Just curious. How effective is using back of broadhead touching bow hand finger as release signal. I've heard that is what Howard Hill did.
I've tried this and like it a lot. I had a hard time tuning arrows though. Going to keep playing with it.
I've been shooting that way for about 20 years. I've had zero problem tuning wood carbon or aluminum. If you remember back 10 years ago some carbon arrow makers advised cutting the shaft the length you need then adjusting point weight to tune. Black widow used to sell the brass weights that screwed in to the tip insert or nock insert. I don't remember when 6-8" of arrow sticking out past the riser became the norm.
I've never needed the nock or added insert weights myself. If your to stiff go down a spine to weak go up not as difficult as people make it. Fine tune with point weight then get your broadheads to the same weight done.
Shooting net length arrows as Hill and John Schulz advised does a couple things. First you will have the same draw length every shot. Doesn't matter if your shooting straight up or down standing ,sitting or laying down. This makes your arrow trajectory very consistent which helps a lot with instinctive shooting. Second you don't look like a African bushman with 3' arrows.
Sometimes, most times, the solution to bow shooting problems have already been found, years ago. For some reason people like to re invent problems. The way I see it unless someone can out shoot Howard Hill or John Schulz I'll just pass on their shooting advice.
What would you use for a trigger or draw check when shooting target points?
I was wondering about this too. I was going to try a little piece or wire or something that wouldn't affect flight.
Purty sure Hill gapped, used a sight picture and referenced shaft. He was not just slinging or guesstimating arrow trajectory. He was using an aiming method. There is no doubt about that.
Shawn~!
Boy don't let Roy Rogers find out. :biglaugh:
With carbons I found some small washers to fit behind field tip. With wood you can use shell cases, find one that fits the shaft. 5/16" shaft a .32 cal case will fit, the rim of the case is the same as back of broadhead. The shell cases are some of the best stump shooters imo, for wood or carbon. You can add fishing weights to the primer pocket and make any weight you need.
You can also find field tips that are slightly bigger diameter than the shaft. 5/16" carbon and 11/32 field tip. You will fill the edge of the field tip as it touches your finger.
After a couple months you will probably not need the reference with field tips. You get used to the exact same draw. When hunting your usually taking one shot and aren't warmed up shooting multiple arrows like a practice session, so the broadhead touching your finger still helps. I shoot grizzlys a lot and you can even turn the BH horizontal and the squared back of the Bh will touch the riser and you don't even have to touch your finger.
If you find you have consistency problems with your draw length just stick with the field tip broadhead reference. None of these effect arrow flight, make no noise and you don't have to adjust them like a clicker with a string hanging off them.
Quote from: smag on January 21, 2021, 09:27:48 AM
Purty sure Hill gapped, used a sight picture and referenced shaft. He was not just slinging or guesstimating arrow trajectory. He was using an aiming method. There is no doubt about that.
Shawn~!
Pretty sure your stuck on the quotes from Hills book. He was a target archer for many years, he wrote about his target style. Things evolve and so did Hills shooting.
When you watch John Schulz shoot, your not watching someone that watched a Hill YouTube video, read a book about Hill or sat thru a seminar on shooting. Your seeing someone shoot that was instructed by Hill personally for months if not years. They were close friends and hunting partners. John was taught every aspect of the Hill style method of both shooting, and building Hill style bows aswell as hunting with them. John made Hills personal bows in the later years. Howard Hills wife wrote that John Schulz and John alone was the only person that shot the true Hill method. That includes Bob Wesley or Hills nephew.
If you watch John Schulz shoot you'll see there is no time to reference an arrow and certainly no time to line up a gap. It's just like the "how to grip the longbow" experts that say you should grip the bow on the side of the handle like a suit case? They have in their minds decided they knew more about what Hill wrote than he did. You will never find a picture of Hills hand on a bow griped at the side... ever. Why would Hill mean grip the side but never shoot that way or teach anyone else to shoot that way?
The only mystery to shooting like Hill or Schulz is not the technique. The mystery is why people can't comprehend what they see and read without thinking they know better than the ones doing the shooting. Feel free to shoot standing up straight with a straight arm and grip it like a recurve or whatever you want. Shoot 31" arrows with a 26" draw and put a level on your bow so it remains perfectly straight up and down when shooting. Hold at full draw for 10 seconds until the arrow tip is right where you want it. But you ain't shooting like Hill and you ain't gonna get the same results period.
It seems to me that as long as you reach your anchor point, it doesn't matter how that relates to where the point is. If the anchor is solid, the point position will be solid, whether or not it touches your finger. I try to concentrate on whether or not I feel that my aim looks good and let that trigger the release. Maybe I'm missing something.
Picture of Surewood shaft with shell casing blunt. Works really good for small game doesn't stick deep into stumps or dirt, my favorite stump shooting arrow tips. Built in draw check, you will feel the rim of the case when it touches your finger.
Another one of those "new ideas" this one probably was a brand new discovery in oh 1935 or so
Quote from: Sam McMichael on January 21, 2021, 12:58:01 PM
It seems to me that as long as you reach your anchor point, it doesn't matter how that relates to where the point is. If the anchor is solid, the point position will be solid, whether or not it touches your finger. I try to concentrate on whether or not I feel that my aim looks good and let that trigger the release. Maybe I'm missing something.
You can reach your anchor point, say corner of your mouth with middle finger, and be 1/2" or more from your full draw. Shooting uphill or down people tend to pull more or less. You have your back anchor point but the bow hand is not bolted to the ground. You can easily stretch and get an extra inch of draw length. You shouldn't need to be told that inconsistent draw length causes inconsistent shooting. It is after all why they sell 10 different clicker versions, to fix just that problem.
"Pretty sure your stuck on the quotes from Hills book. He was a target archer for many years, he wrote about his target style. Things evolve and so did Hills shooting."
So are you saying that the best plan for the average shooter who wants to get better is to skip Hill's evolutionary steps and jump directly to his conclusion?
John was a good shooter. Swing draw shooter and came to Hill much later in life. I dont think he shot like John much and certainly not shooting field.
Lots of what John thought as then is nowhere taught today and rarely is used much. He had a great memory for his arrow trajectory out to 100yds and could not stand with Howard even as an older man at the line.
Exibition he was good. Did HH shoot like him not one bit.
Smag
Quote from: McDave on January 21, 2021, 01:10:17 PM
So are you saying that the best plan for the average shooter who wants to get better is to skip Hill's evolutionary steps and jump directly to his conclusion?
It's pretty clear John Schulz did not start with any gapping style, there was no progression. John Schulz said so, John was taught by Howard Hill. Are you saying Howard Hill personally taught you a different style of shooting? If not then we can just skip all the "maybe he said, or I like it better this way, or doesn't work for me nonsense", and just go with what John said and did. Or shoot however you want.
It's not real difficult to understand really. If you want to shoot like H Hill or John Schulz the method, the practice regiment, how to hold the bow, how long your arrows should be everything is explained. You either put in the time to learn it or don't that's up to the individual
Quote from: smag on January 21, 2021, 01:44:57 PM
John was a good shooter. Swing draw shooter and came to Hill much later in life. I dont think he shot like John much and certainly not shooting field.
Lots of what John thought as then is nowhere taught today and rarely is used much. He had a great memory for his arrow trajectory out to 100yds and could not stand with Howard even as an older man at the line.
Exibition he was good. Did HH shoot like him not one bit.
Smag
I'd really like to know where you are getting your information. Howard Hill was a target archer for many years, also a exhibition shooter. He also was a hunter. The style Hill taught John was a hunting style.
You ask if HHill shot like him, I'm assuming the him is Schulz? Hill taught John so yes John shot like Hill not the other way around lol.
Where and when did you see John Schulz shoot "at the line" against Hill?
Just because the Hill method taught to John isn't used as much now in noway changes its effectiveness. Look at how the average shooter shoots now, do you really think they come close to John Schulz?
Have you actually seen Hill shoot in the old movies? Have you watched John Schulz shooting? If you don't think they are shooting the same something is disconnected. Where are you seeing Howard Hill field target shooting?
Unless you were taught personally by Howard Hill or can our shoot either Hill or Schulz we can disregard anything you have to say about how they shot period.
This is a horse that has been dead a long time ago, but continues to be beaten over and over. What we have is thousands of people over the years that try and fail at the Hill style taught to John Schulz. They either never put in the time and effort required, or tried some short cut or some modifications to the style. Then they are convinced that their failure is proof the style doesn't work. The problem with this conclusion is there are a lot of people that instead of attempting short cuts and modifications ,just listened to the man that actually knew Hill and knew how to shoot. They followed the instructions and found it not only works but is very accurate and the best style for hunting.
I have never once in my life met anyone that put in the time and effort, learned the Hill style, became good at it, and then decided a target stance and 10 second hold at full draw worked better. I have known about 50 people personally that tried and failed, everyone's failure was one of two things. Not practicing enough, or trying to modify the instructions.
To quote John Schulz( who actually knew Hill) "there's some that know and some that think they know" It ain't hard to see the difference.
You may think you know what yer talking about but HH did not shoot grapes off live people with instinctive shooting and broadheads. That's a simple fact. He shot fairly fast but had an aiming system. I say he gapped it at ranges he shot.
Shultz has a common old style hunting style shot period. Anchored with thumb behind ear. Little guy, good shooter.
Yeah, this has been dead as 5 Oclock. Come to the Howard Hill in June you show me how instinctive is going to with the $.
Nice to hang on to the old school. Its nagalistic but it wont put gas in the truck of Championships or buckles on yer belt. Not 1945. The best USA international archer before Brady does not even perk an ear. Bet you think he shot instinctive too. Please waste someone elses time.
HH~
Quote from: smag on January 21, 2021, 03:38:57 PM
You may think you know what yer talking about but HH did not shoot grapes off live people with instinctive shooting and broadheads. That's a simple fact. He shot fairly fast but had an aiming system. I say he gapped it at ranges he shot.
Shultz has a common old style hunting style shot period. Anchored with thumb behind ear. Little guy, good shooter.
Yeah, this has been dead as 5 Oclock. Come to the Howard Hill in June you show me how instinctive is going to with the $.
Nice to hang on to the old school. Its nagalistic but it wont put gas in the truck of Championships or buckles on yer belt. Not 1945. The best USA international archer before Brady does not even perk an ear. Bet you think he shot instinctive too. Please waste someone elses time.
HH~
So pretty much like I thought. You don't know Hill, never met Hill and cannot shoot like John Schulz or Hill. The one wasting time is you trying to convince yourself you know more about Howard Hill than his personal friends.
Lol so you think because the guys that spend time at shooting contests can't shoot like John Schulz means none can?
When did you see Hill shoot a grape off someone's head with a broadhead arrow, in your dreams?
You obviously think yourself some kind of H Hill expert. Please answer the million dollar, 50 year old question. Why did Howard Hill not teach John Schulz gap shooting? If you cannot answer that we can assume everything else you say on the subject is both fabricated and useless.
So in summary: You never met Howard Hill, never shot with him, never received shooting instruction from him. Yet you really think you know more about how he shot or taught others than a man that knew Hill, hunted with him, built bows for him and was personally taught from scratch how to shoot? That is a good definition of delusion.
Expect to be respected if you decide to join the gang, because the rule of respect is held highest of the few rules that apply. Tradgang.com has a zero tolerance for disrespect directed to anyone. If you want to disagree, then please do so in an adult manner. Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another, but it must be done in an honorable fashion.
Quote from: Roy from Pa on January 21, 2021, 04:11:55 PM
Expect to be respected if you decide to join the gang, because the rule of respect is held highest of the few rules that apply. Tradgang.com has a zero tolerance for disrespect directed to anyone. If you want to disagree, then please do so in an adult manner. Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another, but it must be done in an honorable fashion.
If you see a disrespectful comment, circle it so we can all see it. Just because someone is proven wrong, or that they are making up what they think are facts, is not disrespectful. The only disrespect I see is the disrespect to both Howard Hill and John Schulz by people make believing they know something they do not.
It was a reminder!
Your comments caused another thread to be closed a day or 2 ago.
"Among the thousands of archery friends and admirers of my late husband Howard Hill,if I were picking one to describe and explain Howard's methods in detail, I know no one who I would trust to do so correctly fully and in detail as I do John Schulz".
That's a quote from Howard Hills wife. It pretty much sums it up. It excludes every other person that shot with Hill, watched him shoot or read his book, including anyone on this forum or any forum, shooting tournament or anywhere else. Sometimes facts are hard to accept...but that doesn't change the facts.
Nice, stick with it. See you at the Howard Hill. I will be in the shootdown hard to miss this guy in a crowd. In fact last two years I think I been #1 and #2. Was not using John Shultz's method circa 1952 either. Yeah, I make my bows and their not Hill Style either.
Dont get this thread closed please Dave.
HH~
The only reason I'd see where this thread would be closed, would be some hurt feelings by people making up stories.
I'd call your attention to the original reason for the thread. How many people actually made a contribution to the original question, or the follow up questions? All I see is several people taking the thread on a side tangent with easily proven false comments. I also can't help but notice with all theses self proclaimed experts no one else had an answer to the original question, or the questions to the false comments afterwards.
Hopefully anyone with any interest in Howard Hill or how he shot a bow would see thru the ramblings of someone that doesn't even shoot a Hill style bow, never knew Hill, never shot with Hill and makes up his own stories about Hill?
Some people go on forums and make false comments about a subject they don't know anything about. Some people stick to the facts, and can back up their comments with facts. I guess that's just the difference in people.
Since you don't mind spending time taking a thread completely off topic and have no answers to either the original question or my follow up questions. Maybe you can take the 10 seconds to tell everyone how long you spent "trying" to learn the Schulz shooting method, taught by Howard Hill?
This might help.
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=131700.0
Smag, no disrespect, but this is a bowhunting forum.
Shoots are great, fun, and worthy practice....but not the main focus here.
And, I know a WHOLE LOT of instinctive shooters that constantly bring dead shite into camp. Most of them don't compete against other bowhunters, they congratulate them.
Just stay respectful, that's all we ask... Well, besides staying on topic. :goldtooth:
Btw, I hate typing on phones :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Dave,
If you have proper alignment, the "Magic T" I call it, your draw length should not deviate on up or down shots if you bend at the waist. Form is from the waist up.
I demonstrate this on the Bowhunters of Tradgang DVD, along with incorporating a double anchor for more solidity.
There's a lot of info on the form clock thread in the shooters forum about the "Magic T" aka proper alignment.
:campfire:
Quote from: Terry Green on January 22, 2021, 10:02:41 AM
Dave,
If you have proper alignment, the "Magic T" I call it, your draw length should not deviate on up or down shots if you bend at the waist. Form is from the waist up.
I demonstrate this on the Bowhunters of Tradgang DVD, along with incorporating a double anchor for more solidity.
There's a lot of info on the form clock thread in the shooters forum about the "Magic T" aka proper alignment.
:campfire:
I have no problems with draw length, form or hitting what I'm shooting at. I'm also not the one asking questions about shooting. I answered the OPs question about using a broadhead as a draw check or trigger. There is no possible way I could care any less about how anyone else does it. I use the same style Schulz was taught by Howard Hill. If someone has a different style or way of doing things that's fine with me. Why some people get so upset about instinctive shooting or Hills style of shooting I do not know as I am not a psychiatrist.
A few hundred people have viewed this thread and not a single person answered the OPs question except me, the rest took it off on another tangent. Wouldn't it be better to start their on thread on a separate topic that do not include the names Hill or Schulz so as not to upset themselves?
I do not take or ask shooting advice from anyone that cannot out shoot the person I am currently taking Instruction from. So unless you can prove to be a better shot than Howard Hill or John Schulz I'm not interested.
Maybe someone should delete this thread. I cannot remember the last time I've seen a topic go this far off the rails and into the ditch. I'm guessing the OP by now either is more confused than ever or has come to the point where he doesn't care about a broadhead used as a trigger, I know I am.
David, you did make a statement about shooting or I wouldn't have replied to you.
Since there seems to be constant issues, maybe Tradgang isn't for you.
This guy.
Draw checks are good for keeping consistant when one has issues keeping DL at anchor.
Bowhunting, I am quite sure I have shot more Whitetails than John Shultz ever dreamed of as they were about gone and some states had no seasons for them in the 1950's and only one deer limits in 60's.
Since Oct 1st 2015 I have taken 68 whitetails with selfbow almost exclusively. Take 8-10 of them every year and took 20 one of those years. When it comes to shooting game with a primitive bow and hunting i know maybe a couple guys in nation that have more harvests than myself i that time. So, I Know a pinch about bow hunting, I think.
Now, Shultz was a swing draw and fantastic shooter. Was his short infomercials. Some of his techniques were old for the time they were made. They were shooting game at that time at ranges from 50-100yds. Took quivers of arrows to a hunt. These methods ar just not accepted today by any bow hunters. They shot at running game. Just not accepted as ethical method. Times were different and I can appreciate this.
I watched got instruction by Dwight Evens in baseball and throwing. Did not make me a world class MLB right fielder.
Shawn Magyar~
RLTW
I would think using the back of the broadhead as a trigger would work fine if you need such a triggering mechanism. No different than a clicker for those who need such. At hunting distances seems it would be rather superfluous. Don't know if Howard Hill did it or not, and since there was only one Howard Hill it really doesn't matter. Just keep slinging them.. :archer2:
Back of the broadhead works okay as long as your hand is nowhere near the cutting edges when you drop the string.
My biggest challenge was doing this with field points. If I do my arrows well and make a nice, easy transition between the shaft and the point, then I can barely feel the back of the point at all -- it's all the same by feel. When I used 11/32 points on 5/16 arrows, it was much easier. But 11/32 points on 11/32 shafts was so smooth that I would sometimes imagine that I was feeling the point when, in fact, I wasn't quite there.
After a while, I just gave up and put clickers on everything. But I have an especially bad case of target panic
Broadhead set up to touch bowhand, i believe can be a very effective release trigger ( as well as a draw check). Just don't try it w magnus stingers sharpened on the backside. I have enough trouble getting my arrows really well tuned at whatever length they tell me they need to be.
As Yosemite said clickers are another alternative. As is feather to nose. They all seem to have their pros and cons to me.
My personal trigger ( and i alternate shooting with and without it) is a micro electric button that clicks when pushed. I keep it in the finger tip of a bowhand glove. I've found it very effective at helping me make a calm shot during a clutch situation like a 3d shoot or deer. Fun to try different things just to see what works best for you.
I did it with wood arrows and it worked great, just don't get too excited and over draw. :-)
Overdrawing and popping the nock off the string is my primary concern with this trigger and the main reason I haven't yet given it a chance. I shoot a clicker and sometimes I overdraw at first, the clicker goes off and I have to let down slightly to reset the clicker before executing the shot. Those that use this trigger, has this ever been a problem? The other concern I have with this is that I will wear a glove later in the season on my bow hand. I keep my string hand in a pocket with a hand warmer but on my bow hand I wear a glove. Sometimes it is a thin glove and when really cold it is a wool glomitt. Anyone have an issue using this trigger with a glove on or do you just always shoot bare handed? I've tried a bunch of different triggers including feather to nose, tab sear and handy clicker but I always come back to the limb mounted clicker. This thread; although it veered, has me wanting to give this type of trigger a try.
I named my Hill style bow model a "split vision longbow" after the way hill aimed, and he described this method in one of his books. Can you say he shot instinctively? Gap? Split vision? I think I'd say it would be rather difficult to perfectly describe unless it was shot by shot, situation dependent. His longbows were a part of him. You can usually tell what's up each shot in the videos. Hard to gap shoot coins flipped in the air.
HILL was LEFT EYE DOMINANT SHOOTING RIGHTY.......IMPRESSIVE !!
Anyone tried this Hill style? I'll tell you right now, I'm sure this is NOT a good basis for "instinct" and few would ever rival that ability.
Maybe it was just he was so stone cold good, that it's actually hard to say he did only one thing.
Some guys just HAVE "IT". A mastery of a subject or skill. They can describe it but few can match or copy "IT".
Hills descriptions are good, Schulz descriptions and video is good, but to actually get to that level of proficiency, the truth is not many do. The stories alone are basically almost unbelievable, but so awesome. It's what makes him the Legend.
Using the back of the broadhead seems reasonable, Hill describes it as well.
With a Hill style longbow, the difference in the amount of limb tip movement is very small where draw lengths differ. So consistency is not hard to obtain without using an arrow point to finger... so if you use a 68" bow, draw 27.5", then the next shot you draw 28"....the difference in limb tip movement and velocity will be extremely small. It's automatically a forgiving bow to shoot..
Is there a difference, yes, a couple fps, but typically not enough to blow a shot.
Hill shot super heavy bows. Twice my draw weight. The arrows were screaming, makes arrow drop less of an issue as they weren't all that concerned with FOC or arrow weight unless going after the more dangerous game.
Flingblade---( great handle by the way!) Good point on the nock popping of the string and something to be cautious of. I once saw a guy stringwalking press the nock into his glasses and pop it off the string, dry firing his bow.
Overspined--- i shot exactly that way-- left eye dominant and right handed. Anything i shot at that way was in big trouble--- as long as it was 2 or 3 feet to the left of where i was aiming. It never worked for me and i started shooting left handed. I always wondered how someone made this work.
With the amount of bickering so far along the way, it is a little difficult to remember that the original question was about who finds that using the back of the broadhead as a shot trigger is helpful.
I'm not good at using all these psycho triggers. I've tried the broadhead to finger thing, I find I draw different lengths depending on my body position, shooting down, flat, on my knees etc. so it made it weird. I think it would be cool tho.
When I tried it I was touching the broadhead on the riser.
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on January 24, 2021, 09:19:33 AM
When I tried it I was touching the broadhead on the riser.
I think for many modern handles where the forefinger is not almost touching the arrow, that would be the only way one could use this method. The same caveat would apply, though, to be careful not to pull the nock off the string at full draw. It would probably work better than broadhead touching forefinger if the shooter is wearing gloves which would make it difficult to feel the touch.
From your comment, I take it you're not still using this method. What did you not like about it?
The first time I tried it I couldn't get the tune right. The arrows got way stiff. I went down in spine,and got some good flight,but gpi went way down. I tried it the other day with a particular bow and an aluminum arrow and had great flight and it felt good all the way around.
I'm headed on a hunt in February so I'm not going to fool with my set up now, but when I get back I'm going to start trying again.