So I've watched and read a lot on Dr. Ashbys research on efoc arrows and I want to give them a try. I've searched the forums and got a good idea of what I need to do but I'm kind of overwhelmed when it comes to shaft selection.
I live in a small remote town so the nearest archery store is 3 hours away. I might be able to find someone top cut my arrows but it would be easier for me to have them pre cut and then tune using point weight and side plate adjustments.
I'm looking for a good shafts to order that can get me into the efoc uefoc range.
Here's me setup
Bear super kodiak with reinforced tips
10 strand ff string
45# at 28"I pull 29.25 inches
Any suggestions would be great, I know this is a common topic on the forum so thank you for your patience and help.
your gonna need to be able to cut your own arrows, so get a dremel and cut off wheels or something. its just part of the carbon tuning thing. just saying.. :thumbsup:
Yeh I literally cut my arrows with my dremel by hand. I do it from the nock end so I can glue my insert into the shaft yet still be able to shorten the arrow while bare shafting. After I cut it I just hold it up at eye level and flatten it so it looks good. I'm sure it isn't perfect to the thousandth of an inch but it works great!
This was a must for me because if you get them too short from someone else you are screwed.
Depending on where you want to end up with overall arrow weight look for the lightest stiff arrow you can find and start with them full length.
I bought field points up to 300grns.
I think 3 rivers has a test kit with 3 different spines arrows. Maybe they will sell you 3 heavy spined ones.
You'll probably shoot a .400 or .350 with a 300grn point with your setup but don't quote me on that.
Patience will be your best bet.
Good luck!
I guess I'll have to get a dremel then.
Any suggestions for shafts that will work for me?
If I buy a test kit will one 400 spine shaft be close enough to another brand in the same spine?
This is what I use,much better than a dremel.
https://www.harborfreight.com/2-in-mini-bench-top-cut-off-saw-62136.html
Hey, thanks for that link, that looks like a good option.
Easton bloodline arrows are fairly light and affordable. You can also get brass inserts for them.
I will check this out. I realize it's going to take a lot of tinkering but it's a bit daunting for my first time. Thank you all for the help.
I also cut my arrows with a dremel. I've ruined a few though and it's not as easy as I imagined. One thing that I found helped is what my hunting partner recommended. I clamp the dremel down. Then I slowly bring the arrow towards it on a block, and gently rotate the arrow to cut it smoothly. I use the G5 arrow squaring device to finish off.
I will be investing in the little saw that another poster listed. I found these handy instructions for a pretty bomber arrow saw on the cheap. I haven't made one yet but it looks great.
https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2014/01/custom-arrow-archery-saw-cutting/
Not sure if this applies to your situation but i'm really happy with easton trad only arrows (sold on 3 rivers).
I also live far from an archery shop. Just figured out how to remove inserts so i'm pretty happy that i'm now finally independent when it comes to arrow work and rework!
Thank you for the link. I'll be setting up something similar. Will the blade on that saw suffice or will it splinter three carbon?
For EFOC arrows you'll want light shafts and heavy points. A good budget option is Gold Tip Velocity arrows and gold tip 100gr brass inserts. As was said before, cut your arrows with a dremel and then square them on an arrow squaring device (ASD). I have the carbon express ASD and I like it. not as good as the G5 but much cheaper. Just make sure you get as close to square as you can with the dremel.
If you are going with 300gr points and a 100gr insert, you will likely want 340 or 400 spine. 400 might be cutting it close though...
It is really hard to get EFOC arrows that aren't >13-14 grains per pound of draw weight.
Quote from: BearBandit on February 24, 2020, 12:30:56 PM
Thank you for the link. I'll be setting up something similar. Will the blade on that saw suffice or will it splinter three carbon?
I don't have experience with the blade on the saw but the field and stream article suggests it will splinter carbon, and they suggest an alternate blade.
There are so many options haha, I've been looking at arrows for 2 days steady now. Are tapered shafts worth the price? Is arrow dynamics a good shaft because their prices seem pretty reasonable compared to grizzly stick. Or should I just stick with a parallel shaft?
Thanks again everyone who answered
The key to getting EFOC or UEFOC is getting a light arrow shaft. I've attained UEFOC over 30 % with shafts from both Victory and Black Eagle. Look for shafts with a weight of around 7 gpi.
My current set up is 31.5% foc with Black Eagle, X Impacts 400 spine cut 29.375" and 346gr up front (including outsert). Currently using 4" fletch but they fly just like darts with 3" too. Total weight = 560 gr. And shoot great from either a 56# Big River R/D or a 51# Adcock ACS R/D.
Quote from: BearBandit on February 23, 2020, 09:44:22 PM
I guess I'll have to get a dremel then.
Any suggestions for shafts that will work for me?
If I buy a test kit will one 400 spine shaft be close enough to another brand in the same spine?
I would get 1/2 dozen 400 spine arrows. With 400 spine you should be able to achieve your goal. Your gonna need more than one.
I have built arrows from both parallel shafts and the AD shafts. Each has its own place. I think the first question should be why are you wanting to build EFOC or UEFOC shafts.
I have been active here when Ashby's stuff came out. It can be beneficial with the right bow for special needs on large, heavy hide and boned game. If thats your requirement reason pleas tell us. FOC of 20% is good enough.
OK, so lets say you need these arrows for large thick skinned beasties. I would, as has been said above, start with something about 400 spine in a parallel shaft or in the case of AD shafts 325 in the Hammerhead or 350 in the Stinger. There is a listing for X-lite at 7.8 gpi for that arrow. Be sure, if you order from AD you request the highest priced shafts. These will be the straightest and closest in weight shaft to shaft.
Now the fun begins. You will need to "tune" these slowly to your bow and your form. This can mean adding weight up front while shortening the shaft. On the AD's I always shortened from the front and added weight.
A heavy arrow on a 45# bow will lose flight pretty quick (my experience) after about 20+/- yards. You need to make the choice.
Just my thoughts.....
I don't take shots at animals over 15 yards, I killed my doe this year at under 8. My plan is to hang up the rifle and use my recurve to harvest a moose this year. I was shooting zwickeys last year with glue in adapters for a point weight of 175gr.
Thank you for the help and suggestions.
The Harbor Freight saw is plenty good and the original blade will last for many dozen shafts. I measure the shafts. Then put a piece of blue tape where the cut will be. I don't get any splinters that way. One of the best $25 investments I made. Half of what my Dremal cost.
Isn't carbon dust something to be avoided when cutting arrows?
For sure it is, I'll either wear a mask or setup my shop vac
I turned the blade around backwards in the harbor freight saw. It sands rather than bites into the shaft. Takes a second longer to cut but after building a little jig for my arrows they come out square and no splinters.
That is great info, thank you sir.
I bought very thin kerf abrasive cutoff blades for my Harbor Freight saw 4-5 years ago. I think I got several and still on the first one.
Quote from: Pete McMiller on February 28, 2020, 07:52:34 AM
I bought very thin kerf abrasive cutoff blades for my Harbor Freight saw 4-5 years ago. I think I got several and still on the first one.
Do you remember where you got them? So I can order both at once.
Sorry Tyler, don't remember where I ordered them from. I've got the package at home but I'm traveling and won't be home until mid April.
You are probably pulling 48 or 49 pounds at your draw length.
Here are some light but stiff shafts to consider so you can get EFOC without getting an arrow that is super heavy.
Carbon Tech Cheetah shafts are very light. With a 400 shaft, 125 gr brass insert and a 200 to 300 grain head you should be over 30% FOC and still around or under 550 grains or so. You can buy these shafts from Lancaster Archery one at a time so you don't have to invest in a half dozen just to experiment.
Gold Tip Velocity shafts are also very light, but not as light as the CT Cheetah shafts. A 500 shaft with a total of 250 grains up front should get you in the ball park with a weight a bit under 500 grains and an FOC of about 25%. Again, Lancaster Archery sells these shafts one at a time so you don't have to invest a lot to experiment.
Quote from: smokin joe on February 29, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
You are probably pulling 48 or 49 pounds at your draw length.
Here are some light but stiff shafts to consider so you can get EFOC without getting an arrow that is super heavy.
Carbon Tech Cheetah shafts are very light. With a 400 shaft, 125 gr brass insert and a 200 to 300 grain head you should be over 30% FOC and still around or under 550 grains or so. You can buy these shafts from Lancaster Archery one at a time so you don't have to invest in a half dozen just to experiment.
Gold Tip Velocity shafts are also very light, but not as light as the CT Cheetah shafts. A 500 shaft with a total of 250 grains up front should get you in the ball park with a weight a bit under 500 grains and an FOC of about 25%. Again, Lancaster Archery sells these shafts one at a time so you don't have to invest a lot to experiment.
Awesome, this is exactly the type of advice I was looking for. The arrow choice is mind boggling.
Thank you sir
Tyler, I just did a Tradgang search and found this:
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=8594.msg136621#msg136621.
Then went to ebay and found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x1-32x3-8-Abrasive-Cut-Off-Wheel-Arrow-Saw-Blade-QTY-3-FREE-SHIPPING/174104056211?hash=item2889691193:g:ovYAAOSwoydWisd-
Not sure if these are the exact ones I have without being home but they look similar.
Perfect thank you, I want sure what to look for. I'm away working on a pipeline so I'm slowly putting together a plan and an order for when I get home.
One more question, are micro diameter arrows ok because I found some with a ridiculously low gpi.
Yes they work great. I shoot Black Eagle, X-Impacts that are .166 ID. The key with any shaft of course is getting them tuned as good as you can.
I've been playing with this for quite a few years now and have currently settled on the Valkyrie sleeve/adaptor system with a variety of broad-heads, usually Tuffheads. Valkyrie is expensive but compared to any other light shaft system I find that I break them far less than other light shaft/heavy head/insert combinations. I've shot them into heavy bone on moose and mountain goats and smashed through the spine of a big blacktail earlier this year plus lots of oblique and direct hits on wood and rock while stumping and still haven't had a failure on the front end. I've played with some of the Ethics archery products as well and they were good but not quite as good. Best of luck!
Thanks for your post Paul, a question. Originally, Brent had specialized threads on the Valkyrie system that only fit his broadheads and field points. Does Valkyrie use standard 8-32 threads now?
I have looked at both Valkyrie and Ethics systems but haven't tried them yet as my X-Impact shafts seem to be very durable by themselves.
The valkyrie sleeves still require heads that use his proprietary system. He does make some broadheads that fit 8-32's but, in my opinion, the real benefit of Valkyrie stuff lies in the sleeve/pin combination that creates a really tough front end. What I do to save cost and utilize other heads that I like is buy the Valkyrie broadhead adaptors and then put mount my glue-on head of choice. I've done that with Tuffhead, Abowyer, and Grizzly and had good luck aligning all of them them. I still swallow hard at the cost but they are really durable.
Thanks Paul, good info.
Victory makes some great ultra lite gpi shafts. Those would be my go to if I was going to build a UEFOC arrow. Right now I'm running about 22% Foc and they're tuned and work great. If I draw one of these elk tags then I will still be shooting for a 550gr arrow but with higher FOC
This turned into a great thread. I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed, I got a lot to get me started now.
Yep.....great stuff.
Well I took the plunge tonight. I bought a fletching tool, a saw, feathers etc and decided to go with victory RIP xv with a gpi of 5.9 in a 400 spine.
I also ordered inserts and footings from ethics archery and a set of test field points in multiple weights.
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Itll take a while but when I start making progress I'll report back.
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Thanks again everyone
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Really sad that no heavy head sponsors even respond to thiis thread, or the others that have been running for weeks. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I didn't even think of checking the sponsor's, if any of them had chimed in I probably would have ended up a customer. On the plus side my stuff is at the border so when it clears it shouldn't be too much longer to my door.
Well all my stuff showed up. I'll be working on building an arrow saw then on to playing with my new arrows. I never thought I'd be building my own arrows but I'm pretty pumped.
Ok so here's what I'm working with
Victory gamer v3 rip xv 400
Ethics archery 185 grain insert outsert
And field points that range from 100 t0 200 grain
So I left the arrows full length and started with full insert weightStarted shooting at 15 yards arrows showed nock right so increased the weight up front.
Long story short I was shooting the 200grain points with 185 grain inserts before they started showing a slight weak spine.
I'm going to shoot a bit more before i make any adjustments and to confirm what I'm seeing but does this sound right?
45# super kodiak
10 strand ff string
29.5ish draw
How far should i be bareshafting at?
I should add arrows grouped well and I was hitting where I was aiming. Started to open up as I got tired so I stopped but I'll go for another round after dinner.
Your results sound about right to my experience. Don't be in a rush to cut them down, those arrows are not overly long to start with. Shoot the bare shafts as far as you are comfortable shooting. The farther the better for really viewing the flight. For reference I'm currently tuning a new arrow setup too. Been bare shafting into my target, stump shooting and shooting through paper for several days to confirm a slight weak before trimming a 1/2" off.
400 spine (250) CX Maxima hunter, 32" long, 100 gr inserts, 200 gr points from a 53 lb at my 28" draw Thunderhorn LB.
It is easy to cut too short because those heavy FOC arrows tend to correct themselves no matter what. But try that bare shaft out of a tree stand or a hard lean over or from sitting before you cut it off. Also put some fresh silencers on before cutting.
Trick - If you can shoot a broad head on a bare shaft and get it to fly straight at about 10-12 yards (which is possible with EFOC) then it is probably too stiff with feathers. An even slightly stiff shaft will hit left with broad heads (RH shooter)
Tedd
I'll shoot a bunch more before I commit to cutting. I can go pull my self climber out and take some shots as well. Thanks for the advice.
I was under the impression that you never bare shaft with a broad head.
I'm showing just slightly weak at the moment, I started at 10 yards, went to 15 and was still hitting where I was aiming at 20
Correct...never shoot a broad head on a bare shaft! Unless you have a controlled test area, and at close range, with a previously well tuned shaft. I do it about once a year. I don't know if there is any value in it. But it is nice to see when you get it to fly. It's not something that is needed. Just something for thinking about. The left or right you are having will be exaggerated with the broad head.
Tedd
Well after shooting about 40 arrows today. Bare shafting I'm getting a consistent weak (nock left) I tried going down to a 175 and it was showing slightly stiff then back up to 200 and I get slightly weak consistently when I do my part.
I've also taken this opportunity to really focus on my back tension and expansion before my release. Man you can sure tell when it all clicks together. I had a couple ends where I was a afraid I blew the nock off my first arrow. And they sure hit hard.
Nice work! I've also found it remarkable how much better penetrating and forgiving these kinds of setups are. There are others with more experience than I have but to my mind slight weak bare shaft is perfect. Once you add the weight of feathers on the nock end you'll have effectively stiffened the dynamic spine and should be just about perfect. Best of luck with your setup.
Thanks for the advice, I'm going to try some paper tuning hopefully today and make my decision tomorrow on leaving these full length or not