I'm in discussion with our wildlife agency about having a traditional-only or primitive-only tag. While I am aware of a few states that offer flintlock-only seasons, is anybody aware of states that have either seasons, tags or special hunts that have traditional archery (longbow or recurve only) as a method of take restriction?
We couldn't be so lucky..
My friend lives in Oklahoma and they either have primitive only seasons or areas. I can't remember but look to that state
Some public land in Okla is shotgun with pellets and archery,not aware of primitive only except for traditional draw hunt at McAlester ammunition plant
Terry it may be, I don't recall what she told me but that's the only place has anything I'm aware of
John, here is my view on the subject. In theory a primitive season sounds great. The reality is if you have an early or special season to hunt. Folks will buy a recurve and be out there just because they can
They may or may not commit to the time it takes to become proficient. Also, what really would scare me is what if they declare archery season only open to modern bows or ARROW LAUNCHING DEVICES. Just another way to look at it.
I don't think it's necessary.
We are all hunters, no matter the choice of weapon, and we all need to get along for the better of all hunting seasons..
Trad guys are the minority of hunters.
I myself and several others only hunt with stick bows, regardless of the season weapon rules.
We have archery only season but not a traditional only season. I don't know if any of the gov't regulated areas do or not, but I don't think so. It would be nice, though.
I only see one benefit to such a season, fewer hunters in the woods, similar to what it was before compounds became the rage. But then would we be restricted to only that season? Just don't think it is a big sell.
The only traditional archery only season (hunt) that I know of is McAlester Ammunition Plant....but its a draw hunt.
Problem becomes; when is the season? Before the regular archery? After? Between archery and gun? Do you lose days in archery and/or gun? If they did, I'd bet good money that guys would see another opportunity and jump into a single string. Few years in, same ol' crowds.
Quote from: Roy from Pa on December 16, 2021, 03:01:33 PM
I don't think it's necessary.
We are all hunters, no matter the choice of weapon, and we all need to get along for the better of all hunting seasons..
Trad guys are the minority of hunters.
I myself and several others only hunt with stick bows, regardless of the season weapon rules.
Here as well. In fact our property we stay archery only throughout the entire deer season. My partners are compound hunters and I'm using a single string. I have no angst regarding their bow choice nor they mine.
Besides the reasons mentioned above, I pride myself in carrying around my stick bow, ESPECIALLY when everyone else is toting something different. In Wisconsin, we can bow hunt from mid-September to the end of January and I would hate to lose that long hunting season because we start segregating seasons into specific weapon type, and I think designating a traditional-only hunt could open the door to that. Other states are probably different. We do have specific rifle and muzzle-loader seasons, but you can always carry a bow... and I like that!
The MCAAP hunt is in Oklahoma but it's federal not state.
We had a special antelope season in ND and could just buy the license over the counter then we had a bad winter kill and they closed all antelope hunting for a number of years when it reopened we didnt get our special bow license back we can still hunt but have to draw a license on a lottery with the gun hunters . I think it had something to do with trophy antelope getting shot at 80 and 100 yds with range finders and release aids and it was happening quite often.
Archery seasons have really been diluted here with the inclusion of cross guns which seem to be in the majority over even compounds.
Having hunted McAllister in Ok. A few times, the comment Merclineman made about people buying trad gear couldn't be more true. I've never seen more people with pawnshop bows and mis matched equipment in my life. They get drawn and run out and buy or borrow a bow that allows them to hunt their 2-3 days . Id hate to see the wound rate there.
I'd love to see a trad only area or season dates but don't see that ever happening, or not here anyway
I'm pretty sure there are some traditional only areas/seasons in Oregon. I could be wrong though. Desert mule deer area maybe? Seems like I heard something about that on the tradquest podcast.
Quick search yielded this.
https://www.tradarcheryoregon.com/odfw-hunting-news
While I think it sounds very appealing to a lot of us, stop and think about the results of such a separation. You're putting a bigger wedge between competing groups for a resource and we have a very small percentage of all hunters. How do you separate a season out. Do we get the front end or back end of a season? Game departments trying to manage deer herd populations are not going to give us a prime time. Most of us already have a long season, mine is 4 months I can hunt with my longbow, even mixed in with youth season, rifle season, antlerless season, late season muzzleloader. I'm probably spoiled because I hunt my own property with no interference except for a couple days my neighbor's son hunts during rifle season. Most of us are a bit more dedicated than the average hunter and we'll seek out harder to reach areas or still hunt hard late in the season when most guys are sitting home.
I hunt from early October thru first week of January in Texas with recurve or longbow.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
Maryland has added a Primitive season but it's in February .
Most states seperste blackpowder and rifle seasons. I could
Make a very good argument that the disparaging technology allowed in archery only seasons could easily be just as justified. When I listen to stickbow podcasts with compound guys claiming to make shots at 149 yards with a bow? Not to mention the influx of crossbows. It's a very easy argument to make. Most are to apathetic to make it however.
Keefer, what equipment is allowed in Maryland's primitive season ?
I've always been against a trad only season.
Every compound and X-gun toting hunter you know will be ordering a Sage just to take part. The day after season ends will be the last time they touch it until next year.
I only hunt with stickbows. I only hunt with other stickbow hunters. I already have my traditional only season! :)
I hunt with a longbow only, don't matter the season, don't care what the next hunter does or uses, even if I'm hunting with them. Just my 2cents.
What I could see happening is keep splitting the seasons, and pretty soon you have a week for tradbow hunting...
Right now I can hunt with my longbow Sep 15 thru Jan 15 (gotta buy a gun tag for the 11 days in Nov.) and I'm ok with that.
Completely and unequivocally against traditional archery seasons for the sake of giving traditional bowhunters their own time and/or place.
1. Doing that would establish a precedent for any other special interest weapons group to have 'their' exclusive season. I shouldn't have to list all the potentials, but some might be handguns, shoulder-bows, flinters and so on.
2. There would be an immediate influx of people toting entry-level 'qualifying' archery tackle so they could hunt the traditional season or location. I don't blame them, but it's an unintended consequence.
3. Any special season which is seen as taking away time or opportunities from other hunters will meet huge resistance and resentment from those hunters. Would we give up 7 days in November so the hardcore (name your group) could own the woods?
The Ohio example: We can bowhunt deer from late Sept into early February without interruption. How would a 'traditional only' season benefit us beyond forcing others to stay home? The only legit way to add in a traditional archery season here would be before or after the already-established general archery season. Ohio (the state) isn't going to take away any hunting opportunities from others unless it is a) necessary in terms of deer management, or b) profitable to the state in terms of revenue. Show the state proof of 'a' and 'b'....in numbers great enough to matter...and they'll maybe listen. Probably not. Traditional-only seasons (proposals) would be scrutinized hard and viewed as a potential Pandora's Box.
Lest you think I'm a heretic....I'd love to have the woods all to myself for a period. Maybe in certain states and with certain species it has a chance to happen. I would only support it if it made sense from a management perspective and didn't have the appearance of giving us a cub stake season....if you follow that analogy. I'm a bowhunter pure and simple, and I've never wanted to be segregated or differentiated from others because of my bow.
I agree with Kevin totally.
Here in WV they have established a "Heritage Season" It comes in after all other big game seasons have closed. It starts AFTER the first of the year. You have to buy next years license early as our license goes from Jan 1st to December 31st. Personally I think it's a ploy to hopefully have more people buy their license earlier. They also encourage sportsman to buy their license before the year ends by holding raffles with prices which include Lifetime hunting license. Free stays at State owned lodges etc.
The four-day Mountaineer Heritage season will allow primitive weapons enthusiasts to continue big-game hunting into 2021. The season will be open to hunters who use flintlock or caplock rifles, recurve bows or longbows. The season runs from Jan. 14-17.
We had a traditional only season at one time, we got rid of it.
Pennsylvania and Maryland have primitive seasons - FYI
As usual, Mr. Dill nailed it. A more reasonable and thoughtful fellow I've never "met".
As a retired wildlife manager; IN, KS, MO, and retired in KY I fielded such queries over nearly a 30-year career. To answer the OP's question, I recall Idaho had a two-week traditional-only season for some time. I don't know if it is still in place or how wide-spread or popular it was.
I do not like to split the ranks. I define the ranks as all hunters. Like others wrote above, I can hunt with my recurves from the 1st Sat. in September through Martin Luther King day in January. I hunt private land because there is so very little public land in my state, or any state I've ever lived. The only other people I see during the bow season are my son, daughter, and son-in-law. What folks are using on the farms adjacent or near me is not my concern.
Finally, I would be very concerned that a traditional only season would highlight the relative unpopularity of our style of hunting and make us more irrelevant to some folks than we already are.
Personally, I would not hunt in a traditional-only season on principle.
I have never seen a trad only season in my 67 years in idaho...if there was it was a well kept secret :dunno:
There were traditional hunts in Idaho. I remember when they first came out hearing tradition people complain about what that state called traditional. They had rules like you could only use wood arrows and no motorized vehicle could aid in your hunt to name a few. That's right guys no ATV or pickup to transport you from camp to a hunting spot. Mostly I heard guys complain about having to shoot wood. A lot of people where not as traditional as they thought they where. Needless to say the hunts failed from lack of participation. We have long seasons here so I really didn't see the need to have them anyway or seen any advantage to participating in one and leaving my favorite hunt areas. The rules didn't bother me.
Well said guys... :thumbsup:
To add let's be really careful what we wish for. There has been many great points already on this thread showing pit falls to this idea.
I have see on other forms discussions on determining what a longbow is by definition. Everybody had there own idea of what a longbow is and things turned into a crazy debate. Same thing goes for the word traditional or primitive everybody has there own line in the sand saying primitive or traditional stops here.
Most of us shoot modern longbows and recurves that have been refined over the years to add performance and shoot ability. Even with the selfbow guys many will use modern finishes and string materials to enhance there bows. Where would the states draw the line. Nobody wants to be left out and we all want to be included.
I shoot a hill style longbow and wood arrows, My idea of a traditional or primitive hunt would be much different then a selfbow shooter , or a guy with a aluminum riser Super curve shooting carbons arrows. Someone is going to be mad about where the state draws the line.
Here is a good example of what could happen. A state could say, " no rubber, metal, or foam can be attached to your bow". Most modern longbow and recurve shooters have there quiver mounted to there bow. Depending on where the line is drawn that could happen. That would make a lot of people mad.
Let's just be careful what we wish for guys as traditional as you think you are the state law makers could disagree and leave you in the modern archery season.
Well I'll say this. I certainly hope the few responses here on a trad Bowhunting dedicated forum do not represent the majority. Arizona and other states are losing "Bowhunting" opportunities due to a high success rate.
Bill Starry noticed this back in the 1980s at MCAAP and implemented very simple weapons restrictions to curb the success rate while using modern (1980s) archery equipment. No sights, no release aids, longbows and recurves only. That has worked for darn near 40 years now. And good luck drawing a tag. There's about 250 tags per weekend and over 2,000 applications (last time I checked) for those....each weekend.
Either curb the technology or curb the number of people hunting.
To say some of these responses I've read here, on Tradgang, are disheartening is quite an understatement.
Especially considering the numerous emails I have sent to Oregon and Arizona game in fish asking them to consider a limited technology archery season when faced with the alternative of either eliminating general OTC tags for draw only or worse, eliminating those season dates all together.
I can also think back to a time whe. Some public land near the OKc metro area was being proposed to open up for archery season because of the high deer vehicle collisions. One city rep even proposed using a trad only bow season when faced with potential dangers or higher technology archery weapons. That proposal died. Largely due to apathy of trad hunters. If every person who applied for the MCAAP hunt sent a letter to the OKC council it may have passed and we would have more bowhunting. opportunities.
I mean some of the logic I've read here makes me ask
Why not eliminate weapon segregation all together? Lol
Kevin Dill makes a lot of sense.
I don't want to start a debate. Someone asked about Idahos traditional season and I just told you all of the complaints I heard from other longbow and recurve shooters that locally live here. I wanted to give some first hand information from locals who had opportunity to participate in a hunt like that. I never heard of one person that participated in that hunt or seen a reason to participate myself. I will leave this discussion up to you guys from here.
A TAG...I for one appreciate the info you provided...Thank you :wavey:
One problem we sometimes have is understanding that one man's negative is often another's positive. We might see higher archery success rates as a bad thing. They could well be a net positive in the eyes of a state's wildlife managers and planners. Also, most states are seeking to enhance opportunities for hunters instead of limiting them. Traditional archery is about as limiting as you can get in terms of percentage of hunters doing it. For most states these days there's a definite emphasis on hunter recruitment and that typically means looking for ways to expand opportunities. No state wants to do anything which reduces hunter numbers and participation.
A better strategy than traditional archery seasons might be specific primitive weapons AREAS which would benefit from a reduced kill rate/ratio. But currently most of those areas are managed (for harvest) by simply limiting available tags or entry. Some of them track the ongoing harvest through hunt reports, and terminate the hunt when harvest objectives are met or exceeded. It's no stretch to understand that state game managers or legislators are extremely unlikely to create or enact a special season or area which disenfranchises other hunters while favoring a very small special-interest group of hunters. Such a season would theoretically need to be the MOST logical solution to a perceived problem...and I mean as perceived by the state. If it even faintly appears to be something created to favor the aesthetic desires of stickbow guys it's a total non-starter....you can bank on that.
I grew up in the BC era, and I knew a time when stick bows were the only bows. I also know most of us wouldn't be enjoying the long and liberal (in general) archery seasons we do, were it not for the popularization of archery hunting that came along with wheels and cables. We rode in on the modern archery tidal wave which happened in the '70s and '80s. Many of us used some of that equipment and it was a stepping stone in our development. I didn't shoot conventional gear to be different from others. I did it because it appealed to my absolute need to challenge myself. I never asked for or expected anything different from my wheel friends and brothers. And while I've always enjoyed my conventional tackle, I've consistently rejected exclusivity, segregation or recognition for using it. Maybe it's a bit like driving a classic automobile. You don't get your own road or day of the week. You drive your '68 Malibu with everyone else.
I probably can't be more clear on one thing. I have never supported any effort to divide bowhunters and bowhunting according to the bow carried. I'm 100% against giving us (traditional equipment hunters) any type of exclusive special season or area based only on our aesthetic preferences. If it fits a state's management plan, that's a different objective. But so far it appears that only a few states have tried it.
Finally: This is a good and worthy topic....one which often produces differing viewpoints. We can discuss and debate this like gentlemen without feeling offended. My thoughts and experiences are my own. Yours are, well...yours and I respect them.
Kevin that pretty much echos my thoughts also.
Well stated bud..
:thumbsup:
Kevin, your points are well taken. Dustin, you are correct about the traditional only situation with McAlester. The McAlester hunts also back up Kevin's point of traditional only areas and or species. I have most likely read the same information that is being referenced concerning McAlester (Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, Oct./Nov. 1999). If I remember correctly, the traditional only requirement grew out of a desire to preserve the older buck age class that has been established at McAlester. McAlester is a special situation in a state that has so many deer as a whole, that that deer herd grew by 20% in total numbers this year, even after a record harvest in 2020. Growing up in, and still hunting Oklahoma every fall, I cannot see where a traditional archery season would fit in without taking away from other archery hunters. Oklahoma already has an archery season that runs from 10/01 - 01/15 each year, as well as a limit of six deer. Everyone's points about hunters showing up barely able to operate their gear is spot on. Traditional archery gear takes considerable effort to learn and become proficient with. I remember when compounds took more effort as well. In the eighties when I started hunting, I saw several guys with compound setups just as bad as what others on this thread have described concerning traditional archery setups. Quivers with a different spine and length on each arrow, as well as no more than two of them having the same broadhead and broadhead weight on them. Don't even ask if they were actually sharp. Don't get me started on how these guys were chain smoking cigarettes all the while they were on stand. They were gun hunters who had a nine day season and could not resist the seventy-seven days of archery season we had then in Oklahoma, and an additional two deer limit. Today's compound bows, even the entry level models can be mastered much easier, and so can crossbows which are legal during archery season in a lot of states. I would expect to see the wounding rate lower than what it probably was with the older equipment. As Kevin has stated, it gets more people in the woods, which is good for all of us. Please don't go down the rabbit hole of crossbows. I don't like them. In the case of Oklahoma, where the deer herd is expanding by 20%, even with a 25% percent harvest of the herd every year, I don't see our archery seasons being shortened.
As a "bowhunter/biologist" (to the chagrin of some of my early supervisors) I can share a few common thoughts, at least for the eastern half of the U.S. among wildlife agency folks:
1. Bowhunters were respected for their choice to limit their success with traditional equipment. I remember early 70's success rates in Indiana were 3%. That super-hunter mystique wore off after a few years of compounds. Not a big mgmt. deal, we just weren't considered as "challenged" as we once were. I've hunted with and still hunt with both types.
2. Bowhunters' strongest point of favor with many managers, was the great number of recreation days that could be provided (long seasons) without negatively impacting opportunity for others or the resource.
3. Bowhunters were considered the go-to group when heavily populated (urban) harvest was needed.
Later in my career I had to remind Wildlife Commissioners, when one or two might not favor bowhunters because they seemed to want more, at the expense of other sportsmen, that the typical bowhunter is often the agency's most avid of sportsman, buying licenses and partaking of so many fishing and hunting opportunities. That reminder would cause these fellows to pause just a moment or two. Most bowhunters also hunt with firearms and most also fish.
While I don't think we have a lot to fear at this time, the greatest threat to hunters (besides habitat loss of course) are regulations imposed by non-hunter wildlife managers. Some of the dumbest laws on the books were authored by non-partipants. Some ill-informed regulations were imposed by a regulator who was influenced by a self-described "expert" friend, acquaintance, or celebrity.
Very interesting comments, I think the environment, area, you live or hunt in makes a big difference in management regulations, I'm in northern Il. and am fine with the seasons for both Il. and Wi.. I must say I'm more concerned with the loss of habitat to hunt in, mainly highly pressured public lands that do not have an abundance of game to pursue, especially with trad gear, they usually get pushed out within the first week or two, in some places the designated parking area's are full by 6am, I'm talking archery only. In my area the overly dense Deer population seems to be in areas where there is no hunting aloud to the general public and is managed on the tax payers dime by contracting so called professionals and or government employees to cull the herds and there not doing it with a bow and arrow, usually closing the area off and culling the herd at night, baiting, and the use of an efficient weapon, it has to be done to preserve the areas, that's just my scenario I'm sure there many others. I'll half to travel at least 2 hours to get to better public land and even that can be marginal. Just to say wildlife management varies and is ongoing area to area. There's plenty of archery hunters in Northern Il. and Wi. I think urban sprawl is changing the management process quit a bit around here and many other places. JMHO.
My thoughts are, we trad guys are the minority of all hunters and bow hunters.
Yet some trad folks think we should have our own special season?
What if the compound guys wanted their own special season and the crossbow guys wanted their own special season and the gun hunters wanted their own special season?
If deer seasons were put up for a vote amongst all the hunters, we trad guys lose.
I'm a hunter first and it's my choice as to what weapon I choose to hunt with, same as it is other hunters choice as to their choice of weapon.
Just because we choose stick bows to hunt with doesn't mean we are special in other hunters minds.
It's a dog eat dog world out there and sometimes it is better to compromise with others.
Bow hunters can hunt all the seasons with their bows and that gives us a heck of a lot of more days in the woods than someone who only gun hunts.
Ohio is rough. Not only do we not have a purely traditional season, but anyone can also even use a crossbow for the entire sept-feb archery season. Not a huge fan of it. Love the idea though. Good luck with that pursuit.
im pretty happy with what we have nowadays, compared to what the oldtimers had when they started it all for us. nowadays i can kill a deer and kill another the next day or next month or two or three.
the archery season history in mo.
https://mdc.mo.gov/magazines/conservationist/1996-10/50-years-archery-deer-hunting
I think the bottom line for any traditional-only season or area is this: It has to solve an existing problem for wildlife managers, and it needs to be the best solution in their views. It also would need to do so without appearing to favor the aesthetic desires of traditional bowhunters. That's a very tall hurdle to clear, and probably unlikely given the various biases which affect decision making at that level. Bowwild knows this all too well I'm certain.
I believe statewide exclusive traditional archery seasons are probably a moot point for all intents and purposes.
I don't know of any but I feel this would result in guys that have no business hunting with a trad bow trying to extend their season. I'd like to see crossbows only be permitted if individuals are handicapped or during firearm season.
The crossbows on the market are insane, I don't know how shooting one could be considered archery.
When the Colorado Bowhunters tried to argue for their own season separate from Muzzeloaders...the G&F said, " OK, then you will have a much shorter season because the muzzie guys will still have that week" CBH dropped their request.
A few trad only areas would be nice....
.
As mentioned by a lot of guys before, a traditional only season would probably lead to more issues than it would solve. Now every unique weapon group would want their own season, which could potentially cut back on what we currently have. Right now in Michigan I can bowhunt from October 1 thru January 1, a solid three months. Sure I have to share that with the compound and crossbow guys, but I'd much rather have those three months to hunt vs have say three weeks where it's just the trad guys.
Currently the U.P. doesn't allow crossbows during the late archery season. I wouldn't mind seeing that regulation extended down to the lower peninsula.
I agree with lots of the sentiments here. To ethically hunt with traditional equipment is a commitment. Many are not willing to put forth the necessary time and effort, and I would hate to incentivize those unwilling to adequately prepare to pick it up for the benefit of a few extra days of hunting. Our quarry deserves better.
I believe a trad only season would be a no go here in Texas. To create a special season, you have to take season away from someone else and that is not likely a popular idea for such a statistically small group. Also, in most of Texas, biologist want more deer killed, not less.
Good conversation here on both sides of the coin. Kevin's reminder that hunting seasons and regulations are supposed to meet a management objective is the thing that should guide all decision making. Promoting a season that benefits an extremely small group of stakeholders without a clearly articulated management objective serves only a recreational purpose and is not likely to be well received or sustainable in the long run.
While there are exceptions, general trends still indicate stable or growing deer herds combined with declining hunter numbers. Game managers are not generally looking for ways to limit hunter participation or deer harvest. There are exceptions and if you can find those exceptions, you might find a match for a trad only or primitive season on a parcel of property that allows an added hunting opportunity. I think that is the real key. You have to find something extra, not something that will take away or reduce existing opportunities for other sportsmen.
While hunters in some states are seeing a loss of public land opportunities, others see the acquisition of new properties on an annual basis. In states where the opportunities are declining, it would not make sense to impose further restrictions on hunters. However, in a state that is acquiring public land, an opportunity might arise to create a special use hunt.
We don't have a traditional only season in KY. I am not sure how beneficial it would be in reality. However, I haven't thought about very much either.
Initially, I thought I would favor a separate season. However, after reading this thread multiple times, I have changed my mind.
What we have always spoken about here in NYS is a natural progression of implements. Hand drawn bows, then firearms/crossbows. Any superior implement, including flintlocks and modern muzzleloaders, crossbows, pneumatic powered firearms, and other firearms all offer distinct advantages, including, but not limited to, the ability to be pre-loaded and pre-cocked prior to game coming in range. Add in telescopic sighting devices, and the entire picture changes.
NYB was asked what will it take to bring crossbows to the table for discussion. We said first, remove the scopes, the response was: "Not going to happen." So that was the end of the discussion.
Our wonderfully inept DEC this year even authorized a mid-September, antlerless, firearms hunt, which opened just days before the Northern Zone Archery Opener, and 2 weeks before the Southern Zone Archery Opener. When talking to so-called "biologists", and the suits that control them, they are only looking at selling as many licenses as possible, and NOT, sound game management.
Quote from: Wild Bill MCP 808 on December 19, 2021, 12:43:41 PM
Pennsylvania and Maryland have primitive seasons - FYI
PA has a late archery and flintlock deer season. It starts the day after Christmas and is three weeks long. Any archery equipment is allowed. No inlines, muzzleloaders must be flintlocks.
I would like to see an area set aside on a trial basis for 3-5years and then take it from there. Especially so in hard hunted public areas such as in Wisc
and Michigan.
A proposed trad only Dall Sheep season in Alaska right now. Im curious if some of the detracted here on trad gang will support it or try to get it shut down. Based on the replies here sounds like the majority would not be in favor. Which to me is extremely alarming. My opinion.
I'm not sure anyone would be terribly against it but you must realize the can of worms that could be opened as far as hunters that use other weapons that might not like it or want more special seasons for themselves.
Exactly....
As a Game Warden I hear so often from hunters and anglers that there are too many laws. I always tell them that most of the time, new laws were submitted by a representative on behalf of some public group. A law like this would beg to be broken. People would still use compounds and crossbows and claim the kill as Traditional. It would also cause more of a rift between Compound and Traditional Archers in a time where we should be unified.
I agree there are too many laws. But I don't agree laws cause more people to break them. People who break laws are going to break laws regardless. They just use any excuse they can. With all that said I'm still against a separate season. Now if there are certain isolated areas for what ever reason the harvest needs to be slowed by all means restrict the kill by having a separate season that historically kills fewer animals.
It would also cause more of a rift between Compound and Traditional Archers in a time where we should be unified.
Exactly....
One rationale (often given) to justify a trad season is the reduced participation/lower success rate argument. There's a mental image of fewer hunters afield and less intense competition. The reality is sometimes quite different after a few years.
No spinning rod angler ever said "Let's make this river fly-fishing-only". It was fly rod folks who pushed for it. There were fewer of them, and logic was that making a stream or season 'fly fishing only' would limit participation and reduce competition. This is an example of how well it worked:
(https://i.imgur.com/WAYF6s9l.jpg)
I've seen crowds of fly anglers in North Carolina, Alaska, Wyoming, West Virginia and more. People are not deterred by a lack of equipment or experience. Today you can call yourself a fly fisherman or a traditional bowhunter just as fast as you can order the gear online. We all know there's more to it than that, but the point is you'll qualify to participate, whether you have any skills or not. We all know that people often don't wait to acquire and hone their skills before heading afield. They learn through trial, error, failure and maybe success....often at the expense of their quarry.
Interesting views here.
The one season that stands out and is interesting to me is that P.A Flintlock season. Similar thought to a trad season. I remember freezing all day just to have my gun not fire 30yrs ago. I don't think that flint only has caused a bunch of issues or division in the hunting world. We trad are a huge minority but also seem a very divided opinionated group with lots of infighting compared to the muzzle lobby. I wouldn't care if some newbies bought a new sage recurve and went to hunt in a trad only area or season. That's how some people will become trad bowhunters, Some will stick. Some wont. Like me and flintlock. I sold that gun that night.
The flintlock season worked and it hasn't blown up the hunting world.
You get what you negotiate for. Most of those fly fishermen will only try it once and never catch a fish. But some will become lifelong fly guys. And the set a side streams they have worked for give them great fishing. Good job by them.
I know the bucks would get older in a trad only area just like those trout.
People don't wait to hone or acquire hunting skills before heading a field goes for every single season we already have. It starts somewhere. There is a learning time. I am for proficiency shooting test like I have had to do to hunt some ranches and I hear other countries have. Although it is not perfect.
Sounds like the issue is getting .gov to mandate the opportunity instead of providing it yourself. I'm against special privileges for squeaky wheels in public areas. Any way you angle it, there are always unintended consequences.
You should be able to make private areas as trad only as you like if you're footing the bill for it.
Found a recurve, longbow and old style muzzleloader only hunt in Tennessee on the Waterfowl refuge. First weekend in Oct. So there is one out there. No compounds.
We can wax poetic about limited weapons seasons all we want. Bottom line is there is a very distinct separation between a recurve and longbow and everything else in Archery seasons in the US. I would make the argument that the line is far more distinct than the already separated rifle and black powder rifle season.
I would also make an argument that with longbows and recurves the technology is not radically changing as it applies to those bows and hunting. Especially compared to muzzle loader technology improvements and very much so against compound bows and crossbows.
My simple question is if black powder rifles can maintain a seperste season in 2022 why couldn't you at least make the arguments for bow seasons ans the two very distinct weapons categories?
Same argument same dead horse I've been beating on this thread. :deadhorse:
Not sure your reasoning, but I think if every different weapon had there own season, who gets preferential treatment as far as Rut season, Area, and so on, and the break up would probly shorten everyone's season and make it more tedious to navigate the Reg's. Can you elaborate your plan better. As far as Muzzle Loader season it's a tight line as it is as far as the efficiencies of the weapons that are now available and so on. Illinois has Muzzle Loader only season but basic gun season is regulated to shotgun only no rifle season in Il. of course the slug guns are pretty good these days and you can get a Muzzle Loader that can shoot just as good as most Rifle's of course one shot and then the process of reloading but one shot is usually all you get regardless before the animal spooks and runs away. :dunno: I think We need to keep the Reg's at a happy medium as much as possible and try not to unnecessarily overcomplicate things which seems to be the norm these days.
West Virginia has a Heritage Season in January. It is Recurve,longbow, or traditional muzzleloader. You can harvest one deer, black bear, and turkey.
I would rather just fight to keep archery seasons vertical bows only.
https://www.register-herald.com/sports/mountaineer-heritage-season-ready-for-another-year/article_ba3ddede-bca1-5c79-95fe-bacfe8c4f28c.html
Here is the West Virginia story.
My buddies and I have our own trad only hunts. We have squirrel camp, deer camp, and hog camp. We go to several trad only shoots and events throughout the year.
It's a lifestyle for us.
The telling thing here is that we are having a discussion about having a archery season separate from the archery season.Sadly technology has changed this sport forever.The easier, the quicker the better.Rest assured that when bowhunting seasons were first allowed by the fish and game depts. todays equipment was not remotely what they had in mind.Growing up in Texas,I began bow hunting in the late 60's.Then our wildlife dept. viewed the bow as a poachers weapon. We were required to write our name and address permanently on every arrow carried afield.That requirement lasted at least into the 1980's.My how things have changed!Now scoped crossbows are legal here for the archery season that in the hands of a 6 year old can accurately shoot an animal at 80 + yards.A separate season is not the answer,Red Beastmaster has the right idea-birds of a feather.The primary reason I'm on Trad Gang.
Hey Fellas,
It may seem like the idea of a Traditional Archery season or tag is not relevant to you if you live somewhere with an abundant overpopulation of game and long hunting seasons. However, here in the West very few cervid populations are above carrying capacity. Specifically speaking of mule deer, the majority of them have been on the decline across their range. Most of the mule deer decline is likely due to habitat loss from development and resource extraction activities. In addition to loss of habitat, we are seeing a higher kill rate during the archery season than before. Correlation is not causation, but it seems clear to me that the increase in technology for modern archery gear plays a role is peoples' ability to kill animals from further distances (rangefinders, sights, trigger releases, and very efficient bows); added onto the new tackle technology are other devices like GPS, phone apps, satellite imaging, spotting scopes and optics, quads, lightweight clothes and gear, etc. that have made it easier for people to go places they might not have before. This is not just speculation. Check the internet and see how far people shoot arrows at mule deer and elk now awadays. I ran into a hunter this season who shot (and thankfully missed) a buck from 150 yards, and saw a picture of another who shot his first from 126 yards and a second from 147 yards, killing the buck.
Now look at 2 state game agencies who have or are about to address their concern with a higher success rate in what was supposed to be a "primitive weapons" season with little to no impact on the game populations: Oregon has now made ALL archery mule deer units draw tags. They used to be OTC, and you used to be able to hunt any unit with one tag, now you have to pick your unit.
Arizona is about to decide on one of three options for what was an OTC archery deer tag good for the majority of the state's units: 1) Make the tag a draw hunt; 2) make each unit a quota hunt that will close when archery harvest has reached 20% of rifle harvest; or 3) leave it the same as it is an OTC tag (unlikely this will happen since the purpose of addressing this issue is one of over harvest).
We could easily reduce harvest AND maintain hunting opportunities by putting the "primitive" back into the primitive weapons seasons. A Traditional Archery tag or season or unit would be ideal. But we could also accomplish this by prohibiting range finders, taking sights off bows, and prohibiting releases.
Sure, a Trad tag, season, or unit would mean some folks just buy a cheap recurve and "become" a trad hunter overnight. But the reality is unless you put the time in for years, you're going to be very good, which means you won't kill many animals.
And it's not just this way for mule deer. Idaho has made it harder for non-residents to get an elk tag. Colorado moved a bunch of their OTC archery elk tags to draw hunts last year. Oregon is doing the same with some archery elk units.
This doesn't have to be a divisive issue amongst us hunters. Rather it should be promoted and seen as a means to create and keep hunting opportunities where the alternative is for them to be reduced.
Preston
Idaho is still, first come first serve on out of state deer and elk tags. The state still has a set number of tags available for non-residents that you can buy on line in December. Last year those tags did sell out in better regions by June.
As far as the long range shooting goes it could happen but for that kind of range a compound will have to have two peeps or the sight gets so low there will be contact with the fletching or the arrow itself. Most target archers get about 100 yards out of there sight before contact. The average compound shooter that I know will not shoot past about 50 yards do to lack of accuracy with a hunting set up. The compound archers I know that will shoot out to 60 70 yards are well above average shooters and most say shooting that far is not ethical on live animals because of the amount of time it takes for Arrow to get to the animal. I'm not saying a guy can't shoot a bow that far. anybody can launch a arrow at one, even a trad guy. There are slob hunter everywhere. I just don't want guys back east thinking compound guys out here are setting up to take 100 plus's yard shots. That's just what YouTube guys do to try to become famous.
As far as a traditional only season I've already mentioned it's been tried in Idaho. I have never felt at a disadvantage shooting longbow. I feel like my success rate is the same as compound shooter in my area if not better in most cases. At least in my area I see no need for separation.
The real game changer (literally) on deer harvest numbers is the crossbow.When added as legal equipment for the archery season they will dramatically affect harvest numbers and the numbers of hunters in the field.I A crossbow is nothing more than a scoped gun that shoots an arrow with extreme accuracy, easily to 100 + yds. No knowledge of archery required.I have friends who hunt western Kansas each year with crossbows and routinely kill big mule deer at ridiculously long ranges.The issue is not with the technology but only that crossbows have no place in archery seasons.If you are lucky enough to live in a state that still does not allow crossbows in the archery seasons I might suggest that your trad groups and organizations concentrate your efforts on keeping them out aside from creating a separate trad season. And get ready- crossbow manufacturers have a powerful lobby and money to spend to sell their idea to wildlife depts.
Agree 110%. There is plenty of data to support it.
I learned about this west Virginia heritage season because of this thread. I think i will do this hunt. I havent hunted W.V. in years but have a few good spots. Probably little competition. Like it :clapper:
Preston, you have made a very succinct argument for trad/primitive seasons. There is a world of difference between game populations in the East/Midwest vs. many of the Western States. Why are gun seasons anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks in most of the country while archery seasons typically in the same states run from 3-4 months? This is due to higher success rates for gun seasons over archery seasons. Success rates in the past and the number of animals taken was much higher during gun seasons. As Preston mentioned, we have already seen some Western states beginning to restrict unlimited OTC tags for a draw due to higher archery season success rates. I would invite everyone to do a little research and look at the data available for 35+ years for the MacAlester Traditional hunts. Who amongst us wouldn't be in favor of a trad/primitive season if it meant maintaining our long seasons?
As for a concern over someone picking up a recurve/longbow to participate, it happens anywhere there is a special season. Some will stick with while others fade away. I picked up a recurve in the late 80's to potentially draw a tag for MacAlester while living in Oklahoma. After 35 years, it looks like I stuck with it!
I feel like you will have to be more specific on which western state is being referred to. There is a lot of western states All are managed different and have different challenges. It hard for anybody to speak for the state or states in question unless they live there or hunt there every year.
I can speak for the panhandle zone of Idaho. Overharvesting is not a issue here in fact in 2021 we got a week of season back that was taken way because of a predation issue the state was having greatly affecting our elk herds. With the help of sportsmen and the fish and game Predator reduction has been greatly helping to the point we where given a week back. Every state will have there own issues that will have to be managed within.
I personally would not be in favor of adding a primitive hunt here unless it was a added season late in the year not affecting any other sportsmen hunting opportunity. In other places it might makes since I don't live there or understand there local issues.
Hey Greg (A Tag), you're right every state is different and each has its own concerns and issues. And I hear you, that in your state, Idaho, you've tried a traditional archery season, and in your words "it didn't work". What do you mean by it didn't work? There wasn't enough participation? It didn't reduce the success rate?
Also, in response to your thought, "I personally would not be in favor of adding a primitive hunt here unless it was a added season late in the year not affecting any other sportsmen hunting opportunity. In other places it might makes since I don't live there or understand there local issues."
- These Traditional Archery seasons or units or tags should not be reducing other user groups opportunities/tag numbers/season length. For example, in petition and proposals I have submitted to my state's DFW and FGC, the Traditional Tags would be NEW seasons, NEW opportunities, and NEW tags. In other states where it is being proposed the goal would be to maintain existing seasons before they become limited entry draw hunts.
Where the traditional hunts failed here was lack of participation. A lot of traditional bowhunters thought the state was to restrictive on equipment used on the hunt. One rule was you had to use wood arrows no carbon, or aluminum. Another was no motorized vehicles could be used to aid in the hunt. Meaning once you got to camp you had to hunt by foot no driving to other trail heads from camp, no ATV ect. You can see where I'm going with this a lot of guy where not as traditional as they thought they where.
My suggestion for setting up a traditional hunt in other states would be where do you draw the line for what is considered traditional. That will cause much debate between traditional bowhunters causing more divide. Nobody want to be told there equipment is not traditional. For the record I never disagreed with the restrictions Idaho put in place on equipment.
I would support all states if time allows and animals numbers support it adding traditional seasons. I think it would do a lot to promote traditional archery to young hunters wanting to participate in another season. It would also generate revenue if states sold a traditional permit to hunt in the season. I added that because when talking to the government you have to make it benefit them :-) I think it will be hard to talk states out of draw hunts as planed because of the revenue generated from hunters buying points. I know I give Wyoming $50 a year for the opportunity to hunt there several years down the road. Think about how much money a state like Wyoming makes just on their elk preference points a year.