I'm just wondering what group size are people that hunt shoot? I'm coming from many years of compounds with very small groups I'm just wondering what group size are people comfortable with hunting whitetails?
Not Whitetails, but other deer, goats, pigs etc.
On a normal day I can keep three arrows pretty comfortably inside 5-6" at 20 yards. On a good day I can do a lot better, but on the occasional bad day I just put it away.
That said though, go stump shooting. One arrow groups. That's how we hunt isn't it :thumbsup:
Groups are ok, and they help me with form work, but putting a single arrow "close enough to kill" each time is way better (IMHO). Stumping is more like real life hunting.
Best
Lex
I don't shoot groups except for the fixed length range in my basement of 12 yards. Otherwise it's all outdoor 3-D shooting and other targets at unknown and variable ranges, one arrow at a time.
I figure a killing shot is about the size of a paper plate so I want all my shots to go into that plate, or very close to it. When I start straying from that, I'm beyond my (target) range and probably way beyond my hunting range.
What we can do under the intense pressure of a hunting shot is usually a lot less than what we can do on paper under calm and controlled conditions.
Can you put the first arrow where you want it every time? :archer2:
Quote from: Pat B on August 25, 2021, 12:02:59 AM
Can you put the first arrow where you want it every time? :archer2:
Every time? No not yet, but I'm working on it, and getting much much better at it.
I will always need practice, and groups are good for me for form and sometimes tuning, but my hunting practice is single arrow "groups", always trying my best to put it "close enough to kill"
Nice groups are great, and I find them extremely satisfying to put in the bow target, but I personally don't think "X" size groups are necessary to kill a deer.
I reckon Orion's right on to it with his answer above :goldtooth:
Best
Lex
I think group size is just one measurement but I think it's important to establish my effective hunting range. I shoot about 4-5" at 18 yards and I figure 18 yards or less for my hunting range. I only draw 43# at 28" with a 500grn arrow. The only worry I have about hunting at this point ( two years in) is the occasional flyer hunting, something I don't have with my compound.
I do think shots on foam animals is the best indicator of performance in the woods.
As been stated first arrow is the only one that counts in hunting.
Back in my younger days i might shoot 2 or 3 hundred arrows a day on a field range. Fast forward 40 some odd years later and i still shoot almost every day. Now, i may only shoot 6 arrows in a day....one at a time from different distances. Over 90% of those are in the "kill zone" (i like midlevel double lung shots). And i have figured out my comfort zone for distance after many years of trial and error! Stump shooting is excellent practice also.
Group size don't matter situation does...warm summer days on foam critters after several shots is a whole different situation than a cold November morning with no warm up shots...practice like u hunt :thumbsup:
ALL the above...plus I practice different scenarios, such as swinging to my target as if a deer is walking into a shooting lane with a fraction of a second to draw and shoot. Real life. Also I'll shoot one or two arrows then walk up or back and shoot again.
BUT as stated above I always consider the first shot of a session is the one that really counts and one day I'll take it at 15yds ( where I tend to shoot high ) the next session may be 25yds.
Mix it up, cuz ya never know what'll happen in the woods. You hunt from a treestand...practice from a treestand.
-Group size is one reference...note: consistent X sized groups at 20 yards not possible...only a handful of 300 NFAA scores have ever been achieved...scores start ing around the lower 260's is the entry level for world class NFAA scoring.
- 1st arrow released is an extremely important reference
- Scoring an 8.0 average on a typical 3D course is an average benchmark that signifies competency. However. there are many consistently successful and excellent trad hunters that cannot score an 8.0. They are successful since they both know and hunt within their own comfort ranges. In effect, they have had to improve their hunting skills.
- 1st arrow released reference is of paramount importance
-An average whitetail harvest is typically well under 15 yards...there are world class archers that are hesitant to take as shot in the field over 20 yards
- Confidence Confidence Confidence must be maintained before and during the shot execution...auto let down if confidence waivers
-Respect for the quarry must always remain number 1
The only time I use groups is to measure my consistency otherwise one arrow groups tell me all I need to know
The responses have been very informative here. I'm just trying to get a feel for traditional hunting, quite different from compounds.
I started with recurves 50 years ago for about ten years then went to compounds, but there was not much available information back then and had none of the gear that's available now a days.
For hunting season prep I shoot one arrow at a time and then go get it. I think that shooting a single shot that hits within 2 or so inches of the point of aim is a good goal and each shot needs to be a serious shot as if I am hunting. That would imply a six inch maximum group if I was shooting groups. If that is something that can be done at 15 yards then 15 yards would be my range.
That's just my 2 cents worth on the subject. I am sure that there are others that have more wisdom to supply.
I'd say I've found about 3 other guys is as big a group as I like to hunt with.. :bigsmyl:
The issue with shooting groups with instinctive is your brain corrects relative to the previous arrow. There is none of that when shooting game. I change distance and shoot at different spots on a target. I would look like a really lousy shot because the arrows are spread all across a blank target face like I can barely hit the target at all. Max. distance is how far I can put it within a couple inches of a minute feature every time.
I don't like to shoot groups because it damages arrows. Compare that to missing by a couple inches regularly and you see the difference between shooting groups and taking single shots. Groups is stacking them on top one another. Single shots is several inches across.
And that's on the same 3-d and target at home on the same little bit of yard. Shooting game or even a 3-d course opens it up for sure.
Quote from: smokin joe on August 25, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
For hunting season prep I shoot one arrow at a time and then go get it. I think that shooting a single shot that hits within 2 or so inches of the point of aim is a good goal and each shot needs to be a serious shot as if I am hunting. That would imply a six inch maximum group if I was shooting groups. If that is something that can be done at 15 yards then 15 yards would be my range.
That's just my 2 cents worth on the subject. I am sure that there are others that have more wisdom to supply.
I'm good with 6" total to 18yards so that's why I picked 18 as my max. I shoot best on foam animals or silhouettes, never liked spots with bows or handguns.
Under 4" at whatever range. If I can't hit within 2" of my POA then it's too far. If that's 22 yards or 12 yards.
Quote from: 1Canvas on August 25, 2021, 06:57:11 PM
Quote from: smokin joe on August 25, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
For hunting season prep I shoot one arrow at a time and then go get it. I think that shooting a single shot that hits within 2 or so inches of the point of aim is a good goal and each shot needs to be a serious shot as if I am hunting. That would imply a six inch maximum group if I was shooting groups. If that is something that can be done at 15 yards then 15 yards would be my range.
That's just my 2 cents worth on the subject. I am sure that there are others that have more wisdom to supply.
I'm good with 6" total to 18yards so that's why I picked 18 as my max. I shoot best on foam animals or silhouettes, never liked spots with bows or handguns.
A great traditional hunter said "spots don't lie. On a 3D animal we can talk ourselves into what is a killzone shot and convince ourselves it's a good shot ".
Either you hit the spot or not.
Spots don't lie.
Quote from: GCook on August 25, 2021, 09:40:19 PM
Under 4" at whatever range. If I can't hit within 2" of my POA then it's too far. If that's 22 yards or 12 yards.
I'm good with 6".
Apples & Oranges......
"Groups" are a compound thing. "Instinctive" shooting is about consistency....
Putting every arrow in the "kill zone" every time. I shoot 1 arrow at a time, Shoot it, and go get it.
If you hit it, Good! If you didn't, figure out "why" on your way to and from the target...
I shoot with a bow quiver & 4 arrows. 3 broadheads and a Judo, just like when I'm hunting...
I take one arrow out to practice, just like when I'm hunting. I start close, 10yds. When I can put EVERY arrow in the kill zone of my 3D deer target, I move back a couple yards. By deer season, I'm usually back to 25-30 yards. :archer:
I always have shot spots most of the year and move to silhouettes a couple of months before the season.
Quote from: 1Canvas on August 26, 2021, 01:36:30 PM
I always have shot spots most of the year and move to silhouettes a couple of months before the season.
I like to take a 3D animal to my set ups and have a shooting session or two that way as well.
Like Orion described, for most of my decades of bowhunting I've used the paper plate as my effective range indicator. I want all arrows on the plate at the distances I consider myself ready to go.
Important note, after developing a result-driven shooting problem that lasted about 10 years (1985-1995), I learned that the process should be the focus, instead of the result. My last thoughts are on follow-through and let the sight picture I imagined take care of the result.
When I could regularly hit a 6" paper plate from 20 yards, I took my recurve hunting. Regularly did not mean flawlessly. Just regularly. Out here, shot opportunities are rare anyway.
For me, "good" is good enough to go out. But it's never enough to give up trying to improve. Whatever it is, it can always be better.
Archery deer & bear just started last weekend. As usual, I'll spend a little bit of time in the afternoon flinging arrows into a hillside. If I miss a lot, I'll resolve to keep my shots closer that evening & the next morning. If I shoot well, I give myself the freedom to take shots out to my max of about 22 yards. Not that it usually matters anyway.
I try to shoot one arrow cold out of my practice stand. If it's a kill on the 3 D deer, I call it good. Then get down and shoot some just to get some quality reps
I stopped shooting groups many years ago ( also I don't like breaking nocks :biglaugh: )
I shoot a lot for form, but when I shoot for target I have several aspirin bottle caps stuck to my targets at different hights and distances,....one arrow per cap and rotate the sequence.
I'm lucky enough to to be able to have 9 3D targets on my one little wooded acre of heaven... 4 deer, 2 turkeys, a hog, a coyote, & a grouse. Once September comes, I take my bow on a walk around my homemade course, & shoot 1 arrow at each target. Then I pull 'em all, & go around again from different locations than the first "lap." I repeat as needed... Works for me....
I use a Ace blunt and a tennis ball. When you hit it, the ball can go from a few feet to 20+ yards and sets up the next shot. It helps me to determine whether or not my quarry it in range or not.
Good luck, shoot straight and God bless,
Rodd
I use grouping sometimes to check my consistency in form and release. If I'm grouping well after a few shots I move onto shooting for accuracy at different angles, heights and distances. For me distance is between 10-25 yards.