I want to go back to gmu 27 (Az.) for Aug/Sept archery season but I'm kinda "skeered" to because of this covid crud. Im in Louisiana so its a long trip but I'll be alone. Should I not go?
How successfully can you social distance, both during the hunt and while traveling to from the site? If you can keep clear of potential disease carriers, you probably can stay safe. With that being said, I am still staying at home and wearing a mask whenever I go where people are. If you choose to go, GOOD HUNTING!
Hey Ronnie. Mike Rowe, the "Dirty Jobs" guy, has an excellent piece on his FB page right now. It's long, I only took in the first few paragraphs, but spelled out his take(and mine) regarding the Covid. My daughter and s-i-l drove here last month and stayed overnight in a hotel while on the road. Not many are traveling right now, so there is time for hotel staff to clean up. JMHO YMMV ETC.
What you really have to stay on top of are local quarantines. When an area low in covid considers people coming in from an area high in covid, they will often order a two week quarantine for people coming from the high covid area. Since most people don't have two weeks to spare, this can put a crimp into a trip. I just cancelled a trip into Wyoming to meet my wife after a backpacking trip she is taking for this reason. I don't know if Wyoming will have a quarantine when I want to come, but they have in the past, and I just don't need something else to worry about.
Our numbers have started to level off agian. Most businesses require a mask to enter. As for accommodations I would recommend carrying your own linen. Another option is one of those lights that kills germs. To hot to sleep in your vehicle and it wouldn't be any cooler when season starts.
After five months of constantly hearing the do's and dont's you are asking us if you should go on a hunting trip?
Personally I wouldn't hesitate to go. It's a hunting trip so you won't be around people anyways. Take precautions at the gas station and if you go shopping at some point but otherwise go for it. If school gets shut down because of all this, and I expect that it will, I've been exploring my options out west and will definitely be making an attempt to go if I can!
Ronnie, what are driving out there? Pickup, suv, van? When I drove out to Colorado, I drove an extended cab pickup. Pulled into a rest stop with the 18 wheelers, tilted the seat back and got about 6 hours sleep. If I were to to it again I would probably put a cap on the back with an old mattress or a good foam pad and sleep in the back. Van works well too. Drove my wife's minivan to Quebec back in the '80s and if I got tired I pulled into a Tim Horton's, climbed in the back and took a nap. Throw a single burner LP stove in the truck, a cooler with some bottled water, some bacon, bread, coffee or whatever you like and cook on the tailgate. Minimal contact with others and cheaper than a motel and eating fast food. Good Luck >>>----------> Mike
Quote from: Mike Bolin on August 03, 2020, 03:33:43 PM
Ronnie, what are driving out there? Pickup, suv, van? When I drove out to Colorado, I drove an extended cab pickup. Pulled into a rest stop with the 18 wheelers, tilted the seat back and got about 6 hours sleep. If I were to to it again I would probably put a cap on the back with an old mattress or a good foam pad and sleep in the back. Van works well too. Drove my wife's minivan to Quebec back in the '80s and if I got tired I pulled into a Tim Horton's, climbed in the back and took a nap. Throw a single burner LP stove in the truck, a cooler with some bottled water, some bacon, bread, coffee or whatever you like and cook on the tailgate. Minimal contact with others and cheaper than a motel and eating fast food. Good Luck >>>----------> Mike
Mr Mike has it figured out! :thumbsup:
I say go Mr Ronnie :archer2:
It's not and has not stopped me from hunting or fly fishing. But I have zero comorbitities and a healthy immune system. Same as my 80 year old mother that just kicked cov's butt.... as did both my sisters, brother inlaw, niece and nephews.
Only you can make that decision based on you history and knowledge. My wife is a nurse and has been in the middle of it since the start, plus insite from a cdc friend here in GA. So we don't rely on the so called 'news',
Guys I'm a construction worker working on big commercial jobs. I just did a 9 floor remodel in a real city area. Now I'm working on big additions in 2 nursing homes. I worked completely through the worst part with some other fellows. We had to go to supply houses, Home Depot's, worked with all kinds of guys from all over.
Bring some alcohol gel for your hands and go. Should I add I'm not wearing a mask most times. I can't see and it's hot. The 9 floor job was over a hundred on the ground floor. No openings, window walls and no ac.
Be sanitary as you can be and go. Don't let the media screw up your life
Ronnie,
This is a great website with great people, but you might be using it for something out of its scope.
Looking at the numbers (not at the news), the situation is bad and possibly getting worse. I work with infectious diseases, but I will refrain from answering your question on an archery website. Rather, speak with a doctor about it, and listen to their professional advice. They will probably ask you such questions:
Quote from: Sam McMichael on August 02, 2020, 07:04:29 PM
How successfully can you social distance, both during the hunt and while traveling to from the site? If you can keep clear of potential disease carriers, you probably can stay safe.
But go and talk with a professional, so you can make an informed decision, and, if you end up going, you can minimize the chances of getting infected.
Hope it helps.
Max
I would like to add:
Some people posted great advice in my opinion, while I disagree with some others. But telling a good advice from a not so good one sometimes requires technical expertise. That is why I would suggest to talk with someone you know has that expertise.
Best,
Max
Yeah, you might want to find the video of the doctors at the capital that got banned that are experts.
Madmax... can you show us an actual photo of the virus? A slice preferably? I haven't been able to find one since this mess started, and have requested over a dozen times from "infectious disease experts" with no luck. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Terry Green on August 04, 2020, 11:50:15 AM
Yeah, you might want to find the video of the doctors at the capital that got banned that are experts.
Madmax... can you show us an actual photo of the virus? A slice preferably? I haven't been able to find one since this mess started, and have requested over a dozen times from "infectious disease experts" with no luck. Thanks in advance.
Hold on, I have one, it just might be too high resolution to post it here. Let me check it out.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation online, and it is a shame that even some people with biological science degrees have resorted to shortcuts to advance in life. That is why, when in doubt, refer to the official government agencies. Especially with a new disease, there might be doubts and uncertainty even within the scientific community. A government agency (such as CDC) has professionals who weight the available evidence and issue the best recommendations given the current state of knowledge.
I am sorry the situation got so politicized in the US. It is such a shame. Please, do not take my statements as trying to attack any memeber of this forum. Every one of us has their own expertise. I would not be able to perform heart surgery, nor to repair my car engine. I lack the expertise to do either.
Here it is:
[attachment=1]
This image comes from the CDC. It is an electron microscope image of the coronavirus. The spherical viral particles are colorized in blue. They contain cross-section through the viral genome, seen as black dots.
I personally work on the genome of the virus, and where I work we have sequenced the genome from patients in Florida. There is no reasonable doubt that it is the same virus infecting people around the globe.
I do not want to go off topic. If it is of interest to TradGang members, and if the admins allow, maybe later I can start a topic talking about the virus, trying to steer away from politics.
I just want to say, stay safe. Politicians come and go, regardless of what color they are wearing. We have to take care of the people we love.
Best,
Max
Great... you are not showing an exo are you?... but instead a micro?
Sorry, what is an exo?
the only gov't i trust is the .45-70
when elected officials - you know, our employees - tell you they're doing something to make y'all safe, always replace that "safe" word with "controlled" and you at least will begin to understand the truth.
to each their own. i had the virus, it was miserable, i lived, i wasn't the least bit concerned because at age 74 i have a Great immune system with no serious preexisting health issues. i did my research, and it wasn't easy to wade through the main stream media, which i quickly learned to fully dismiss and avoid. also to avoid are those claiming to be medical "experts" who don't tell the truth let alone the entire picture of a "pandemic" from start to present.
the disease ... when there is an unknown pathogen, the first thing medical scientists do is perform the "gold standard" test. this is medicine 101. it was never done for "covid-19", nor was koch's postulate invoked and satisfied. the USA simply took the word of the chinese as gospel. no genome sequencing accomplished, either. look it up, all fact. yes yes yes, there is a toxic particulate floating about out there and infecting LOTS of folks. it's just not as killer deadly as we've all been told to the point of ridiculous lock downs, social distancing, and the insanity of thinking that mask wearing is a form of virus protection or spreading inhibitor when in fact it's no more than a feel good pacifier.
the RT-PCR virus testing has been and still is a major scam. don't think so? like taking the word of the "experts"? the PCR test inventor admonished its use for "virus testing" it's that bad a test. there is no direct test for toxic particulates (virus) and it's worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack. so what about all those millions of quickie "covid-19" PCR test positives? testing positive for What?? geez louise.
the depth of true information about "covid-19" not given to the public by our employees is criminal. there's more than enuf to fill volumes let alone a large book. our employees have become our employers.
Americans have been fooled about this "pLandemic" because it was politically weaponized and scaring the beegeezus out of honest citizens worked well, as they expected, and they learned the real value of psychological Control.
so ... to hunt or not to hunt? to each their own. if it was me, and i was ready to hunt, hells bells i'd be HUNTING. and no, i do NOT wear a mask.
as they say, YMMV! good luck!
it should be of great interest to see that an exosome is the clone image of a "coronavirus".
[attachment=1]
Quote from: madmaxthc on August 04, 2020, 12:37:32 PM
Sorry, what is an exo?
Huh????... thought you said you worked with infectious disease. Did I miss something? Certainly could be, I've missed things before.
Hi, Rob,
I am glad to hear you recovered.
Those are all good questions, but my lunch break was over some time ago :knothead:
I will come back tonight and answer your questions.
Terry, I think I understand now you were referring to an exosome, correct?
I'll talk with you tonight.
Have a nice day,
Max
OK, I'm back.
To start with, please consider that here we cannot hear our tone of voice, nor see each other's facial expression, so I hope we can reason together even if we disagree. I never meant to attack any member.
Also, I would like to go back to one of my previous statements: "it is bad, and it might possibly be getting worse". Looking back at the data from the last few days, the cases might have started going down, but I would wait a bit longer before being sure. The situation is still bad. This is of course at national level; the situation varies from state to state.
Now let's answer to Terry's and Rob's comments.
Part 1:
Exosomes are produced by our cells machinery for a variety of reasons. Viruses, which do not have their own machinery, hijack the cells to replicate and make more virus. So yes, viral particles and exosomes look similar, and some viruses even leave the cells through the exosomes, to go and infect new ones. However, we can analyze what proteins and genetic material is in the particles. We can analyze the genetic material in what "may look like an exosome" and verify that is not human.
Let me make a step back, bear with me, even if I might be saying things you already know:
Humans, parasites, viruses, bacteria, they all have genomes, which are made of nucleotides. Nucleotides are basically the letters with which the genome is written. The genome is the manual of how to make an organism, and is in each of our cells. Our genome tells the cells where you should grow hair, muscles or bones, and how to make them. It tells your organism to make you blonde or dark, male or female. Segments of the genome can be called "sequences".
PCR and sequencing allow to check what kind of genomic material we are dealing with. If we are sequencing or PCRing a tumor, it can tell what kind of errors are in the manual, and therefore how bad the tumor is. If we sequence a virus, we can tell what virus that is.
I am not sure where the statement that the coronavirus has never been sequenced, or that PCR is not an adequate tool comes from.
One of the strengths of science is that no matter how famous of a scientist you are, if you make an unsubstantiated claim, the scientific community will race to prove you wrong. The virus has been sequenced independently all over the world, and so has the human genome. You can get those sequences from public databases, and compare them to other viruses, and to human DNA. Think about it, how would coordinate a conspiracy involving scientists from independent groups, often in competition with each other, from the whole planet?
I hear some say the disease is caused by some kind of toxin. What kind of toxin? How would the toxin spread from person to person worldwide? What I mean is: let's say I have the disease, and I have 10 toxin particles. I spread 9 of them to other people? How do other people spread them to the next one? They would need somehow to replicate. How would they?
Part 2: How does PCR (polymerase chain reaction) work? How can it find "the needle in the haystack?"
The PCR works thanks to short fragments called "primers", which attach specifically to certain sequences. If you know your target sequence, you can use primers which are specific to the sequence you are looking for. Then a protein, called polymerase, replicates the target sequence in your sample, til there's enough of it that the results can be read by a machine, depending on what kind of PCR you are using, e.g. RT-PCR.
Now, how can you look for an unknown pathogen? A solution is sequencing. Put enough random primers in your sample, one of them will hit the mark. Of course you will end up replicating all sorts of sequences, including the ones from the human. After that, you will have to look at all the sequences that are in there, and find the ones that are not human. What do they look like? If they are viral sequences, you have found a new virus. If they are bacterial, you have found a new bacterium. It's a lot of work.
One of the advantages of sequencing is that allows us to discover microorganisms which we are not yet able to culture, or for which there are technical obstacles to keep in laboratory animals. This was not possible in Koch's time, but science and human knowledge keep advancing. Also, we know now that some people can be asymptomatic carriers of a disease. Yours was a great observation regarding Koch's postulates.
OK, this is what I've got for now. I look forward to your observations, and hopefully other members will chip in. Also, there are probably other TradGangers who work in biology, I look forward to their comments.
Best,
Max
dr. andrew kaufman is an MIT graduate in molecular biology, among his other medical credentials.
an excerpt from a video conversation ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKGaQjl3SMY
Ronnie I met with my doctor for my annual physical the other day and I discussed this at length with her.
I plan to go to Missouri in November as usual. She advised that I go only if I had no symptoms, am fever free for at least a week before travel and that if possible I avoid anyone there with symptoms just as I should here at home. She gave me significantly more information about the virus and this misinformation I needed to ignore but I'll leave that for a private conversation if you'd like.
Go. Hunt. Live life to it's fullest. Invite a friend to share the experience.
OK, I believe my previous explanations on sequencing address most of the issues in the video.
While the original sequencing was done as I mentioned, by sequencing everything (defined as whole transcriptome sequencing), the virus has been isolated and sequenced multiple times ever since. The cell cultures are even available from the CDC. Still, Dr. Kaufman does not explain how the same virus is found again and again worldwide, when there was no trace of it prior to December 2019. Regarding the testing, no test is perfect, and molecular biologists constantly work to improve them.
Regarding the "hypothetical genome model" and "gaps filled in automatic from the database": just no. That it is not how it works, that is not how we do it. If there are gaps, they are left in there, till we can fill them through additional experiments. And you can find very often sequences with gaps in online databases for many microorganisms; they are just parts we have not defined yet, and we do not hide it.
Looking more closely at Dr. Kaufman credentials, from his website, he is a psychiatrist. He has no peer-reviewed research work in virology.
To explain a bit better why this is important:
as an example: if I have to review a peer-reviewed scientific article in immunology, a closely-related field (not a similar one) to mine, I might have to study it full time for a week. And even then, I might not have the ability to review it critically as much as an immunologist would. That is how specialized science has become nowadays, and necessarily so. That is why research groups staff have diverse expertise.
I appreciate reasoning with people like you, Rob and Terry. You try to expand your knowledge and are not satisfied with a simplified explanation. That is honorable. That is commendable.
What discourages me is people like Dr. Kaufman, who use their degree to spread false information. He is a psychiatrist with no experience in virology research, yet he spreads his hypotheses for which he has no scientific evidence. Not a single experiment, nor a scientific publication to back his claims.
You can find my publications in infectious diseases here:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Tagliamonte+MS&cauthor_id=31588431
Not a wide curriculum (yet), but I'm working on it. Nights and weekends included. Currently working on the coronavirus as well. While Dr. Kaufman plays his fantasies on youtube. It upsets me, as his actions might lead people to get sick and possibly die.
One thing I would suggest, do not limit your search only to sources which agree with you. Explore the ones which do not agree with your opinions. Look at your ideas, and try to pry open the weak points. If some parts of the idea does not make sense, either the idea is wrong, or you have yet to find the proper explanation for them. Either could be.
Wish you luck in your search for truth.
Best,
Max
Madmax.... food for thought. Thanks.
Lots of talk about cases on the news,... a lot of them are false. Not much about talk about death rates cause the low rate doesn't fit the narrative, even though lots of those numbers are false as well. I personally know about those two as to be true on more than one instance. As, well as the cdc employee stating the news is cherry picking.
The odds are that me, my wife and daughters, based on health history, are more likely to die of a car wreck by far. So, we aren't going to stop driving or living.... but, we are not being wreckless about it either.
Everyone has to make that decision on their own whether they go and do, or not. No one else should make that decision for you.
Good morning from not so sunny Florida at the moment. Gotta run.... taking the girls kayaking this morning.
[attachment=1,msg2927538]
all of this points to the real problem - extremely complex issues that very few humans can barely understand.
this means than 99.9999999% of all humans will have to choose who to believe, who to have faith in.
the scientific medical industry has become the new god, and there are lots of religions surrounding this new, never before seen god.
choose wisely, your life and the lives of others are on the line, and not just for medical issues.
Last two posts were good ones
Quote from: Terry Green on August 05, 2020, 07:52:45 AM
Madmax.... food for thought. Thanks.
...
So, we aren't going to stop driving or living.... but, we are not being wreckless about it either.
Everyone has to make that decision on their own whether they go and do, or not. No one else should make that decision for you.
Good morning from not so sunny Florida at the moment. Gotta run.... taking the girls kayaking this morning.
You're welcome, Terry. You're right that there is a lot of misinformation around, and even scientists will have a clearer view as additional research emerges. You are right that we should not stop living. Zero % risk does not belong to this world; however, try to play it safe and minimize the risks. That we can do.
I wish you to enjoy the day with your family 👍
Quoteall of this points to the real problem - extremely complex issues that very few humans can barely understand.
this means than 99.9999999% of all humans will have to choose who to believe, who to have faith in.
the scientific medical industry has become the new god, and there are lots of religions surrounding this new, never before seen god.
That is a very good point, Rob. It made me think. I am not able to make a broadhead, but I am able to judge which ones are more likely to work with my bow. And if I get it wrong, next time I can buy from someone else. If I step into a plane though, I have no idea how to drive it, nor why anything works the way it does. I'll have to sit still and trust the pilot. That lack of control is scary.
It is certainly true that the medical industry moves huge amount of money, and that is dangerous. Making sure the consumer is protected is certainly a challenge our generation and ones to come will have to face.
Quote
choose wisely, your life and the lives of others are on the line, and not just for medical issues.
On that we agree
Thank you both for allowing this exchange. May the next one be about bow and arrows 👍
Best,
Max
Yeah Max... and the number of malpractice deaths should cause us to ban doctors..... 😁
Take care guys... anyone interested in a hunt early next year, check out the Laredo thread.
Quote from: madmaxthc on August 04, 2020, 11:26:07 PM
.... What discourages me is people like Dr. Kaufman, who use their degree to spread false information. He is a psychiatrist with no experience in virology research, yet he spreads his hypotheses for which he has no scientific evidence. Not a single experiment, nor a scientific publication to back his claims. ...
... While Dr. Kaufman plays his fantasies on youtube. It upsets me, as his actions might lead people to get sick and possibly die. ...
i hesitated to reply to your post but your attack on dr. kaufman is egregious and if anything, not in keeping with trad gang policy. you and i are most certainly allowed our opinions and the right to say yay or nay, but there is no need to poke sticks with slanderous comments such as what you typed in your above quote. if anyone did the same to you, they would be at fault as well.
i would suggest that you spend a lot more time investigating the credentials of dr. kaufman. he is more than well qualified in understanding the pathology of infectious disease. he has outlined his assertions with vetted documentation. if you disagree, the onus is on you to proof his beliefs as false, not dismiss or diminish his person.
this is not the venue for further discussion. PM or email me if necessary.
Just be smart, not much more worry going there than going to the gas station or grocery store where you're at,
Go hunt. By all means live your life sir.
At any point in time, with or without the current virus, we are all walking around with a 50/50 chance that we may not see a tomorrow. Even a microbe can take us out at any time.
If you are healthy, go hunt and enjoy!
Just my 2.
Quote from: Terry Green on August 05, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
Yeah Max... and the number of malpractice deaths should cause us to ban doctors..... 😁
Take care guys... anyone interested in a hunt early next year, check out the Laredo thread.
LOL, Terry 😅
I will check the Laredo post, I wouldn't mind to meet with TradGang memebers for a hunt.
Rob:
Thank you for your comment. I tried to weight my words, but I must admit frustration took its toll. I sent you a PM.
Take care you all.
Max
Quote from: madmaxthc on August 06, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Rob:
Thank you for your comment. I tried to weight my words, but I must admit frustration took its toll. I sent you a PM.
Take care you all.
Max
thank you for your reply and understanding.
r.
I really appreciate how thoughtful and respectful this thread was. A similar thread on another archery forum devolved pretty quickly into hundreds of "you're a sheep" vs "no you're an idiot" type comments with no real information or discussion.