I know this has been discussed many times. And I know that you have to bend at the waist and so on when shooting from elevated position. However, after making a conscious effort to bend, and I don't get very high in trees anyways usually 12-15 feet, I still consistently miss deer high. In fact I can't remember ever missing a deer any other way other than high.
I managed to miss one high last night from my tree saddle, in the saddle you are literally already bent at the waist in order to shoot from it so I was baffled again. Considering changing my aim point to the bottom of the vitals rather than the middle. Thoughts?
Do you practice from an elevated position? It sounds like you might be miss judging yardage once in the tree if it happens constantly.
I agree, things tend to look farther away when you are in a tree. Could be subconscious. I agree, shooting high from tree is common. I shot alot from trees when I was younger, no issue now.
It might not be a bad idea to set up your target at specifically marked distances from your elevated stand. Shoot while on the ground picking your spot as normal. Then shoot while elevated using your same sight picture. Do your shots go higher? As long s you are bending at the waist, etc. it is probably not a form issue. At longer range, I do try to compensate by shooting just a little lower.
Like Ryan stated, things look further away from an elevated position. I have a ladder stand set up behind the house for practice. Over the last couple of weeks a couple of my buddies have shot at my deer target from the stand (about 14' high). Both shot over the target and stuck in the wood pile behind it on their first shot. I asked them how far away the target was and they both felt that it was 20 yards or a maybe a bit more. The target is 13 steps from the base of the tree, so somewhere between 11 and 12 yards.
Also, if I don't pick a small spot and stay focused on it I will shoot high, even on a level shot. Another thing that I have to work on is that on a close (10 yards or less) shot I have been known to raise my head or "peak". I think that because the shot is so close I think I can't miss so I raise my head to see the arrow hit.
This year I had all of my stands set early and I took my bow and a couple of judo point and picked out a leaf or weed near where I expect my shot at a deer to be and took a shot or two. On morning hunts I will shoots at a leaf right before I climb down. If I miss, I spend some time in my practice stand before I go back out for the afternoon hunt. Good luck!
Agree with the target and treestand practice, no substitute IMHO. It's kind of a learnt trait with stick bow shooting from a tree and I think everyone is a little different on this. Shooting up a grade or down a hill is also good practice if your stand placement is like this.
I have heard this many times in the backyard, when there was a ladder stand set up, "Roll the bow over when shooting down from a tree stand, keep your eye over the arrow and pick a spot."
Could be a combination; misjudged distance, peeking at the shot and perhaps deer ducking a bit. Personally I focus on the belly line and have not shot over a deer yet.
:campfire:
I have noticed since switching from split to 3-under with a glove, this problem got a lot better for me. I shoot a lot off my back deck which is about 12 feet high and I almost never miss high, at least on targets. I suppose my eye is closer to the arrow.
In addition to what's already been said, keep in mind, too, that if you aim center body from an elevated position, you're already too high. Looking down from above, you see part of the opposite side/top of the deer. Visually, then, the center of the mass that you see will be shoulder height or higher, when viewed from above. The higher the hunter, the worse this angle becomes. Regardless, focus on picking a spot lower on the deer, probably 1/3 the way up from the bottom. This doesn't leave very much to look at toward the bottom of the deer.
That's the reason I seldom go higher than 12 feet and shoot from a sitting position. To keep the angle down.
Archery, bang stick, or hand tossed rock, it's simple geometry, a basic triangle. Uphill or downhill both reduce the distance to the target. How much depends upon the angle.
Quote from: Soonerlongbow on October 06, 2020, 03:37:48 PM
Archery, bang stick, or hand tossed rock, it's simple geometry, a basic triangle. Uphill or downhill both reduce the distance to the target. How much depends upon the angle.
+1. To expand a little on this. If you aim based on the line of sight distance, you will miss high because the trajectory of the arrow is based on the horizontal distance. You could figure out the trigonometry, if you wanted to, but it would change everytime you change the height of your tree stand. For me, it's enough to know that it's real and not based on some form error (although I make plenty of those). If I'm aiming at a standing deer at a down angle of 40-45* at 20 yards line of sight, it seems to work out if I use the bottom of the deer's chest for my point of aim rather than the kill spot.
Quote from: McDave on October 06, 2020, 05:38:28 PM
Quote from: Soonerlongbow on October 06, 2020, 03:37:48 PM
Archery, bang stick, or hand tossed rock, it's simple geometry, a basic triangle. Uphill or downhill both reduce the distance to the target. How much depends upon the angle.
+1. To expand a little on this. If you aim based on the line of sight distance, you will miss high because the trajectory of the arrow is based on the horizontal distance. You could figure out the trigonometry, if you wanted to, but it would change everytime you change the height of your tree stand. For me, it's enough to know that it's real and not based on some form error (although I make plenty of those). If I'm aiming at a standing deer at a down angle of 40-45* at 20 yards line of sight, it seems to work out if I use the bottom of the deer's chest for my point of aim rather than the kill spot.
:biglaugh: I cheat and just use my rangefinder. But since my range with a stick bow is so short, I just do what you said and aim at the lowest portion of the ribs. Also means I either clean miss or if it drops I hit lung. Margin of error.
I'm glad you guys mentioned practicing from the tree. I made it a point to practice from the tree saddle a lot this summer and shot at least once a week from it at about 12 feet up in my yard. It is a lot of fun to shoot from and I rarely if ever missed high during practice. I'm guessing I misjudged yardage last night in the excitement still was a fun hunt. I'm going to take advice and use the bottom chest as my aim point. Thanks for the responses.
Since when practicing you stated you seldom miss high makes me think the deer are jumping string, when we miss it is always high. a deer can drop something like 8" in .1 sec. it takes roughly .2 sec for a typical bow setup to shoot 13 yds. so factoring a deers reaction time, whatever that is, do the math. I try to gauge the deers demeaner and shoot where they are gonna be. Most bucks here in South Arkansas act like they are over-caffinated and jump string id say 80% of the time. anyway i always pick a spot at the very bottom of the deer. works for me.
Yes. Where white and brown meat or just a little above.
Quote from: trick00 on October 06, 2020, 08:14:25 PM
Since when practicing you stated you seldom miss high makes me think the deer are jumping string, when we miss it is always high. a deer can drop something like 8" in .1 sec. it takes roughly .2 sec for a typical bow setup to shoot 13 yds. so factoring a deers reaction time, whatever that is, do the math. I try to gauge the deers demeaner and shoot where they are gonna be. Most bucks here in South Arkansas act like they are over-caffinated and jump string id say 80% of the time. anyway i always pick a spot at the very bottom of the deer. works for me.
My hunting partner used to video his hunts when he had some small bits on a couple pro-staffs and shot wheel bows (his conversion to one string is now complete).I helped him clean a doe he shot @ 20yds on video. The deer had a hole just behind her rib cage really low on the right side, and another high on the left side just in front of the the back strap almost into the neck. Shot was broadside on right side, at the shot she turned 180° & entered low and exited high. On video her body is almost parallel to the ground. Freakiest Matrix stuff in real life I've ever seen!
I aimed low - bottom third - mid 70s through mid 90s.
92 I think I started using Flatbows and Longbows and noticed right away deer do not react to the shot. Most at least did not move until the impact of the arrow and maybe a few react less and moved a little that I didn't pick up. So I used these more and more and by 2002 I have not hunted with a recurve.
I do not shoot at deer that have picked me out - ever. I do not shoot on food plots.
And to this day I can't remember that last time a deer ducked ?? Been a long time. I aim about center of mass front half of the deer pointing at the off side armpit - Done!
If the deer is out away from the tree, I aim lower than I would if I was on the ground...but not below the chest of the deer. I just tend to pick a spot a little lower than if the shot was horizontal.
Now if that deer is close to my tree, I aim spot on.
If you don't bend at the waist you will shoot high . I aim in the middle be hind the shoulder it hits where I look . (sometimes)
For what little it is worth, I agree with McDave. I aim 4 inches low at 20 yards when shooting from a tree stand. On an average-sized deer that means right about at the bottom of the deer's chest. If you don't bend at the waist your draw length will decrease and result in a lower trajectory. So it is an exclusive-or situation. If you are going to aim low then you MUST keep your draw length the same by bending only at the waist. I find it helps to focus on sticking my butt out when shooting down.
Stick a big one!
JMC
Quote from: Tim Finley on October 06, 2020, 10:14:32 PM
If you don't bend at the waist you will shoot high . I aim in the middle be hind the shoulder it hits where I look . (sometimes)
This. Interesting topic. I have always assumed when I missed over the top of a deer that I failed to pick a spot. I do consciously bend at the waist when I shoot from a tree stand.
I know deer duck to to take off quickly when they hear the shot sometimes but I still think my failure to pick the spot is the culprit.
A nationally known bowyer and I were discussing this once and he thought the key was getting "on top of the arrow"
A guy I work with who does not hunt and I were talking about this earlier today and I had told him what happened. His response was why don't you just aim lower. Seems like a simple solution. I've always been a "look where you want to hit" guy and seems sometimes it works okay and others I'm too high. I'm going to quit banging my head off the wall and just pick a spot lower. Can't hurt anything at this point :goldtooth:
Though bending at the waist may change the draw length a little, the change in draw length is not enough to affect arrow placement at 20 yards and in. What bending at the waist does accomplish is maintaining proper alignment between bow and shooter so that whatever sighting/aiming system the shooter uses stays the same.
As I noted earlier, I still think the main reason for high hits is the fact that when viewed from above, the center of the deer, which is where we tend to aim on level ground, is just about in the center of the back, because from above, we can see part of the offside of the deer. Thus, when we shoot for center of the body from an elevated position, we're pretty much shooting at the top of the back. That's why it's important to aim lower.
And, as some have noted, deer sometimes do jump the string. That almost always results in a high hit or miss.
BTW, folks don't have the same problem shooting uphill, though the angle may be the same. Shooting uphill, they tend to shoot low. Perhaps that's because they can see more of the underside of the deer and less of the top. Visually, that moves the center of the deer down, accounting for the lower hits and misses.
And let's add the issue of being seated for the shot, not standing. Adds a whole nother problem for me if I haven't remembered to practice that position. :dunno:
Though I have been restricted to ground hunting since 2008, I have 30 years' experience hunting from a tree stand.
I adhere to the following:
-Ascertain where the arrow will exit the animal prior to the picking the spot...typically, focus on a specific spot... and pick a specific spot 2 to 3"s lower in anticipating deer drop when loading up to quickly escape.
-shoot the horizontal distance the same as I do on a severe upward or downward hill shot.
-Bend at the waste and, just as important, maintain the same head position. The tendency to have a higher head position at full draw when bending at the waist is prevalent. Very high shots are the likely results....Must maintain the same head set position that was instilled shooting on level ground.
Note: I do not aim lower since I was hunting from an elevated position.
Good thread! I'm learning... kinda thought to aim a little high on both uphill or downhill shots. Had it backwards! Fortunately, no deer were arrowed by the error in logic.
Not bending at the waist is the main culprit.
If you lower you bow arm instead of bending at the waist you have taken away your proper alignment. In doing so, your sight picture is altered and you will shoot hight. I bet your windage is fine, but your elevation is an inch or two high over the back.
I told a good friend of mine (Doug Johnson) this info above after he relayed to me that he kept shooting high over deer. I verified this was the issue after I told him to get up in the stand and draw down on a certain pinecone.
The next weekend the nailed a nice 6 point from his stand. This guy had no issue shooting of the ground with hogs or bears.... but he was altering his 'Magic T ' by not bending at the waist.
Check and see if that is your issue.
I have shot a bear 70ft up a white oak while only being 6 foot from the base. Shot 21 peasants out of the air (one straight over my head. Hogs and deer both above and below me and one severely above... never have to aim high or low... aim the same at all of them.... and u shoot instinctive.
I'll find the pics and pics of the last one as soon as I can find them.
This is a great angle from way underneath...
I took this pic from where I was standing...the doe was on the crest above...
[attachment=1,msg2934178]
Note not only the entrance but the broadhead sticking way out just almost breaking the skin...
[attachment=2,msg2934178]
The angle destroyed both lungs, diaphragm, and heart... she made two bounds and I heard her fall over in the dried leaves about 5-6 seconds later.
[attachment=3,msg2934178]
Here in Texas most folks will tell you to aim low. Most of the time deer will drop on the sound of the string thump or the arrow in flight. I missed a doe last year from an elevated blind. She dropped low enough at 15 yards the arrow sailed over her back by three inches. Still calm days are worst for that. Still, I'd rather aim low for a heart shot and if they duck then I get both lungs.
Terrys' right its the alignment if you don't bend it actually changes you anchor pt. making you shoot high.
We have a perfect tree stand tree in our back yard. A friend of his wanted to try out his new stand on it. He had instructions. After about an hour it was finally up, complete with the proper safety harness. The deer target was set up about 15 yards out, they were about 15 feet up, 20 degrees give or take. He shot his three practice arrows, all of them high and left. Tried again, all of them low and left. My husband went up and put 6 arrows into the heart about as fast anyone could take six good breathes. He made one major mistake, according to him, he forgot to use the safety harness. They had the harness set so tight to the tree that they could not bend into the shot. The other day a deer came by our friend while out hunting from his tree stand, he missed high, twice. The same day a doe, a yearling and a fawn came up to spend time with my husband, sitting on his Nifty seat with only the tree he was leaning against for cover. It was close, he said that he tried to spit his chew pouch over the doe, but he spit low.
Great thread. What are your thoughts on bending a knee along with bending at the waist on standing shots? I find it is more comfortable.
I personally don't bend at the knee. I prefer a stable platform as I can get.
Let's put it this way. My tree stand is about 12-15 yards from where my shot opportunities happen. I gap shoot. If I shoot from the base of the tree, my point is a couple of inches below the deer's chest. If I shoot from the stand my point is on their feet. Don't overthink it, practice both and do what works!
Quote from: Tim Finley on October 11, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Terrys' right its the alignment if you don't bend it actually changes you anchor pt. making you shoot high.
Yep. Very common error. Not sure it's just an anchor point issue. Alignment between bow and string arm as well is affected. Even shooting on level ground having the back elbow too high or low will affect impact point.
Just a few days ago I threw a target out off my deck. 18 feet high. The target was about 12 yards from the base of the deck. So, the angle was steep. When I shot my longbow, which seems to cant much more naturally than any of my recurves, I drilled the target right where I was looking. When I switched to a recurve, I shot high. I assume it has to do with the longbow not being cut to center and that forces me to cant the bow. John Schulz talked about the importance of canting. I use to think bow length made a big difference but in my experience it is not as important as canting. For what it's worth. I've missed over a dozen big bucks by not canting the bow.
Justin
On the recent shooting lesson, one scary thing happened. My husband had the guy up on the tree stand he just bought. The fellow said that he preferred standing in tree stands when he shot. He had on a harness. He could flip up the seat on his tree stand, Copper Outdoors?, just for that reason. After shooting high several times, he was told to bend and cant the bow. When he bent at the waste, he was too close to the tree and his butt against the tree pushed him off balance. Try it, stand close to a wall or door jam and bend over. If your feet are too close, you will fall forward. Like I stated earlier, our friend had two shots at a live deer and still shot high.
How does canting affect your vertical impact?
I've hunted trees since 1970. When I've missed (except for 2) the shot has been high. I'm certain I failed to pick a spot in those instances. The 2 that weren't high were to the right after switching from a closed left eye shooting RH to shooting with my dominant left-eye and both eyes open. I think in those two cases I closed the left eye out of habit for shooting RH 28 years.