Please share any experience or opinion regarding the use of small 3-blade heads like the Montec, Hellrazor, etc out of bows in the light 40's, for deer hunting.
Appreciate all replies, as I'm thinking of going this route this year.
I'm pulling a full 28" and 40 pounds. Shaft/head weight is 405 grains with 100 grain heads. Tuned very well.
Best regards, Skychief.
PS. If you would recommend any other 100grain 3 blade head without replaceable blades, it would be appreciated.
I suppose they'll get the job done if everything goes right, but it often doesn't. Obviously, a smaller 2-blade head would penetrate better. I also think there are other 3-blade heads that would penetrate better, the Woodsman, for example.
The Montec and Hellrazor are short/stubby heads and don't have the mechanical advantage that a Woodsman has. They were designed for wheel bow shooters, and, given their more efficient and generally higher poundage equipment, they don't have trouble pushing those short heads through critters. Not as easily done with a low weight trad bow.
One can find several examples of anything, so I'm sure someone will provide anecdotal evidence of their lethality on deer size critters. Wouldn't be my first choice though.
I agree w above. You're limited to a lighter poundage. Shoot a head designed for that for best results. The heads mentioned aren't them
Only 3 blade I'd use from that light of setup are Valkyrie!
I would not use montec .. very poor angle off attack, VERY POOR. Plus they are made of powdered metal making them a terrible choice all around.
Stick with Wensel woodsman or vpa. Montces are trash.
Gene and Barry made the ww for lightweight bows, so their profile works for your setup.
If all you are after is deer, no worries on a fomatible 3 blade.... hogs and elk, different story.
Deer are nothing but a grocery bag full of shaving cream, tinker toys and a ball joint. Just stay away from the ball joint. At 40#s your not going to get through the ball joint with any head.
I am gonna throw in my 2 cents worth here.....
I have gone to lighter weight bows in the last few years, 38, 40 and 45#'s. I normally only shoot 2 edge BH's but decided to try a 3 blade a couple years ago and went with a WW. My 2 blades have almost always given me through and through penetration at 20 yards and under with the 40 and 45 bows. The first deer I took with the WW at 20 yards did not go through. It very well could have been my angle as the second deer with that set up had the BH protruding out the far side. These were both shot with carbon arrows with about 20% FOC and moving about 180 fps.
I dont know that I can draw any conclusions for myself based on these two incidents. However, I am going to continue to shoot my 2 blades from 40# and down and will reserve the WW for 45# and above.
By the way, are you the same Sky chief of the Sky-Chief shot load for smooth bore muzzle loaders ?
Would like a some clarification before commenting....
Are you shooting a total arrow wt of 405 gns or 505 gns????
Thanks for the replies.
Friend, my shafts with 100 grain heads weigh 405 grains total. Give or take.
Huntschool, yes Sir, I'm Skychief in muzzleloading circles too. You caught me!!!
Best regards, Skychief.
A very lethal setup for deer can easily be obtained from a 40# bow with the right arrow. Deer hunting with a 405 gn arrow, IMO, is far too light and an inferior choice whether shooting a 2 blade or three blade BH.
Have experience in setting up multiple hunters with 40# bows...building their arrows and guiding them to successful deer harvest...all arrows were at least 520 gns and used 2 blade 250 gn VPA's. All exhibited complete pass thru's and short recoveries. Note: Shot placement is key...lighter hunting draw weights require a heavier arrow. I have not tested the lower limits of a 3 blade.
The game we pursue deserve nothing short of our best efforts.
I missed the 405 grains... no worries if ya shooting 50#s, but gotta agree with Friend. 12 grains pp would be better, i.e. 480 grains.
Zwickey No Mercy for me out of my #44 Sitka. Blew through this pig like hot knife through butter. 10gpp.
The type of bow really matters. A 40 pound Hill style longbow is not the equivalent of a 40 pound super recurve, or even a fast hybrid. An efficient, fast bow that gets every bit of possible energy out of the limb and transfers that energy to the arrow will do a better pound-for-pound job.
I am shooting a very efficient, high-performance bow at 45 pounds, and I have every confidence in hunting with razor-sharp, well-designed three-blade heads like the Wensel Woodsman.
Yeah Joe, your bow is like a 50 pounder, I know, I've shot it!!!...you got no worries. Can't wait to see the smack down you put on one
Right, Terry. I know I am getting good performance from the Centaur. It is a heck of a bow.
Thanks for all the replies and thoughts guys.
I'm using a vintage Bear Black Bear recurve. No speed demon, but no slouch either.
Really appreciate your time and thoughts.
Best regards, Skychief.
Quote from: blacktailbob on August 24, 2020, 11:46:48 AM
Zwickey No Mercy for me out of my #44 Sitka. Blew through this pig like hot knife through butter. 10gpp.
Congrats Bob!!! Gotta love them Zzzzzzsss!
Why is 9-10 grains per pound draw weight ok on heavier bow but not on light ones?
ANY sharp broad head with a properly placed hit will kill a deer.
It is tough to see this type of post so often.
All 40# bows are not equal. A 40# Covert Hunter is a lot different than a 40# Bear Grizzly.
There is no magical, clearly definitive, minimum line.
When in doubt, go with the two blade. No one ever complains about over penetration. Deer shot with arrows that remain partially in them tend to run farther and longer.
If you want to hedge your bet, try a Zwickey Eskimo four blade
Kelly...Momentum is a primary key factor in determining arrow lethality - not kinetic energy
Keneticis Energy is possessed energy in all directions. The KE calc focuses on velocity as it is squared in the equation.
Momentum is directional force and is primarily driven by mass weight and is far less impacted by velocity.
Extreme example: being hit by a ping pong ball travelling 150 mph or a 100 car train traveling 5 mph would produce catastropically different outcomes.
A typical 40# bow shooting a 400 gn arrow would likely produce momentum at a marginal range for pursuing deer, especially if less than an ideal mark is made.
The 10 GPP so called rule is actually a better guide line for protection of the bow itself. The 10 GPP coincidently produces adequate momentum for hunting arrows in the 50# range in pursuit deer sized quarry. Note: Many bowyers in the past voided the warranties on bows shooting arrows less than 9 gpp.
Note: A typical 40# bow can have an properly designed arrow that will be consistently prove lethal and penetrate bone on a water buffalo... that arrow would have a gpp over 25.
Quote from: Kelly on August 24, 2020, 09:32:13 PM
Why is 9-10 grains per pound draw weight ok on heavier bow but not on light ones?
Kelly,... the 10 grains per pound pertains to the bow and arrow and protection of bow long term and is a general guidline for said combo.... not hunting/game/head options.
Friend;
Based on your PM a fairly quick locomotive would be the best of both worlds. A heavy object in motion is harder to stop. Using .37 slug Ft/sec as acceptable thin skinned game figure. Momentum numbers approaching .50+ would surely be acceptable. I have never one to worry about the lower end of the spectrum.
:campfire:
Great post Scott. Momentum...... yes. Much more than KE.!!! Preach it brother!
Quote from: Terry Green on August 25, 2020, 04:34:53 PM
Quote from: Kelly on August 24, 2020, 09:32:13 PM
Why is 9-10 grains per pound draw weight ok on heavier bow but not on light ones?
Kelly,... the 10 grains per pound pertains to the bow and arrow and protection of bow long term and is a general guidline for said combo.... not hunting/game/head options.
This will be my 59th year bowhunting and way back when(early to mid 1960's) I first heard about this 10 grains per pound arrow weight it was all about hunting and penetration. It had nothing to do with bow safety. Back then the majority of bow hunters used 40-45# bows and quite frankly most never even cared about arrow weight. Very few made their own arrows, went to the local mom and pop archery shop in their house and purchased matched arrows, 6 with field points and 6 with their favorite broadhead. There were many types of two, three and four blade broadheads and all these combos killed lots of game.
Don't wish to derail the subject matter of this thread so this will be my last comment.
Many bowyers in the past have voided the warranty for bows that shot arrows less than 9 gpp.
I have a friend who shoots Simmons Shark two blade broadheads after switching from Woodsmans, the sharks cut an unreal wound channel and have two blade penetration to boot.
If I was shooting low 40's I'd use at least a reasonably efficient bow, get a good shooting carbon arrow set up with narrowed down Snuffers (I'd target 1-1 1/4 inch diameter), and go deer hunting. Something like a woodsman would be similar. For deer I wouldn't worry too much about arrow weight as long as it's reasonable. I know of plenty whitetails killed with this type setup.
Bow hunting was around long before "FOC" became a buzzword (or religion??).
:biglaugh:
R
That's an interesting point of view, Ryan. It is exactly what I have done. I shoot 45 pounds because I have had both shoulder joints replaced. My bow is a souped up Centaur. I shoot carbons. My three-blade heads are 1.25 diameter (125 gr Snuffers). And my hunting arrows fly like laser beams.
I use 40# bows at my shortish draw length of 26 1/2". Ive taken a bunch of our big whitetails with everything from a little less than 10 gpp to @14 gpp. Ive used mostly 2 blades. My arrows are well tuned and my broadheads are very sharp. 400 grains is not too light for our big corn fed whitetails.
Kelly, lighter bows and lighter arrows are more efficient.... got it....
[attachment=1,msg2929653]
Here is my Granddad's arrow, John Everett Green, care to guess the weight bought from a mom n pop store in the 70s for his Browning Nomad????
Somehow the original poster mentioned 40#s which seems to no longer be the discussion. Having coffee with Scott :coffee:
Rifleman do you have any documentation of said kills? I'm getting older and need to drop down soon but don't want to resort to gin powder. Please provide pics Thank you.
I knew VPA had been getting lighter and lighter heads. I went to their website,and they are showing a 100 grain head.
Above was to answer your question,but I used a bow that missed weight to kill my first two animals that was 45 at my draw with a simmons head. That was a good combo,it was a lot heavier than 100 grains though.
I prefer to use a heavier bow but a series of injuries had me shooting 45lbs , 43 at my draw, with 440gr total weight arrows. Wensel heads gave me pass throughs on 3 of 4 deer I shot with them. The non pass through was on a buck quartering away and I pulled the shot and went through one ham and into the other. I did recover him.
Gotta love good sharp 3 blade heads.
:campfire:
That set up would probably be better off with a larger two blade head, which is a nice compromise. Something like a Zwickey Delta.
Madre what exactly are you trying to say? Check out the 40# and 45# threads i think i posted some pics there.
Arrow in this pic was just a bit under 400 grs. 5/16 cedar arrow. Madre, you can search through threads if you need more " documentation".
Thanks for sharing rifleman.
You're welcome Sky-chief. Be confident in your set up. It will work well in the whitetail woods. Good luck this season.
Quote from: Skates 2 on August 27, 2020, 07:44:44 AM
is this the same Kelly Peterson that wounded nearly 20 elk non recovered????
Where did you see this, Skates?
Total Fake News since I've only shot at three elk and killed all three, each with a single arrow.
Quote from: Madre Man on August 27, 2020, 07:21:53 AM
Wow Kelly, you've been around here since the beginning and I'd love to see what all you've killed since then. I did a search and you never posted a hunt story or kill. Please provide. Thank you
1965, 42#, no idea of arrow weight. Doe died within 25 yards.
[attachment=1]
2009, 42#, 540 grain 3 blade 160 grain Snuffer, holes on both sides.
[attachment=2]
Sky Chief, you shouldn't have any issues with your setup as long as you use a cut on contact broadhead and your arrows flies straight and true. My suggestion would be to use a heavier arrow.
I'll be bowhunting this year with 40# or less and 500 grain arrows tipped with 3 blade broadheads(either Snuffers or VPA)
Below are pictures of my sons first couple deer when he was 12 and 14 years of age. Keep in mind that my son was less than 100# at that time and only drew the bow around 25".
35# @ 28", wood arrow tipped with 3 blade Penetrator broadhead, no idea of grain weight.
[attachment=1]
40# @ 28", wood arrow tipped with Baby Snuffer, no idea of grain weight.
[attachment=2]
Hey KP! Wondered about those 20+ elk, was gonna call and get some elk hunting tips :biglaugh:
Amazing the stuff folks come up with on the interwebs.......
I remember that Iowa buck. Bout a 3 minute blood trail there.
R
Not that many years ago I couldn't understand the threads were men would ask about the weather their setups were enough to get the job done efficiently . I thought if you're in doubt , shoot a heavier bow and arrow.What man shoots less than 50lbs ? Now with age and injuries I get it and am thankful for these threads. I'm going in for back surgery in a week and I will be lucky if I can get in any of bow season ; NY goes until Nov. 20th. this year. I bought a 36lb limb set (to meet NY minimum) :pray: with the hope I can at least catch the end season. I've got it tuned up with skinny 400 grain arrows and 2 bladed heads. I find it reassuring to see were others have successfully used light bows with either 2 or 3 bladed heads.
Back surgery in a week!! Idk, I'm certain I'd take this season off.
I injured my shoulder, didn't have the surgery and I couldn't draw a bow for two years.
Good luck with your surgery and swift recovery.
Even if it means using a walker to get a 100yds from the house to sit on a bucket with an old man's weight bow the idea of not being in the woods in November is just not conceivable to me. In keeping with this thread I remembered my wife took a mature doe with a bow less than 40lbs with a stainless steel _SNUFFER a couple years ago . I don't like their stubby length but it worked for her.
Some guys simply don't know what they don't know; no real world experience--just notions. A 40# bow is plenty adequate for deer-sized critters and has been for centuries. How much momentum, KE, speed, arrow weight, do you think is needed to push a sharp broadhead or stone point 8" deep in a deer's chest (double lung hit) anyway?
Many years ago in PA my dad killed a good sized doe with a 25# fiberglass bow, SEARS wood arrows and a bear head. So it is possible. Think the shot was @10 yards as she walked past him.