Looking for suggestions of what I'm missing.
I recently purchased a new custom hybrid longbow and having some unusual experiences.
First this brand of bow is known to be very quiet but I can't seem to get it to not sound like it's being dry fired. I've worked with the brace in 1/4" from 7 to 8.5 resulting slight changes. I've tried arrow weight from 9-12gpp, carbon, and wood with slight changes in sound. I've adjusted nocks from tight to loose "falling off the string" with little to no change.
Second, I've never had to shoot with a arm guard although I usually wear one. Since working with this bow I'm destroying my leather arm guard.
Last but not least, I'm getting the string scrapping my face at release. I've tried tabs, gloves, bare fingers and even an old string release I used with a compound years ago. all with the same result, string slapping my face right at release.
I just don't know what's going on, I'll switch to any of my other bows longbow or recurve and all the issues are gone. I've put myself on film switching between many bows to check if form is the problem but can't see any difference.
I would contact Bowyer and ask some questions. Rarely would a bowyer that has a good rep want one of their customers having a bad experience.
String type and serving can make a huge difference. Also the type of silencers you use. What was good for a big brace height recurve might not work for a longbow. You may need a heavy arrow to calm it down. Heavy silencers can make your bow slap you terribly. No silencers can make you not want to shoot it again.
We need some more details.
Also, and I am not saying this is at all true in your case but some bows get way overrated on here. I have owned and sold one or two of those.
12gpp wasnt a lot quieter than 9???? Have you considered that your arrow spine could be wrong, causing the arrow to strike the riser on release and be the culprit behind the loud report? Also as was said string construction, material, and silencer type and placement can make a big difference in perceived sound. That being said you claim no form issue but string slapping face and arm guard sounds like form to me, not every bow likes being held exactly the same depending on grip shape and brace height. More info is needed on poundage, arrow specs, string type and material.
This'll be an interesting puzzle to figure out, there's a lot out of whack there! Couple guesses so far: As far as the sound, I'm thinking like nineworlds that you could be shooting too stiff a spine, and hear it bouncing off the strike plate. Been there and done that a few times. And I think lots of folks overestimate the spine needed for the high performance hybrids.
As far as the string slapping your armguard, and worse, your face... sounds like your bow arm might be over extended.
What poundage is the bow, and what's your draw length? What spines have you been shooting with it?
I had a similar experience with noise on one. The bowyer did his best to help me but although I shot the bow well the noise made it a target only bow and I traded it off.
I think ninesworld is on to something myself. Spine could be way off,but that wouldn't affect hitting your arm or face. I have some bows I just can't hold right,and hit myself worse than normal. I have also played with not drawing some bows back as far than other bows,but that can get into problems with form. I just shoot some bows not pulled back as far as other designs.
I'll be interested to follow this thread.......I have over 40 trad bows and have shot all my life, mostly for competitive purpose, but also hunting and really like the gear/tuning side of the sport. I have one single bow (a high-performance modern longbow) that shoots little tiny groups and performs amazing......but it slaps my arm SO hard that I don't enjoy shooting it as much as I should. I have not been able to figure it out. I have shot multiple other examples from the same bowyer without issue. It is a mystery that I can't figure out. I never have worn an armguard.....but I had to get one just for this bow.
I may try building a lighter string for it next....
Matt
I have found thru personal experience that string silencer placement can make the string slap your arm. I always put my silencers the length of my T-square away from both ends. While replacing a string once (and after being told by my bowyer that this system was supposed to be quieter) I decided to try the 1/4,1/3 placement for the silencers. I started slapping the heck out of my arm. After a couple weeks, I couldn't stand it anymore, and ripped the silencers out and put new ones in at the old spot. Yep, no more arm slapping!!!! So, moving the string silencers is something you might try to alleviate the arm slapping problem.
Bisch
Bear in mind, guys, that he doesn't have this problem with his other bows, so I think we can rule out form problems IN GENERAL. However, I have had occasions where I have hit my face with the string or the nock, and after a few whacks, I get gun-shy. I begin flinching to avoid the sting, and generally tensing up whenever i shoot. I probably do things with a bow like that that I don't ordinarily do. When I get into a situation like that, I have to retrain myself to come to full draw, relax, and shoot normally rather than do a bunch of things that only makes the situation worse. Forget about anchoring for a while; hold the string far enough away from your face that you know you're not going to hit it, bend your bow arm and rotate your bowhand out enough so you won't hit your forearm, and make sure you're shooting that particular bow with the same good form otherwise that you shoot your other bows with, and see if it sounds any different than it does now.
I'm thinking the spine may be off as well. Could just as easily be underspined as overspined, if you're shooting a new, high performance hybrid, cut to or past center with a low stretch string. If the bow is much shorter than you're used to shooting, that could also contribute to the problems. If you torque the bow, either vertically or horizontally, the effect will be greater with a shorter bow. Loosening your grip would help compensate. Too, it may be more difficult to get off the string cleanly, with the string hanging up on the fingers occasionally.
Good suggestions above.
But, you said the this bow is destroying your arm guard. That could be part of the noise you are hearing.
Ok lot of suggestions and replies with questions so let's see if I can reply to most in one post.
Bow specs - 56" 44lb at my 27.75"
Arrow specs and tested arrow specs. Before I started trying to tune I shot 60-70 shot to learn the bow and set a general nock point.
I started with full length GTT 600 and 150 up front, it showed Very weak so trimmed .25 off at a time all the way down to 29" still showed weak. "I want to shoot 29.75 arrows". I then switch to GTT 500 and 150 up front, once I got the 500's to 29.5 they flew great. I then adjusted nock point and tied it down. "Arrow flight is great, but the noice is crazy loud. I then tried bare shafting 400's and 340's and every weight combo up front I could manage with what I have available. At one point I was up to 268gr point on 400's, they flew well but came off the outer edge of the shelf. This is when I switched to wood, 5 different spines and a total of 32 different lengths tried all with 150gr up front. The best flying wood set up was 29" Surewood 5/16 45-50's and fly like lasers but loud.
This not my first hybrid short longbow, I have 3 others a 52" and 2-54" all dead quite and all within 2 pounds of each other. Those 3 shoot 29.75 500's with 150's like a dream. But only like 50-55 woods.
String is the custom string sent and made by the bowyer with cat whisper installed by bowyer.
As for making adjustments to the way I grip the bow or how my bow arm is extended. Yes I've played around with this and yes I can make the bow not strike my face and arm but only at a sacrifice of form. I'm not new to shoot traditional archery, I've been shooting traditional equipment for over 35 years. By no means is my form perfect or repeated exactly the same every time. it is good enough to know something weird is going with this. When you can shoot 18 other bows with the same form and none of this happens.
Quote from: MnFn on March 31, 2020, 11:34:13 AM
Good suggestions above.
But, you said the this bow is destroying your arm guard. That could be part of the noise you are hearing.
I know you're wright some of the sound is from that. However, the main sound I'm hearing is a ringing twang. The same sound I get when I pluck the string an inch or so but MUCH louder when shooting. It's actually loud enough that my ears ring after shooting it for a bit in my work shop at night. I hit golf balls in my work shop and that doesn't make my ears ring.
Unless that bow is cut past center,I can't imagine with the arrows cut down that short,and that light of point weight that those arrows aren't stiff. If they are flying good though I would just work on ways to get it more quiet. It seems like the .600 should have worked well.
OK, two more guesses and I'll throw in the towel. First is string material. The low stretch strings generally make a higher pitched sound than dacron, and some are just louder on some bows than others. That could contribute to the noise problem, but shouldn't affect the nose or arm hitting. I've found, too, that shooting indoors, the sound seems louder than outdoors.
Second is tiller. Did you check the tiller? if that's way off, the limbs aren't coming to rest at the same time at the end of the shot, nor are they balanced anywhere throughout the shot. It could contribute to both greater noise, more hand shock and even more side-to-side string oscillation.
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on March 31, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Unless that bow is cut past center,I can't imagine with the arrows cut down that short,and that light of point weight that those arrows aren't stiff. If they are flying good though I would just work on ways to get it more quiet. It seems like the .600 should have worked well.
I was thinking 600 would have been the ones too but they showed nock left BAD left all the way down to 29". 500's full length with the 150 was slightly nock right.
Quote from: Orion on March 31, 2020, 05:02:16 PM
OK, two more guesses and I'll throw in the towel. First is string material. The low stretch strings generally make a higher pitched sound than dacron, and some are just louder on some bows than others. That could contribute to the noise problem, but shouldn't affect the nose or arm hitting. I've found, too, that shooting indoors, the sound seems louder than outdoors.
Second is tiller. Did you check the tiller? if that's way off, the limbs aren't coming to rest at the same time at the end of the shot, nor are they balanced anywhere throughout the shot. It could contribute to both greater noise, more hand shock and even more side-to-side string oscillation.
I haven't though of checking tiller, I'll do that this evening. Should I also have someone measure tiller when I'm at full draw? Would this tell me anything?
Sounds like you have tried about everthing any sensible experienced archer would try.
Too have that much noise is weird and the severe string slap is unusual.I have had some bows have a tendancy to bite my forarm a bit.But nothing severe.I typically would raise the brace height for that problem a bit.
Just for an experiment try rotating your bow arm out a bit more and bend your arm a bit more (Kinda hill style) and see what happens to the noise without the string slap?
I was thinking it might be out of tiller as well and the limbs are not recovering as they should.
Would consult with the Bowyer for his recommendations.
Didn't notice if this is a three piece bow, but if it is you can get a lot of vibrating noise from the limb bushings. If this is happening you should be able to hear it if you pound on the riser with your fist when it is braced but not drawn. To diminish it, wrap the non-threaded parts and beveled heads of the limb bolts with the Teflon tape you use to seal pipe joints.
Another thing that sometimes happens is a defect where the limbs are not in alignment with the center line of the bow. If this is present, it can cause all kinds of problems and the bow should be returned to the bowyer. This is different from limb twist, which shouldn't be a problem on a r/d longbow. This photo shows limbs that are in alignment with the centerline of the bow; if they were not, the string would be to one side or the other of one of the centerline markers.
[attachment=1]
Quote from: JAH518 on March 31, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on March 31, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Unless that bow is cut past center,I can't imagine with the arrows cut down that short,and that light of point weight that those arrows aren't stiff. If they are flying good though I would just work on ways to get it more quiet. It seems like the .600 should have worked well.
I was thinking 600 would have been the ones too but they showed nock left BAD left all the way down to 29". 500's full length with the 150 was slightly nock right.
I guess you have to do whatever works for ya,but your thread got me to thinking. I took a bow I have that is cut to center and is 43@28. I took some .600 full length,and put 145 up front and got perfect flight. I haven't had this bow out in a while,but got that combo to work very well. I will be very interested to hear what happens with your set up. I hope you don't have something more serious at work.
Quote from: Steelhead on March 31, 2020, 05:22:43 PM
Sounds like you have tried about everthing any sensible experienced archer would try.
Too have that much noise is weird and the severe string slap is unusual.I have had some bows have a tendancy to bite my forarm a bit.But nothing severe.I typically would raise the brace height for that problem a bit.
Just for an experiment try rotating your bow arm out a bit more and bend your arm a bit more (Kinda hill style) and see what happens to the noise without the string slap?
I was thinking it might be out of tiller as well and the limbs are not recovering as they should.
I've tried this a few time and again this evening. It takes a small bit of the noise away but none of the extremely loud dry fire twang. It's puzzling. :dunno:
McDave,
Great information! I haven't thought of checking this. The bow is a 2pc takedown bow bolt system. I noticed tonight the if I wrap a piece of cloth around the joint and grip it extremely tight it dampened the sound more than anything thing else I've tried yet.
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on March 31, 2020, 08:44:00 PM
Quote from: JAH518 on March 31, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on March 31, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Unless that bow is cut past center,I can't imagine with the arrows cut down that short,and that light of point weight that those arrows aren't stiff. If they are flying good though I would just work on ways to get it more quiet. It seems like the .600 should have worked well.
I was thinking 600 would have been the ones too but they showed nock left BAD left all the way down to 29". 500's full length with the 150 was slightly nock right.
I guess you have to do whatever works for ya,but your thread got me to thinking. I took a bow I have that is cut to center and is 43@28. I took some .600 full length,and put 145 up front and got perfect flight. I haven't had this bow out in a while,but got that combo to work very well. I will be very interested to hear what happens with your set up. I hope you don't have something more serious at work.
with a few thinking I could be a little off with the 500's I took a fresh 31" 600 and started shooting and trimming again. I came to the same result again, all the way down to 28.5" this time and still weak. :dunno:
I'll be!
So do you think their is a little bit of play in the bowbolt?Causing the 2 halves to vibrate against each other.
I would check the joint both strung and unstrung holding it up against the light might help to see if any light is shining through the joint.
Can you get a piece of electrical tape around the bolt on one of the surfaces and still get it to do the quarter twist without the tape coming off.Then test it to see if it muffles the noise?
Quote from: Steelhead on March 31, 2020, 10:07:59 PM
So do you think their is a little bit of play in the bowbolt?Causing the 2 halves to vibrate against each other.
I would check the joint both strung and unstrung holding it up against the light might help to see if any light is shining through the joint.
Can you get a piece of electrical tape around the bolt on one of the surfaces and still get it to do the quarter twist without the tape coming off.Then test it to see if it muffles the noise?
When it is unstrung the joint looks perfect all the way around. When strung you can see a gap about the thickness of a piece of paper in the front and a quarter of the way back on both sides. I a picture of it but can't get it to post.
Unless the tiller is off that tiny gap in the bow bolt mating surfaces shouldnt hurt a thing. I have owned a number of bow bolt bows and some had that tiny gap at the back when strung and it never causes a noise, at proper BH the limbs stopping on the shot should prevent any movement there.
Speaking from experience with many bows and bowyers I can tell you for certain that "stock" strings on new bows are an afterthought for most bowyers. They are mostly there to get the bow out the door in a shootable condition. Some bowyers do a decent job making the strings themselves others are atrocious, some farm the making out with similar mixed results. There are only a handful of bowyers out there who truly give the string making the attention it deserves or farm it out to someone truly competent. Flemish string making is an art unto itself contrary to what some will say. The string makes the bow, it is like the tires on a car. I think you should strongly consider ditching that stock string for a custom. I can emphatically recommend the following three makers who are my go tos Ten Ring Strings, Mountain Muffler Strings, and RMSGear. Material wise it is largely personal preference but Id recommend against any of the older materials and go with something from the newer gen and not too skinny. Measure your string length in a manner where your string wont end up with too many twists or not enough, both ends of the spectrum can contribute to noise IMO.
Quote from: nineworlds9 on April 01, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Unless the tiller is off that tiny gap in the bow bolt mating surfaces shouldnt hurt a thing. I have owned a number of bow bolt bows and some had that tiny gap at the back when strung and it never causes a noise, at proper BH the limbs stopping on the shot should prevent any movement there.
Speaking from experience with many bows and bowyers I can tell you for certain that "stock" strings on new bows are an afterthought for most bowyers. They are mostly there to get the bow out the door in a shootable condition. Some bowyers do a decent job making the strings themselves others are atrocious, some farm the making out with similar mixed results. There are only a handful of bowyers out there who truly give the string making the attention it deserves or farm it out to someone truly competent. Flemish string making is an art unto itself contrary to what some will say. The string makes the bow, it is like the tires on a car. I think you should strongly consider ditching that stock string for a custom. I can emphatically recommend the following three makers who are my go tos Ten Ring Strings, Mountain Muffler Strings, and RMSGear. Material wise it is largely personal preference but Id recommend against any of the older materials and go with something from the newer gen and not too skinny. Measure your string length in a manner where your string wont end up with too many twists or not enough, both ends of the spectrum can contribute to noise IMO.
This^^^^^^
Can't put enough emphasis on the benefit of a quality string.
I also played with different materials till I found the one that performed the best with my bows. The material chosen and number of strands can make a huge difference in its self!
I've had that happen before. Turned out the way I was gripping the bow didn't get along with the bow. Went to a gripping it with a higher wrist and it smoothed out.
Quote from: Steelhead on March 31, 2020, 10:07:59 PM
So do you think their is a little bit of play in the bowbolt?Causing the 2 halves to vibrate against each other.
I would check the joint both strung and unstrung holding it up against the light might help to see if any light is shining through the joint.
Can you get a piece of electrical tape around the bolt on one of the surfaces and still get it to do the quarter twist without the tape coming off.Then test it to see if it muffles the noise?
So I decided to try putting electrical tape between the two halves where the gap is when strung tonight. Very first shot I could notice a big difference. So I put 20 -30 arrows through it and the results were amazing. All of the harmonic twangy dry fire ringing sound was gone. I could now actually hear the arrows impacting the target. The only sound left is the string sounding like it needs a good pair of wool puffs and not the cat whispers. As happy as I am now that I know I can quite this thing down I'm just as disappointed that this is the issue.
Glad to hear my suggestion worked.It was a shot in the dark and kinda a hunch I had with all the noise feedback you were getting.I have never had to that with any of my bowbolt bows personally.I did put some felt between a connexion hinge 2 piece T.D once.
I understand your happy and bummed at the same time.New bow after all.Talk to bowyer.Some tolerances must be off a bit with installation
Yaa,wool puffs thier my favorite.Nice really dense smaller ones trimmed into the perfect circle!:)
When I offered my input, I didn't know you were shooting a two-piece bow. Anytime there's excessive noise from a two- or three-piece bow, the joining/attachment system is the first place I look. Glad you found the problem.
So I decided to try putting electrical tape between the two halves where the gap is when strung tonight. Very first shot I could notice a big difference. So I put 20 -30 arrows through it and the results were amazing. All of the harmonic twangy dry fire ringing sound was gone. I could now actually hear the arrows impacting the target. The only sound left is the string sounding like it needs a good pair of wool puffs and not the cat whispers. As happy as I am now that I know I can quite this thing down I'm just as disappointed that this is the issue.
[/quote]
I would call the bowyer to see if he would fix it.
Jeff
I would contact the bowyer asap before any warranty or replacement time flies by. It's a new custom bow. It shouldn't do anything like you're describing.
Deno
Quote from: Deno on April 02, 2020, 12:22:01 PM
Jeff
I would contact the bowyer asap before any warranty or replacement time flies by. It's a new custom bow. It shouldn't do anything like you're describing.
Deno
X2
Quote from: Petrichor on April 02, 2020, 12:25:00 PM
Quote from: Deno on April 02, 2020, 12:22:01 PM
Jeff
I would contact the bowyer asap before any warranty or replacement time flies by. It's a new custom bow. It shouldn't do anything like you're describing.
Deno
X2
Thank you to everyone who gave input even tho I didn't provide all the need info upfront. :dunno: Sorry Orion. I'm contacting the bowyer today.
I still think you should get a new/better string.
Also, a tapes thickness gap in the bow bolt doesnt account for the arm guard and face issue, hows that going?
Quote from: nineworlds9 on April 02, 2020, 01:24:24 PM
I still think you should get a new/better string.
Also, a tapes thickness gap in the bow bolt doesnt account for the arm guard and face issue, hows that going?
Both are still there although last night with the tape in place I was not striking the arm guard as bad. I've been placing blue painters tape on the guard to track it and last night 1 piece of tape lasted the hole time I shot. it did show strikes but before i was replacing the arm guard tape every 2 or 3 shots. I don't know how or why this was different but it was. the face strike is still there and still as confusing. I've decided to focus on the most annoying problem first in hopes it relates to a fix in the rest, this being the noise.
update if anyone was still wondering the outcome.
I have ordered 3 different strings from 3 different makers but to this point only 1 has arrived. I have also made some small modifications to the bow bolt system, my finger tabs, arrow shelf, and arrows. The over all outcome is good and most of the problem are gone or almost resolved.
1st. I found that there is (was) a void in the bow bolt system between the top of the bolt and bolt socket. I used silicon based mud to figure out the exact size of the void and then filled it with a cotton based foam. Filling this void reduced the high pitched harmonics a great deal.
2nd. The new string was made from the Mercury material (same as the original) but this one is an 18 strand vs 14 strand. I then installed (3) 2.5" pieces of paracord outer shell as silencers. HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!! over the 14 strand and cat whiskers.
3rd. I replaced the leather strike plate and shelf mat with protective felt used for furniture on hard wood floors. Another HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!
4th. I started playing with arrow weight, brand, and arrow balance. First I tried the bowyer recommended arrow and arrow set up (Centershot 600's 50gr inset and 150 tip) I got 2 out of 5 attempts to actually stick in the target, the other 3 flew so weak nock left they wouldn't stay in the target. A buddy gave me a Axis traditional arrow test kit with some Ethics inserts with sleeves. The 400's at 30" with the 110gr Ethics insert/sleeve and 150gr point bare shafted like lasers out to 20yds.
At some point while I was playing with the bow bolt, string, shelf, and arrows the arm striking stopped and the face striking was now just a light brush. So I tried one more thing and changed the thickness of leather on my finger tab from 2 cordovan leather pads to just one. (this tab is a home made version of a Yost) Now this thing is dead quiet, smooth, accurate, comfortable and kind to shoot.
In 38 years of my archery journey I have never worked so hard on a single bow to get it to shoot well "for me". I guess I have always been lucky and just been able to tune some arrows and go enjoy a new bow. I still don't think some of the things I've had to do should have to be done to a new high dollar custom bow from a very well know bowyer. However, now I think this just adds to the partnership this little piece of wood and I will have for years to come. It is truly a one off custom bow now.
Thank you to all that gave me suggestions resulting in the ideas that helped me figure this thing out. The Tradgang family truly is a great one.
I guess your dogged persistence paid off. You certainly stayed with it longer than I would have. I would have had it on the way back to the bowyer early on. I'm glad it all worked out well. Congratulations on your success.
I probably missed it , what is your draw length & poundage?
Congrats in figuring it out.
Quote from: Car54 on May 05, 2020, 01:11:31 PM
I probably missed it , what is your draw length & poundage?
Congrats in figuring it out.
I'm at 46 pounds on my fingers @ 28"
Congrats you earned it.
I had a black widow PSA it was very loud also. Fortunately, I've had 4 or 5 other widows with no problem. Ended up my arrows were WAY to stiff and arrow was striking riser by rest. Your arm gaurd problem I've had also, for me it was that the grip on the riser was too small for my hand and let me get my arm into it alittle. Not alot, but just enough to strike my forearm.
Hold the bow up in your hand and look at how the grip forces your hand into position. Then take one of your other bows that doesn't cause the nose and arm guard slap and compare. My guess is that the grip design forces a different hand/grip angle on your hand which brings your forearm inward, and the string closer to your nose.
Quote from: Bisch on March 31, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
I have found thru personal experience that string silencer placement can make the string slap your arm. I always put my silencers the length of my T-square away from both ends. While replacing a string once (and after being told by my bowyer that this system was supposed to be quieter) I decided to try the 1/4,1/3 placement for the silencers. I started slapping the heck out of my arm. After a couple weeks, I couldn't stand it anymore, and ripped the silencers out and put new ones in at the old spot. Yep, no more arm slapping!!!! So, moving the string silencers is something you might try to alleviate the arm slapping problem.
Is that T square length from the string loop or up from the nocking point ?
Bisch
I have a bow that has the bow bolt take down system that would rotate slightly when shooting. Not a lot but enough to notice the step on the heel of my hand. I could not get a .0015" of an inch feeler in the gap. It wasn't making any noise that I noticed but the rotation in the grip was extremely distracting to me when shooting. I separated the bow and put two heavy coats of car wax on both halves and let it dry completely. The wax residue was enough to fill the gap and lock the bow together. No more mismatch and no more distractions when shooting and completely reversible if it doesn't work for you. Good Day
I have found that brace height and string silencer location can be a great help. Brace might be lower than you think. String silencer position off by 1/8-1/4" can be a big deal. I have found Paracord sheaths to be a very good material. I use four 2" pieces on the 1/4 of string length from from grooves for 66-71# D/R bows.
:campfire:
Wow that was a lot of work to get that 2pc to work for you. I am curious what the bowyer said when you contacted them. It sounds like a defect was in the bolt system. That is not acceptable on a brand new bow.
I tip my hat to you for your perseverance.
Glad you figured it out. I know how frustrating it can be to learn a new bow.
The first thing I always check when I start hitting my arm is brace height. It can change depending on string material. Usually takes care of some noise issues as well.