I shoot a 45# recurve, I know it's too much weight for me right now but it's what I have until I can source some 40# limbs.
Shooting the 45# I usually do pretty well for the first 24-36 arrows and sometimes as many as 48 arrows . After that my accuracy goes to pot because I'm struggling to control the bow. I've been shooting only a couple months, 3-5 days a week depending on weather and my back issues.
My question is - Should I keep shooting arrows after I'm past the point of shooting well to help me build up my strength? Or, is continuing to shoot past that point risking injury and creating bad technique/form?
So far, shooting past that point so far has helped me get stronger and shoot better for longer but it's also resulted in injury that left me unable to shoot at all for 3 weeks too so pros and cons.
What do you guys think?
When I'm a little fatigued for whatever reason but I still want to shoot, I will go out and stump shoot. That's shooting rotten stumps, old cans or pine cones as I rove through the woods. It is better hunting practice (if that's your goal) and the shots are more spaced out so I'm not just going back and forth pouring arrows and wearing myself out
You're building up your muscle with the number of arrows you shoot comfortably now. I wouldn't keep shooting when your accuracy starts to decrease. You'll just develop bad habits that will be more difficult to break even after you have a lighter weight bow. Another regimen you might try is to shoot fewer arrows more often, say 25 arrows twice a day on those days you shoot.
How do you know 45 lbs is to much ? If you can shoot that many arrows well I'd shoot until you feel things going south then quit. Give it a day and do it again similar to building up any muscles and muscle memory but don't go past that point to avoid picking up bad form. Some shooting styles don't require a long hold while others do. Both and everything in between can be deadly accurate
If you are satisfied with your shooting you should be able to maintain that and even improve with just a few dozen shots a session. I found if I'm tired or frustrated I would put down the bow and come back later. It can be hard to overcome some problems if you just keep shooting. The only shot that really counts is the one you put in the deer or whatever you are hunting. If you can make that one shot each day you should be good for the hunt.
Is your bow marked 45@28. Do you pull the full 28 in. If less you may be not at 45. Have the draw weight checked and how far you really draw the bow.
If you cant be comfortable then put it down and recoup. And lighter limbs will be better you will be more accurate and when you hitting well you are happier. :archer2: :archer2:
If you still feel the need to keep shooting even after your accuracy starts to wane, maybe move close to the target and just try blank baling at that point. It would help you build muscle without sacrificing accuracy. Might also help you to focus more on your form even when you are fatigued.
Quote from: JonCagle on November 25, 2021, 05:08:21 PM
When I'm a little fatigued for whatever reason but I still want to shoot, I will go out and stump shoot. That's shooting rotten stumps, old cans or pine cones as I rove through the woods. It is better hunting practice (if that's your goal) and the shots are more spaced out so I'm not just going back and forth pouring arrows and wearing myself out
I'll try this too. All I have is my yard but plenty of pinecones laying around.
Quote from: JakeD on November 25, 2021, 09:40:04 PM
If you still feel the need to keep shooting even after your accuracy starts to wane, maybe move close to the target and just try blank baling at that point. It would help you build muscle without sacrificing accuracy. Might also help you to focus more on your form even when you are fatigued.
What is blank baling?
Quote from: Brandi on November 25, 2021, 09:51:46 PM
Quote from: JakeD on November 25, 2021, 09:40:04 PM
If you still feel the need to keep shooting even after your accuracy starts to wane, maybe move close to the target and just try blank baling at that point. It would help you build muscle without sacrificing accuracy. Might also help you to focus more on your form even when you are fatigued.
What is blank baling?
Get within point blank range of your target, as in a couple feet so you know you will hit it. Draw back and close your eyes. Don't worry about aiming or where the arrow hits. Focus only on your form and proper mechanics.
For more detailed instructions, just google blank baling archery. My definition was just a nutshell version of it.
Quote from: Dave Lay on November 25, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
How do you know 45 lbs is to much ? If you can shoot that many arrows well I'd shoot until you feel things going south then quit. Give it a day and do it again similar to building up any muscles and muscle memory but don't go past that point to avoid picking up bad form. Some shooting styles don't require a long hold while others do. Both and everything in between can be deadly accurate
I was thinking same thing. Doesn't sound you're overbowed unless you're actually having probs attaining full draw. I'd never shoot once I started getting tired and here's one most never talk about? The mental aspect. If everything else is correct the mental thing is all the difference. I'd actually never shoot as many as you're stating. I prefer to shoot a dozen arrows, go inside. Come back out a bit later, dozen more. It's almost dark, a dozen more. This morning it's raining and rifle season, I hate hunting in the rain anyhow but between raindrops being I'm home I may shoot 3-4 times today. Guess it depends how convenient that is as well. If you can just open a door and shoot that's what I'd suggest. If you need to go somewhere I'd still break it up. 3D is the only time I shoot 3 dozen or more arrows in a row if the course demands that but it's still one arrow at each target with breaks in between. Besides just physical your brain imo should stay fresh
For some reason my long detailed response to all the great advice here isn't showing up. I'll give the short version. I'll start shooting fewer arrows with the 45# limbs and just continue working on my accuracy.
Once I get some lighter limbs I'll extend my shooting sessions for fun. That's why I shoot the bow, is for fun and who doesn't want their fun to last longer? With the heavier limbs it's less about fun and more about pain and frustration past a few dozen arrows so no point risking another injury.
Thanks for the advice.
When you go to shoot those pine cones, you really should invest in a couple of judo points. They are practically indestuctable, and unlosable. They will pay for themselves many times over. Just look at any dealer who sells traditional gear, and they will have them. I recently had my wife order a pair (they are packed two to a card) for two of our Grand Daughters from Amazon. They were a little more, but the free shipping was less than ordering and paying S&H.
Murray
Building up in draw weight is simply shooting a few more shots at the heavier draw until your strength increases. Unfortunately, this is so easy to say, but one must take care as to how many "extra" shots to make. Go slow, and don't rush it. When tiredness starts affecting your form, stop for the day. Shooting up to 36 arrows a day shows that you are getting close. Don't do like I did, though. I went from 58# to 78# with the simple writing of a check to purchase a bow, so I can truly say, "Do like I say, not like I do", as I had numerous problems. Remember, slow and steady will get you where you want to go.
5 well executed shots are fare better than 25 flung arrows that hit there mark. Focus less on where you are hitting and more on the mechanics of the shot. As soon as any fatigue (physical or mental)starts to set in stop. Your accuracy will come as your mechanics are honed. Like stated before you may not be shooting 45# most bow weights are marked at 28" draw for each onch you draw shooter than 28" you lose 2-3 lbs of weight.
Having shoulder issues as well as many other health problems I rarely shoot many arrows at a time. Most of the time I go out and shoot what is in my practice quiver, which is 6-8, pull them, and quit. It has actually helped me shooting less arrows, it makes me focus more on each shot, knowing I don't have many. I never push on with pain, or with accuracy suffering, I know by experience what the results of that are. During 3D shoots I switch to a lighter bow and lower spine arrows so I can shoot more. A little regular home therapy helps my ability to keep shooting. It's better than having to quit!
Several people have wondered how many pounds you are actually pulling, and I think this would be valuable information for you to know, and is useful to us in answering your questions. It is easy to find out. Just get a marking pen, and have someone mark where the arrow crosses the back of the bow (the side away from you) when you are at full draw. Have them do it several times. If the marks aren't all in the same place, measure from some average location and make a note that you need more practice in drawing the bow to a consistent anchor. Your draw length is the distance from the mark to the valley of the nock, where the string rests. Your true draw weight will be the marked weight on the bow + or - two or three pounds for every inch your draw length is over or under 28".
If the bow feels heavier to you it probably is. Shooting a heavier bow and working out are the only ways I've been able to go up in draw weight. I wouldn't shoot it after my shooting form stared to fail.
Quote from: Brandi on November 25, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
I shoot a 45# recurve, I know it's too much weight for me right now but it's what I have until I can source some 40# limbs.
Shooting the 45# I usually do pretty well for the first 24-36 arrows and sometimes as many as 48 arrows . After that my accuracy goes to pot because I'm struggling to control the bow. I've been shooting only a couple months, 3-5 days a week depending on weather and my back issues.
My question is - Should I keep shooting arrows after I'm past the point of shooting well to help me build up my strength? Or, is continuing to shoot past that point risking injury and creating bad technique/form?
So far, shooting past that point so far has helped me get stronger and shoot better for longer but it's also resulted in injury that left me unable to shoot at all for 3 weeks too so pros and cons.
What do you guys think?
If you are
bowhunting, and you can get off
just one arrow with consistent accuracy at whatever hunting distance you can achieve that kinda accuracy and within the realm of your hunting conditions (weather and terrain), there is no problem and yer good to go. :thumbsup:
However, "target shooting", where a course might mean 50 or more arrows flung, is a dif'rent story entirely.
You don't need to fling arrows to build up holding weight, in fact it's best not to go that route. You just need to set up a daily schedule of drawing your bow *past* your draw length by an inch or so and hold for a second or few seconds. Do this in reps and
don't overdo it. Inside of a few weeks that 45lb bow will feel a good 5lbs lighter at your draw length ... promise.
Try shooting 1- 2 arrows a day, every day when you're not shooting a session.
Just try to make them well placed.
You'll be surprised after awhile how good you'll become .
Kevin
Quote from: mj seratt on November 26, 2021, 06:53:12 AM
When you go to shoot those pine cones, you really should invest in a couple of judo points. They are practically indestuctable, and unlosable. They will pay for themselves many times over. Just look at any dealer who sells traditional gear, and they will have them. I recently had my wife order a pair (they are packed two to a card) for two of our Grand Daughters from Amazon. They were a little more, but the free shipping was less than ordering and paying S&H.
Murray
About the judo points. Almost all of them are 100 grain. I shoot 125 grain points, do I need 125 grain judo points?
The 100 grain points seem to be 12 or more points for $10-15. The only 125 grain judo's I found were $15 for just two points. They were made by Zwickey so I assume they are much better quality. Honestly I'd rather buy two points for $15 that won't break than a dozen no name that may break for the same money. The 125 grain Zwickey points look like they are really well made compared to the other brands.
I shoot 2 arrows then retrieve them .By that time your muscles are ready for another 2 shots.
Yes u want 125 to match ur target points...i would go with the zwickys...by the way welcome to the addiction :wavey:
If I remember correctly, the judos my wife ordered were $12.00 and maybe some change. She gets free shipping on her orders, I think from buying so durn much. These are 5/16 inches, and weigh 120 grains each. I didn't ask what size shaft you were shooting. My wife shoots a 46 pound bow, at her draw lenght and her shafts are all 5/16 size. You can also find 11/32 in these weight ranges. I only made two arrows up with judos, one each for my Grand Daughters, and one shot each is plenty in their backyard. We use ping pong balls as targets. You will need to know what size arrow shafts you're using before you order. Best of luck!
Murray
You definitely want the real Zwickey Judos as the few foreign made knock offs fall apart (bent or lost springs) after only a couple shots.
This is truly a case of "get what you pay for" in a product.
So I'll definitely be going with the Zwickey judo points. They say that the fit all arrows with exception of one type and I don't shoot those so I should be good. My arrows are Gold Tip Hunter XT 500's so pretty common arrow.
5 GOOD arrows.... Are better than 50 Bad arrows!
Maybe you could post a pic of your form.
I am no expert but plenty here can help with that also.
Archery form is key - there are basics and then there are the form modifications to suit our personal physiology. Get the form right from the get-go. This may require private training with a trad archery coach.
Daily gentle reps with an extended draw length will do wonders for handling bow weight.
Zwickey judos are the way to go - don't be concerned with a 25 grain point weight difference.
Roving practice with ONE arrow is good after bale work to get your instinctive aim down pat for distances of 5 to 20 yards.
My issues have improved quite a bit recently thanks to the advice I've gotten from you guys. One other thing that helped a LOT was something I learned from a Clay Hayes video on anchor points. I was using the corner of my mouth but moved it up to my nose. My groups got much tighter and my accuracy improved as well.
Combine that with shooting fewer arrows with longer rest periods in between and the other tips I've picked up here and I'm pretty amazed at how much improvement I've had in such a short period of time. Yesterday I shot 6 groups of 12 arrows (with some breaks in between) and my 6th group was as good or better than my first which has never happened before. So thank you for that everyone!
I'm looking forward to getting the judo points and hunting some pine cones!
Plenty of good advice.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2:
Well, once again my poor old brain didn't realize that you might not be shooting wood arrows. That's all we have here. So ignore my talk about 5/16 and 11/32.
Murray
No problem at all! :)
Lots of very consistent advice among these posts! After a proper warm-up (which most don't do...I didn't for years) properly executed shots are key.
I would recommend warming up with a loop of string (String Bow) that when stretched out like a bow is your draw length. Practice your shot sequence with the string (non-elastic), including follow-through.
When done properly the non-elastic string will jump out of your hand because of active muscles in the draw and bow arms.Pretend the string bow is your real bow. Then when shooting your actual bow, pretend it is the string bow. This focuses you on the process rather than the result.
This is taught to about 2,000,000 4-12th graders ever year in 11 countries, mostly in the U.S. You can do a search for "NASP String Bow" and find videos.
In my earliest days of hunting with recurves (70's) I would build my shooting muscles by drawing the bow without arrows and hold for an increasing amount of time, counting down in my head.
I even did this in the mid-70's in my dorm room at college. I'd get to where I could hold the draw for 60 seconds even though only 3-5 seconds were needed when actual shooting.
Oh, be careful even with this exercise to warm-up and not cause yourself shoulder issues.
This made my 50 pound draw weight bows a piece of cake to manage.
Two thoughts from my experience:
For nearly thirty years, 95% of my practice has been with Judo points shooting at tennis balls, leaves, dandelions, etc. Normally, I have just one Judo tipped arrow, and end up randomly shooting at targets from 5-50 yards, although 15-20 is probably the average. I never enjoyed shooting field points at a fixed target much, and my version ends up being great practice for hunting. I have MS, so my sessions aren't usually long because of fatigue and balance. I will shoot somewhere between 7 and 30 or so arrows, depending on how I am feeling for the day.
The other thought is something I read long ago about the retired basketball star Larry Bird. He was one of the finest pure shooters that game ever saw, and it was said he had a personal rule when practicing: Always quit on a successful shot for the sake of your mind. I have adopted that through the years, and feel like it is a really good step for the mental and psychological aspects of archery. If I am having an off day, I settle down, concentrate on form and shoot at a few arrows at a relatively close target until one feels right and results in a hit. Then I make note of how that shot felt, and QUIT for the day. Other times, when I've been shooting well, and suddenly have that magical moment when everything feels right, and something in your brain knows you are going to (and DO) hit the target even as you are just releasing the string, I say to myself, "Self... remember that!...." and quit.
It is amazingly satisfying when your last shot with a judo point center punches a tennis ball at 33 yards and "sends" it flying ten yards farther with a rewarding "thunk". Something like that always makes me say, "Enough for today. Remember that."
Best wishes in your journey. It sounds like you are really off to a good start.
Daryl
Got my Zwickey judo points and was looking forward to whacking some pine cones. Then comes another injury (not bow related) so a week plus of doing nothing to aggravate it. Finally went out to hunt pine cones because they were everywhere. Except they weren't. I guess since the colder temps hit the squirrels decimated them.
So I found one of the cats ping pong balls that had a dent in it. Chucked it across the yard and missed it by a couple inches. Picked up the arrow (judo point stopped it perfectly) and threw the ping pong ball as far as I could. Drew my bow and hit the ball perfectly. Unfortunately the ball exploded into several pieces. I think I'm going to order some tennis balls lol.
Good to hear ur up and running :thumbsup: lot more fun than shooting groups at a target face :archer2:
I would suggest that you do exercises with your bow and no arrows. This can be easily done inside at home anytime you have a few minutes. First draw the bow to 1/4 draw, hold for the count of 3-5 then extend draw to 1/2 draw, hold again for 3-5 sec. then to 3/4, hold, then full draw and hold. Let down in the opposite progression, down to 3/4 then 1/2 then 1/4 holding 3-5 sec at each stop . Do that multiple times. Then draw to full draw and slowly let down over a 5-10 count. do that several times.
The benefit is that you will gain strength handling the weight without developing bad habits which can and will occur if you try to improve your strength while shooting arrows.
Good Luck, give it a try I think you will see your strength and accuracy improve .
If you use tennis balls, put a slice in it or cut it in half to remove the air so you're not chasing it 40 yards down the trail. Good Luck
:archer2: ---- o o o ----- o o o ----o o - o -o -o- o- o o o o
If you use tennis balls, slice it in half so you're not chasing it down the road...good luck
:archer2: oo o o ooo ooo o oo oooo
Quote from: Deno on December 15, 2021, 05:24:26 AM
If you use tennis balls, put a slice in it or cut it in half to remove the air so you're not chasing it 40 yards down the trail. Good Luck
:archer2: ---- o o o ----- o o o ----o o - o -o -o- o- o o o o
Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. I tried it yesterday with a small wiffle ball cat toy and in addition to breaking it, it shot 20+ feet across the yard. Never thought a little wiffle ball would fly that far lol.
To me, "sending" the target ball is the satisfying part of the fun! If I send the tennis ball 20-30 yards with a good shot, I have my next target already set up...
Also, I fling the ball and let it bounce where it where it wants to randomize my practice. YMMV!
Quote from: Hawkeye on December 15, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
To me, "sending" the target ball is the satisfying part of the fun! If I send the tennis ball 20-30 yards with a good shot, I have my next target already set up...
Also, I fling the ball and let it bounce where it where it wants to randomize my practice. YMMV!
It is fun to watch it sail. In my case though, that would send it sailing onto the neighbors properties and I don't want to be that person constantly crossing over to retrieve balls.
Good point. :laughing: I live on a 400 acre farm, so don't have that particular problem!
Happy shooting!
Sounds like you've got plenty of room, feel free to email me a few acres to attach to my yard :biglaugh: