Folks, I'm sure we all hear of someone that someone else thinks is cheating. Well, I am no different. There is an individual I know that goes to many, many events around the country, I have had many tell me, this person cheats.
Let me say that I personally have never seen nor said this individual cheats, but have heard it more times that I care to remember.
This individual has won at several of these events, including an IBO World Championship. This individual has also won at my event, the Howard Hill Classic.
Again, let me say that I have never seen this person cheat.
NOW, with all this said, this individual has admitted to a well respected individual in traditional archery circles, that they have at times "FUDGED" on some scores, and of course added, DOESN'T EVERYONE!?
Folks, in my world, FUDGED, is another word for CHEATED!!
Now, when did this take place, what or how many events and times did this take place, WHO KNOWS!!! I'm sure this individual didn't FUDGE to give themselves a lower score, but only to raise their score to place or even win.
I don't know the answers on how we can really stop cheating altogether, but I have always thought if a person has to cheat for a piece of wood or belt buckle, they certainly must have some sort of inferiority complex.
Let me finish by saying I won't mention this individual's name, but they, as well as many others, know who they are.
Hopefully, this person will be watched a little closer now.
Terry Harris
That's why we always have one person designated to pull a d score the arrows. If there's is a question the majority opinion carries the day.
I fished in a bass club one year. Got invited to join by my neighbor.
Boater/non boater draw for every tournament. So you never knew if you would be in your boat or another members. Or who that member might be. Tough situation to cheat in.
The one season I fished 9 of the 12 tournaments. The other three conflicted with tournaments in a circuit I fished. I won three of the nine and placed in the top five in another three. I took ninth place over all at season's end.
At nearly every monthly meeting someone accused someone else of cheating. Fist fights occurred, long term friends at each other's throats and me being the insane one, was very unimpressed with being called a cheat.
People do cheat. Especially if money is at stake. But coming on a forum and posting an ambiguous accusation about a person you won't name tells me you don't have the proof, or the guts, to file the protest at the contests in question. Which causes me to question the validity of the accusations.
I must say the Hill shoot is the best time a person could have! That said I've never turned in a score just love good folks and stickin critters.
I hear about it happening all the time but in thirty years of shooting tournaments, I have only noticed cheating once. Seems that the vast majority of traditional archers are about as honest as you can get. I shoot mostly for fun now at shoots so maybe something has changed. :dunno:
If I were to cheat, it would only get me 15th, maybe 14th..... :biglaugh: most times I never turn a score card in. I do tell someone I am off the course.
Why I like putting the winners out on the line on the shootoff! In front of the crowd where aint no funny stuff going on there.
You had a guy post and point me ou last year Terry, he went out Sunday morning. Amazing how my score got topped by a few points? I should have kept that card and gave it to you to post later that day. Kinda thinkin that score would have held up but we had to leave for Tenn . Shot right next to him on Sat evening in the shootdown the 10 place overall shooter took him out easily. Hmmmn.
Its all gud however. We know who they are. Bet you were surprised to hear that name?
HH~
Cloverdale has gone a long way to stopping that with a shoot-off among the top scorers out in front of God and everybody. Anyone who padded their score by much would embarrass themselves at that time. Hopefully someone will give the exact format.
Shoot offs in general go like this. I can tell you because I have won a few, seconded a few and thirded a few. Went out first round a number a years ago as well at Worlds.
You shoot the course post a score in your class of bow. When all scores come in the organization takes a % of the total shooters or or top 10 and they move you at a prescribed time to shootoff at a group of targets usually in open for viewing. You shoot for score until there is only one man/woman left.
So, what you see a lot is a very high score in say the Selfbow class. You say " wow that's a really great score for that course"! Then, the person does not show for the shootoff or he pooches it in the shootoff badly. Kinda tells you the deal. After you do this awhile "you know whats up".
HH~
At the Howard Hill Classic, being a multi round format where one can improve their score, that is why we don't give out anyone's score.
Last year, when I let the IBO have their Mid America here, they rolled everyone's score out so everyone could see.
I knew that was a mistake when I saw it.
The individual I am referring to hasn't been named here, nor the gender, BUT, their name has been brought up for years. Some say they've witnessed some of this "fudging", but haven't called this individual out.
Until someone has the courage to do so, this type of "fudging will continue.
I know who this person is, AND MANY OTHERS DO AS WELL, with more who will also find out.
Again, the individual who told me who this was, is very well respected and shoots with anyone. I've never heard any wrong doings by this person.
This individual has also told me, if I ever had to use their name, it was OK, the truth should always come out.
Terry Harris
Yeah,
You know the guy I'm talking about. :clapper: :bigsmyl:
HH~
All of us have heard rumors that such and such a person has cheated or done something questionable at tournaments. Unfortunately, that is something that will happen. The multiple rounds and the shoot down of the top shooters help prevent this. Also, just listening and paying attention when each target is scored is useful. Just outside the kill zone can't be "fudged" into the kill if somebody is always paying attention to the score.
Sure, it is fun to be in contention for a prize, but most of us are shooting for fun and often don't even turn in a scorecard. Fortunately, most participants are honest. If a person is proven to cheat, they should be totally banned from the event.
You have to remember people who cheat don't look at it that way, they are doing what it takes to win. In their minds eye it isn't cheating that how they convince themselves.
If you confront them they will fight/argue with you because they convince themselves everyone does it so it's OK. The sad part it hurts everyone else.
Confront them and tell them if it happens again everyone will know and they will not be allowed back. And spread the word and their names.
It's a shame some do these kinds of thing, Its disrespectful to archery and all that truly love competing against others.
I don't say this next part to ruffle anyone's feathers so please don't take it the wrong way.
I find it just as disrespectful that people have seen this person FUDGE a score and not called them out. Personally I consider a person who has witnessed this first hand a cheater them selves. It's like robbing a bank, you may not of been the one in the bank robbing it but you drove the getaway car. I understand some don't want to have a confrontation but find an official and say something. Have some respect for yourself, this wonderful sport, and all the other shooters.
Again I'm not meaning to ruffle anyone's feathers and sorry if I did. I just can't stand cheating it's nothing more than theft.
People just want to win, and it happens in "every" sport. Doesn't matter if it's a 3 dollar plastic trophy or a 100k check. He!! we just saw a big name golfer on national TV awhile back clearing the sand from behind his ball before he tried to get out of a sand trap. And you're right, the excuse is always that everyone is doing it. Well, maybe many are, but that still doesn't make it right. Does tell you what kind of person they are though. :banghead:
As with most of these small time tournaments, the last thing organizers around here want to do is to get into an argument with someone over the rules, so it's mainly an honor system approach. However, a year ago in the main trad only tournament, a guy decided he should be able to string walk, and he won his division. I know him, and his argument was that he was using the same equipment as everyone else, so he should be able to shoot it any way he wanted to. In principle, I agree with him, but if I wanted to string walk, I just wouldn't have turned in my score card. Other people noticed and complained, so this year they were keeping an eye on him. He was quite surprised when an official walked up to him, asked to see his score card, and marked "disqualified" across the front of it. He was so pi$$ed and possibly embarrassed that I didn't see him at the range for months afterwards. Finally he got over it and I notice that he is now practicing without string walking. Good for the official who did that; it is hard in a situation that is supposed to be all about fun to confront someone, but in this case it was a good call.
I am a stickler for rules, but that cuts both ways. I like to completely understand the rules as much to know what I can do as what is not permitted. If someone doesn't like what I'm doing that is within the rules, tough $hit.
This is a major reason why I rarely compete anymore at 3D tournaments and strongly favor the round-target type shoots where its far more difficult to fudge things.
For many years I went and shot the World Archery Festival in Las Vegas and they use a flighted format to make sure that everyone has a chance to win some cash....and that's a good thing....until they started posting the flighted scoring information after day 2 of the three-day tournament. This means that people could figure out exactly how well (or how poorly) they had to shoot on day 3 to make a bunch of money. You'd see people shoot some pretty sad scores on day 1 or 2 or both and then an amazing score on day 3 so that they would be sure to win their flight and get a few hundred bucks....for effectively finishing 348th out of 784 shooters in the class or something like that.
I definitely agree that shoot-downs like the major 3D shoots use are the way to go for the most part.
Matt
I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?
I think you can see why there is cheating by all the childish remarks about those who feel the need to compete or towards those that don't compete. Competion is driven by our fear goimg back to fighting for mates and food. We don't have to win. We just need to know we aren't the worse. Doing well is just a bonus. Psychologists sometimes refer to it as "last place aversion." You know the old saying about not needing to be the fastest but rather just not being the slowest when a bear is chasing you.
I know many are bothered by knowing that competition is driven out of fear. Good news none of us escape that. We have kept score and turned in cards. We usually have done well and I admit it is nice to not be last.
But i think more is going on here. Indeed, some who are not great shots might indeed fear turning in a score. Likewise many young people want to know they "can" just as older folk fear they no longer "can". I find this is where the cheating and overzealous cries for regulating shoots come from. Too many just fear they aren't good enough and want to wear the title of "competitor" as an intangible participation trophy. They insist noncompetitors must be worse than them. On the other side, noncompetitors want to assume score keepers are just driven by insecurities from youth or age or maybe just never really achieving enough in life.
Gentlmen I suggest that we be a little more mature and be aware of uor own motivations and keep it adult. By the way, some people keep score because it helps them push themselves. Some shoot because traditional archery is an intrinsic motivation and reward for them! Some shoot because they need that extrinsic reward! But we need to act like adults and drop the innuendo towards other's reasons for enjoying 3d shoots before those shooting for fun cause the shoots to lose the competitors OR the competitors make it miserable for families and friends who want to shoot for fun causing them to stop attending.
Bottomm line is we need to accept that good and bad shooters both may or may not compete. But well rounded adults shouldn't be arguing and insulting others over who gets a ribbon or trophy at a 3d shoot. Did no one get enough of that playing organized sports as a child?
Kirk, what you say may all be true.
BUT, you also need to realize that for those who like to compete and see how they may compare to those that are the top shooters, competition is a good thing.
You also need to realize that for shoots that are competitive, the people that like to compete may drive long distances, spend their hard earned money to attend these events, and, they don't like the idea that some narcissist cheats to win.
IMO, there is no easy fix, but if someone cheats and is caught, not just accused, they should be banned from at least that event.
Terry Harris
Quote from: Trumpkin the Dwarf on April 15, 2020, 02:26:14 PM
I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?
This is my issue with this thread. It's like two members gossiping or starting drama with no intent of calling the shooter out or taking steps to stop it themselves. Just an attempt to cause a big discussion here with what being the end result?
Kind of my thoughts on it as well.
When I played golf in high school, there were several kids from different schools who were known cheaters and we all made sure that whoever was golfing in their group knew exactly who to watch out for.
You dont need a card to know how well you shoot. Easy to keep the avg in your head for 20, then 20. Just start with 400 and keep a running subtraction. Shoot an 8 -2, a 5 minus 5 more. Easy stuff. Keeping a card is not much harder.
Guess the real test of what kind of archer you are is if show up fat off plenty deer, hog and elk from a good fall/winter or come needing an IV off a double cheeseburger to get around the course.
Everyone enjoys archery differently.
You think USA would have the 2019 world Champion Recurve shooter if he did not like competing?
MAPA
HH~
Cook & Trenton, I know who this person is, as well as others close to me.
I don't name this person for a reason, but believe me, this person has been taken care of as far as my event is concerned.
Terry Harris
Quote from: GCook on April 15, 2020, 04:00:26 PM
Quote from: Trumpkin the Dwarf on April 15, 2020, 02:26:14 PM
I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?
This is my issue with this thread. It's like two members gossiping or starting drama with no intent of calling the shooter out or taking steps to stop it themselves. Just an attempt to cause a big discussion here with what being the end result?
I agree.
John, no disrespect intended, but unless you walk in my shoes about this issue, you may not fully understand what's going on here.
Let me try and help you. The issue is, if an individual admits to fudging on there own score, that is cheating, that has been my whole point here.
Terry Harris
I like shooting 3D, however I have only attended a few "tournaments".
3D is my practice for hunting season, and more for fun actually! I know it was a good shot before I pull my arrow. That's all that matters to me. I realize that many clubs use the score cards to make sure all are off the course safe & sound, so I always turn mine in. Most times I just write "THANKS" on it, and drop it in the box.
The only thing that bothers me more than people who knowingly cheat (present in EVERY aspect of life) are people who tattle and gossip about cheaters to others who have no power to rectify the problem.
If a person is thought to be cheating, they should be reported to the authorities and ONLY to the authorities. If the authorities think the accusation is credible, they should act on it.
Anything else is just grade school gossip and rumor-mongering.
Well Mr. Harris the issue is not the accused at this point IMO. It's how and why you brought it up the way you did on TG. Is the individual a member here? Because honestly your thread looks to me like one intended for something other than a productive discussion.
I could be wrong.
Quote from: GCook on April 16, 2020, 09:45:33 AM
Well Mr. Harris the issue is not the accused at this point IMO. It's how and why you brought it up the way you did on TG. Is the individual a member here? Because honestly your thread looks to me like one intended for something other than a productive discussion.
I could be wrong.
Let's give him a break. The way I read it is that Mr. Harris is interested in our views on what to me is an interesting social phenomenon: why would people cheat in venues where it really doesn't make much sense to cheat? Where all there is at stake is a ribbon or cheap trophy and some bragging rights. Heck, I remember one time years ago where my mother got tired of another woman cheating at her monthly bridge group, and told the group that either my mother or the other woman had to go. The other woman got the message and left. The last thing in the world my mother wanted to do was to raise a stink in a social setting, which is exactly how the organizers of local archery tournaments feel. It takes a lot more than a casual attitude toward the rules to move them to action, but some situations are so blatant that it ruins the experience for those who would really like to know how they stack up against the other competitors.
I think this is entirely different from a championship competition, where valuable prizes and perhaps sponsorships are at stake. In that venue, cheating becomes more like stealing, and of course the rules have to be more stringently enforced.
I don't think it would be a good idea to "out" any particular individual on this forum for cheating, whether he is a member or not, but discussing the psychological reasons that would drive someone to cheat in what should be a primarily social setting are interesting to me.
It's pretty hard to cheat around here. No club owns enough good targets to field a 30 target course with all readable scoring lines or newish Rineharts. Well, maybe one club, Baltimore Bowmen, but they never host a scoring event, all fun stuff. One of my own clubs is making headway in upgrading their targets and inserts but the other can't afford it.
I have been to many of Terry's shoots and consider him a friend, he is as straight a shooter as they come and I don't mean at launching arrows. If you pride yourself in being an honest and honorable man it is impossible to look the other way when you consistently see the things that the dregs of society will do.
The point of this thread as I see it is not to slam an individual shooter but to give a subtle heads up to other questionable attendees that someone is looking over their shoulder when they start pencil whipping their score card.
Here is my story,
I ran the tournaments for the Muscle Shoals Archery club for 15 years, we had nighttime ball field 3D tournaments every Saturday in the spring and fall, I don't know how many we had during my tenure but it had to be well over 100.
One guy won over and over, his mo was to run up to the targets quickly before the other guys in the group got there, pull his arrow first, then the others and call out the scores.
Word got out that he was cheating and we confronted him, he admitted it. This guy was the toughest individual I had ever met, rock hard. He was a stand out in any sport he participated in, golden gloves champ, football, everything. He said it had been drummed into him by his first coach that winning was everything, no matter what it took and that was the way he ran his life with no apologies.
We told him if he wanted to shoot our tournaments he couldn't pull arrows or keep score. Strangely he was OK with that, I noticed a change in him, instead of blood in your eye serious as he had been in the past he started laughing, joking and having a good time at the tournaments.
More on how tough this guy was; He fell out of a tree deer hunting and badly broke his back, a week later he was back in the tree hunting again, he swallowed the pain and kept on going.
Now, I fell out of a tree and badly broke my back, a week later I was still rolling out of the bed and literally crawling to the bathroom because I couldn't stand up because the pain.
I lost track of this guy over the years, last year I ran into some people who knew him. They said he was still trying to go to work but the incredible pain he faced every day from his beat up body had turned him into an alcoholic drug addict, I guess winning had a cost after all. Like they say, what you do comes back to you.
Sorry for the long boring story, my point is, you never know what motivates people to cheat.
McDave you may be right and honestly that is an interesting perspective.
However after being called a cheat because I out fished guys who thought they were the next BassMasters champion (yes that dates me)was irritating.
Having to defend myself on a boat ramp from two of the accusers on a boat ramp with my fists was down right disgusting. It came to a head when one of the drunk idiots threatened me with a weapon at a club cookout no less. Cheating happens. And I believe cheaters should be confronted. Privately. But there should be evidence before accusations and if founded the individual should be banned. Publicly.
Quote from: McDave on April 16, 2020, 10:27:15 AM
The way I read it is that Mr. Harris is interested in our views on what to me is an interesting social phenomenon: why would people cheat in venues where it really doesn't make much sense to cheat?
Just as interesting in my opinion, are the folks that just assume that if they don't win, someone must have cheated. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are just as many of those types out there. In my opinion, both usually boil down to fragile egos and feelings of inferiority.
Some very interesting comments on this thread. I love to shoot 3d and I love to compete, but having said that doesn't anyone else find it ironic that 3d foam targets are so "prone" to this problem?
Unlike paper targets you can't even see what your supposed to be shooting at, and lines are irregular embossed impressions in the foam with no clear width or distinction. And once they've been shot a few times it just gets worse. Ad to this the idea that some targets are placed at angles so "clean" shots are impossible.
As someone who likes to compete I'd much rather go to a shoot with 2d paper animal targets. Sure eliminates much of this "interpretation" that goes on. Save the foam for "hunting practice". :archer2:
Quote from: BAK on April 16, 2020, 11:20:36 AMAdd to this the idea that some targets are placed at angles so "clean" shots are impossible.
As someone who likes to compete I'd much rather go to a shoot with 2d paper animal targets. Sure eliminates much of this "interpretation" that goes on. Save the foam for "hunting practice". :archer2:
Irritating to me is that often the "kill" zone of foam targets includes areas where I would hate to hit an animal, and at times my hit is a better kill spot on the animal than the center spot (we call it the 11 ring here, but it has different names in different parts of the country), so I get a lower score than someone who in my opinion made a worse shot. I don't really care about the lower score, because I'm a long way from being a champion, but it would be nice if the target manufacturers would mark their targets more realistically.
I should try one of these shoots out. I could cheat and still do terrible :biglaugh:
I am in favor of confronting a cheater and eliminating them from the event, or club. However, one point hasn't been mentioned. When confronting this guy, there needs to be solid incontrovertible proof of these wrongdoings. I'm talking about the possibility of law suits. If you smear somebody's name, a court case for libel could be an outcome to consider. No, I'm not an attorney. Still, bad behavior should be confronted.
As an aside, my opinion of Terry Harris is just the same as stated by Eric Krewson.
Local club always had this one guy come in late Sunday to do the shoot, scores were posted as they were turned in where everyone could see. Now, I've see this guy shoot and by all accounts he's a pretty good shooter. But he always seemed to post a winning or near winning score each and every time. Club decided to stop posting scores publicly that were over a certain amount. Final posted scores after all cards turned in. Low and behold, the late comer guy still shot well but he wasn't at the top of the heap anymore. Now maybe he was just motivated by seeing the high scores, maybe he just couldn't fudge the scores that much, maybe he's just not as good as he used to be, maybe others are better than he is now, maybe he got the message. I dunno. People seem happier now. We've all seen some line cutter shots in foam targets now and then, I let somebody else in the group call 'em if it's my arrows. On the hunt it's either a good ethical kill or it's not. You gotta live with both kinds of shooting.
Quote from: T. W. Harris on April 14, 2020, 08:52:15 PM
Folks, I'm sure we all hear of someone that someone else thinks is cheating. Well, I am no different. There is an individual I know that goes to many, many events around the country, I have had many tell me, this person cheats.
Let me say that I personally have never seen nor said this individual cheats, but have heard it more times that I care to remember.
This individual has won at several of these events, including an IBO World Championship. This individual has also won at my event, the Howard Hill Classic.
Again, let me say that I have never seen this person cheat.
NOW, with all this said, this individual has admitted to a well respected individual in traditional archery circles, that they have at times "FUDGED" on some scores, and of course added, DOESN'T EVERYONE!?
Folks, in my world, FUDGED, is another word for CHEATED!!
Now, when did this take place, what or how many events and times did this take place, WHO KNOWS!!! I'm sure this individual didn't FUDGE to give themselves a lower score, but only to raise their score to place or even win.
I don't know the answers on how we can really stop cheating altogether, but I have always thought if a person has to cheat for a piece of wood or belt buckle, they certainly must have some sort of inferiority complex.
Let me finish by saying I won't mention this individual's name, but they, as well as many others, know who they are.
Hopefully, this person will be watched a little closer now.
Terry Harris
I am just a working man but if I am competing in an event and I see somebody cheating bet your ass I will say something to the individual cheating I may get my ass whopped it has happend before and I have a big mouth I am near deaf so I am naturally loud. I call it like I see it and be dammed the rest of it. If he is cheating you should have said HEY you what are you doing?
Islander
So anybody have anything fun and or positive they have done with traditional archery lately? :dunno:
:deadhorse: :banghead:
Yes Absolutly
I got a dozen blemished gold tip 500 spine shafts cheap on e bay and used my new to me used Blitz fletcher the first arrows I have ever done It was fun I also got feathers on sale I love it now I can make and repair my own arrows. I also got a 70s grizzly bow that shoots great for 100 dollars. I love archery. Stay safe and a good attitude.
Islander :goldtooth: :biglaugh:
Sooner, the individual I have referred to here, I've shot with them, very good shot and as far as I was concerned, didn't have to cheat.
As I've said, never saw this person cheat but others claim to have.
My point about this or any individual that ADMITTED "Fudging" on their score, has, in my opinion, cheated.
Since the admission has been made, one might be led to believe, that this person has indeed been seen cheating.
Not "tattling" just stating the obvious.
And thanks to those kind word guys, I don't think I have ever cheated anyone, unless I thought I could get away with it when shooting with my wife, LOL. She watches me like a Hawk.
Terry Harris
Quote from: T. W. Harris on April 16, 2020, 06:32:09 PM
Not "tattling" just stating the obvious.
Based on your own statements, the only thing
"obvious" is that you have no first hand knowledge of this person cheating.
As to someone's "fudging" statement, I've said things like that dozens, of times. Unless you heard it personally, in context, you have no idea whether that person was being serious or not.
I have finished first in our animal target league for years. When asked how I manage to win every year, it's not unlike me to say something like
"I just cheat better than the others."I can assure you, I have never knowingly cheated at an archery event in my life.
I can't believe this crap has more pages than Paul Schafer and Barry Wensel topic. Spit the name out or shut the heck up.
Oh, Ok, JEFF SMITH!! Happy now. Now, we all know it's not you, NEVER EVEN MET YOU.
Jeff, you really don't know anything about the point I'm trying to make here. You just decide to jump in and try to be relevant.
You're probably the guy that goes to shoots, never helps, but is the first to bitch about something you don't like about the event.
SO, do us all a favor, SHUT THE HECK UP!
Terry Harris
Jeff Smith.
Never seen him shoot at a National, What's he shoot? I would shoot against him on the shoot off line anytime.
HH~
Another story from my former club;
In the 90s being manufacturer sponsored was the rage, free equipment was the big plus, the sponsored guys cheated all the time but not in little tournaments like mine for the most part. The more win pictures they sent in the more perks they got from the sponsors.
Then there were the wanabees who wanted to be sponsored; we had one young guy of modest means who was campaigning to be sponsored, I had seen him shoot in out indoor range a bunch of times, he was good but not as good as the scores he turned in.
His best friend was an arrow straight guy and said he saw him cheating. At the next tournament Steve wrote each score his friend shot on the back of his hand. When the cards were turned in the guy had won his class. As I handed out the trophies Steve stepped up and announced to the crowd that the guy had cheated and showed the tally on the back of his hand.
The cheating guys wife broke down in tears, the cheater swore he never cheated and stomped off. He came back a few months later to shoot with us but never won again and was a good man from then on.
30 years later Steve is still my friend and one I admire greatly for stepping up to the plate and outing his best friend because it was the right thing to do.
A little more; Steve was a wheel bow shooter and one of the best, he traveled around the country competing, one day he stopped going, I mean put up his bow completely except for bow hunting.
I asked him why, he said no matter how good he was he couldn't beat a pencil. He said cheating was rampant in the wheel bow circuit and there wasn't any point in spending so much money and time only to get beaten by a pencil whipped score.
If this is so, why isn't there a score keeper at each target hired by the event holder?
I may be the odd ball here but I don't keep score when shooting I don't care if I out shoot anyone or dont outshoot anyone.. I used to shoot a lot of 3d near my house. The course is open all year. I used my self bow most of the time and hardly ever shot at the stakes. I would only take shots at 15 to 25 yards and tried to shoot 80% kill shots. A lot of the kill shots would of scored 5 points.. out of all the times I shot I only had one perfect twenty for twenty kill shots on the course. I very seldom shoot with anyone but enjoy the practice.
I also have a OleHauser pool table in my basement. I like to shoot pool and throw the balls out and shoot them in. I don't go to pool halls or Bars to shoot nor feel the need to beat someone playing pool. These are things I do to relax not to get stressed out over a few points or losing a pool game.
I'm not trying to make light of anyone who likes to compete at any sport, I guess I'm too laid back to put forth the effort.
I've known a lot of fellas who cheat and most are known to be cheaters at everything they do not just archery.
Absolutely agree with the statement about hired scorekeepers! ! I have said it a million times. If these people are so much into policing and competing that they can spend the time and money to travel to these events, then let them pay the cost of hired scorekeepers. Maybe they can hire them as you would a caddy. Instead of $50 a bag, they can pay $50 bucks a scorecard. Also, maybe reserve the scorekeepers for a "pro" class. Others can compete without the paid scorekeepers. In other words, put up or shut up.
Quote from: Broken Arrows on April 17, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
If this is so, why isn't there a score keeper at each target hired by the event holder?
Most clubs can't get enough help to maintain the course, set the targets, pull the targets, man the kitchen, etc. more less put 30 scorekeepers out on the course.
That is why I quit the club, Almost every time i asked for some help (cleaning up the indoor range for instance) I got the most prevalent lie told on the face of the earth "I don't think I will have time".
I worked shift work and a lot of overtime. We had to pick up the trophies buy noon on Friday for the Saturday tournament, normally I could pick them up, it was a 20 mile round trip for me.
I was working evenings and got doubled over on midnights one Friday. I called a member who lived across the street from the trophy company and asked him to pick up the trophies. His answer; I don't think I will have time", it would have taken him 5 minutes tops.
I drove over, picked up the trophies went home and tried to get some sleep before I went back in on evenings again, not much luck.
I thought about how many times I had been told "I don't think I have time", I folded up the books, turned them in and walked away. Without my leadership the 45 year old club folded within 2 years.
My thought is that if those who insist on a well regulated competition aren't willing to pay enough for the club to provide policing then they aren't as serious as they claim! Perhaps we should leave it to those who enjoy traditional archery whether they compete or not. Again a put up or shut up philosophy would really help here
You can believe this or not. At a shoot years ago, so long I can't ever remember what shoot but possibly a shoot in Topeka KS, the sponsor club sent a club member around with each group to keep score. The group I shot with were close friends and this score keeper kept calling shots that were out of the scoring lines in even though they were clearly out by a little. We made him call it right but it was kind of an awkward situation and sticks in my mind. I guess we were such poor shots, he wanted to help us a little.
:biglaugh:
Eric, sounds like a bunch of deadbeats you were carrying around on your back. You are wise to have walked away from it before you had a meltdown.
We used to have a group that was made up of close friends. I don't think any of them would ever cheat. One day, George was writing down everyones score. Some body called out "George, you got a five." George never missed a beat, and replied "That's what YOU think." I miss those days.
Murray
One of the reasons I like the Texas State Longbow shoot is that their rules make it nearly impossible to cheat (I'm sure plenty of other shoots use the same process). They group shooters randomly, so you're not shooting with friends. Each group designates two score keepers and two people to pull arrows and announce the scores. It's a simple solution that requires no extra effort and no extra expense. At the end of the shoot, everyone knows for sure who shot the best. I enjoy other shoots that don't do this, and I've seen cheating occasionally at those, so I consider those fun, not seriously competitive shoots and take the scores in those shoots with a grain of salt.
I'm with Squirrel Hunter on the way they do it at the Texas Longbow Shoot to keep score, 2 score keepers and 1 or 2 people calling the scores, should be hard to cheat with that system. And if others don't want to shoot for score they shouldn't have a problem with the way the scores are dealt with, mark there cards as such.
Kurt
I'm all for keeping it fair. Shoots sound fun, I have limited experience with them, and I wish I had more locally available.
From the perspective of a 3 under instinctive-ish shooter (am I gapping?).... who the hell cares if your neighbour is string walking. Let's all just shoot our bows and try to shoot straight and not wound animals.
Mike
String walking is no big advantage on unmarked distances. You still have to estimate distance and execute the shot. I string walked in the 60s but marked field distances. Yes, it was very effective there.
String walking, not fixed crawl but true string walking, produces poor arrow flight with broad heads and is therefore not good for hunting. That's why it's usually illegal at 3D shoots. Regardless, if the rules say no, whether it makes sense or not, well, you know what to do.