Hello All!
I recently bought a lightly used Samick Sage with 20# limbs. I've loads of questions regarding everything from point of aim to hunting techniques. Luckily, I got the bow from a friend who is a fairly accomplished traditional archer. He gave me an hour or so of instruction and now I'm shooting fairly tight groups 8-10 yards. I'm a lefty and the arrows are grouping about 10" high and 6" right using the area of the front of the rest as my reference point. I've got a pair of 45# limbs incoming which I'll use for hunting. I have 5 field point aluminum 29" arrows that came with the bow so I'll definitely be buying some more arrows and need advice on on what would be best and affordable. I was thinking that I could use the same arrows for both the 20 and 45# limbs but perhaps I'm wrong about this? I know that I'm jumping around topics, but I just wanted to give an idea of the vast amount of learning and information that I'm searching for. I'm pretty sure that most if not all of my questions have been answered here already. Can anyone point me towards some relevant threads or tutorials where I can start? I'm very happy to be part of this great community! Thanks to all, Rich
Rich welcome to the gang !!! My first thought is you need to learn how to use the search function...try looking for threads that cover tuning...you will be able to answer a lot of your questions that way... :thumbsup:
You can go to the main boards then scroll down to topic archives and check the how to thread...lots of good stuff...
Hi Don, thanks for the suggestion. A big part of the problem is that I don't know what I don't know :dunno:
Also I'm viewing the forums on a android phone which isn't really the best method to say the least. Of course I will follow your advice, search and generally poke around and see what I can learn. However, what I'm hoping for is a more concise tutorial or articles or perhaps some well established beginer threads.
Highly unlikely that you'll be able to use the same arrows for both bows. Given the light weight of your current limbs, I'd guess the arrows you have are just too stiff. Arrows hitting right for a left hand shooter is an indiation/confirmation that the spine is too stiff . Before you buy more arrows, try the arrows you currently hgave on the 45# limbs you'll be getting. Arrows hitting high means you just need to hold your reference point lower.
Quote from: Orion on December 16, 2021, 02:28:27 PM
Highly unlikely that you'll be able to use the same arrows for both bows. Given the light weight of your current limbs, I'd guess the arrows you have are just too stiff. Arrows hitting right for a left hand shooter is an indiation/confirmation that the spine is too stiff . Before you buy more arrows, try the arrows you currently hgave on the 45# limbs you'll be getting. Arrows hitting high means you just need to hold your reference point lower.
Thanks, that's some actionable information!
I'm already at the lower left corner and I'm hitting the top center smaller circle. Maybe I need to change my references point on the bow?
If you want to shoot gap rather than instinctive, I suggest you find some old threads on here that explainhow it's done. Most gap shooters use the tip of the arrow placed at a certain gap (under) the target(for most shot distances). If you use the riser shelf, it will have to be quite a bit lower than your intgended target.
Thank you sir.
Do you know your eye dominance?
YouTube videos are also a great resource.
Quote from: Bowguy67 on December 16, 2021, 08:26:33 PM
Do you know your eye dominance?
Yep. I'm a lefty, hand and eye.
do you want to shoot gap? I would personally recommend it, and it's what you are doing now it sounds like. My suggestions would be the following:
- shoot 3 under, and I would probably go to a fixed crawl about 3/4" below the arrow - but you can adjust this to make your "point on" distance what you like. I personally like a 25 yard point on
- put a rest on your sage - this will allow you to raise your knocking point so that your string grip is still centered and close to where you bows limbs will be tillered for.
- figure out your required arrow spine - your different weight limbs will have different spine requirements. your draw length, arrow length, and point weight will also affect this. if your hunting you'll want those heavier 45 lb limbs for anything like deer. if your going after rabbits, etc the 20 lb will be just fine. Shoot the weight your comfortable with, with a mind on form.
form suggestions: be aware of your bow hand and make a conscious effort to "push" to the target. It's hard to explain I suppose but it's as if you were reaching out and touching the target and pushing on it.
I would shoot some at a few yards without aiming and work on feeling a clean release - no plucking and Good back tension.
post some pics in the form section and they can have a look at how your form works. Video too and people can dissect any issues your having.
I see your in Florida, i'm sure some of the members would love to have you shoot with them.
I hope you are involved with the Traditional Bowhunters of Florida. It is a jam up organization that sponsors a couple of really good 3D events each year. More importantly, you will meet a lot of really experienced and helpful people who can help you a lot. Watch for the shoot notices for the state shoot coming up in March. I hope to see you there. It is worth the trip.
First off don't get ahead of yourself, all the technical stuff is helpfull more after you get comfortable with your shooting alinement and or form, get that right first, arrow basics as far as spine & draw length for specific draw weight can be found online and on the back of the arrow package, most have basic charts on them. You will have to experiment a little on 3 under or split finger, and aiming methods but have fun with it and do what feels comfortable to you. Proper arrows are important, it will keep on track better than shooting arrows that are way off on spine and weight. Have fun with it and learn the basics first, usually that's what we all come back to anyway to improve. Mostly it's suppose to be fun,JMHO.
Quote from: H1tman7 on December 17, 2021, 10:20:04 AM
do you want to shoot gap? I would personally recommend it, and it's what you are doing now it sounds like. My suggestions would be the following:
- shoot 3 under, and I would probably go to a fixed crawl about 3/4" below the arrow - but you can adjust this to make your "point on" distance what you like. I personally like a 25 yard point on
- put a rest on your sage - this will allow you to raise your knocking point so that your string grip is still centered and close to where you bows limbs will be tillered for.
- figure out your required arrow spine - your different weight limbs will have different spine requirements. your draw length, arrow length, and point weight will also affect this. if your hunting you'll want those heavier 45 lb limbs for anything like deer. if your going after rabbits, etc the 20 lb will be just fine. Shoot the weight your comfortable with, with a mind on form.
form suggestions: be aware of your bow hand and make a conscious effort to "push" to the target. It's hard to explain I suppose but it's as if you were reaching out and touching the target and pushing on it.
I would shoot some at a few yards without aiming and work on feeling a clean release - no plucking and Good back tension.
post some pics in the form section and they can have a look at how your form works. Video too and people can dissect any issues your having.
I see your in Florida, i'm sure some of the members would love to have you shoot with them.
Hi Andrew, thanks for helping me out, I'm super green and often need to do a search for a term you guys are using... Gap shooting I think, is the ticket for me. Instinctive is like throwing a ball at a target, correct? I've never been at all good at that. If it has sights that's a very different story for me. Fixed crawl? I found this but I'm still not exactly clear. Here's the link:
http://bearsbutt.com/2016/05/12/fixed-crawl-method-of-shooting-a-traditional-bow/
Am I correct in understanding that the arrow is nocked on the nock point but I'd place my fingers below the the nocked arrow?
You said to put a rest on my Sage. Is that opposed to a bare shelf? If so, I believe that the guy I bought it from already installed one. It's some soft fuzzy material that's on the shelf as well as the "wall" that the shelf is on. Or are you referring to a different type of rest? Thanks again for your help! I'll keep plodding along learning what I can...
Quote from: saburai on December 16, 2021, 11:43:30 PM
Quote from: Bowguy67 on December 16, 2021, 08:26:33 PM
Do you know your eye dominance?
Yep. I'm a lefty, hand and eye.
Ok it becomes sketchy when you shoot with the incorrect eye that can throw shots sideways. Lots of form things could be doing it. Why don't you post video
Quote from: Stuart on December 16, 2021, 08:35:28 PM
YouTube videos are also a great resource.
Yes and absolutely no. As a new guy he'd not know who to take advice from. You can't just hope the guy you're watching is correct. You tube allows anyone to put up videos
Quote from: Sam McMichael on December 17, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
I hope you are involved with the Traditional Bowhunters of Florida. It is a jam up organization that sponsors a couple of really good 3D events each year. More importantly, you will meet a lot of really experienced and helpful people who can help you a lot. Watch for the shoot notices for the state shoot coming up in March. I hope to see you there. It is worth the trip.
Thanks Sam! I hope to meet you there as well.
The guy who sold it to me competes in the 3D shoots and referred me to them and here as well. I'm excited, but a bit overwhelmed too. It seems like I've got quite a lot to learn before I can even buy some arrows...
Quote from: Bowguy67 on December 17, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
Quote from: Stuart on December 16, 2021, 08:35:28 PM
YouTube videos are also a great resource.
Yes and absolutely no. As a new guy he'd not know who to take advice from. You can't just hope the guy you're watching is correct. You tube allows anyone to put up videos
That is very true and not just videos. If you've got a working knowledge of a subject and are looking for more information then it's easy enough to separate the legitimate from the BS. However, if you're still wet behind the ears? Not so much...
Here it is:
And this is the arrow rest:
Welcome....you should acquire much good advice and support here on Trad Gang.
:shaka: thanks friend!
What you are showing in your photo is indeed an arrow rest, or more specifically, a shelf rest. This means that the arrow rests on a shelf carved out in the process of making the bow. I believe what the earlier post was referring to is an elevated rest. Sometimes a bow has a threaded hole for mounting a rest, but I can't see if yours does or not, because the area where the hole would be is covered by your strike plate, which in your case appears to be made out of the same material as your arrow rest. Other times, an elevated rest is stuck onto the strike plate (minus covering), usually with a peel-off adhesive that comes with the rest.
Whether you really need an elevated rest is the question. Many people, including me, use a fixed crawl on their hunting bows without an elevated rest. An even more basic question is whether you should use a fixed crawl at all right now. My recommendation would be to get used to shooting the bow and learn good shooting form without a fixed crawl, and then put one on later if you still want to. I would guess that less than 10% of traditional bowhunters use a fixed crawl, not because there's anything wrong with it, but just because they have learned to hunt without using one and they don't see any need to change. Same thing with an elevated rest.
Thank you sir. I'm still a bit foggy on exactly what a "fixed crawl" is...
saburai
Welcome to the Gang. Good advice from all above posts. Absolutely recommend the TBOF and
North Florida Archers.
Good Luck....... :archer2:
Deno
Quote from: saburai on December 17, 2021, 11:20:59 PM
Thank you sir. I'm still a bit foggy on exactly what a "fixed crawl" is...
This is the fixed crawl on my hunting bow:
[attachment=1,msg2985136]
The orange nock is the top nock. The black nock that extends for about 3/4" is the lower nock. The arrow goes between the two nocks, and the string is held below the lower fixed crawl nock. The shooter draws the bow to his normal anchor, which positions the arrow closer to the eye than it would be using normal nocks. The closer the arrow is to the eye, the closer the point-on distance is to the shooter.
The point on distance is the distance where the point of the arrow can be placed on the spot to be hit when gap shooting, rather than above or below the spot to be hit. When using a fixed crawl, the point on is set right in the middle of the distance the shooter expects to shoot when hunting. I construct my fixed crawl so my point on is 20 yards, giving me good hunting accuracy from 15-25 yards. This enables me to be more accurate and to think less about aiming when hunting.
The downsides of using a fixed crawl are that the bow must be held upright, or at least close to upright, when hunting. In certain hunting situations this could be limiting, when a cant is needed to shoot under limbs or through a hole in bushes, etc. The fixed crawl is not allowed in most tournaments, and would be of only limited use there anyway, as many shots are outside the 15-25 yard optimal range. It is likely that you will be offered a friend's bow to shoot, or want to shoot a bow for sale somewhere, and it won't have a fixed crawl, making those situations awkward unless you also are comfortable shooting without a fixed crawl. It's kind of like only learning to drive with an automatic transmission; it limits the driver's options.
I only shoot my hunting bow with a fixed crawl, in an effort to avoid confusing myself in a hunting situation (I confuse easily). I only shoot my target bow with normal nocks, because I like to shoot in tournaments and see very little use for a fixed crawl when target shooting anyway.
Thanks David!
My new 45# limbs arrived today!
The 20# limbs that I bought the bow with have some black thin foam tape where the string contacts the bow. Is it for sound mitigation? Is it recommended? Thanks all!
Can anyone offer any insight on the foam tape? Thanks all!
The only purpose of the pads on the limb tips is noise reduction. There is a type of noise called limb slap that is made when a recurve string hits the part of the limb where there is contact between the string and the limb. This only applies to recurves, because there is no contact between the string and the limbs of a longbow other than at the string nocks. This noise can be reduced by not waxing the part of the string that contacts the limbs. It can also be reduced by applying material such as soft sided Velcro or foam tape in your case to the limbs. This is controversial, because it is thought by some people and bowyers that it might encourage limb twist. I don't personally apply tape to my limbs to reduce noise, but I wouldn't remove it either if it was put there by the bowyer. It's probably not a big deal either way, but i don't like excess junk on my bow. If I did, I would probably be shooting the type of bow whose name may not be spoken here🙈
Thanks again David!
Dominant eye shocker!
I've been shooting since starting as a seven year old with a Crossman 760 .177 pelet gun and progressing to firearms as I got a bit older. I played around a bit with bows and slingshots but never really seriously. Lefthand, left eye. Eventually defensive/fighting practice with pistol and rifle. Thirty, maybe more years ago I did the eye dominance test. Lefthanded and left eyed... Yesterday while reading the beginer article here, sitting on the couch, I checked my eye dominance. I was shocked to find out that I'm not left eyed any longer! I'm sixty and I've had more than my share of injuries of all types including trips to the hospital to have metal bits removed from one eye or the other from various mishaps, mainly from working on and under vehicles. More than one head injury as well and probably a bunch of TBI's too... In any case, for whatever reason, I'm now a lefty with a right eye dominant situation. IMHO it's too late in the game to try to switch to shooting a bow right handed. I've got some physical difficulties that pretty much rule it out...
Is there anything that I can do to adapt to the situation?
Watch The Push on YouTube and buy the online course. It'll help explain a lot if you are green.
Yes! Learn to shoot both right handed and left handed, and then you won't worry about it anymore. Plus, your body will get a more balanced workout. Eye dominance is something that can be controlled. For example, I am right eye dominant, and I realize when I shoot left handed, my right eye might try to take over aiming the shot. I need to be alert to that and squint my right eye if necessary to help my left eye stay in control.
Thank you gentlemen!
So I should be ok with just squinting my right eye as if I were aiming a rifle, great news! In regards to "The Push", I found a 2+ hour trad bow hunting movie on YouTube, is that what you were referring to?
Morning gentlemen!
I found "The Push" website as well as the YouTube channel and I'll investigate both, thank you for the resource. I do need to buy at least a few field point arrows for the 20# limbs so I can at least get started practicing. However, other than the 28 - 30 inch (depending on where I anchor), I don't know what to buy. From what I've learned here, I think carbon is the most consistent so that would be the best choice to remove equipment error and help me work on my form and accuracy. Can someone please recommend a spine and brand? I'd really like to get 3-6 arrows in the next day or two so I can shoot some over the holiday. There's a place in Ocala that I might be able to use as a local source. If not, perhaps some online store will offer expedited shipping and of course there's always Amazon Prime. Thanks again for all the help!
Quote from: Pmringer on December 21, 2021, 08:02:29 PM
Watch The Push on YouTube and buy the online course. It'll help explain a lot if you are green.
Thanks Patrick!
He's got quite a few different course offerings. Which one do you suggest for a green horn like me?
Look up and listen to some of Tom Clum's teachings. An anchor point shouldnt be a random place you choose although thats what most of us do. If shooting with correct back tension the place your shoulder blade bottoms out is your draw length length anything past that you are over drawing using your shoulder and bicep muscle. In one of his seminars on YouTube you shows how to find your natrual true anchor.
Quote from: bowmaster12 on December 23, 2021, 11:37:23 AM
Look up and listen to some of Tom Clum's teachings. An anchor point shouldnt be a random place you choose although thats what most of us do. If shooting with correct back tension the place your shoulder blade bottoms out is your draw length length anything past that you are over drawing using your shoulder and bicep muscle. In one of his seminars on YouTube you shows how to find your natrual true anchor.
Thanks Jesse! More good advice! Any recommendations for a couple of three arrows so I can get some shot practice in?
For 20 lb limbs i wouldnt worry much about arrows. If you know anyone that shoots they might have a bunchbof old arrows laying around. Dont worry about where your arrows are hitting or how they are flying and just focus on form. Worry about getting the perfect arrows later with the new limbs once you have a decent form figured out. Master of the bare bow dvds are a great starting resource
Quote from: bowmaster12 on December 23, 2021, 12:50:05 PM
For 20 lb limbs i wouldnt worry much about arrows. If you know anyone that shoots they might have a bunchbof old arrows laying around. Dont worry about where your arrows are hitting or how they are flying and just focus on form. Worry about getting the perfect arrows later with the new limbs once you have a decent form figured out. Master of the bare bow dvds are a great starting resource
Thanks again!
At 7 - 10 yards, a typical "good" group is like the attached picture. I'm aiming for the lower left corner of the target. In one of the previous replies, post #4 Orian suggested that the arrows hitting to the right is an indication that they're too stiff. Unfortunately, I've got no idea what spine they are. they are aluminum with pressed or bonded field points. I do have a powder scale so if it'd help, I can weigh the arrows. The nocks are messed up on them as well and don't correspond to the cock feather. I'm assuming that that might screw up the trajectory as well. Looking at the spine charts, I've not found any that go down to 20#. I was thinking that maybe I should get three 29" 400 spine carbon arrows with 125-150 grain field points and use that as a base line for working up the correct combination for training arrows for my 20# limbs. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
I measured my draw using a clothespin on an arrow. I used my knuckle on my cheek bone as a stop that felt right. I measured actual draw weight with a digital fish scale. It's 29# @ 29.25"
Get on YouTube and look at the Push Archery Videos they are a good resource. The main thing is just have fun!
Quote from: huntingcop on December 23, 2021, 09:29:20 PM
Get on YouTube and look at the Push Archery Videos they are a good resource. The main thing is just have fun!
Doing this now. Thanks!
My 2 cents.
Consistent anchor and form is critical and this point because you will begin to develop muscle memory. Buy a clicker for draw length and anchor to a solid point on your face.
You also need arrows tuned to your bow, you will never achieve accuracy if your arrows don't fly properly. Call three rivers, kustom king or any number of traditional retailers on this forum and start your journey with the proper tools to build your skill.
Thank you sir!
.400 spine shafts would be appropriate for a 55-60# bow at your 29" draw. You should be looking for .800 for those 20# limbs and maybe .600 for the 45#.
Quote from: mahantango on December 26, 2021, 11:16:05 AM
.400 spine shafts would be appropriate for a 55-60# bow at your 29" draw. You should be looking for .800 for those 20# limbs and maybe .600 for the 45#.
Thanks! On Friday I was in Bronson FL for some business. After I was finished, I called a archery shop in Chiefland called "The Deer Camp" to confirm that they were open and had a good selection of carbon arrows suited for my purpose. They confirmed both and that they were knowledgeable about traditional archery as well. The woman who helped me was friendly and seemed like she knew what she was doing. I had my bow with me and although I'd previously checked my draw length, she offered to check it again. She measured the same as I did, 29.25". Measured by a accurate digital fish scale at 29.25" my 20# limbs actually come in at 29#. She suggested some GT traditional CF arrows at a 500 spine weight based on the chart above the arrow display. She cut them down to 29.75, installed the inserts and supplied 125 grain field points. When I told her where my arrows were grouping, high and to the right (I'm a lefty), she suggested that I use a higher anchor point to bring them down and that it was probably my (lack of good)form that was causing the POI error... A bit later today, I'll swap my limbs for the 45# ones and get an accurate measurement of what they are at my draw. If they're anything like the 20# rated ones they'll be closer to 50#+. Perhaps the 500 spine arrows will be suitable for that weight... I'll add that while the women at The Deer Camp stated that they were knowledgeable about traditional archery, they had a total of two recurve bows on display and probably 50-75 compound bows and crossbows...
In any case, I'm about to see if I can't watch a least half of "The Push" right now.
I watched the push, very informative and enjoyable as well. I've also been watching some of Tom Clum's YouTube videos, very helpful as well. It's pretty obvious that I need to find a local traditional archery club and/or a coach to help me with form and tuning. I sent an email to the contact person for TBOF since they don't have any current info on upcoming events. If anyone here could help me with any leads that'd be great! I'm in the Williston/Bronson area of Florida not too far from Gainesville and Ocala.