Just wondering what peoples thoughts were on if it is better to have a complete pass through on an animal or to have your arrow stay inside and have it run with the arrow in the vitals? I'm curious because I shot a mule deer this year through both lungs complete pass through and it still went 300 to 400 yards.You see videos where an animal is shot and the arrow stays inside the animal and it only goes 30 to 40 yrds and dies.How much poundage does a guy really need?
Dunno but I prefer a pass through instead of the alternative. 2 holes bleeding makes recorvey much easier imho. I do believe they'll go down just as fast in most instances. Just my opinion. There are things happening in penetration more then bow or arrow weight! Much has been written on it. My worrys if i try to set up a bow to leave an arrow inside of say a caribou sized animal, what's that leave me for moose? 4 to 6" p enetrating bow? Just doesnt make sense to me, course not much does ;)
What you see in the videos is not what really happens most times. Just cause they say it went 30 or 40 yards does not mean that is the case. Just like they say " I made a good shot" and you can clearly see that it was not a good shot.
I want a pass through for the same reason AkDan does. Only animal I ever shot without a pass through was a Bison and that was my fault, not my set up. I hit him in the elbow socket, still got the heart and he only went about 20 yards. That Ace 200 gr Express is an awesome head, still sharp when I got it out of the innards, big slice through the heart. I want my arrows around 800 grains in weight.
Danny
I like to see a complete pass through.
It's not about how much blood you let out,it's about how much day light you let in.
Yet at the same time I've seen some pretty fast an devastating kills from quartering shots that didn't even get out the other side at all,one that chopped up the liver,lungs and heart,and the animal only went about 10 yards from the hit.
It sure made for some gory field dressing.
I very much agree with what's been said about on screen kills too.Some of them are obviously not what their claimed to be.
Heck,some are that bad their embarrassing to watch,so I wouldn't put much on them.
It's my belief after being involved in over 1000 whitetail kills here in Georgia(I formed an urban deer hunting group) that if you leave the arrow in a deer they can 'see' the arrow sticking out of their side and it PANICS then bigtime.
Wouldn't you be the same way? Remember, a deer's eyes are on the side of its head, and they can see nearly all the way, if not completely all the way down their backsides without turning their heads and so getting a pass through in my opinion makes for a better scenario from just that perspective, not to mention you have two holes for a blood trail to exit from.
On top of that, if you are in a treestand without an exit wound, you could have a deer run for hundreds of yards BEFORE the first drop of blood hits the ground. Typically your entrance wound would be high, so the body cavity has to fill with blood first, before any comes out the hole...you would likely lose some animals that way.
Complete Pass Through...all the way, no ifs, ands, or buts.
But I will take a quartering away shot that might stick in the off shoulder.
I have found in my own experiences, that those that were hit in the off shoulder ran twice as far as those that I blew through broadside. I figure the reason is that they absolutely knew they'd been hit. I did however hear every one of them crash on the run.
I like two holes just because it makes trailing easier if needed.I do like to shoot big broadheads however so sometimes that might not happen but I would rather put a 2" wide broadhead in there chest than have a small head pop out the other side.Of course I strive to put the big one through both sides all the time. :)
I prefer a pass through. The last deeer I shot hit the far shoulder and I found exactly two drops of blood. The good thing is it only went 30 yards.
Dennis
I vote for the complete pass through also. More blood to follow IMHO. Also like the fact that my arrow is lying there and not broken so it can be washed and reused.
Based on the physiology of deer and thier inner workings, it is best to have a pass through shot. You want as much blood to leave the body as possible. Believe it or not, when blood remains in the body, the animal can go longer before it's demise..
Except for spine shots, almost every one of the pass throughs that I have done or seen have been easier recoveries. Results differ but that has been my experience.
Yeah what Terry Green said...
I'll take a pass thru anyday....
Most,actually all but one,deer that I've taken with a pass thru have gone less than 45 yards.The only one that wasn't a pass thru was a spine shot,dropped in his tracks.
Better blood trail to follow,quicker bleed out.
Compleat pass though all the way, usally a better blood trail, and the animal goes down quicker. At least that is what I have found. :archer:
Don't HAVE to have a pass through, but really like it when it happens.
Agree with Terry! The flagging arrow makes em run... big time.
Hey guys! I've never taken an animal with a Traditional bow, But our small group of archery hunters have taken 34 elk in the last 16 years, and God knows how many deer....the deer are like rabbits to us out here in Oregon. I can offer opinions on just about every kind of shot senario imaginable, and the two hole theory of a pass though is good if the shot is low or angled down like from a tree stand. Most of our group are stalkers, so we are usually dealling with either up hill, down hill, or on the flat shots. Pass though shots are common with compound bows IF, and i say "IF" the shot placement and angle is right.The angle of your arrow is the most important part. Think of shooting a plastic barrel full of water....The closer you shoot to the bottom of the barrel, the more water is going to leak out....I know this doesn't take into account the vitals, but when you get a hole in the botton of a critter, they leak more....PERIOD. I've seen many text book high lung broadside pass thoughs on level ground that never resulted in a harvest due to no blood trail at all....Take that same shot and lower it 4" on a deer, or 8" on an elk, and it looks like someone used a spray gun with red paint though the woods, pass though or not.....So my experience is this: From a tree stand or a steep down hill shot: Pass though is best. Up hill shots are nice!. You get a hole in the bottom, pass through or not.... When sooting on level ground hitting high is bad, pass though or not.A mid body shot i would almost prefer that arrow to stay in the animal. 9 times out of ten they break that arrow off and leak just as good as a pass through. I like a quartering away shot the best. a low shot for the heart ends in the arrow usually through the liver & lung , and into the inside of the rib cage or shoulder on the other side. If you get the heart...10 to twenty yards and they are down. Even without a pass through they don't run far at all.
Bottom line is shot placement, and angle of entry. Poke a hole in the bottom.....They leak more.....I'd rather shoot a lower heart shot and miss completely than get a high double lung pass through.....Been there.... done that....lost some nice critters that way..... Shoot for the heart guys and you'll harvest more critters.
My experience with this situation (from a tree stand) is that if the arrow stays in there will be blood. As soon a the arrow comes out or is pulled out the blood stops. I think it is because the arrow still being in the animal keeps the wound open and the blood can flow out of it but the skin covers the wound when the arrow is removed. I prefer the pass thru...almost never stops leaving blood. I have vowed because of an incident with a a very large deer I lost this year (because I did not get a pass thru and lost the blood trail) that I will no longer take shots that do not give me a high percentage of getting a pass thru.
Just like on TV, we often think hits are better than they are, particularly on those animals that got away. A long trail on a "double lunged" animal just might not have been double lunged to begin with. Any animal shot through the lungs with a sharp arrow yielding a complete pass through isn't going to go far and won't be very difficult to track.
I caught a show yesterday on the Outdoor Channel, Whitewater Trail I believe, that went over this topic. The host of the show first started talking about arrows. He stated you can hardly find any wooden arrows anymore, and went on about carbon and aluminum. This brought up the first red flag. He then went on to say that he prefered an arrow to only go into a animal only half way. That way when the animal ran through the woods, the broadhead would tear up as much of the vitals as possible, and have a short recovery. He also stated that an animal that had a pass through would run about 300 to 400 yards, if it stopped at all. I just can't believe some of the shows that are on, and the inaccurate info they are giving out. Almost all of my shots on deer are pass throughs, and they hardly ever go more than 75-80 yards.
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May Your Arrow Drink of the Whitetail!
Pass-through potential is the better alternative.
1. To create the potential within your arrow-bow as best you can gives you some wiggle room regarding poor range estimation and not quite hitting your intended point of aim.
2. Arrow that remains within the animal serves as a "stopper" for the wound; it will bleed less than a clear wound.
I prefer a pass thru any time. You really can't judge the advantages vs disadvantages based on a single kill. I shot a doe once that I have a picture of me holding it's heart with a perfect "X" through the middle from my broadhead. I hit the animal at 7:45 A.M. Waited 2 hrs. and heard it drop at 2:30 P.M. after going up and down a mountain 3 times bleeding the whole way. I have shot many more that went down in sight.
The only animal I don't want complete pass-through on is a turkey. I don't mind keeping the arrow in them. Lot less chance of a fly off then and seems to stun them more.
Yeah.....what Orion said. Every TRUE double lung with a SHARP Bhead I've experienced never went very far, and most times not even out of site.
Not saying that it never would happen, but I'd have to actually SEE it to believe a deer going 300 yards that was a TRUE double lung shot with a SHARP Bhead.
A double lung, or even one lung should give you a fine spray of a blood trail fromt the animal breathing. Sure it may be hard to see at times, but there will be a blood trail. A double lung will put a deer down quick. Some have mentioned what sounds to me the exception in a few cases as far as distances travled by a lunged deer. I used to think a heart shot was best. Until the day I shot a huge buck through the heart. I could see the blood spraying like an open fire hydrant. The blood trail was a foot and a half wide for a long way till no blood was left. That deer still managed to swimm across a river and go about 80 yards beyond that. I would say that is an exception, but it happens. All in all, you want to put in as much vital as you can to take you prize home. Also, never give up on a tracking job until there is absolutely nothing left to be done. I have made recoveries the next day after hours of tracking the day before.
Thanks for your opinioms guys.I do love a pass through as well.It was my 2nd deer ever taken and the blood trail was good(a blind man could find it).But it still covered a fairly good distance after the shot.It just made me think that if the arrow would have stayed in would it have done more damage and gone down faster.It was definetly still very easy to recover(5 min from camp).I've sen bears go with arrows in them that went just as far.Just one of those things that makes you want to hear from someone else.
The "it's good that the arrow is still in him, it'll keep cutting" scenario is what guys say to each other to make themselves feel better about a weak blood trail.
This is one of those endlessly debated topics which will never be really resolved because there are just too many variables from shot to shot. However, the one thing that can be said is that what happens BETWEEN the entry and exit wounds is far more important than the wounds themselves, or how many there are. If the arrow hits vital structures, the animal dies quickly,period.
a deer should expire within 8 seconds of a good double lung hit. its just a matterof how much ground they cover in 8 seconds. if that same deer has an arrow hanging out of its side it will be frightened and pour on the steam. my experience with pass throughs is they are not near as scared.2 years ago i got a pass through on one and it just flinched a little, took three steps, looked around, and fell over dead.
Yup, what Terry said. I also have doubts of a double lunged animal going 300-400 yards. I f ya center punch both lungs it is a scientific fact a deer will go no more than 200 yards and that would be a long long ways. I have double lunged at least 50 deer over my years and none has gone more than 80 yards. Shawn
I'll take a double lung over a straight heart shot every time. This doe ran about 100 yards wiht a straight heart shot, and I've never had a double lung go more than 80 yards, and that one 80 yarder was quartering away and I jabbed the off leg.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/txheart.jpg)
The one's I've double lunged and the off shoulder wasn't hit never went past 40 yards, one spike only made it a mere 8 yards....and I've had a few just make a couple of bounds and stop to figure out what happened, started staggering and fell over not even knowing that they were hit.
I had a 32-34 yard recovery rate for YEARS with the Zwickey Delta 4 blade...then I had to blow that average with a liver shot TX buck this year :mad:
So, its pretty much resolved for me as to what I want, no need in debating from my perspective.
I have no doubts about a double lung hit going 200 to 300 yards.
I from experience think that if you get a double lung shot the deer will drop at about 60 yards; and bears - where shot placement is I think a better probability because of time to set up shots over a bait...will go from 40 to 60 on a double lung shot.
I base that on seeing statistics; and seeing for myself guiding bear hunts and helping trail other peoples animals; my own kills; blood trail competitions online... etc etc.
So- why do I say that 200 to 300 yards is totally believable? Because SO MANY people are shooting arrows with broadheads that are not sharp.
BROADHEADS NEED TO BE SHARPENED AFTER EACH SHOT; AND AFTER BEING IN THE QUIVER FOR A WHILE.
That is a rule of thumb for experts; some will disagree - and they most probably are putting a water-proofer on their broadheads- but taking arrows out and walking with them on the bow; and dragging the broadhead through weeds and brush- dulls them.
So does shooting them into a foam target!!!@!!
I have seen many times when a dull broadhead created a long blood trail (In 35 years of following blood trails). I have found dead deer in a controlled hunt - where I gutted the deer carefully and then backtracked it- sometimes to the shooter; sometimes to the shooters tracks where he gave up- and I was lucky enough to have found those guys...
And if it was a double lung shot that went a long way- every single time the person says he had shot the arrow and knew it was flying OK; and yet did NOT re-sharpen the head.
That is why I really get vocal about it. Broadheads kill by cutting. Yep you hit in the spine and you can kill them; or in the head.
But if you shoot an animal with a dull head- and that means its not shaving sharp- your probably going to face a long blood trail.
I have shot deer that kicked their back legs and started feeding again and dropped over. I shot one through the heart that was chasing a hot doe and it kept following the doe and jumped on - then fell over dead.
Deer get wounded by branches and antlers and fences and all kinds of things - and they always run off when in danger and then everything is ok.
A sharp head will get their attention; they run a distance; stop; look back and will most often die right there unless they see or smell or hear you.
But with a dull head; its more of an punch than a shaving cut; and they will run accordingly.
Having the arrow stick out can not only scare them into running further- it can hit trees etc; and the added shock will keep them going faster.
A pass throuh is the best thing- and no its a lie to say the arrow should ideally go in part way and then work around and cut up the deer more- that is just a blackeye to bowhunting.
Shooting a sharp head causes less pain ( I have talked to people shot with bows in the chest- they were frightened because they knew what the situation was- but pain was minimal- now of course a shot in the bone- will instantly bring more pain).
I am not out bowhunting to make animals hurt. I am out there to kill them in a quick humane way- and a sharp broadhead on a well placed arrow does that.
To say or think that the arrow works best by going in a short way and then working around is the statement of a person that is not familiar with how an arrow works- and it is a black eye to bowhunting
SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!! :campfire: :archer:
Excellent reply Brian, I agree 100 percent with you on that one :thumbsup:
Daniel
Only had two the stayed in the critter. Once in 1977 and again in 2004. I have to agree two holes are better than one.
Although I agree about the sharpness of heads, a double lung complete pass thru with a dull hoe, takes the air out and no they will not go 200-300 yards, one in a hundred maybe, but it is very rare. Shawn
Although I agree about the sharpness of heads, a double lung complete pass thru with a dull hoe, takes the air out and no they will not go 200-300 yards, one in a hundred maybe, but it is very rare. Shawn
I heart shot is great but I'd rather shoot double lungs. Less chance of flirting with larger bones. I'd prefer a pass through for blood tracking purposes, but punching through through ensures the same wound channel and usually and short recovery. My longest traditional recovery was a non pass-through hog that went 140 yards, most deer I have shot made it no more than 70 yards.
if you heart shoot an animal its still breathing...a deer that is still breathing can go a long way.
A hole through both sides, and the lungs in between produces a pneumothorax- a negative pressure in the chest cavity- the lungs cannot be filled with oxygen- the brain gets oxygen starved- and the animal passes out - often you recover a deer and say " he died running"- that is what you see when the deer passes out- its in mid stride.
There is no debate- lungs punched with a pencil will kill any animal more quickly than a heart shot with the world's sharpest broadhead- every single time.
Ray, that's ACUTE pneumothoax.
NOTHING runs 300 yards if it's double lunged.
you got that right, Bigster!! :bigsmyl:
See, I was so sure I said it 3 times! Shawn
I totally agree with Terry, Biggie,Shawn and Ray......
... and will have to disagree with Jerry J.....I have personally never seen a "one lung" shot deer that bled out it's nose/mouth...maybe so,but after a lot of personal experience...I've never seen it....I've got pix to prove it in my case.
I believe the double lung more holes crowd has this discussion.
It is acute double pneumothorax more precisely! Inhalation is relatively low pressure; exhalation requires more pressure (ever hear an asthmatic wheeze, which is due to reduced bronchial space and thus more pressure, when he exhales?) and holes in both lungs and the chest cavity do not accommodate this high pressure happening whatsoever. CO2 build up and percentage of O2 decreases and, wow, I'm feeling woozy and I'll just fade outtt right about here...
Of course, this is combined with the massive hemorrhage as the lung tissue has a relatively large volume of blood due to the large surface area of the capillaries within said lung tissue. This massive hemorrhage and increase in CO2/loss of 02 is what brings about a relatively efficient death. This can ONLY be created by both lungs and the chest cavity being punctured.
Keep 'em sharp,
DD
Thanks for the input.I have no reason to lie about my deer running 300 yards so for those guys that are doubting me,well that's your opinion and I'm the one that packed him out.My broadheads were sharp enough to shave with so tha puts that out too.As for hunting bears over bait that's against the law in BC and personally think it's wrong anyway.I posted to see what the opinions were not for people to doubt me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
NOTHING runs 300 yards if it's double lunged.
Sorry, but I've got to disagree.
Several years ago I had a doe ten yards from me, as wired a deer as I've ever seen...snorting, stomping and bouncing around. I put a 3-blade head through the rear lobe of her near lung and out the center of the other one. She went 350 yards before going down.
I swore I'd only gotten one lung until I field dressed her and examined the organs. Both lungs...nice 3-blade cuts. I had to check, recheck and re-recheck the recovery distance with a GPS to believe it was really 350 yards. As far as sharp heads, I can leave a bald strip on my arm with one pass so I'm not sure how much sharper they can get.
Now I'm not saying recovery distances like that are even remotely normal for double lung shots. The next closest I've had was about 120, and I think that's the only other one to go over 100.
Lesson of the day: don't shoot wired deer.
Nah Jason, you cut the other lung with your knife when doing the autopsy.
:-)
In 20+ years of hunting I don't recall ever having a double lunged deer mak it past 50 yards and under 40 was the norm. I think most of the 300 yard runs are due to single lung hits because folks are too high in the trees.
thats what I was thinkin', Biggie...I bet Jason has one of those three edge knives...isn't that called a Ginsu????? :bigsmyl: :biglaugh:
There are always going to be anomole in everything. Animals are in this one respect, like folks- some have a tremendously strong will to live. Some are naturally wired tighter than others. Some give it up quick...all things being equal.
I've seen a thousand whitetail kills..and I've never seen a double lunged deer travel that far.
I do NOT doubt though, it happened..I've seen too many freaky things in the woods to disbelieve nearly anything. That was one tough deer with high oxygen content blood I tell you!!!! Maybe she was a marathoner or a Navy Seal deer.
Most of you have shot many more deer with a bow than I have. I don't want to turn this into a "DEER NOT RECOVERED THREAD" but from my limited experience--Passthrough = recovered deer and No pass through= crapshoot. Ask yourself of any/all game you never found; how many were passthroughs and how many were not.
I don't mean to doubt anyone here, but I have to side with the pass trough crowd. I have a couple of ideas about the "hunting show" kills. Most are shot with compounds (that's fine if you like them) using lightweight arrows at extended range for a bow IMHO, often with mechanical broadheads. The combination of light arrow weight, distance, and mechanical heads limit penetration. That often leaves arrows sticking out of deer. I agree that the arrow flagging scares them into running farther. Couple that with the sound most compounds emit and the deer are bound to spook and run farther than one would like.
Quietly slip a sharp broadhead through both lungs, follow a short blood trail, and enjoy fresh backstraps. :thumbsup:
I am thoroughly convinced that a deer with an arrow flagging as he runs will panic and run MUCH harder/farther. Even if he just gains 5 seconds more of life from the adrenilin (sp) rush, how far can a deer run in 5 seconds at top speed?
A pass through is optimal, every time, in my humble opinion.