At 15 yards, I hit the target right where I aim. At 20, I hit 6-8 inches low. I'd like to hold over less.
The bow I shoot is labeled 62# @ 26 inches, but when I test it at my girlish 25.5 inch draw length it comes in about 55#.
My arrow is 27 inches, broadhead weighs 300 grains, with (2) 75 grain inserts for a total arrow weight of 755 grains. This makes FOC about 31% and I'm using 4 inch feathers. Huge set up, but I have alaska and africa on the radar.
I am killing animals, and had a fun season so far. However, I just shot another spike, arrow stuck out about 4 inches opposite shoulder, but not a pass through, distance was 8 yards. Recovered fine, I'm just not happy with my set up not ripping through a little Texas white tail, when I'm wanting it to kill a Bull Moose. I've killed 7 pigs, zero full pass throughs, but I am killing them. I'm just concerned about the jump in animal size without getting pass throughs on these smaller game.
Arrows are tuned well, my head's are sharp, is this the best I can do? What else might you suggest I do? Should I experiment with different arrows or a different bow? Is this just how trad bow hunting is and the next five deer I shoot might be full pass throughs?
Im not sure Ive ever worried about getting pass throughs, as long as Im getting into the vitals. Im shooting 60lb @28 and have a 29 inch draw. id say I get a pass through about one in 5 animals shot. Mostly fallow and pigs. Goats more often but many of them are quite small. A reasonable size pig will generally stop my arrow unless its gone through exactly broadside and missed anything heavy.
Well, I'm just an old woodchucker...
I shoot wooden arrows, tipped with old green Bear Razorhheads. I couldn't tell you what they weigh??
Idk? MAYBE you might want to try a lighter arrow?? The "standard" is about 10grs per pound...
That would be about 550grs for a 55# bow, 755grs just seems kinda heavy for your 55# bow???
I'm not a "speed" advocate by any means, but a lighter arrow would certainly help your trajectory.
Just one old fart's opinion... :archer:
Quote from: woodchucker on December 28, 2021, 01:01:18 PM
Well, I'm just an old woodchucker...
I shoot wooden arrows, tipped with old green Bear Razorhheads. I couldn't tell you what they weigh??
Idk? MAYBE you might want to try a lighter arrow?? The "standard" is about 10grs per pound...
That would be about 550grs for a 55# bow, 755grs just seems kinda heavy for your 55# bow???
I'm not a "speed" advocate by any means, but a lighter arrow would certainly help your trajectory.
Just one old fart's opinion... :archer:
I need Old Fart's opinions. Thanks! I just need to do more experiments with arrows.
Try paper tuning at close distances to see if at that short 8 yards your arrow was "straight on".
Kinetic energy assuming your shooting 190 feet per second is about 62 foot pounds . Lighter arrow less kinetic energy but faster speeds . Looks like your set up good for large game ,I would say even Big Game in the right spot . That is a real heavy 27 inch arrow. Alot of FOC . Why no pass through who knows maybe hit two ribs or front leg. But sounds like you got animals and that's all that matters. You are doing everything right . As long as arrow tuned right . Again 31 is a lot of FOC . 10 to 15 percent is all you need .20 is high .
Kinetic Energy Recommendations for Bowhunting
Small Game 25 ft.lbs.
Medium Game (Deer, Antelope) 25-41 ft.lbs.
Large Game (Elk, Black Bear, Boar) 42-65 ft.lbs.
Big Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly Bear) 65 ft.lbs.
Im old, been howhunting deer for prolly 65 yrs and I think Ive only had one clean pass through and it was a bad shot. 50# bows mostly. Maybe its my tuning or lack there of, but I just cant help but wonder why I read and hear of so many.
I'm running a 27.5" draw on a 50lb@28 and 55lb@28 bows. I normally have two holes. As often as not the arrow is on the ground just past where I shot the animal or within the first ten yards. And that's on boars inbthe 200lb class.
Quote from: BAK on December 28, 2021, 03:50:43 PM
Try paper tuning at close distances to see if at that short 8 yards your arrow was "straight on".
I'll tell ya I was big on paper tuning but I've been using a go pro or other camera to record the shot. You can break the arrow flight down frame by frame and it's amazing what you see. Even when arrows seem good the may be able to improve. I agree with the straight on theory for sure. Just another way possibly the op could watch his flight plus to be honest, it's easier
Maybe the animals that you're shooting get "pushed" by the arrow???? I've had a number of pass through shots on big Missouri whitetails, but I cannot remember even one pass through on squirrels??? Maybe a bigger, heavier animal is what you need to get a pass through?
Just my warped mind thinking out loud.
Good luck, shoot straight and God bless,
Rodd
Quote from: Bowguy67 on December 28, 2021, 05:57:23 PM
Quote from: BAK on December 28, 2021, 03:50:43 PM
Try paper tuning at close distances to see if at that short 8 yards your arrow was "straight on".
I'll tell ya I was big on paper tuning but I've been using a go pro or other camera to record the shot. You can break the arrow flight down frame by frame and it's amazing what you see. Even when arrows seem good the may be able to improve. I agree with the straight on theory for sure. Just another way possibly the op could watch his flight plus to be honest, it's easier
Camera behind you or to the side or both?
Bowguy, I do this with an iphone in slow motion mode.
Quote from: Matagorda on December 28, 2021, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: Bowguy67 on December 28, 2021, 05:57:23 PM
Quote from: BAK on December 28, 2021, 03:50:43 PM
Try paper tuning at close distances to see if at that short 8 yards your arrow was "straight on".
I'll tell ya I was big on paper tuning but I've been using a go pro or other camera to record the shot. You can break the arrow flight down frame by frame and it's amazing what you see. Even when arrows seem good the may be able to improve. I agree with the straight on theory for sure. Just another way possibly the op could watch his flight plus to be honest, it's easier
Camera behind you or to the side or both?
For nock height of use side to side but I think it's most beneficial when used directly when mounted on my head or from the back. You really need to see exactly what arrow does. I believe I have a video still of a feathered shaft I filmed just to show a bud what I was looking for/at. If I do I'll post a pic or two
Quote from: Ronnie Newell on December 28, 2021, 07:58:14 PM
Bowguy, I do this with an iphone in slow motion mode.
Ronnie I've never done it with a phone. How would you go about that?
Some pics of an arrow overcompensating. Starts off one way than heads the next. Imagine if you hit a deer with this arrow at this range you would be hitting with some side pressure. Wasted energy. Not the arrow for this bow, just an example
Overcompensation. Same shot. When using the camera you can zoom in it's not transferring perfect here
Bowguy, I get the wife to stand behind and over me and video the shot then replay it in slow motion.
Gotcha I saw Clay Hayes do that on a video w his wife. My gf would aggravate me trying to help ugh. Easier for me the way I do it. But that's a good idea
Old fart here
I get pass throughs on probably 80% of deer I shoot and at least a exit on about everything else . I use a old school set up and couldn't tell you what my FOC is. I shoot about 56 lbs at my 27" draw, shoot a 600-625 gr arrow with 175-200 gr broadhead on a Easton xx75 2020 aluminum. Broadheads are either 3 blade 200 gr VPA or zwickey Deltas . I think arrow flight is critical in penetration which I use bareshafting and 5" fletching to obtain, as is a reasonable arrow weight and a good COC head
Look into Ashby's studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can't handle that weight lol.
Quote from: Baylee on December 28, 2021, 09:45:39 PM
Look into Ashby's studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can't handle that weight lol.
I would be one of those grown men you speak of! Hasn't kept me from being pretty effective with my stickbows!!! I killed the red stag in my avatar with a 49# longbow.
Bisch
Quote from: Bisch on December 28, 2021, 11:59:35 PM
Quote from: Baylee on December 28, 2021, 09:45:39 PM
Look into Ashby's studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can't handle that weight lol.
I would be one of those grown men you speak of! Hasn't kept me from being pretty effective with my stickbows!!! I killed the red stag in my avatar with a 49# longbow.
Bisch
Cool. I saw a man at the mall one time with a purse? Lol
I hear stories like the OP....and just scratch my head.
Im blowing through animals with my 47# recurve, 553g 340 spine carbon arrow and 2 blade heads. I couldnt tell you my FOC. Not just a couple animals ...everything. Heck I shot an 800# moose a couple months ago, first shot 30-ish yds....complete pass thru with the fletch hung up on the off side broken rib with the arrow sticking straight out.
The moose does a couple 360's right there trying to get its nose on the tip of the arrow. It goes down. I run in as its right before dark, the animal struggles to its feet and I bury one 24" in front of the shoulder quartering to me. As the animal gets to its feet then turns broadside, I put another arrow right in the chest complete pass thru on the ground 20' past. The moose staggers 2 steps and rolls down into a creek DOA.
I bareshaft tune. I do have a long DL, 31" so I gain energy there but I bet my setup doesnt make 40KE.
I think a guy can take all of this FOC, KE and Momentum stuff the influencers preach and throw it in the trash. ( I will keep it respectful and not tell you what I really think)
Perfect arrow flight with a decent weight arrow and a tapered 2 blade head is a very effective arrow, IME.
Of the 12 animals I've shot in the last 2 years with this whimpy setup, moose, hogs, deer and Javelina, I only had a couple in the off side shoulder that didnt pass thru. Ive got 40 years of bowhunting to draw on, seen hundreds of animals die to an arrow- inc some big critters, apx 60 elk, water buff, etc.
OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;
Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
underspined arrow
Inefficient BH ( like a mech or short chisel point head)
BH curling/ breaking/ bending blades
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone
Heck, I shot a couple of med size hogs last summer with my 40#, 375g setup I use for 3d, just to see.....you guessed it pass thrus. ( So this doesnt get misinterpreted, I wouldnt hunt with that setup all the time, Im in the process of tuning a new hunt bow 52-55# limbs and a heavier spined Axis 300)
Bottom line, a perfect arrow with a 2 blade is an amazing killer....
Quote from: Baylee on December 28, 2021, 09:45:39 PM
Look into Ashby's studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can't handle that weight lol.
Obviously Ashby's information isn't all that there is. Note the op problem. Also we're not shooting Cape buffalo or hippo, whitetail deer, bear, etc don't need all that. His studies have caused more confusion. Even compound guys think they need certain weights to succeed. My daughter was blowing through deer with a lightweight compound and 85 gr to 100gr head. That's real world United States information. I've shot hundreds of deer and bear and never once stressed about foc never mind efoc. Just irrelevant on our game and thinking so shows someone's lack of real world experience imo. Take no offense to that, just consider what I'm getting at
I'll also add the the real men can't handle 55lbs. Obviously you might be a more recent trad guy? I'm thinking by the way you think. Anyway I bet most these guys know back when no one shot less than 55. In fact to be a PBS regular member you had to shoot at least 50lbs as that was considered a hunting weight. Op don't confuse the two. You don't need extreme weight just commenting on a thought here
I will try a different set up at least in the lower 48,your arrow looks to be a little too heavy for me and although I understand Asby studies there is a point of not return going too extreme.
I think your point weight is WAY too heavy. I've shot more than several deer with just plain unweighted carbons and they just blow through. In fairness I have a 29" draw but only about 50 pounds at 29". This high FOC thing can be overdone. I also think you have tuning issues. If you really want to get broadheads flying right, shoot them at 35 yards or so. It will really show you how they're flying.
Most of you are not comprehending the OPs 25.5" draw. You shouldn't have to be told the difference between a 31 inch draw and 25.5" draw is a lot even shooting the same poundage. Ashby's studies and reports are exactly the answer to the question asked. NOONE even those of you that have shot two animals lol have as much experience or have test as much on penetration as he did. Yes there is a lot of confusion on his writings, but that's mostly poor reading comprehension. You do not need the same setup for Cape buffalo as whitetails in Texas, but the principals are the same. You can maximize penetration of any bow at any weight. The way to maximize it is not "because you think so lol" the tests have been done the proof is there. If you feel like disputing the results you had best get busy, you have a lot of animals to kill and test the results to catch up to Ashby. Or do you expect we just take your word for it?
Likewise, amigo...
Quote from: beendare on December 29, 2021, 02:44:18 AM
OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;
Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
underspined arrow
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone
Beendare,
It has to be one of the above for me. My arrow is a 400 spine GT Traditions, and I believed it to be tuned well, I'm going to go back and redo my bareshaft. Because it was cut so much for me, I figured the spine lowered, but maybe not enough. I will have to try some 300 spines to see how they fly.
What do you mean by "low energy"?
I definitely hit some heavy bone on the pigs, just want to see it break them I guess.
Thanks for all the help fellas. I appreciate it.
Quote from: Matagorda on December 29, 2021, 10:19:20 AM
Quote from: beendare on December 29, 2021, 02:44:18 AM
OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;
Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
underspined arrow
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone
Beendare,
It has to be one of the above for me. My arrow is a 400 spine GT Traditions, and I believed it to be tuned well, I'm going to go back and redo my bareshaft. Because it was cut so much for me, I figured the spine lowered, but maybe not enough. I will have to try some 300 spines to see how they fly.
What do you mean by "low energy"?
I definitely hit some heavy bone on the pigs, just want to see it break them I guess.
Thanks for all the help fellas. I appreciate it.
Energy; Your short draw does create some challenges. You can compensate with a slightly heavier arrow like 12GPP and or more bow#s. You want to stick with 2 blades or tapered 3 blade COC heads as those penetrate effortlessly. I don't like the 3 to 1 ratio heads as the tips bend easier. I like the straight 2 blade Magnus Stinger or $5 German Jaeger heads- both good steel that I have touched up and reused.
In your case, you drank the Koolaid on your arrow build. Did you know Ashby's FOC stuff is not proven with arrows but with rubber bands and soda straws? In fact this is what he uses in his seminars. ( its on Youtube)
There are some sharp physics guys on some of the archery sites like AT and Trad Talk that have blown huge holes in the Ashby theories. I think it was the physics guys on the UC Berkeley Archery club that originally called him on his FOC white paper some 25 or so years ago- it defies the laws of physics- though he kept up doing the rubber band thing- a much different system than a bowstring that puts max energy into that arrow instantly.
Anyway, MY TAKE is to setup a bow that you can easily draw, hold and aim- whatever poundage that is. Guys have been killing animals with an average bow-arrow setup for centuries. A bow heavier than you can hold at FD and aim, one where you are snap shooting and have an inconsistent DL can give you erratic arrow flight- a penetration killer.
Ive shot with snap shooters at 3D tourneys, DL varies by an inch and God bless them- shoot whatever makes you happy.....but this technique is the most inconsistent and least accurate.
Most guys are good with 9-11GPP +/- but a short draw guy like yourself benefits from 12GPP or so. THEN, bare shaft tune that setup for perfect arrow flight. I periodically shoot a bareshaft in practice as a form check.
I'm sure there are guys chuckling that Im hunting with a whimpy 47# bow. Those Uukha limbs are rocket ships, smooth and whisper quiet. I bet there are some 55#-60# guys not getting the same speeds with my arrow.
I'm 6'3" 240 and can still bench 225#. I can shoot a 70# recurve...but I don't because I cannot hold a consistent DL with it on a 3d course and At 64 I don't want the shoulder problems. I can shoot a whole field round with that bow...and draw it to perfect anchor easily after sitting for 4 hours in a hide. So snicker away, but it works for me....and I have the moose, hog and Coues deer in my freezer to prove it! Grin
.
Has to be something w your arrow set up. I used to shoot low to mid 50# and have shot thru more than one Moose.
I'm waiting for shoulder surgery now. I managed to shoot thru two does this year and shattered the opposite leg just above the elbow joint on a third w only 40# @ 26" draw w a mouth tab. Two blade single bevel on two passthrus. 3 blade on the other.
I'm at 560gr total arrow weight w 210 gr up front. 3" four fletch. Carbon arrow 29% FOC. Also Ranch Fairy disciple.
OOPS!
I changed FOC. Was looking at wrong set up on my list!
[quote
In your case, you drank the Koolaid on your arrow build. Did you know Ashby's FOC stuff is not proven with arrows but with rubber bands and soda straws? In fact this is what he uses in his seminars. ( its on Youtube)
[/quote]
Well that's a pretty good example of why forums can be a poor place to ask for advice. That is one of the most insane and uninformed statements I've seen in quite some time. Ashby's studies were done with real live animals and recently rifle shot culled animals. Do you really expect him to trot a full grown Cape buffalo on stage at a seminar to show you penetration tests? Apparently another opinion by someone that hasn't read the studies, or read them and has no comprehension of what he's read.
And no, no one has disproven the tests, that's more fabricated nonsense.
The OP is looking for help with her set up at her draw weight. If you need to be told your 30plus inch draw weight is not relevant to her 25.5" draw you don't know enough to make a comment about either lol. Apples to oranges comparisons are less than useless. Comparing what someone did with a compound is equally useless. A specific draw weight a specific draw length that is the problem. The solution is not what someone with a 6" longer draw thinks or someone that makes up gibberish thinks lol. There's already proven ways to increase penetration period. Anyone's lack of comprehension of the material is not relevant to the problem
All of us have the setup we believe in, whether it is 450 550 or 750 grains, but laying that aside, your arrow is only going to be as good as the business end. Assuming you have a well tuned arrow, the broadhead has got to be sharp sharp sharp! If not, no matter how good your setup is, it will be compromised.
Yup! ^^^
Right now your at just a ted under 14 gr per #. I would listen to Beendare and go 12. With the heads he suggested.
I saw African spears with a huge weight on the back end of the spear. I think they found it was the way to gain penetration. Hard to control on an arrow. Interesting they didnt have the extra weight up front. The rear weight drove the spear thru. Beendare is doint what you want to do. copy as as best you can.
I shoot 50# at 28 inches I may not pull all 0f 28 so im probably shooting 49 . My arrows are 500 grains total with a 150gr. WW. I went to Africa last summer with this set up and killed 5 animals a warthog,2 Gemsbok, a big Kudu and a Zebra these are all big animals I didnt get any pass throughs or complete penetration and only one animal traveled very far the rest were down in sight (50yds). All my arrows hit the off shoulder and penetration stopped It would with any bow weight or arrow. I think your head and total weight are too heavy you not only need weight but you need velocity for more penetration I almost think velocity is more important look how componders shoot through animals with ultra light arrows, crossbows too. 9 to 10 grains per lb. works great
Lots of conversations going on in this thread. Here is my experience a year into switching to a lighter bow weight and HEAVY arrows. I switched my setup this season to the following. I went from shooting and hunting with a 53-54# BOW at my draw length (30.5") to a 41# bow at 30". It's holding 44# at full draw. I shoot wooden arrows with 300 up front. FOC is 20%. My arrows weigh from 770 to 810 grains depending upon each dozen of them. I took two whitetails with the setup this fall. Complete pass through on the first with the arrow buried 6-8 inches in the ground. Ten yard shot. 780 grain arrow. The second doe was shot at seventeen yards. The arrow broke the humerus bone on impact and penetrated to the twenty inch mark on the shaft. She fell dead within 35 yards of impact. 770 grain arrow. Both deer were quartering or slightly quartering to me when shot. I gave up trajectory that I will never need based on the shots I am willing to take (25 yards and under) while hunting. My arrows are well tuned to my bow, and I don't notice any greater difficulty in shooting this setup at 25 yards and under than when I was shooting 600 grain arrows out of the 53-54# setup. Simple laws of physics have proven that weight is the biggest determining factor for momentum. Especially when you are shooting gear that will not reach 200 FPS. The heavy setup works. If you like lighter arrows, use lighter arrows. Lighter arrows and setups have killed a lot of stuff. I am not knocking anyone for what they shoot. For me, I am a heavy arrow convert.
Just a thought, but is there any difference in how many pass throughs you get, and how you hunt? Just wondering if hunting from a tree stand gives you more pass throughs with arrow leaving via a path of less resistance... IE lower with less heavy bone?
Mata,
I have a bunch of old Beman carbon arrows cut short they gave me when I used to shoot for them. You can have them to experiment with if you like, just ping me and they are yours. I can no longer shoot them.
Regarding setups;
Thankfully, I have many experienced bowhunter friends to share information with. Bowhunters that have killed hundreds of animals, Top pro tournament guys like the ex Montana state champ, a couple guys have the NA slam, a couple guys own archery shops.
Its worth mentioning that none of these guys shoots massive FOC. Not a one. Most shoot an avg weight arrow tuned to perfection as we have all come to the same conclusion- it works!
Massive FOC does not make arrows fly further than another arrow of the same weight as Ashby claimed, it defies the laws of physics. I will put up big money that Sir Isaac Newton was right on that one-grin.
In the end, shoot what works for you.... But as myself and some of the guys above attest to...you don't need to go way out on the end of the spectrum with your arrow, IME it actually causes problems with arrow flight.
.
I second Beendare again. 12 grains per # small diameter arrow sharp 2 blade no heavy front of center. I have seen a couple hundred die by my arrow as well. Up to Buff. Not a fan of heavy FOC.
Mata,
I didn't address your questions in my earlier post, only stated what I have been shooting. I can tell that you have read thoroughly the studies done by Dr. Ashby and seem to understand the principles fairly soundly. If your arrows are well tuned to your bow, I would not worry about getting complete pass throughs. Your broadheads are getting to the vitals and a heavier arrow will out penetrate a 10-12 gpp arrow every time, if and only if, you have a well tuned arrow and a scary sharp, broadhead with high structural integrity. Speaking of structural integrity, I would bet that everyone posting on this thread shoots a high structural integrity broadhead. Dr. Ashby never stated that lighter setups don't work. His research just suggests that there is a better way. Unless you hit the scapula or ball joint, lighter set ups will work every time on broadside and quartering away shot angles. I would be willing to guess that you chose the heavy arrow path for the same reason that I did. Not because 10-12 Gpp setups don't work. They do, especially on whitetails. I hate losing animals. Animals move when they are shot at. I take quartering to me shots on unalerted animals. I witnessed three different kills last year (broadside shot angles) that the deer moved a lot between the release and impact of the arrow (Two were mine). All three animals were killed with a 11-12 gpp setup. The arrows did not have to deal with anything other than rib bones and got the job done. The more I researched, the more I became convinced that a heavy arrow would give me more margin for error when shooting at live animals. So far, that has played out. Every shot isn't going to be a pass through. Especially when animals are often in motion as the arrow is going through them. Keep in mind, that Dr. Ashby continually states to shoot the heaviest arrow that you can live with the trajectory of.
Ashby and Ranch Fairy also advocate the plan "B" theory when a hit is bad more mass = more penetration and could make the difference between loss and recovery.
I was shocked a while back watching a hunting video where the "celebrity" bowhunter bounced a "flapper" type broadhead off the rib cage of a B&C class Whitetail.