not try to push the limits of the simple bow and arrow, keep it fun.

I too started many years ago.

I have a great appreciation for understanding my equipment and to make sure my practice and hunting sessions are more a result of my execution (no pun intended) and not hindered by equipment set-up.

I remember in the early days not knowing much about matching arrows to the bow. Sometimes I got lucky and true flight was achieved. Other times wind-planing of broadheads caused me to miss. I blamed this on the broadhead and tried different ones.

I wish I had known more about some of the technical aspects of equipment set-up and shooting process that first decade that I've known the past 4 decades.  For me, the technical issues only add to the off-season intrigue and fun of archery.

Late to the discussion but I have to agree.  I personally started over thinking and messing with ILF and tech bows after starting with longbows and it sucked the fun out of it.  I went back to wood arrows and selfbows and simply shoot knowing that I wood arrows are not perfect and I am shooting them from a crooked, definitely not perfect, Osage stick.  It became enjoyable again.  It forces you to shoot better and practice more.  Tech can be fun but it also has people worrying about tuning to the point of indiscernible change and rather than shooting and learning to shoot well.  When you see guys shooting off the knuckle with stone points and crooked arrows consistently taking game while the ILF super tune "hunter" is wounding animals it says a lot.

Again, nothing wrong with that but keeping it simple can be beneficial.  In my case it is and makes things way more fun! 

The one thing I noticed watching those bear videos is usually all he took was a knife, Bino's and his bow and quiver. Not much else. That makes me envious not taking a stand and other gear most carry today.

Well put Roy.

My Dad got me n my brothers into archery in 1975. We knew very little but we asked questions and read up on what we could find.
We usef wood and aluminum. I do think it's  smart to tune our bows n arrows as best we can.
It did seem simpler back them though. Pick up a 2016 with 125 grain head..shooting 45 lbs..good to go.
I like to keep it simple..doesn't mean I don't experiment sometimes.
Never heard of bare shafting back then but we could tell when am arrow was flying straight, though in the beginning it took us a little while to figure it out.

One might jokingly say that the fact that this thread has lasted so long shows that we tend to overthink this game. Probably we do tend to do that. Even a simpleton like me does it. For example, consider form. Most of us strive for a more or less "standardized" form". We all make certain adjustments as we progress. During this time of learning, we try many things, some which turn out to be mere gimmicks and some that significantly contributed to our proficiency with the bow. But as we get older and more experienced, I think we tend to overthink less often. We find what makes a productive routine, and we stick to it. Overthinking is not necessarily a bad thing unless we get so absorbed in the "lesson" that we fail to grasp the kernels of wisdom. But I think even the most compulsive of us eventually figure out what is best for us and go with it. Besides, it may well be the overthinkers who come with each new breakthrough

Actually, this thread lasted WAY longer, than I thought it would... :thumbsup: :bigsmyl: :thumbsup:

QuoteMy point being, Years ago, people picked up a bow and arrows, and PRACTICED untill they got good!! :archer2:

These days, it seems (to me) that folks are looking for a "quick way" to get good.
That if everything is perfectly matched and tuned. they should be able to hit the target every time.
If they don't???? Well, they should have a perfect group "somewhere" to help them figure out why not??
Maybe this comes from the compound bows?? Keep fiddling and adjusting, untill you get it right...

I had to go back and read the OPs questions again... This thread got way longer than i thought it would, but has brought a lot of things to consider....

To answer the 1st question... The very same guy who practiced until he got good was out there shooting a new batch of arrows he just built, and couldn't help but notice that one of his arrows was constantly off the mark, and a second one off the mark in a different direction.... :dunno:

In the old days you just break those two arrows over your knee, and keep the good ones. (Fred Bear style i'm sure)  End of story.... I used the same type of tuning method myself. If they don't fly right... get rid of them. I don't want an arrow in my quiver that doesn't fly right.

But there are those certain types of people that want to know why those two perfectly good arrows are not flying the same. Is it overthinking it to use a spine tester, and possibly rotate a nock to set these weird flying shafts back into the bulls eye?   I think not...


The second question is.  If your arrow shafts are spine matched and perfectly balanced,  you are right...You should be able to shoot much more accurately with matched arrows.... IF not.... It's your own inconsistencies that are causing the problem.....  Figure it out, or live with it....

But lets go back to the point where you are already shooting good.... If you have matched arrows and maintain your form you will shoot better, and you will KNOW when a missed shot is due to your ooops rather than the arrow..... If it's the same arrow shooting right or left, than you know it's the shaft.

I'm the kind of guy who believes you only get out what you put into anything you do. I don't think spending time building perfectly matched arrows is overthinking anything.  If we are talking shooting style, form, release, or heaven forbid target panic... I believe this stuff gets way too much overthinking at times.

Kirk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EOSeUs1lUo

Here's an experienced fellow that is a successful instinctive hunter, a very good shot, and who explains and demonstrates very effectively the importance of not 'overthinking' the shot. 

First and foremost, above all else, establish and practice one's focus on the spot.  Without the need to think about how you do it. 

Second, don't allow the intricacies of adopting complicated form be your downfall.  No matter how well you 'think' you have your long list of form components figured out during practice it won't translate well to the field, where scripting of a mental form checklist makes little sense and is largely impractical for shooting under pressures of the moment.

To put it simply, keep it simple.  It'll save you a truckload of headaches in the woods. 

 

One of the best videos I've seen in a long time.   :thumbsup:

The author of the video that TSP posted has evidently honed his form to the point that he can concentrate all of his attention on the most important aspect of the shot to him, which being an instinctive shooter, is the spot he wants to hit.  This is something that we all aspire to do: master the mechanics of the shot to the point that we can forget about them and focus on the one thing that is most important to us.  In the case of Joel Turner, who is a gap shooter, the most important aspect of the shot is the tiny movement that activates the trigger. For someone else, it may be expansion to conclusion.  All can be as successful as the author of TSP's video, with different methods of getting there.

For a person who wants to simplify the shot, he still manages in the course of the video to discuss about a dozen things that can go wrong with it, and I have no doubt that he could come up with a dozen more if he thought about it.  These are probably all things that he has done himself, and overcome in the course of becoming an expert.

I would imagine if he were teaching someone and that person wanted to know why his arrows are going all over the place, he would not say "just focus on the spot and it will all come together in time."  He obviously knows what he is doing, and he would say "you need to have a consistent anchor," "keep your head still," or whatever else he sees is going on.  And I'm sure he would follow it up with "Once you practice these things long enough, you should be able to do them without thinking about it."

That's all that good form is, really, no matter who is teaching it.

I've watched some of his videos,but this was a good one for sure. He hits on things and puts them into words better than I can. He's right about the two things it can be most of the time. I pluck or move my bow. I think most of the time it's a pluck and that can't help but move your bow arm. Another thing he brought up that I have a big problem with is letting go of the string. I'm taller than my dad and plenty strong,but don't have really strong hands and wrist. He has much stronger hands than I do and can pick a bow up and do pretty well never having shot,and I think it's something to do with the fact that he's that strong in that area.

I've starting working out more and it's helping. It's the only thing I can think of to help this sort of thing.

Re: Are we "over thinking" it....??
Depends on how your wire and how easy your swayed by a conversion. I been bare shaft tuning for over 30 years with both trad bow and compounds I am a thinker so I like to change things up but I also no when to quit and go back to what works. I see so much BS about how folks should and should not shoot and if you don't shoot their way you have TP or if your bow is not made with a CNC than it's the bowsyer fault. There are so many variables and so many rabbit holes to go down that sometimes we for get just to have fun shooting our bows. I do more stump shooting these days than target or 3Ds. I have lean and continue to learn a lot from a lot of folk here on Trad Gang.

Quote from: TSP on February 02, 2023, 10:23:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EOSeUs1lUo

Here's an experienced fellow that is a successful instinctive hunter, a very good shot, and who explains and demonstrates very effectively the importance of not 'overthinking' the shot. 

First and foremost, above all else, establish and practice one's focus on the spot.  Without the need to think about how you do it. 

Second, don't allow the intricacies of adopting complicated form be your downfall.  No matter how well you 'think' you have your long list of form components figured out during practice it won't translate well to the field, where scripting of a mental form checklist makes little sense and is largely impractical for shooting under pressures of the moment.

To put it simply, keep it simple.  It'll save you a truckload of headaches in the woods. 

Just a steady bow arm and a good release. Is that all?  Even Jason couldn't let it go at that and had to elaborate on it for about 15 minutes...after decades of working out the bugs.

I agree though...if you have a steady bow arm and a good release you don't need to worry about anything but "the spot". If  you don't have that steady bow arm and good release your path to being able to hit "the spot" with any regularity may be a little more complicated. John Shultz  recommended practicing form in front of a blank bale...without a spot to concentrate on.

John Shultz recommended practicing without a 'spot' but when he said that he was referring to building form.  Before practicing his shot (i.e., before applying his form) he said that one should 'burn a hole' in the spot in order to hit it.  Hill said the same thing.  Kinda' makes sense, seeing as they were lifelong practitioners of an approach that was the poster child for keeping it simple while also being effective.  So basically you first concentrate on the spot, then apply form, then execute the shot.  In that order. 

I think Jason's point is that if you avoid the pitfalls of adopting a complicated form set and keep it simple from the get-go you will probably have more success, fewer disappointments and will almost certainly enjoy the process much more than if you fight your way through it with applied trigonometry and mental checklists.  He has found that not overthinking it is the best way.  Hard to argue with that, IMO.     

Actor Brendan Fraser, a beginning archer and excellent actor, gets it.  Keep it simple, enjoy the experience and don't get into a panty twist re exact form or 'aiming'.  Maybe a few of you Louisiana boys helped him out along his path.  BTW, check him out in the movie 9The Whale'.  Awesome performance.

If you're out there Brendan... :archer: 

https://youtu.be/5Sd5NLyPAaQ

Quote from: TSP on February 25, 2023, 02:50:18 PM
John Shultz recommended practicing without a 'spot' but when he said that he was referring to building form.  Before practicing his shot (i.e., before applying his form) he said that one should 'burn a hole' in the spot in order to hit it.  Hill said the same thing.  Kinda' makes sense, seeing as they were lifelong practitioners of an approach that was the poster child for keeping it simple while also being effective.  So basically you first concentrate on the spot, then apply form, then execute the shot.  In that order.

Point being that the "form" is a requirement" and, for many of us, it doesn't happen by accident.

Quote

I think Jason's point is that if you avoid the pitfalls of adopting a complicated form set and keep it simple from the get-go you will probably have more success, fewer disappointments and will almost certainly enjoy the process much more than if you fight your way through it with applied trigonometry and mental checklists.  He has found that not overthinking it is the best way.  Hard to argue with that, IMO.   

I'd caution against taking Jason's struggles with his own shooting issues as some sort of lesson in the best way to shoot. He repeatedly talks about the need for a steady bow arm and a good release. We could make a great case that both start with and stem from good alignment. It's tough to argue against physics. If alignment is good the bow arm doesn't have any reason to move. If alignment is poor, you aren't going to stop it from moving. Watch his release in his latest shooting video.

There is a chapter by Howard Hill where he refers to a fellow archer who despite trying departed the mortal realm still a bit off in his execution!

I have started to believe in the process with the shot hitting the target as a consequence of perfect form. Self analysis is a must for improvement and I am not decrying anyone's "process".
Have fun and keep plugging!

You either have proper form and alignment  or not, .... same as a woman is either pregnant or not.  It's best to get the propers on the bale and not in the field.

If you have proper alignment then all you do is focus on the spot.  Sometimes I don't even remember drawing the bow, or if the animal is walking or not. (as in the other thread started).  I also start aiming way before I draw the bow. 

As with any other athletic maneuver, its best to have the basics down for best performance.

Love wood, hate carbon. Out of a LB anyway. If you are super worried about making crappy shots don't shoot Trad. You most certainly will if you're actually shooting at game. Keep it close, do your best. Tough love. But anyone shooting a bow misses, kills, and wounds. I don't care what kind of bow. If you can't stand that thought maybe bow hunting isn't for you. I watch the "pros" do all the same.  All you can do is control the very best you can.

Overspined, that goes for gunpowder as well. 

And if ya don't want to have a wreck, don't drive. I sure hope to be the best driver I can so I won't wreck. :campfire:

This has been a good thread, thanks to the OP for posting his initial question and to the mods for working with the topic fairly.  But I guess we've final overthunk whether we're overthinking.  The definative answer (after 6 pages, lol) is probably.

Don't overthink but at the same time don't forget about what's MOST important along the way.  Peace to all.   

Wow!!! Woodchucker's Wondering sure went far!!!

Many thanks to all!!!!  :notworthy:

Maybe I'm one of the weird ones, but I kinda enjoy overthinking every aspect of all of this trad stuff, from bare shaft tuning, broadhead sharpening, string building, and now, bow building and everything that goes into all of this. I guess that's what keeps the fire burning. "Have fun with it and don't let it become work"

Quote from: Smguinnip on April 15, 2023, 09:17:38 PM
Maybe I'm one of the weird ones, but I kinda enjoy overthinking every aspect of all of this trad stuff, from bare shaft tuning, broadhead sharpening, string building, and now, bow building and everything that goes into all of this. I guess that's what keeps the fire burning. "Have fun with it and don't let it become work"

I think that addresses the 'overthinking' issue well. The question becomes "overthinking to whom?" I ENJOY being an overthinker. Some folks approach a traditional journey with the precision of thought that mirrors that of a butchers meat clever; while others of us enjoy the greater precision approach of a surgeon's scalpel. Both instruments cut meat. To each his own. Whatever makes you happy.

Grip it... and rip it... and get er done... :biglaugh:

I'm a gun slinger with a hatchet scalpeI, I don't over think, I kill shitt. Others play make believe..

Well said Terry.
I usually stay off these kinds of threads, but I always say, if you don't shoot with your head, you wont have target panic.

A short answer to the original question.....BOTH

I think we do over think things a bit, at least I do. One of my other hobbies is firearms, and I get obsessed with a rifle/scope/ammo combination. It carries over to archery for sure.

I do think it is wise to take advantage of all the precision we have available to us, and to make sure our bow/arrow combinations are capable of as close to perfection as we can. A notion...again carried over from rifles....if we can create something that holds a 1/2 inch group when a 4 inch group is all we need, then that slop belongs to us, not the weapon. WE get to take advantage of the room for error.

That said, I think we should chill on the weights and measures a bit and focus on form and practice.

Quote from: Roger Norris on April 17, 2023, 08:33:59 AM
A short answer ....

That said, I think we should chill on the weights and measures a bit and focus on form and practice.

HELLO!!!!!

Quote from: Pine on April 16, 2023, 09:14:24 PM
Well said Terry.
I usually stay off these kinds of threads, but I always say, if you don't shoot with your head, you wont have target panic.

HELLO  AGAIN!!!....

Don't let internet idiots put monsters in your head.  They are dealing with monsters themselves and they want to shed some off to you.

Quote from: Terry Green on April 17, 2023, 10:33:10 AM

Quote from: Pine on April 16, 2023, 09:14:24 PM
Well said Terry.
I usually stay off these kinds of threads, but I always say, if you don't shoot with your head, you wont have target panic.

HELLO  AGAIN!!!....

Don't let internet idiots put monsters in your head.  They are dealing with monsters themselves and they want to shed some off to you.

Yep. Needs to be said again.

 Good sage advice Terry. Say if you don't mind could you e-mail me or send private message.
I need to order  something from you.
Thanks

Quote from: Terry Green on April 17, 2023, 10:33:10 AM

Quote from: Pine on April 16, 2023, 09:14:24 PM
Well said Terry.
I usually stay off these kinds of threads, but I always say, if you don't shoot with your head, you wont have target panic.

HELLO  AGAIN!!!....

Don't let internet idiots put monsters in your head.  They are dealing with monsters themselves and they want to shed some off to you.

With all due respect, what are you talking about?

mgf, if I have to explain you would understand.

Not sure, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to the 9 idiots that told Johnnyba he had target panic when he didn't.

Many tend to overthink just about everything. We'll never change them, so just hear them spout off, letting "stuff" go in one ear and out the other. Then the rest can just work out the problem and get on down the road in life.

Quote from: Bamboozle on April 17, 2023, 06:20:52 PM
Not sure, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to the 9 idiots that told Johnnyba he had target panic when he didn't.

Give that man a kewpie doll! :biglaugh: :biglaugh: