Paging guys who've killed lots of critters!
Serrations make sense to me as a way to preserve cutting potential of a broadhead after contact with dirt, hair, and bone on entrance, as well as to catch a few extra blood vessels on the way through the lungs. But I haven't found a good tradgang discussion on the topic, despite using my very best google skills. :biglaugh:
So, I figured I'd ask what y'all think about the topic? Useful addition to broadheads? Anyone deem them necessary for personal confidence? Any downside to them, other than sharpening? I'm half tempted to file some into my VPA 3 blades, just because I can. :scared:
Serrated broadheads have been around a long time. One year at Shrewhaven a few of the guys were using Raptor Broadheads. Two blade concave design with scallop edges like a steak knife blade. I think the extra work if doing yourself or cost if manufactured is prohibitive.
I did a quick search and here's a picture of one for sale on one of the auction sites. These were used in late 1990's at camp by some
I've never tried using a serrated broadhead, but if my experience with bread knives is at all relevant, they are difficult to sharpen. I can easily get any knife in my house shaving sharp in minutes, but I've never been able to get a serrated bread knife as sharp as it was when it was new.
I believe Howard Hill's method of sharpening his heads involved dragging the side edge of the file across the sharpened blade to create tiny serration on the finished edge. Seems to have worked for him. I've never done it with Hill or other broadheads.
as ray said they have been around a long time. millennia infact. stone points are all serrated, just the size of the serrations vary.
I have never understood the claim hair dulling a hunting edge on a quality head.
Quote from: Terry Green on January 25, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
I have never understood the claim hair dulling a hunting edge on a quality head.
Agreed Terry. I've always liked sharpening my own heads and non serrated heads (except one year at Shrewhaven in early 2000 Ron was using/ selling a serrated two and 4 blade stainless steel head that was presharpened to razor edge and I used them to take a couple of does in camp).
Now it's Kustom King Trailmakers 3 blade. Great head and amazing blood trail.
I don't know how much hair dulls blades, but I do know a serrated blade will cut circles around a straight blade.
If you don't believe me go out to the garage and get a piece of heavy rope and cut it with your hunting knife then cut it with an equally sharp serrated blade such as comes on a leatherman. The only problem is they are a pain in the a$$ to sharpen. Just my take on the subject! :dunno:
Agreed, no one cuts bread without a serrated blade(bread knife) but much harder to sharpen and probably not necessary.
Quote from: Terry Green on January 25, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
I have never understood the claim hair dulling a hunting edge on a quality head.
Everything is cumulative, don't you think? It may not dull the head much, but what if you also catch two ribs, after busting through that thick clod of dried dirt on the side of a big hog? I'm not arguing that the straight edge will get the job done. I've seen plenty of big dead pigs in your pictures, Terry. Usually from a Zwicky Delta, right? But most broadheads are only hardened to 52-54 RC, which isn't great. A quality knife sits at 58-60 in general.
I'm just wondering how many extra drops of blood I can get into the grass if I have little protected serrations that will still be razor sharp, instead of mostly sharp, when they get to the good stuff after a bumpy ride through hogzilla's shield.
I will say that the most impressive blood trail I've ever seen was not from my beloved Simmons sharks, but from a Magnus Black Hornet Ser razor. Just a simple shot through the lungs on a whitetail doe, which is actually why I started this thread. It got me thinking, which can be trouble.
double post
Trumpkin....my post was just about hair. If it has no effect then it's not cumulative. :campfire:
Quote from: bucknut on January 25, 2020, 08:08:47 PM
I don't know how much hair dulls blades.
So you've never shaved? :campfire:
I don't like serrated blades. A straight edge gives a much cleaner cut than a serrated blade. The more ragged cut of a serrated edge clots faster than the smooth cut of a straight edge. It's not going to make a difference if the broadhead passes thru the lungs or heart, but on a marginal hit I want the cut to bleed as long as possible.
If a straight edge is so inferior to a serrated edge why is the cutting edge of a Samurai sword straight? They will cut through a 2" hanging rope.
I am sure when placed through the goodies of any animal each will do the job well. I just see the serrated edge slowing down faster on a direct hit through a rib bone.
I don't see a straight edge as inferior, per say. Just a different set of benefits to it... namely a slight increase in penetration, and easier sharpening.
The potential benefit of a serrated blade? 1 or 2 extra blood vessels get cut that might have rolled off the slightly dulled edge of a straight bladed broadhead.
And I dunno about anyone else who shaves, but my razor blades do get dull.
I'll stick with a straight razor cut. I've shot through many animals and still been able to shave with the arrow afterwards.
When you shave one time you will cut more hair that you will shooting a deer.
Maybe you use a new razor every shave, but I get at least 2 weeks out of either a disposal or my old timey razor. And a razor blade is not a durable edge. Hair is a non issue IMO.
Just a thought - maybe serrated works on bread because of the sawing action?
Quote from: Phillip Fields on January 26, 2020, 08:41:01 AM
I don't like serrated blades. A straight edge gives a much cleaner cut than a serrated blade. The more ragged cut of a serrated edge clots faster than the smooth cut of a straight edge. It's not going to make a difference if the broadhead passes thru the lungs or heart, but on a marginal hit I want the cut to bleed as long as possible.
This is my point of view as well. Having cut myself with both types of blades proves this to be true for me.
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Any blade's cutting is accomplished by using energy. The energy can be applied to the blade (example, a broadhead in flight) or to the object (example, pulling a rubber band over a stationary blade).
The energy is typically spread along the cutting edge of any blade. A serrated blade actually focuses energy to the points of the serrations, and that's why a very sharp serrated blade will often out-perform a smooth blade on tough jobs. It's the reason a serrated blade cuts a seatbelt, heavy rope, thick tendons and so on with less effort (energy) than a straight blade. I've used both blade types to butcher an entire bull moose...several in fact...and a very sharp serrated knife blade makes the job at least 33% easier. Of course all serrated blades aren't created equal, and there are different types of serrations which cut more effectively.
Yes, a serrated cut is a more jagged cut. Think of 20 little blades working at once instead of one continuous blade edge. A serrated blade actually has one disadvantage I've found, which is....on a knife at least....it tends to collect uncut hair inside the serrations, thus reducing cutting efficiency. I can't speak for a fast-flying serrated broadhead however.
I won't use a serrated broadhead for one reason: I only use resharpenable heads and I'm not about to sit down and sharpen all those little serrations. Period.
The only time I apply serrations is when I am hunting turkeys. I use Zwickey deltas and serrate the rear 1/2 inch of both blades. This seems to slow penetration through the bird, creating an impressive wound channel. Serrating broadheads, in the fashion I describe, has the unfortunate tendency of making them hiss or whistle in flight. The turkeys I have taken didn't seem to notice, however I believe deer most assuredly would. For other game a shaving sharp broadhead does the job.
Malachi-
Given the same keen edge on a broadhead, I think the serrated may have a smidgen over the non-serrated. So let's say serrated 1.5 to non-serrated 1. When you think about being able to touch-up or re-sharpen in the field I think that wholly sways to the non-serrated so now we are 1.5 - 3.5. Then I think there might be some edge durability to think about that the serrated might have so that puts it at 2 or 2.5 to 3.5.
Arbitrary values aside... I think being able to keep a non-serrated edge very sharp at all times with minimal tools is my deciding factor. I have a Buddy that can get a pocket knife with serrations (more "scallops" than what you would think of on a serrated kitchen knife) wicked sharp, but it takes time and a round, tapered diamond file. Lots fiddling with it...
My wife used to shoot the Magnus Stinger Buzz Cuts very effectively but we just had a hard time keeping them as sharp as she liked so she switched to the regular Stingers.
In killing game I think there would be the barest of margins, but an advantage is an advantage if you can keep them sharp.
OkKeith
Another thing about serrated blades: The points of the serrations actually serve to protect the inner concave portion from dulling due to contact with bone or other hard material. The tip of the serrations rides across the bone.
If it weren't for sharpening them...and if I could get the exact type of serrations I wanted...I would definitely shoot a serrated broadhead. I can't prove it, but I'm convinced they would out-perform a straight edge in certain types of hits. Testing would be needed to confirm that however.
Cant add to the thread other than this knife sharpener that will return a serrated edged knife to new or better, we have a pretty good drawer of higher end knives in our kitchen, i think it cost around 25 bucks.
Quote from: Patknight on January 27, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
Cant add to the thread other than this knife sharpener that will return a serrated edged knife to new or better, we have a pretty good drawer of higher end knives in our kitchen, i think it cost around 25 bucks.
Certainly a worthy addition to this thread if it will help me to sharpen serrated blades. I'm going to try one.
As many have commented... not all "serrations" are the same.
The better knives with serrations look like scallops along the edge. Each scallop forming a small crescent shaped cutting surface with a point on either side. Using knives as an example, other serrations are a row of long sharp and very close together points (more saw blade than knife edge). I don't know of any way to sharpen these. The reason they work well on bread is that they function more like a saw blade that clears the kerf before removing more material.
I think we have the old Ginsu Knife commercials in our heads! Well... those of us that were around then I suppose. "Serrated" has a certain connotation to us.
I think it would be interesting to see some performance info on a serrated vs non-serrated broadheads. GOOD info! I'm sure there is some basement YouTuber out there that has done this. They have probably shot broadheads into plywood, trach cans full of gravel and stuffed animals.
OkKeith
Serrated blades may be good for cutting ropes and such but flesh, Ill stick with my straight edge. Never been a fan of serrated anything except for cutting bread. Just my opinion.
Not sure if you can compare a serrated blade to a serrated broadhead. Different applications and use of energy.
Magnus broadheads swears their serrated broad head out preforms their other broad heads hands down. I'm a long time user of Magnus broadheads. Love them have used them for years. However I've not used the serrated broadheads. But Magnus recommends a simple carbide sharpener.
For me personally I've used a ROUGH diamond hone to make my broadheads RAZOR individual hair shaving sharp for years with great results. I don't go to 1200 grit for sharpness. So it's like a serrated edge but incredibly sharp. Works for me much like when Fred Bear did file sharping. But I take it up a step.
I have a Cutco serrated knife that works great for cutting at the joints of the legs and neck. Isn't worth a flip for skinning or boning out the meat.
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Quote from: GCook on January 27, 2020, 07:36:11 PM
I have a Cutco serrated knife that works great for cutting at the joints of the legs and neck. Isn't worth a flip for skinning or boning out the meat.
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I have the same knife, and my results are about the opposite of yours...it cuts everything in its path :)
Not a fan of serrated blades in general, and don't see how they would cut mor blood vessels than a straight blade unless they stayed in the animal...the leading edge of the serration would dull just like a straight blade, and on a pass through, the trailing edge of the serration would not really have any use for increased cutting
I'm not saying it won't cut it. I'm saying the cuts are not of the quality I expect for my meat processing or ease of processing.
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i think if the points of the serration are very sharp there shouldn't be any problem, since the inner scollopped portion are just secondary cutting edges, and only half of it will cut in one direction. just saying.
Not at all argumentative here...
The Cutco 5718 with Double-D serrated blade is exactly the knife I've used to completely butcher and de-bone consecutive bull moose. My personal experience has been this serrated blade cuts through connective tissue very easily and it slices through muscle with basically no effort. The main thing it does (again, for me) is to vastly reduce the effort of cutting. Those serrations (specific to a Cutco knife) are phenomenal. They cannot be sharpened at home or in the field due to the shape of the serrations. Cutco sharpens them for free and they are scalpel-sharp.
What does any of this have to do with broadheads? Likely nothing that can be proved. I guess if Cutco ever decides to offer serrated broadheads I'd be tempted to try them...but there's NO chance of that. And besides, I'm still not ever going to muck around trying to sharpen a serrated broadhead x 2 edges x 12 heads. Nope. I'll kill with a slick edge and then butcher big critters with a serrated blade.
Wow I don't know much about anything but tell y'all I'm getting a Cutco knife immediately!!! Thanks
How much cutting do the scallops do or are the points just going through and pushing tissue away so it doesn't touch the scallops.
Cutco makes quality knives. I need to send mine in. We have a whole home set as well. Solid purchase regardless.
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One of the Wensels wrote an article years ago about sharpening and serating broadheads. If either of them did it it can't be that bad!! This was prob 20 years ago. I can't remember what magazine but he also mentioned these cutco knives being mentioned saying they were the sharpest knives he ever used. I have no personal experience serating broadheads tho
What really impressed me was the way my serrated blade cut through the mane area on a bull elk. Blew me away. I have found a way to get a pretty good fast edge on them. I have a set of Spyderco crock sticks that are triangular. They will make any edge hair popping sharp! Serrated blades included. Just not quite what the factory edge is.
Tom Mussatto did a great clip on the Tradgang video on how to mini serrated heads. Good stuff!
I used the serrated stinger heads for quite a while when I was younger. I shot them out of a compound but once the arrow is in the deer the head is doing damage one way or the other so I guess assuming a pass-through with each bow it would be a fair comparison. I was always happy with how they performed. Left a good blood trail and never had any issues with penetration out of them. Mine had the bleeder vanes as well.
Quote from: Cory Mattson on January 28, 2020, 09:27:50 AM
Wow I don't know much about anything but tell y'all I'm getting a Cutco knife immediately!!! Thanks
I used to sell them door to door in college. Their knives were incredible. I used to love the life demonstration part of the job.
The look on their face when they'd walk in with their $$$ best knife to cut through the 1/4" piece of leather and it fail to do so. Then I'll pull out my pairing knife and slice through it like butter.
If they ever make a broadhead with cutco serrations, I'm in.
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Quote from: Terry Green on February 01, 2020, 02:44:44 PM
Tom Mussatto did a great clip on the Tradgang video on how to mini serrated heads. Good stuff!
Ok, I'll weigh in. I use Tom's method...which is actually Howard Hill's method of putting micro serrations in the blade. Wicked sticky sharp when done correctly. If you are sharpening "challenged" you can get the same effect using a round chainsaw file. These edges stay sharp after much abuse and are easy to touch up in the field also. Whatever you do, get them sharp enough to bite into your nail then go hunt. Don't need to overthink sharp.... if you "can't" or are sharpening impaired then get the rada wheel and move on.
Like many of you, I have experimented with the serrations of a broadhead and the effect on game. Know this it does not matter when you place the arrow in the "boiler room". But when it comes on a marginal hit, without a doubt a serrated edge will always be better than a straight blade. the edge of either is always super sharp, but there is a reason why surgeons use laser sharp scalpels, and hate in the ER to take care of a laceration instead of incision. Just my opinion.
Here's something I posted about 10 years ago....
...Just an experiment I did.
Didn't really come to any conclusions...but there were some interesting results
Anymore I just do a polished 3 blade edge...way easier and I know it works.
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=43203.msg729255#msg729255