This may take a bit of time to explain so please bear with me.
Last year (2019) we noticed a significant and sudden decline in attendance at 3D shoots at the half dozen clubs in our area, much of the decline being in young people and new shooters. Note that many of our new shooters are shooting stickbows. There could be several reasons for the decline but I want to focus on one I call distance creep.
Years ago in this area we all shot from the same pegs, stickbows and compounds. As compounds became more efficient, the distances to the targets began to increase. At some point we began placing traditional pegs to keep stickbow distances reasonable. However we have got to the point where all compounds shooters are now using releases and compounds are even faster and flatter shooting perhaps due in part to the advent of carbon arrows. This has led to shooting distances increasing yet again. Not a problem for compounds but the traditional distances have been creeping up as a byproduct of this. And this may be a problem as I will explain.
Over the last couple of years I have seen several instances where newer and less experienced trad shooters ran out of arrows before the day was out. One example involved a young lad that was very enthusiastic about his first shoot. His parents were very supportive and came along to document the day with photos. By lunch time he had lost all of his arrows and was very discouraged. I never saw him again. I have seen other instances of the same thing and if I am seeing this, others are too. Lets add up the cost. Average round trip distance 100 miles.
Gas $20
Registration$20
Lunch $10
Lost arrows $60
That is a total cost of $110. (This is in Canadian $$) He may as well take up golf.
I have always maintained that people attend shoots to enjoy themselves and have fun, not to break or lose equipment. That did not happen for our young archer.
If we are to attract and keep young trad shooters people (the future of our sport) to our shoots we need to create an environment where they can experience a good time and some measure of success. Stretching out the shooting distances achieves the opposite. For those of us who are average or better shooters there is still the eleven ring for a challenge if we keep distances more reasonable. We can also make the shots shorter but more interesting. And if we start seeing perfect trad scores thats the time to think about increasing the range.
I would be interested in your opinions.
Most of the 3d's i attend put the max trad distance at 30 yards unless the target is huge(think elk or Standing Grizzly). However I feel if a person doesn't turn in their card they should shoot within their comfort zone. I don't turn in my card as I think about just shooting better than the last time-couldn't care less where that would place me. Just my two cents.
Any 3D shoots I attend and if there is a new shooter I always tell them to shoot from where they are comfortable with. And most if not all clubs will also tell them the same thing.
Am quite fortunate to live in an area that has numerous 3D clubs. Several years back, the traditional guys here, incurred the same issues as you described. Shooting turkeys and javelinas at 25 and 30 yards was a tough road to hold for many.
I, personally, worked with approximately five local clubs to not just accommodate the traditional class but other classes also.
For example:
A 3D elk is set at 50 yards which is max for an open class. The stakes for the other classes would be set at their corresponding max.
Many stakes are set using range finder verification for each stake with regard only to the max limit for the pertinent class. I had built some simplified charts such
Only the furthest target distant target needs to be verified and the other classes could be stepped back thus, maintain virtually the same difficulty level.
We seldom encounter excessive ranged targets for the traditional class.
Note: I make approximately 25 to 30 shoots per year.
It took a couple of seasons in working patiently and effectively conveying our genuine gratitude to accomplish the goal
BE INVOVED
I always advise anyone who asks to set up easier rather than harder. The same guys are gonna be at the top regardless, so it might as well be set up so everyone can have fun.
That being said, shoots like State Championships or IBO World Traditional should be a bit on the tougher side, as you are trying to find out who the best of the best is!!!
JMHO!!!!
Bisch
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I wish there were more and closer 3d shoots here.
I dont think your decline in participation is solely limited to range. Sure it may have for the one young fellow.
How involved personally, are you with setting up the courses? Perhaps the clubs would benefit from trad minded input while setting the course? If left to the few guys who are willing to work who know nothing of trad, then the stakes are often set without thought.
agree tough shots get old. I went to one shoot where 30 yard shots at frogs and skunks were common. I broke and lost several arrows. That wasnt what kept me from going back, it was the beer cans laying all over the course and the slobs who ran the club.
I also think if a person is signing up archers, it would be a great time to tell newbies to shoot from whatever safe spot they wish. The common mindset otherwise is to tell people to follow the predetermined guidelines with thexassumption everyone is there to win.
Also with more involvement, you'd be able to get names and contacts to reach out for feedback. I always appreciated the clubs that made an effort to appease the trad crowd. In time trad shooters made up the majority of their attendees.
You have to gauge why the majority have stopped coming. Is there an overall cold shoulder to tradxshooters aside from stake distance?
I eventually began attending trad only shoots, mainly because of the long distances most compound clubs set up.
One factor may be the tendency of younger generations not to want to participate in things that take all day. Country clubs around here where memberships once sold in excess of $30,000 are now readily available for less than $5,000. Our archery club has had an increase in younger members, and they are in evidence in good numbers on weekends for an hour or so, and sometimes early in the morning before work. But I also have noticed a falling off in attendance at all day tournaments.
I shoot a lot of IBO shoots-and think that the distances are pretty fair. The only problem I see is keeping the smaller targets are a more reasonable distance. You should not have a moose at 12 yards and a pig at 30.
I hear ya Jock, I see new shooters make all kinds of bad moves on 3d courses and the local range, mostly they been mislead into thinking that they have to shoot where others do, I like to tell them that looking for and loosing arrows is no fun so shoot where you feel comfortable from, when your arrows are gone your done what fun is that. I also have access to 3d shoots year round and we never keep score and shoot from where we want to as long as it's safe, alot of times it may be from the further stakes, but we have fun with it. Competing with others who have been shooting a long time is no way to keep new shooters interested, it has to be fun first.
Over the last five years or so our local shoots have turned into Las Vegas Nationals. The full blown compound target guys outnumber compound hunters 5-1. Traditional guys, 30-1. But there are alwas trad gus looking or someone to shoot with. Get a group together, attend the shoots, and if the targets are unreasonable, move up.
The whole concept was to attempt to replicate hunting scenarios. If that target is not an ethical shot you would take in the field/woods, don't shoot it.
Setting up a course that everyone will enjoy is a challenge. My observation over years of serving as an officer and board member of a state club is that 50% of your participants can be accurately described as casual shooters. The next 35% are dedicated hunters that put in some practice time. It's only about 15% of shooters that truly compete for the title and usually the same 5% win every time. The top shooters are not paying your bills.
I have occasionally heard people who consider themselves to be elite shooters complain about a course being too easy, but when you check their scores, they are very rarely earning the maximum points available. Usually they are leaving points on the course. It's an archery shoot, not an Easter egg hunt and if people spend the majority of their time looking for arrows they will not return. If you err on the side of enjoyability, you can crank up the competition level in any resulting shoot-offs, which everyone will enjoy watching.
Our trad shooting group often shoot from a distance we feel comfortable with as we go from target to target. That being said, we never turn in score cards either.
On a side note, how the course is laid out ( decent backstops and mowed areas) also contribute to arrow loss. Any improvements making it harder to lose arrows is something the club putting on the shoot need to look at.
Another thing about declining attendance is in my opinion and observation...is you mentioned compounders and the time it takes them to shoot a round. I know sending will let you shoot around them some don't but if there several at a shoot it just backs everything up and it's frustrating to a lot of people. Just my opinion.
Quote from: gregg dudley on January 15, 2020, 10:28:58 AM
Setting up a course that everyone will enjoy is a challenge. My observation over years of serving as an officer and board member of a state club is that 50% of your participants can be accurately described as casual shooters. The next 35% are dedicated hunters that put in some practice time. It's only about 15% of shooters that truly compete for the title and usually the same 5% win every time. The top shooters are not paying your bills.
I have occasionally heard people who consider themselves to be elite shooters complain about a course being too easy, but when you check their scores, they are very rarely earning the maximum points available. Usually they are leaving points on the course. It's an archery shoot, not an Easter egg hunt and if people spend the majority of their time looking for arrows they will not return. If you err on the side of enjoyability, you can crank up the competition level in any resulting shoot-offs, which everyone will enjoy watching.
Agree with everything Greg said.
Also, gets people around the course a little quicker if they're not looking for arrows. My favorite trad only tournament tried this this year, and got a few complaints about dumbing down the course, but as Greg noted, there were no perfect scores turned in. They also did away with arrow destroyer targets, where you either hit the foam bullseye or a steel plate. I'm glad they did that too, as I get no pleasure from breaking arrows, or even from avoiding breaking arrows when I hit the bullseye.
Another kind of target I'd like to see done away with are the kind that are shot close up with hundreds of tiny little figures on them. For me, it is just luck if I hit one or not. I suppose I could practice shooting at tiny dots from 6' and get better at hitting them, but that would serve no useful purpose for me unless I decided to start shooting at flies on a screen door.
I rarely go to 3-D shoots, the ones I do are the trad only shoots. There is usually 7-8 of us that have shot trad for years that go, we aren't in it for the score, we try to challenge each other for bragging rights. We may be closer, or farther than where stakes are set, we try to turn targets into hunting scenerios being mindful of the lay of the course and being safe with our shots. Make it fun and enjoy and forget about scores!!!!
Jason
I too have noticed the distances really stretching out for Traditional. One of the courses at ETAR in July they really had them out there.40, 50, 60 yards. Last spring at the Baltimore Shoot they had their targets long as well. I really don't care much however, as stated above it is difficult for many young shooters. Taking care in setting up challenging shots I think is more important. ( vitals between trees, angled vitals, objects in front of targets, etc making shots fun and interesting. Overall I think Traditional is growing and I'm thankful for that trend.
Attending my second 3D this year on Saturday.
Turnout was very good at the first.
Several years ago I was a newly appointed tournament director at a comp/trad club. After setting the stakes for traditional and compound shooters the day before the shoot, it looked like everything was going good. We were having a good turnout, and everyone was busy.
After several groups had come off the course, I made it a point to ask one of the guys how he like the course. He said that he had missed 12 out of the 20 targets, and that he would never come back to this course again. Then I ask someone that I knew (a good average shooter) what he thought of the course. He replied that it was tough and that he had missed 10 of the 20 targets.
It was obvious now what happened. The compound shooter that I had asked to work with the new range master had, on his own, reset the stakes for traditional. The first target for trad was set at about 33yds, and through a sassafras thicket.
I respect compound shooters, but I won't shoot with them again. This is something that I do for fun.
I am fortunate to live in an area where there are enough shoots within a reasonable driving distance to attend one every week. There is a fair amount of difference in how they set up their courses, which I like.
The courses that I don't care for are the ones where every trad stake is between 12-16 yards. For one; I want some variety. I also shoot much better at targets that are longer. I know it is a mental thing, but I do poorly on close targets.
As far as targets being stretched out there; move up, as many others have said. We do not shoot for trophies, or cash at the local clubs, so if my group doesn't like the stakes, we shoot where we feel comfortable. It is supposed to be fun.
This just my slant >>>--> most clubs setup for compounders/xbows , they just don't have trad in put and rather brag about how far the shot was , not becoming a better hunter/getting in danger close . ( the youth would also benefit from shorter distances) and want a clear shot ( if you want to hear them scream just put a branch/tree across the 12 ring).
The best way to get more Trad guys is having the wheel bow gang try the REAL bows and discovering the joy of the flight of the arrow, not the joy of the next fastest/newest thing. I quit compounds do to being to easy and tech heavy.
It takes some imagination to come up with new target ideals ( spinning turkey heads a real big hit) but most clubs have little time and a set routine target 1 goes 20yrs, 4 goes 30 etc...... never changing the course, not have the time to change things ...gets to be boring. You need the wow target
Sadly & lastly more people work nontraditional work weeks and simply don't have the day off. more after work day shoots might work .
Some clubs are pricing $$ themselves out, kids should shoot free
When you think about it, it's up to us to do something about that... Share your ideas with club members and their organizers when you attend... I know sometimes trad archers are not taken seriously... Ever hear, "I had a bow like that when I was a kid." Or, "Why should we have a Traditional Shoot when less than 10% of archers use recurves or longbows?"
Well, don't we all travel many, many miles to get together? Explain that to right person and get involved somehow....... I did and won't surrender to the other 90%...
... mike ...
At our club we put out 3 stakes pretty easy , kids stake , trad stake longest shot is around 35 yards at big targets. And then the compound guys stake . Everyone is pretty much in there preferred distance .
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Maybe it's just that too many folks have too much money.
Yeah, you heard right; Used to be if your hobby was archery that is what you spent your "extra" cash on.
Now folks are buying into private pay to play sports clubs for their kids, they have their snowmobiles, their dirt bikes, their ATV's, their bass boats, jet skis, Harley's, etc.
And to paraphrase: if your gonna play with everything your not really gonna be good at anything.
Of the TBOT shoots I've been to in Texas the clubs have done a great job of setting up shots I'm mostly capable of at least hitting the target. A buffalo target at fifty yards is a long shot, but also a big chance of at least hitting the foam.
I'm obviously not that top 5%. Shooting without a focused aiming system (instinctive/ intuitive) has me more capable at 20 yards and in and after that it gets less likely I'll score well.
From what I've seen the traditional tournaments are more laid back and less intense than the ones I shot years ago. I'm there for reasons other than seriously competing but still hope to turn in a respectable score.
The drive has kept me from several. Since I'm not an overly "competitive" individual anymore it's difficult to be motivated to get up early on a Saturday morning and drive two to four hours to a shoot where I'm done in an hour and thirty minutes then drive home.
Hopefully I can overcome that obstacle this year and will compete in longbow and recurve divisions to at least have more range time, as well as time to spend around other traditional archers, and make the drives a bit more worth while.
I think the post about people having more busy schedules is valid as well. Even for me I have had to come to the decision to let go of some things that tie up weekends. I have even let my hunting lease go so I can focus more on my own property as well as free up some weekend time to go to more shoots.
Life is busy and we have to choose what we spend time on. With younger folks with kids in ball, cheer and what not I can see why the choice isn't always a tournament.
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[attachment=1,msg2903713] demo for youth [attachment=2,msg2903713] and targets for them
[attachment=2,msg2903715] running rabbits and teaching the next generation [attachment=1,msg2903715]
I agree with most comments. I would recommend separating compound and trad shooters either on separate courses, alternating weekends, or different days. Stakes should be color coded for Men, Women and children. Compound shoot black, and any of the lesser distances. Trad shooters Red, Green and White. If a man wants to shoot closer, fine. People that start on white should stay on white, etc. because the course is usually a challenge for most, as skill levels vary. A handicap system works for golf and might work here too.
I use to shoot the North American Longbow Safari. Their courses are usually tough, not all, but most. There were usually a couple different stakes. There were many lost arrows in groups I shot with, including my own. Too many targets were at long distances, over water, in water, trees, down steep hillsides, or up. Targets in brush and behind trees, generally took their toll on arrows. I remember a cougar on a rock wall, it looked like 90% the arrows shot there were still on the ground, broken. Another was a steel bear at about 35 - 40 yds with a hole the size of an apple. Unless you missed your arrow didn't survive. I thought people really enjoyed the running deer, and aerial targets as much or more than most of the course. I am sure most got the arrows back after they were picked up.
If you want to increase attendance, it has to fun for all and not a survival course.