I am curious if any of you guys have a similar experience to mine.
I have a scenario right now where the orientation of my broad head (simmons tree shark) effects the impact point of my arrow.
If it's vertical, it's dead nuts middle.
If I have the broad head is horizontal, it'll impact lower than my field tips, but still in line with my desired POI.
I am assuming that there is a nocking point issue, but it is very easily fixed with the broad heads vertical orientation.
Just curious if anyone else has experienced anything like this.
I would think it's more a matter of the eye seeing the wider profile of it horizontal where as when vertical it all but disappears except for seeing the point (tip).
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Yep. You can imagine that if the nocking point is off, that head will catch wind and begin to plane in a vertical direction. I had the opposite problem with thentreesharks. Flew great when horizontally oriented, but not vertically vertically when I was getting shelf contact causing lateral planing. Spine issues would cause the same lateral planing.
What GCook said.
If you have helical fletching it shouldn't matter what the angle of the head is.
I never worried about the orientation of the head. I spin an arrow on my finger tip to feel if it wobbles and reset it so it doesn't wobble and the head is a bit different on each arrow. The arrow spins when shot so it goes through all orientations as it flies to the target.
Well, I think it shows tuning/nock height issues. If those are in order you may not have problems. Otherwise, I promise that it can make an issue that you wouldn't notice with a different head. Shelf contact causing the biggest problem.
My Bear Takedown did that. I raised my nock point about 1/8" and all was good. :thumbsup:
From my experiences, if broadhead orientation is effecting POI, then there is a tuning issue that needs to be figured out.
Bisch
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Agree with most of the posts above. At the relatively slow speeds we shoot - coupled with helical Fletch - broadhead planing shouldn't be an issue if everything is properly tuned. I too shoot Tree Sharks out of multiple set ups.
Now I do orient my broadheads in a specific manner, but it's 100% due to my "sight picture."
I'm not saying you aren't getting some planing effect as described, rather I'm saying that I agree with your assumption that there is a minor tweak in tune needed.
As long as the point is aligned well, it has never made a difference for me.
Back when I shot a Compound I would set my Buzzcuts vertically because they did impact low but now I shoot my Grizzly set 1 and 7 fly prefect. I have also did some testing and they fly just as good horizontal.
Definitely made a difference in my compound days, but with stickbow I haven't noticed a difference. Agree tuning or maybe borderline on arrow stiffness.
Are you changing the broadhead position by rotating the nock? Ratating the nock on a carbon arrow can have a significant effect on arrow tune. I have measured up to 17# of deflection change by rotating the nock 90 degrees.
Vented heads do not plane....
Orientated on any head should not matter unless you have a tuning issue or a terrible release....
Quote from: bigbadjon on October 10, 2019, 11:47:55 AM
Are you changing the broadhead position by rotating the nock? Ratating the nock on a carbon arrow can have a significant effect on arrow tune. I have measured up to 17# of deflection change by rotating the nock 90 degrees.
Correct.... That's why I always use radial wrapped carbons.... That process completely eliminates That issue....
Many years ago I remember hearing that you should always lay them flat. The logic was that, with good tuning you can get rid of porpoising but you can't get rid of archers paradox, so by laying your broadhead flat it was less likely to catch air and veer off to the left or right. I'm not sure if that is true or not, I never really tested it but it made sense to me so I've been laying them flat for 30+ years and haven't had any issues.
I would guess that with carbon arrows and near center shot bows, there is far less archers paradox so it wouldn't matter much.
I have seen exceptions to the expectations when combined with other influences. i shot a wide solid head for three years straight out of a Super K, I had them vertically mounted on 2018s, all equal weight points matched target, field, blunt and the broad head, in a variety of modest conditions they flew perfect. One day hunting near a steep bluff with a high gusty quartering wind coming in from behind me to the right, a nice buck came in range. I have never seen a head side step that bad ever before. It must have have caught a swirling gust. I missed the deer. A bit confused I test shot a Hill head of the same weight it flew perfect, shot another wide head it caught something in wind and side stepped something like the shot at the deer. There is a limit, aerodynamically, as to how much one arrow can be influenced over another in obverse conditions. Funky flight in good conditions, a tuning issue. Funky flight in bad conditions, hard to predict. The 35 to 45 mph gusts we have been having here the past few days, even the best tuned set ups would be hard to predict, some days are simply not arrow shooting days.
Quote from: Terry Green on October 10, 2019, 01:33:48 PM
Quote from: bigbadjon on October 10, 2019, 11:47:55 AM
Are you changing the broadhead position by rotating the nock? Ratating the nock on a carbon arrow can have a significant effect on arrow tune. I have measured up to 17# of deflection change by rotating the nock 90 degrees.
Correct.... That's why I always use radial wrapped carbons.... That process completely eliminates That issue....
Same here Terry. I had never considered it then I read an article by Rick Mckinney. Then I bought a spine tester and was shocked at the variance. I bring it up because most arrows are not woven construction and it does not seem to be common knowledge.
Back in the 60s and early 70s the same was true with fiberglass arrows. We use to say orientate the cock feather to the stiff side. One way to check was to hold the shaft flat on a table and bend it up, rotate a bit and bend again until you could feel the soft and strong sides. A spine tester is much more accurate, especially when you double or triple the weight on the spine tester. That of course, will not show you accurate spine, but it will show the deviation much easier.
Interesting comment about rotating the nock can change the spine on carbon arrows. I did not know that. So do you spine all your carbon with the nock set, rotate nock it in small increments to find consistent spine and then start fletching?
Yes. You don't need a spine tester to do it, altough it saves much time. Just roll the shafts as decribed earlier to find the stiff spot. From there you can shoot an arrow and rotate the nock a little at the time until it comes into tune.
Or you can do like Terry said and buy Easton, PSE, Carbon Tech, or other woven construction arrows and have little variance around the shaft. A spine tester pays here as well though because in a dozen arrows some are going to be more perfectly matched than others.
Also the worst arrow I ever tested for variance was a Carbon Express, I believe the model was called a Terminator. CX has allegedly put out arrows with 360 degree spine matching but I have not tested the new ones.
Quote from: DanielB89 on October 09, 2019, 02:29:47 PM
I am curious if any of you guys have a similar experience to mine.
I have a scenario right now where the orientation of my broad head (simmons tree shark) effects the impact point of my arrow.
If it's vertical, it's dead nuts middle.
If I have the broad head is horizontal, it'll impact lower than my field tips, but still in line with my desired POI.
I am assuming that there is a nocking point issue, but it is very easily fixed with the broad heads vertical orientation.
Just curious if anyone else has experienced anything like this.
see Ken Becks arrow tuning video - he briefly touches on the bh orientation aspect but i feel its true!
Arrow spine is one thing, broadhead alignment is another..... If your set up is tuned correctly broadhead alignment should be immaterial please understand this. Your issue is not broadhead alignment related period!
My experience with various carbons is limited, but it seems to me that certain types of carbons are very touchy with ASLs. I had a friend that had flight issues. Getting back from the target things really showed up. Checking his spines, they were all over the scale. He paid no attention to strong or weak side when making his arrows and his arrows were a mixture of old shafts from three different brands to new shafts. Also, one companies 500, as an example, when checking deflection around the shaft, does not spine the same as another from strong to weak sides. I explained that he should reflectch the whole works and check every shaft for spine when doing so. He gave up and went to wood, "At least I can see the strong side with those." A good spine test is more important with linear carbons than people realize. With the set of Alaskan tapered carbons that I am using, out of one bow. i tested them by simply doing the bending. After i got my spine tester, I went back and checked them 8 were right on the nose for the stiff side, 4 were not and needed to be refletched. Those four had broad heads on them, and if were to make an assumption and did not test shoot them, i could have been up for a disappointing surprise when shooting at a deer with them.
I wanted to give everyone an update. As stated, my problem was most definitely nocking height. I lowered it just a smidge and everythign straightened out and is now hitting exactly where they're supposed to when I do what i'm supposed to! haha.