Hi All,
I made the switch to wood arrows after deer season this fall. Great flight, loving the extra weight, shooting well all around with field points and small game points. I set up some broadheads this week for turkeys which is a legal requirement in MT, I know you can shoot turkeys with judo's but not allowed here. I cannot seem to get consistent flight! My arrows have been bareshaft tuned, 4" left wing helical on cedars. Ace broadheads. 70# 58" bear grizzly bow. I am tempted to revert back to the old 2219's but thought I should reach out here before making the jump back.
Open to suggestions, given the current world excitement level I would love to make what I have work before buying new shafts or broadheads.
Thanks!
I usually align the 2 blade broadhead with the cock feather on the arrow, but not everyone does - and I'm not sure it should matter.
I think the most common problem is getting the heads improperly aligned on the taper. if the blades aren't parallel with the shaft, you will definitely have trouble getting consistent flight. you can check for alignment in a number of ways: spinning them on a thumbnail, checking them in a jig or spin tester, or just sighting down the shaft with the blade vertical.
I'm sure others will weigh in, but that would be my first check.
Most people I've read about on TradGang over the years seem to use 5" feathers when they hunt with Broadheads on wood arrows. A lot of people use 5" feathers with broadheads on carbon and aluminum too. Probably helps counter the steering effect of broadheads and maybe the fact that wood arrows are usually not completely straight.
How heavy a broad head you shooting? Personally, I have found that 160 grain and heavier work best, from my mid 60# bows, also have never tried fletching shorter than 5".
:campfire:
160 grain, same as field points. The broadheads seem straight to the eye but I don't have a spin tester, maybe I can build one out of things I have around the garage. How does the thumbnail trick work? Good call on the 5" Fletch, I have some around. I can re-fletch a couple and see if it makes a difference
I spin arrows on Plexiglas or other smooth surfaces to eyeball for any wobble.
:campfire:
I spin on plexiglass also. 5 inch shield on Surewood shafts (75-80 spine). 190 gr Tusker points and broadheads mounted vertical.
Deno
Very likely is a spine issue. What is the draw weight at your draw length? If you're drawing 70#@28, and your Grizzly has a low stretch string, with 160 grain points, you'll need at least an 80# spine in a wood shaft, 85# would be better. If you don't know the spine of your arrows, you really have no way of knowing whether that might be the problem. BTW, 2219s are spined at about 95#. It's difficult to find wood in that high a spine. Though field points might shoot decently on an underspined arrow, broadheads usually won't.
The newer Grizzlys are 58-inch bows, if I remember correctly. If you're drawing more than 28 inches, it can be difficult to get off the string cleanly and consistently, so the broadheads might be showing you a form problem as well. I think it's a spine issue though.
With enough spine, 4-inch fletching is enough, though certainly can use 5-inch fletch.
And we're assuming the broadheads are the same weight as the field tips? It does sound like spine or alignment issues.
I think Orion nailed it, 65-70 spine arrows... 30" draw. Could be form too as I'm no expert but I've been shooting the bow for a couple of years with good results. I had no idea a 2219 was that firm, just what Rod Keller told me I needed. Thanks everyone! If anyone wants some nice arrows and has 2219's to trade let me know :biglaugh:
I always mount my broadheads horizontal, and use 5" feathers. Never had any flight issues
Yup, I usually add 10-15 lbs of spine above bow weight for 160-200 grain heads.
:campfire:
Quote from: Deno on March 28, 2020, 04:59:56 PM
5 inch shield on Surewood shafts (75-80 spine). 190 gr Tusker points and broadheads mounted vertical.
Deno
What type of bow and weight at your draw length, just curious. This is similar to the combo I'm considering for my newer bow for later this year. That's why I'm asking.
X3 Orion. I'll add that I tune bareshaft and then broadhead tune after. You should always broadhead tune as the last step of arrow tuning no matter what initial method you use. Feathers will have no problem masking a spine issue and you may even get a field point to fly ok bareshaft with a spine issue. Broadheads magnify tuning and form issues.
With that said there are two things to consider. One, if broadheads magnify an issue the actual issue could me smaller than you think. What I'm saying is if you are already tuned bareshaft, you might not be that far off. Make small adjustments and go slow. Two, forgive me if you already know how to do this but pro tip because a lot of bareshaft tuners do this.... never bareshaft a broadhead.
I broadhead tune by shooting groups of two broadheads and two field points at a target and see how they land in relation to each other. Never make adjustments on one group. Shoot several to confirm results. Clay Hayes has a great arrow tuning method on youtube that covers tuning all the way through including broadheads and is worth a watch even if you are an experienced tuner. He doesnt bareshaft and honestly I'm starting to move away from it.
Lastly, broadhead adjustments and tuning have to done to every kind of arrow not just wood arrows. Shoot what your comfortable with but I find that fixing issues and adjusting wood is so much easier than other materials. The other side of that coin is that you must tune each batch of arrows you get, whereas you get em flying good with carbon or aluminum you can lock everything in. Tuning each batch will get you really experience in tuning quick.
Wood offers a feel that is unlike any other material. Even though I've had my share of issues, I doubt I'll go back. I hand straighten my arrows when needed and regularly pick off squirrels with my woodies. They can be tuned pretty well. Oh and I'm crazy and use 3 inch feathers.
If you are getting great bareshaft and field point groups you might only require a small adjustment to arrows to make big change. If getting weak indicating arrows cut down no more than 1/4 at a time since you are already tuned. Stiff might just need a tad of weight added. Fly tying wire is really good for this because it's small you can weigh it easily and can get right in there with hot melt. Hopefully you can make those arrows work. In the future with a bow that heavy I'd consider shooting spruce or fir because I find it is a little more resistant to the bareshaft tuning process.
Best of luck!
D
If a person is making the switch from carbon to wood, is selecting similar spined wood arrows a good starting point? Assuming of course staying with same weight up front, for example on carbon have ,80 grain insert and 125 grain point, and on wood go with ~200 grain glue on?
Quote from: tmattson on March 29, 2020, 07:38:44 AM
If a person is making the switch from carbon to wood, is selecting similar spined wood arrows a good starting point? Assuming of course staying with same weight up front, for example on carbon have ,80 grain insert and 125 grain point, and on wood go with ~200 grain glue on?
Honestly I havent used carbon in so long I wouldn't know. Usually we can pick a pretty good spine group for wood just based on draw weight, draw length, and point weight.
Silent footed, 70# 58" bear Grizzly, 30" draw.
Petrichor, Thanks for the tips, no I have not tried bareshafting broadheads. I will attempt to shorten the arrows up a little and see if that fixes things. I agree with what you are saying about wood up until this point. I have been surprising myself with the squirrel shots I can pull off with these.
I also have some heavier spine lodgepole shafts I may try today, updates to follow. If I really get fancy I'll post some pictures of my results too.
Quote from: Kbob on March 29, 2020, 08:20:30 AM
Silent footed, 70# 58" bear Grizzly, 30" draw.
Petrichor, Thanks for the tips, no I have not tried bareshafting broadheads. I will attempt to shorten the arrows up a little and see if that fixes things. I agree with what you are saying about wood up until this point. I have been surprising myself with the squirrel shots I can pull off with these.
I also have some heavier spine lodgepole shafts I may try today, updates to follow. If I really get fancy I'll post some pictures of my results too.
Looking forward to pictures! Good luck.
Carbons, aluminum and wood arrows are all arrows but truly different animals. and if you decide to go entirely with wood, you will definitely will be needing a spin tester for alignment and I also suggest getting a Ace spin tester for woodies. You can straighten woodies by flexing them with the palm of your hand. As for a spin tester, you can either make yourself one or get one off 3 Rivers for 20-35 bucks. I spin test every broadhead whether its on carbon, wood or aluminum. Best of luck.
Great advice from all I run my wood arrow a little over spine and my Broadheads are set at 2 and 8 o'clock i have shot them with the blades at 12 o'clock and horizontal with no problems.
Here is the update, no photos... sorry!
Put the heads on the stronger spine lodgepole shafts. Great improvement but now they are diving at ~20 yards. Maybe a nocking point issue?? They seem to fly really well for about 15 yards but then are hitting the target at any longer distance at a 45 degree angle (point down). I will fiddle with nocking point and see if that cleans things up. At this point it seems that my earlier issues were definently spine related, thanks everyone!
Quote from: Kbob on March 29, 2020, 06:00:06 PM
Here is the update, no photos... sorry!
Put the heads on the stronger spine lodgepole shafts. Great improvement but now they are diving at ~20 yards. Maybe a nocking point issue?? They seem to fly really well for about 15 yards but then are hitting the target at any longer distance at a 45 degree angle (point down). I will fiddle with nocking point and see if that cleans things up. At this point it seems that my earlier issues were definently spine related, thanks everyone!
It could be. Are you shooting with a cant? If so your indications will be at a cant also. Could be nock high if shooting with no cant. If shooting with cant could be nock high and weak indicating.
Sometimes, arrows dropping past 20 or 25 yards is simply due to the grains per pound... too heavy ant they drop off quick.
Quote from: slowbowjoe on March 29, 2020, 10:03:16 PM
Sometimes, arrows dropping past 20 or 25 yards is simply due to the grains per pound... too heavy ant they drop off quick.
X2
I think Orion is right. spine issue.
I can shoot Douglas fir 65/70 out of my 50-55 # bows. 29" long with 160 grn broadheads. Three 5 inch feathers, but four 4 inch works well too.
I am gonna bet this might just be fixed by using larger fletching. If not then heavier spine and larger fletching.
JMHO
Thanks everyone,
Petrichor, not much of a cant when I shoot. Hopefully I will have time this evening to fiddle with nocking point and see if that helps.
Slowbowjoe, I shoot a similar weight arrow with my aluminum, what I'm seeing is less of a loss of power and more like wind planing but always down?
Quote from: Kbob on March 30, 2020, 07:15:49 AM
Thanks everyone,
Petrichor, not much of a cant when I shoot. Hopefully I will have time this evening to fiddle with nocking point and see if that helps.
Slowbowjoe, I shoot a similar weight arrow with my aluminum, what I'm seeing is less of a loss of power and more like wind planing but always down?
What is current knocking point and are you shooting split or three under?
Sorry for the lack of reply everyone, internet seems overloaded here in MT and I've been having issues getting things to post.
Update, Lodgepole (stronger spine) arrows seem to be working well. However we have had some serious wind so I haven't shot more than 15 yards. My nock point was about 1/8" high and that has appeared to clean up the dropping point end. We have better weather in the forecast so I should be able to stretch out the range this weekend and see how things look at 20-25 yards.
1/8 seems low. Too low of nocking point will cause back of arrow to hit shelf popping the back up driving arrow into dirt. Might I recommend bumping up to 3/8 when you test from longer distances. 3/8 is usually where I start when tuning a bow and moving up from there if necessary. Low nocking point might not reveal itself with the thinner carbon arrows. With the thicker wood this issue would be exaggerated.
When I have that issue of broad heads dropping, first thin I do is nock the arrow with cock feather IN rather than out... see if it then flies high, or spot on... which usually indicates a point, shaft, or nock alignment issue.
I have a cob job spin tester, and highly recommend you rig one up to spin check. Can be as simple as a couple pair of crossed nails on a piece of scrap lumber. Or, a couple bucks at the local hardware store for some roller bearings (lots of kinds available). This rig will also give you an excellent reading as to whether the shaft itself is straight.
Also... while "shooting the same weight BH and field point" is highly touted, you might try going up or down a little on BH weight and see what happens.
Thanks Guys,
Petrichor, sorry I realize now how I said that made no sense. I was at 1/2" high on the nock, now it is 3/8" high.
Slowbowjoe, I picked up some bearings. Hopefully this weekend I can put one together. Good call turning the arrow around, makes sense as a quick check. If I cant get these BH to work I will consider dropping weight. Just trying to make use of what I have on hand.
Thank you Everyone! Arrows are flying true even in the April blizzard we are having right now. From what i can tell it was a little bit of nock high, a little bit of weak spine and a little broadhead alignment so i'll give everyone the credit if it comes together on a turkey next weekend. :clapper:
If I can get them to post I'll finally follow up with some pics.
Quote from: Kbob on April 03, 2020, 02:20:12 PM
Thank you Everyone! Arrows are flying true even in the April blizzard we are having right now. From what i can tell it was a little bit of nock high, a little bit of weak spine and a little broadhead alignment so i'll give everyone the credit if it comes together on a turkey next weekend. :clapper:
If I can get them to post I'll finally follow up with some pics.
Glad to hear it!!