Over the last 8 years I have really enjoyed Traditional archery and bowhunting. But, I need to be honest with myself After numerous injuries and setbacks I've found that after these issues I am not as proficient as I need to be. Bowhunting is a rush and very fun, I cannot hunt with Trad equipment if I don't have the time to put in the proper effort to be proficient. Now, the question, what is proficient ? I am very deadly to about 15 yds, then things get iffy. I believe that because of my 3 shoulder surgeries That I cannot maintain good form with my draw arm. I am thinking that the draw arm issue is the main culprit as to why things get crazy at 20 yds or so. So my question is, before I throw in the towel and go back to a wheelie.....I know, I know. How far do you guys think is an average shot distance for bear and whitetail while stand hunting ?
I've had a lot of deer within 15 yards.
The thing I'm thinking about is that it might be in your head. If you are good at 15 it shouldn't be a shoulder issue to shoot at 20. Are you drawing and holding the same at 20?
I know for me it's a mental thing when the shots get further. It's also out eyesight.
Over the years of my hunting career, mostly in the Southeastern US, the majority of my hunting shots(guns included) were under 50 yards and most of my archery shots were between 8' and 20 yards. I like getting close and in tight areas. If you are proficient at 15 yards, stick to 15 yards and under. I'd almost be willing to bet most archery kill shots are less than 20 yards anyway.
17-18 yards has been my longest shot. The close ones measured in feet are tough to stay focused.
:coffee: :campfire: :thumbsup:
Rarely do I shoot past 15. And I like 10 better....
I'd say keep on huntin
Tim B
Thanks for all the reassuring posts. Think I will keep at it for awhile. Getting bummed I wasn't going to do something I really enjoy
Where I setup to hunt, the furthest shot would be 15 yards.
I shot a deer one time at about 5 feet.
That's part of traditional archery, getting up close and personal. :thumbsup: :archer:
Three whitetail and a bear last year.....all under 16 yards. I don't remember my last 20+ yard shot on a deer/bear.
Thanks for the reassuring words guys, now if I could get that trade for a widow worked out !
I usually try and set up under 18 yards if feasible and a tree is available that I can use under 18 yards or so.
If your not hunting from a tree or one is not available thats usable.Setting up on the ground is the option and you can very close on the ground.15 yards or less is no problem with good cover and picking the right moment to draw.
Most my animals have been taken at less than 20 yards for sure.
Its pretty common for trad archers to shoot game at 15 yards or less.So I think your good to go in many situations.
Just have to blow off the longer shots.No big deal.
I figure I'll get a share of negative reaction from this but, I set my recurve up with a single sight pin mounted to the back surface of the riser. A lot of folks use the "gap shooting" method and I don't think a single sight pin is all that sinful. It allows me to take 20 yard shots with confidence and 25 yard shots when everything is right. I have tried time and again to shoot bare bow but I have never been able to meet my accuracy criteria for hunting. The sight pin changed all that. I can hit 4 inch groups at 20 yards consistently with a 64# bow. That's what I need to take the caliber buck I hunt. Where there is a will there is a way.
JMC
When I'm scouting, if I can't find a viable stand location, i.e. climbable tree within 15 yards of where I think a game animal will be, I look at other options. While I feel I'm very proficient on inanimate targets at 20+ yards, a live animal at more than 15 yards seems like a long shot to me. I don't really keep track of the distance to every kill shot, but I think my average is easily under 15 yards. I think the "sweet spot" for me is about 12 yards :thumbsup:
I'm enjoying closer the better as a challenge nowadays. Was a time I didn't like shooting under 20 yards now I'm good with 20 feet!
You say that you are deadly out to 15 yards. You also say you are good for 20 shots or so. If you have enough self discipline to limit your shot distance you are good to go. There is a very well respected and successful hunter on this forum who has stated that most of his kills are at 10 - 15 yards. Maybe you are not out of the game after all.
Without saying anything to make it seem anything braggart. I've shot some bears (All close) but hundreds of Whitetails I'd guess. Been at it over 40 years, as a kid I'd shoot over 10 a year most years.
Almost none were over 20, most were prob 15 or less I'd not be lying.
As a kid on my first successful hunt, I had no real mentor as my dad didn't hunt, it was always a neighbor or someone taking me. Never anyone exclusive. It's ok but the point is on this particular morn I remember freaking we were getting in at daylight. It was too late for me but almost instantly I started seeing deer. I was really young and started taking longer shots than I should have. I missed everything and emptied my quiver save one arrow.
I got down and collected them. I found 2, both dull imo.
So that night I stated seeing deer right off soon as I set up, I only figured I had one arrow. The sharp one. I kept passing shots. Finally a doe n fawns came to 10 yards. My shot was true but I vowed never to take long shots. Since than I've taken very very few. If 15 yards is your effective range than you're doing fine. I expect to see pics from this year. Hang in there.
Remember life is a series of adjustments. Make em and move on.
Why would a compound do better? If it is the sights put them on the stickbow and hunt.
Also agree it is probably mental. Same form at 20yds that works at 15yds. Maybe slowly work back to 20 one yard at a time.
15yds and in for me.
sounds like 15 yds is about the average for everyone....maybe im good after all !
I'd say 95% of my deer are shot at under 15yds. I've only shot one bear, and it was right at 15yds. I'd keep hunting if I honestly thought I was good enough at 15yds. Just don't take a 16yd shot!!!!!
Bisch
If you go to many 3D shoots most of us should keep our shots 20 yards and under.
I live and hunt in the West and I shoot instinctive so I don't worry about yardage now that being said I like close shots nothing over 20 yards. Keep hunting with the stick if it helps drop down in bow weight.
If you are good at 15 but not at 20 I don't think it's a physical issue. Maybe a matter of focus. That being said last winter I took the longest shot at a deer in about 10 years. Killed a big doe at about 16 yards. Took my best buck earlier in the season at 11 yards. The previous 6 deer were about 6-9 yards.
So stick with it. 15 yards is a long shot for me.
Your maximum shot distance from stand should be based on your shooting abilities, whatever they may be. I have killed deer and bear from stands at distances from 0 yards to 30 yards.
Well Gary, what a crowd??!!
You can just be like me and never shoot at deer. Problem solved. You know that I know the area you hunt. Be patient, pick yer shots. If you're just after meat, there's plenty of roadkill.
I shot my first one in five years of this latest round of traditional last year. 18 yards.
This is my third attempt at traditional. Previously I tried instinctive and was not accurate enough. Likewise, I got frustrate at watching deer walk by at 25 yards and beyond. Even 4 years ago I became frustrated at deer beyond my range and took out the compound in the last week only to shoot one at 15 yards. Should have stayed with the recurve... Since then I have been only taking the recurve but have moved my stand to allow for closer deer travel.
In the last two years I have had deer walk right under my ladder stand.
I had shoulder surgery back in 2004 in February. I was shooting and winning 3d by June. I'd reassess the whole issue. It is seldom the drawing arm that's the problem, after all, you're "aiming" with the other one. :coffee:
I want my deer as close as possible last two I got one was 5yds (my stands are usually 10' high) and one was trotting by at 12yds,,, when the deer come in and look like they are going to work in closer then wait its part of the game getting them so close you can hear them breathe.. you need to feel the confidence before you shoot its like that gimme feeling when your at a target shoot you just know a target is going to be easy you need to feel that same thing on the live thing,,,,,, if you start doubting yourself or thinking your not sure about the distance then let it come in closer or walk off that's how I hunt,, I do watch more deer than I kill but I go home feeling pretty good about the shot or the show.
with that being said I'm friends with 3 people who do everything with stickbows except hunt,, they go to denton hill and other shoots, stump shoot and you never see them with their compounds but come deer season that's how they feel confident so it is what it is.
Honesty is good! Helps you get to where you need to be. If you are enjoying trad archery, then shoot to your abilities. Now you know what they are. Animals at under 15 are the coolest and most rewarding/exciting in my view anyway.
Hey Charlie you do know where I hunt ! The winds are very fickle with all the hills and bluffs. Hard to see a buck routinely coming in at 10 yds then the winds change and he walks by at 20-25. I just think my confidence is rattle pretty bad. Think I have to just take a strp back and get bavk to basics. I did better when I was younger when I had no instruction and just shot without a care in the world.👍
Hunt with whatever pleases you. I hunt with a self bow and 15 yards is what I like. Jawge
We all know that 17.3 yards is max effective range for Trad gear anyway!!!
:campfire:
I have a bit of a different opinion on the issue. I would guess it is a confidence thing. I have went through the same dilemma. If you think you are going to miss at twenty then you absolutely will. Hard to get past that I know. Positive mental outlook helps immensely. One thing that has helped me increase range is doubling the distance I shoot for practice. Shooting 40 makes you feel super confident at 20. I'm not saying shoot 40 exclusively but step it out every day for a few shots. Having traveled to lots of shoots and seeing others shoot I would say I'm a slightly above average shooter. No all star by any means. I feel confident to 25 yards, sometimes further. However I keep my shots at game under 20. I passed a good P&Y 2 seasons ago at 18-19 yards Standing still in a field. Just didn't feel right on that day. That being said 95% of all my game killed has been 15 and under. Most less than 10. Keep flinging sticks.
I try and keep my shots under 20, more like 15. I practice at 20 and 25. I usually spend a good bit of time at 25 right before deer season. However. Each practice session I start out at 5, then 10, then 15 etc... Helps me get a feel for my yardage.
The last few deer I have taken were all about 15 yards.... good enough for me. Trust your safe/comfort zone and have fun...
Quote from: valleysniper on July 09, 2020, 08:26:41 AM
Hey Charlie you do know where I hunt ! The winds are very fickle with all the hills and bluffs. Hard to see a buck routinely coming in at 10 yds then the winds change and he walks by at 20-25. I just think my confidence is rattle pretty bad. Think I have to just take a strp back and get bavk to basics. I did better when I was younger when I had no instruction and just shot without a care in the world.👍
Gary, you gotta get out of you're head. Just shoot have fun and remove the pressure you put on yourself. Remind yourself you will not starve if you dont get one. Ultimately we are there to enjoy it. If you cant enjoy it farming and gardening is a cheaper option for food lol.
I try to not shoot marked distances, just what distance "feels good " at the time. Hunt pretty thick stuff so 20-25 yards feels like 50!!!
:campfire:
A moderately skilled stand hunter will likely have more than three times the shot opportunities as a moderately skilled ground setup hunter.
I am solely a ground hunter...I took passes on 35 solid shot opportunities on bucks 14 yards and under last season....took passes on 12 solid shot opportunities on bucks from 15 to 22 yards last season...
The right shot for you can be realistically had.
Thanks for everyone's words of advice and encouragement. I think I'm going to start at about 10 yds and slowly move my way back. Just trying to clear my head and regain my confidence
the whole idea of bow hunting to me is to get close. Last year I killed 3 deer (2 bucks and 1 doe) and my farthest shot was 15 yards . the buck in Canada was at 8 yards and the home place doe was 6!
I love trying to hit a 3d deer at 40 yards when I go to non specific weapon shoots , that is really fun but Hunting to me is a lot more than flinging the arrow . that is a the last step in a successful and smart set up .
If you can't accept the fact that a lot of times you are not going to fill that tag with trad gear , than you should probably stop trying .
I passed up my target buck last year when he was at 23 yards. That was the one and only time i saw him from a stand. No body got him last year so now I get to look forward to out smarting him this year!
I definitely don't need to shoot 40yds or even 30 for that matter. But at 20 yds I would beleive its not unacceptable to expect some degree of accuracy. I can get plenty of deer in close. But have missed many chances at 20 and just over. I always hear to enjoy the hunt, everyone does this differently. To me, I hunt to kill big bucks, I started traditional to add some challenge. Not handicap myself. Sorry if that ruffles some feathers but ill say it again, I hunt to kill game otherwise I'd take a camera
I'd guess my average shot is close to 10 yards, I prefer 12 to 15 and longest was 20 shortest and best buck was at 3. I'm guessing it's mental , I'm pretty good to 20 after that it goes to pot.
When I started hunting with a Trad bow I limited myself to 15 , that's what I was comfortable with at the time.
I've read a variety of surveys taken by FW agencies. This data is probably 15 years old but the average kill distance for traditional was 12 yards and only 17 yards for compound. I can say, after 51 years of bowhunting, those numbers ring pretty true for me with both types of equipment. Of my last 6 deer with recurves, only one was longer than 15 yards and that one was 21 yards.
What style shooting do you use...instinctive, gap, etc.?
I've always kept my shots close. Even with firearms I prefer shorter shots.
That said, with modern equipment, hunters are taking game at 500 yards and out with precision rifles, out to 100 plus yards with compounds and even here and other traditional forums guys boast of taking game at 40 yards with traditional bows.
The vast majority of my bow kills, even before switching to traditional equipment, were under 20 yards. Yes, I have taken one buck in Missouri at 35 yards and a few deer and pigs out to 30 but I like to be close. I set up close to the feeder, trail or field edge. Sometimes that means being mobile with a ladder stand or folding tripod stand.
With a traditional bow I set up 12 to 14 yards. I've only taken a couple animals over that and they were still only 17 and 18 yards. Pigs.
I practice out to 25 but most of the time my "long range" practice is sitting on the cable connection box in the back yard and it is 18.9 yards from my targets. Come September the majority of my practice will be sitting at 12 to 16 yards.
That close a minor form or release imperfection or even an animal movement may make you miss your spot by an inch or two. At 20 yards it's four inches or more.
For me being danger close to the game is what really gives me the thrill. Even animals I don't intend to shoot.
My advice is to hang in there and limit your shot range.
Valley
I think like you! I hunt to take the best buck my area has to offer. In central PA, norther NJ and southern NY that is at least 16 inches inside spread, 8 points and 3.5 years old or better. I NEED the challenge and I would rather pass on a skipper than kill it. Some years I pass on a dozen or so does and skippers before I get my crack at a "good buck". Some years I don't get my crack, but every year is a great season because I am in the hunt!
I have tried instinctive shooting several times. Every time I could get my group down to about 6 inches out to 10 to 15 yards but beyond that the group got too big to call it "ready for prime time". The first shot would rarely center the group. Each time after trying for a couple of months I went back to my single sight pin set for 22 yards. Almost immediately my group at 15 yards is 3 inches, at 20 yards is 4 inches and I can hold a 6 inch six-arrow group at 25 yards. With a single sight pin at 22 yards I have a dead-on hold on the "spot" from 20 to 25 yards and I hold the top of the sight pin on my "spot" for 15 yards. And this is with a 64# recurve, cedar arrows, feather fletch and broad-heads. I can hit, first shot or last shot, where I aim.
So there are solutions out there instead of limiting yourself to 10 yards, to does and yearlings, or bows that look like a space-station. I view my way of traditional archery as equally valid that of someone who shoots bare bow but uses carbon fiber arrows.
So I urge you to think outside the box, some. Instinctive shooting is a talent that some of us don't have. We have to find another way.
Good Luck
JMC
I've kept records of all my hunting since I began in 1966. Looking at my notes in all my whitetail, elk, bear and mule deer kills my average shot distance is 14 yds. I practice way out there, 50+ yards. but haven't released an arrow at a deer beyond 15 yds in 20 years. Hang in there!
10-15 is the shot I set up for, I'll shoot out to 20 if I have to but 10-15 is where I want em! I'd say hunt and limit yourself to 15 if you have to. Goodluck with whatever you choose. Nothing wrong with knowing your limitations and going with whatever weapon keeps you out there.
I always shoot instinctive, im getting better stretching shooting to 16 oor 17yds. I'm just gonna keep working on it....me and my Blacktail :bigsmyl:
About 95% of my deer are killed in the 7-13 yard range. Setup is so important, wind, minimal scent...
We forget that of the most revered and compelling reasons to undertake traditional bowhunting the process of getting close to the game is at or very near the top of the list. In effect, the difficulties associated with 'close enough to hear them breath or see their eyelids blink' underline and define the very theme of what traditional bowhunting really is...the pitting of our natural instincts to be predators in the purest sense against the animal's natural instincts to evade becoming prey. True traditional wreaks of raw challenge, the stalk (or respectful means of ambush) being integral to that process...a direct measure of the respect we hold for the animals and our own natural and attained skills as hunters, a litmus test that some pass, some fail, and many ignore amid shallow excuses in favor of easier means and the shallower rewards of 'sure kills'. Don't underestimate the value and personal satisfaction gained when accepting the challenges. Get close...and then try to get closer. You'll know why after all those seasons of sure kills have come and gone, but so also has any feeling of true accomplishment.
You could always go down in draw weight & up in arrow weight to compensate for the shoulder issue. And keep the shots within 15 yards.
You are spot on about 3D shoots and keeping our shots below 20 yards Will !
I think what made me think about this subject is that see quite a few trad guys boasting on how they shot a buck at so and so yardage. Alot of times its 25-30 yds. Seems like I'm way behind the curve and not meeting standards of our traditional community. Kinda takes the fun out of shooting when you feel you can't measure up
Like most things posted online i would subtract 5-10 yards and 1-3 points (western) from anything posted. That being said i shot a 60 lb squirrel at 300 yards with my 300lb bow last week... its really just a well casing i bend and shoot rebar from :goldtooth:
Know, I hear tjat. Like I said, I've been shooting quite a few years. We wonder why we don't attract new people to the sport. Trad takes practice and dedication. How do you get new people when we are posting BS. A kid can buy a compound bow and in 2 weeks be shooting 50 cent peice size groups in two weeks? Hard to convince someone to try it when they will never have that kind of success with a trad bow.
When I bought my first trad bow in 1988 or so, a Jeffrey's take down recurve, my friend bought a Border Archery at the same time. Richard was deadly on targets from hunting distances and a bit beyond, way better than I was. His first hunting season with his Border Archery recurve he missed 14 deer in a row, hung this bow on the wall and picked his wheels back up and hasn't missed a deer since. He claims the trad bow wasn't effective for him.
It wasn't the bow or his instinctive shooting that was the problem but his concentration at go time and the compound was just easier for him to line up the sights and hit the animal he was shooting at.
Where we hunted back then near Bluffton, SC, most of our shots were very close, feet to a few yards at most from tree stands. Even our gun shots was 20 to 30 yards because of the thick vegetation we hunted so I learned early on that close is where I wanted to be and close could be very effective...and it was. It was easier to bow hunt than gun hunt because of how close we were to the deer we hunted.
15yards, I am about the same 25 is my limit though I practice further and do alright? but really set up right and in my area 15 is about it. Keep in mind we hunt thick woods !
I really do think a good bit of this "close" comes from the different types of cover we hunt and of course if we are on the ground/still hunting/ or in a tree. I hunt in such varied cover its amazing the change in distances one can see. As an example I hunt the edge of some very open hardwoods (about a basal area of less then 50) but the canopy is mostly closed. These are big trees. I can see well over 50 yards at ground level. Its a tough area to hunt even with a good natural material ground blind and the deer use the heck put of it. Still, I try to set up for 15 yards or less.
Then on the same property there are areas that one can not see more then 20 yards with shot openings of less then 15 yards. Our cover in the woods is mostly Oak/hickory save for the open bottoms which are beech/maple. The scrub areas are usually cedar interspersed with junk oak like post and Black Jack. Searching for the white oaks can be/is beneficial and the ability to set up or hunt into said areas is paramount.
There are also a lot of old... old planted pines on FS ground and they become another story unto them selves.
Makes for some interesting planning and strategy for your hunt.
You have to hunt the cover you have available. Learn and understand that cover and adapt a plan based on your shooting abilities. Yardage is up to you....
As Charlie Lamb says..... "hunt smart"
last 4 elk under 12 yds
Actually the fellas from "the push" teach demonstrate a method that will have you shooting three inch groups at 40 yards in no time.
That's what most archers are looking for. A quick and easy solution for success.
I guess I'm just too dumb to get on that train to archery glory.
Huntschool.
Those woods you describe sound beautiful! I love big ole trees and open understory. Even better if a dry stalking creek bed bisecting (squirrels)!
I think you're good at 20...so set up your shot / ambush sites for that shot. Rearrange some stuff so the shot is what you want it to be. It doesn't always work, but when it does...
I hunt from the ground in central and south Texas so 20 is actually stretchin it sometimes...