I'm curious what your opinions are on the capabilities of a 50# longbow on all of North Americans big game animals. Does it have enough "juice" to ethically take down even the largest moose or bison?
With the right arrow and broadhead, absolutely.
YEP...... :thumbsup: Sharp broadhead, good shot placement = dead critter !!!!!
All of them ? not in my opinion. The perfectly executed shot is often not perfect. In a "perfect" world it might be... We don't live in a perfect world. Moose, big bears with 50# ? Good luck !
If that is all I could draw and I had the right shot then I'd use it. But if I go moose hunting it won't be with my 50lb trad bow. (Well 51) because I have options and I don't think that is the best one available to me.
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It can be, but might not be. How is that for vague?
I know of a particular hog that it probably wouldn't have been enough on unless you had a long draw length, but that is the exception to the rule. 50# at my draw length, just under 30, and I wouldn't hesitate
, but I probably won't chose that option very often until I have to drop down in weight.
A Howard hill LB will shoot a 10 gpp (500 gr) at 28" arrow in the 160-165 fps. A centaur triple carbon, the same 10 gpp @ 28" arrow in the 185-190 fps.
Both are " longbows"
Yes!
Any doubts listen to Marvin Clyncke on the podcasts. He has also contributed in several TBM issues. He's killed them all with a 50# longbow.
The first man who did the super slam with a recurve shot all his animals with a 54lb bow and 450 grain arrow so I would say absolutely yes. I really never understood the super heavy arrows I like my bow to shoot flat Ive killed all my deer with 52lb at draw bows and 420 grain arrows.
I agree with all of the above statements..
Will 50# get the job done? Yes.
Are all 50# bows created equal in terms of energy? No. If 50# is your threshold I would make sure that I had the most performance that I could get out of my equipment in terms of foot lbs of energy, and of course a super sharp broadhead. I too would be shooting a 3:1 single bevel broadhead on those critters, but that boils down to personal preference that can open a whole other can of worms.
On large critters like moose or bison, your shots are generally closer with a much larger kill zone. I would much rather shoot at much weight that I was comfortable with even if that means my groups grow a little due to the weight. Like others said, it is never a perfect world, and can't count on the 3"@20 groups that I shoot in my backyard in the field.
I agree that with a good shot and well tuned and very sharp arrows, 50# will do the job. However, if I were going after this game, I would go heavier. I would take my 65# Wesley Special.
the only thing i would add to the above is your arrow shaft material...im a woody shooter but have
come to realize that carbon shafts far out penetrate wood (my personal testing)
shot distance matters too
Tradbrew x 2
Then again, there are the times when a quartering away animal suddenly becomes a quartering toward animal. But I guess I am the only one this ever has happened to. This hog was shot at dusk last night.
[attachment=1,msg2872852]
No it I've had that occur.
Nice pig though. Congratulations!
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Quote from: pdk25 on June 19, 2019, 10:51:13 AM
Then again, there are the times when a quartering away animal suddenly becomes a quartering toward animal. But I guess I am the only one this ever has happened to. This hog was shot at dusk last night.
[attachment=1,msg2872852]
nice pig
what was your setup
TT Stickflinger, around 58#@29.5". Used a black eagle instinct shaft with 100 grain outsert and 200 grain vpa 3 blade. Angle not as bad as it looks. Pulverized the bone, so it was sitting in there pretty loose and is flipped over a bit.
I would want more pounds than that. Moose and elk are mighty big critters. Big hogs are mighty tough too.
One of the first hickory selfbows I ever built pulled about 55#@26". I had to aim a 27", 525-ish grain arrow in the trees to hit a target at fifty yards. Last week, I tillered out an Imperial (composite D/R longbow) with some carbon in the limbs that pulls 38#@31". With it, I only have to aim the full-length, 500 gr carbon arrow about 20" over to hit my target at fifty yards. Oh, and I shot the hickory stick split-finger and the Imperial 3-under! Which would you say would be more lethal?
Draw weight is a very poor measure of performance. Draw length, bow design, shooter input, and about a hundred other details come into play. I would feel more comfortable hunting local whitetail with this little composite bow, and would never suggest that 55# hickory bow would be enough for anything bigger than a groundhog, let alone moose. However, I've seen some modern carbon-limb recurves at 50-55# that put out as much power as some of my early 70# straight limb composite bows, and those things had some thump to them. Some of Clay Haye's videos have high-performance selfbows that are faster than some composite bows. Hard to really compare lethality based on draw weight without the other details included.
My 50# Bear TD flings a 485gr arrow right at 194fps. I can't think of any animal I wouldn't shoot at with that.
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Here's a link to a topic that was on-TRADGANG. 45# harvest pics. Bears and moose..
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=101178.msg1900517#msg1900517
The idea that you have to have higher # is just kind of antiquated. Better limb designs, better materials, more efficient arrows...20 years ago, it would probably take a 60-70# bow to match my 50#.
My buddy shoots a 45# Black Widow and has harvested an elk pretty much every year for the last three decades.
My metric for "lethality" is the speed of a properly weighted arrow with a sharp cut on contact broadhead. If it shoots my arrow at the right speed, I don't care what the draw weight is.
Quote from: Maddog20/20 on June 19, 2019, 03:38:15 PM
My 50# Bear TD flings a 485gr arrow right at 194fps. I can't think of any animal I wouldn't shoot at with that.
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So I am guessing that you draw longer than 28". What is your draw length, and the poundage at that draw?
Around 29." The bow is 50#, but that's at 28" so I'm probably drawing more like 55#? Maybe?
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Probably 53lbs.
Were the elk killed in the wild or on exotic ranches? Because free range mountain elk have a success rate by archers of 11%.
Not that I care. I'd shoot one on a Texas ranch for the fun and delicious meat myself.
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Quote from: GCook on June 19, 2019, 07:54:43 PM
Probably 53lbs.
Were the elk killed in the wild or on exotic ranches? Because free range mountain elk have a success rate by archers of 11%.
Not that I care. I'd shoot one on a Texas ranch for the fun and delicious meat myself.
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Wild in Chama, NM. I'm sure it's not 100%, I just can't remember him ever not bagging one.
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Private land and land he knows well would give him an advantage most don't have.
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Ask Fred Eichler
Last I checked, he shot 54#@31", and went up to 59# for griz. Not that it matters. 50# is usually a fine weight.
Don't quote me on this, but I am pretty sure Jerry Russell shoots a 50# Black Widow, and has killed lots of different large animals with it. Pretty sure his draw isn't far off of 28". Maybe he will chime in after Bear Camp.
Quote from: HartHeart on June 18, 2019, 09:24:58 PM
I'm curious what your opinions are on the capabilities of a 50# longbow on all of North Americans big game animals. Does it have enough "juice" to ethically take down even the largest moose or bison?
The original poster to start this thread has asked a simple question that requires a highly complex answer. More specifics are needed in his question to render a proper answer. A 50# home-made self bow differs substantially from a (insert professional bowyer's name here) in a reflex/deflex sophisticated design or even that of the ILF designs. The modern designs simply render more efficient use of the energy stored within the machine (bow).
This original question is a question that has been beaten to death many times :deadhorse:. Obviously doing the research from prior threads on Tradgang should have answered his question in the affirmative.
In addition to the type of 50# long bow arrow build and proper tuning will play a substantial factor in this equation, as will choice of broadhead design. Much of his answer can be found in reading the extensive Ashby research posted in the Topic Archives on the Trad Gang forum.
With respect to the animals cited, Moose are not a particularly difficult animal to penetrate in that they are not built with any armor like that of Cape Buffalo. We have several TradGangsters from Alaska whom have reported in threads on their successes in harvesting Moose with lighter bows. Bison have been killed for thousands of years by native Americans using stone points and typically using 40 to 50 lb. self made bows. These bows would not hold the degree of sophistication that our modern bowyers employ daily to produce far more efficient machines than those used by our Native American brethren. As for dangerous game like the large coastal bears they too hold no outstanding armor in the vulnerable rib areas. Their armor tends to be in the cranial cavity. I know of no knowledgeable hunter whom would intentionally shoot for the head of a coastal bear. The most difficult North American animal to penetrate may well be the large mature boar hogs with the grizzle armor in their shoulders. Using proper shot placement, arrow build & tuning, combined with broadhead selection has been proven to harvest even these "American Rhinos".
Basically the most important component is not necessarily the use of a 50# Longbow to harvest the largest species of American big game but rather how much talent and knowledge of his/her equipment does the nut who's holding onto the 50# long bow possess. So....the short answer to the original poster's question is: Yes, so long as the nut holding onto the bow has done his/her part. :knothead:
Agree 100% with Kegan.
Well said Mr Orton
Thank you gentlemen for the replies. I feel like the main ingredient of any kill shot is the accuracy of it. 50# is at this point as much as I can honestly say "I'm in control of the bow", and therefore shoot accurately with it. When I try to pull more, it creates a tension subconsciously, "I can't hold this very long I've got to let this string go soon" and more often than not I rush the shot process. I guess the biggest thing that I'm struggling with now is my aiming method. I've always considered myself an instinctive archer, but I find myself still referencing the arrow tip at times and it creates a lot of mental confusion and frankly I haven't been improving much accuracy wise. That being said, I have had times when I can trust my subconscious mind and simply focus on a spot and my arrow almost magically appears there(or at least very close by). Those "zones" haven't really been consistent though, and it takes a lot of concentration. Maybe if I'd stick to one setup it would help:) Wow, what a bunny trail. Ok, my question is basically, would you choose a 50# setup for moose that you are confident with over a 60# setup that is pushing you mentally and physically?
Quote from: pdk25 on June 19, 2019, 10:51:13 AM
Then again, there are the times when a quartering away animal suddenly becomes a quartering toward animal. But I guess I am the only one this ever has happened to. This hog was shot at dusk last night.
[attachment=1,msg2872852]
Those Instincts are the real deal!
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"
..... Ok, my question is basically, would you choose a 50# setup for moose that you are confident with over a 60# setup that is pushing you mentally and physically?"
Clearly. There is no point hunting with a bow that you can't control
Quote from: HartHeart on June 20, 2019, 10:34:23 PM
Thank you gentlemen for the replies. I feel like the main ingredient of any kill shot is the accuracy of it. 50# is at this point as much as I can honestly say "I'm in control of the bow", and therefore shoot accurately with it. When I try to pull more, it creates a tension subconsciously, "I can't hold this very long I've got to let this string go soon" and more often than not I rush the shot process. I guess the biggest thing that I'm struggling with now is my aiming method. I've always considered myself an instinctive archer, but I find myself still referencing the arrow tip at times and it creates a lot of mental confusion and frankly I haven't been improving much accuracy wise. That being said, I have had times when I can trust my subconscious mind and simply focus on a spot and my arrow almost magically appears there(or at least very close by). Those "zones" haven't really been consistent though, and it takes a lot of concentration. Maybe if I'd stick to one setup it would help:) Wow, what a bunny trail. Ok, my question is basically, would you choose a 50# setup for moose that you are confident with over a 60# setup that is pushing you mentally and physically?
Suggest you youtube search the term "The Push" This is a lengthy well done production addressing exactly what is going on within your mind. I was once right with you brother....The Push helped me immensely.
Any more the performance range of longbows is wide. I see the same question posed a lot in regards to 40# bows for deer.
I have had a few swipes taken at me for my opinion that minimal is not the best option.
The best way to get a valid opinion is to post artow weight and speed so as to get a momentum value. Ask just the moose hunters. Especially with the issue of broadheads. Two blade penetrates better than 3, smaller better than large, etc.2
Regarding 50# vs 60# for moose, I'd offer this observation. The adrenalin is really pumping when you draw on a critter. I doubt you would notice the additional weight (when drawing on a critter). Too, a moose has a large kill zone, providing a little more margin for error.
I've only hunted moose twice and killed a nice bull the second time. I was shooting 66# at the time. That was a while ago. I can no longer handle 66#, not 60# either. However, should I have the opportunity to hunt moose again, I'd practice with a weight i can comfortably handle, then bump it up about 5# shortly before the hunt.
well said by mr orton!
i would like to offer a comparison between two bows- these are marked 52 @31 and 50 @28. they are drawn to 31(ish). the same arrow generates a speed of 185 fps with one and 205 with the second bow. clearly we have different techniques in construction playing up. now leaving aside the difference in poundage all we have left is ease of shooting and confidence in your own ability. a miss even with a 100 lb bow and a lodge pole will be a miss. targets do behave differently and even the shooter is prone to errors when relaxed, let alone when in a pressure scenario.
the nut holding the bow has to do the job, if you are consistent with the bow arrow combo you are good.
Quote from: acedoc on June 21, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
well said by mr orton!
i would like to offer a comparison between two bows- these are marked 52 @31 and 50 @28. they are drawn to 31(ish). the same arrow generates a speed of 185 fps with one and 205 with the second bow. clearly we have different techniques in construction playing up. now leaving aside the difference in poundage all we have left is ease of shooting and confidence in your own ability. a miss even with a 100 lb bow and a lodge pole will be a miss. targets do behave differently and even the shooter is prone to errors when relaxed, let alone when in a pressure scenario.
the nut holding the bow has to do the job, if you are consistent with the bow arrow combo you are good.
So, you're saying that all of the time I've invested into bare shaft tuning my lodge poles was a waste?
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Quote from: Maddog20/20 on June 21, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
Quote from: acedoc on June 21, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
well said by mr orton!
i would like to offer a comparison between two bows- these are marked 52 @31 and 50 @28. they are drawn to 31(ish). the same arrow generates a speed of 185 fps with one and 205 with the second bow. clearly we have different techniques in construction playing up. now leaving aside the difference in poundage all we have left is ease of shooting and confidence in your own ability. a miss even with a 100 lb bow and a lodge pole will be a miss. targets do behave differently and even the shooter is prone to errors when relaxed, let alone when in a pressure scenario.
the nut holding the bow has to do the job, if you are consistent with the bow arrow combo you are good.
So, you're saying that all of the time I've invested into bare shaft tuning my lodge poles was a waste?
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If you miss the shot , sure enough ! If you make it - then you are golden.
I built a 50# board bow that shoots slower than my 30# Samick Sage. That Samick is no speed demon -- my bowyer skills just need some improvement. I built a 40+ one last year that probably beats both (avatar picture). But a 25# compound could probably smoke them all.
As Kegan stated, draw weight is a very incomplete measure of potency. Go with arrow weight & speed. Draw weight is just a proxy for those measurements.
Quote from: YosemiteSam on June 26, 2019, 01:19:43 PM
As Kegan stated, draw weight is a very incomplete measure of potency. Go with arrow weight & speed. Draw weight is just a proxy for those measurements.
Now we're getting somewhere.
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An old study worth sharing again... and again...
http://tmuss.tripod.com/shotfrompast/bear.htm
Dr. Ed Ashby will tell you that an arrow's momentum is the key to lethality...You have 50% chance of hitting bone with any hunting shot. Expect the best outcome but prepare for the bad one.
The key is a heavy arrow... :coffee:
https://journalofmountainhunting.com/part-iv-the-physics-of-arrow-penetration-by-dr-ed-ashby/
I plan on hunting whitetails with a 51# recurve. I have a set of 46# limbs that I shoot most of the time but even on deer, I like a bit extra
I think many folks underestimate the force on an arrow from a bow because they spend the majority of their year shooting foam or bags. If you waste a few arrows on some less yielding objects in a "safe" manner I think you'll see just how powerful a 50# can be. And thats with just a field point. Now take a razorsharp broadhead and throw that in the mix. :archer2: :o. Also, not all bows of a given weight are created equal when it comes to stored energy. Some are dogs and some modern designs rival bows of yesteryear that are 5-10# heavier easily. I own several bows around 50 that with a 550-600 arrow I would use on any American critter with zero hesitation.
Quote from: nineworlds9 on June 28, 2019, 08:48:20 AM
I think many folks underestimate the force on an arrow from a bow because they spend the majority of their year shooting foam or bags. If you waste a few arrows on some less yielding objects in a "safe" manner I think you'll see just how powerful a 50# can be. And thats with just a field point. Now take a razorsharp broadhead and throw that in the mix. :archer2: :o. Also, not all bows of a given weight are created equal when it comes to stored energy. Some are dogs and some modern designs rival bows of yesteryear that are 5-10# heavier easily. I own several bows around 50 that with a 550-600 arrow I would use on any American critter with zero hesitation.
Agreed
I'm not sure why, knowing what we do about the physics of archery, why draw weight is even a point of discussion.
The reality is that what matters is that an arrow of a certain weight AND FOC needs to travel a certain speed to get the necessary penetration.
Even arrow design affects that flight and penetration. For example, I get better penetration with my Black Eagle Instincts than my Eastons out of the same bow because a big chunk of the mass is up front in the outsert and tip, so the impact isn't translated through the arrow as much and so it "carries" better.
Basically, the lethality is a function of mass and speed...which aren't necessarily a function of draw weight
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I don't totally agree. Some of the blindly accepted premises of Dr. Ashbey don't translate from paper to field in all circumstances. Or maybe there is much misinterpretation of his premise. There must be a balance of arrow weight, foc weight and speed of arrow to reach the maximum potential of any bow. You can't just blindly make a heavier arrow and more weight up front and expect it to magically shoot through any animal at any angle or point on the animal.
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I think having good flight and angle of impact is sort of assumed.
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I'm struggling not with this but it correlates. I'm shooting #50 @ 28" but I draw 31". I've killed deer and elk with bows of this weight without issue. I had early in my archery journey,bought in to the heavy FOC, along what Dr Ashby states. I am working with a new bow of the above mentioned weight and I want my arrow to be 9-10 gpp. I haven't got perfect arrow flight yet but I'm really close. I'm also learning to shoot a new short bow, BUT here's the correlation. My arrows are penetrating as well as the heavy/high FOC arrows. They hit the target flatter with a better impact angle. I have all the confidence in humanely taking elk and deer with this combo. I've no experience with moose. But this is the combo I'd take if I were leaving tomorrow. Thanks Guys
Quote from: GCook on June 28, 2019, 04:17:43 PM
I don't totally agree. Some of the blindly accepted premises of Dr. Ashbey don't translate from paper to field in all circumstances. Or maybe there is much misinterpretation of his premise. There must be a balance of arrow weight, foc weight and speed of arrow to reach the maximum potential of any bow. You can't just blindly make a heavier arrow and more weight up front and expect it to magically shoot through any animal at any angle or point on the animal.
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Yep. Plenty of real world examples to prove that.
A bow that's 50@28 drawn to 31 is more like 59 orb60 at that draw length so it isn't comparing apples to apples.
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Quote from: wapitishooter on June 19, 2019, 08:23:59 AM
The first man who did the super slam with a recurve shot all his animals with a 54lb bow and 450 grain arrow so I would say absolutely yes. I really never understood the super heavy arrows I like my bow to shoot flat Ive killed all my deer with 52lb at draw bows and 420 grain arrows.
Was that for every animal taken? That's interesting, thanks for sharing!
You are referring to Fred Eichler I assume, and he was using a Palmer recurve that was 54#, but at a whopping 31" drawlength. Almost certainly as much performance as a comparable bow drawn in the low to mid 60's at 28". The first person to actually complete the super slam with a recurve was Rick Duggan, from Colorado, but I don't know what setup he used.
Ok, so let's twist this a little. Let's say you're using an average of 10gpp arrow, what's an appropriate speed?
Really draw weight is merely a means to achieve launching an appropriate arrow at a speed necessary to penetrate, so isn't a better metric how fast an arrow flies?
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Due to old age and medical restrictions I am limited to no more the 50# for the rest of my life. I hunt moose most every year with one of our 19" ultra lite risers and 51# on my fingers at my 30 1/2" draw. With a 560 gr arrow I'm about 200 fps.
I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a moose with it yet, but John shot one a few years ago with complete penetration. Would have blown through if he hadn't clipped the shoulder on the far side. Two blade Tuffheads did the job very nicely.
Mike
Quote from: wingnut on July 02, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Due to old age and medical restrictions I am limited to no more the 50# for the rest of my life. I hunt moose most every year with one of our 19" ultra lite risers and 51# on my fingers at my 30 1/2" draw. With a 560 gr arrow I'm about 200 fps.
I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a moose with it yet, but John shot one a few years ago with complete penetration. Would have blown through if he hadn't clipped the shoulder on the far side. Two blade Tuffheads did the job very nicely.
Mike
I can't imagine a 560gr arrow traveling 200fps with a good broad head not taking down anything in North America.
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I would say that a 55 pound bow would be the perfect weight bow for the average shooter on larger big game animals but....
I shoot a 50 pound black widow that is 22 years old. I have taken 20 species with it and many were very large critters such as wildebeest, gemsbok etc. I do shoot heavy arrows with two blade lower profile heads like stingers on the really big stuff. I have taken several eland with this setup with the largest one over 2,000 pounds. I got a pass through on my last eland and none of them has traveled over 50 yards.
I am not an advocate of low poundage bows but 50 pounds is what I can handle accurately an it is just enough bow on larger animals.
45-50 pound bows with TUFFHEAD tipped arrows kill lots of big animals every year for the last decade!
It's all about efficiency of bow, arrow set up is tuned, 3:1 sharp broadhead and most importantly, confidence! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jerry Russell on July 11, 2019, 09:09:27 PM
I would say that a 55 pound bow would be the perfect weight bow for the average shooter on larger big game animals but....
I shoot a 50 pound black widow that is 22 years old. I have taken 20 species with it and many were very large critters such as wildebeest, gemsbok etc. I do shoot heavy arrows with two blade lower profile heads like stingers on the really big stuff. I have taken several eland with this setup with the largest one over 2,000 pounds. I got a pass through on my last eland and none of them has traveled over 50 yards.
I am not an advocate of low poundage bows but 50 pounds is what I can handle accurately an it is just enough bow on larger animals.
:notworthy: love your response, couldn't agree more!
Quote from: wingnut on July 02, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Due to old age and medical restrictions I am limited to no more the 50# for the rest of my life. I hunt moose most every year with one of our 19" ultra lite risers and 51# on my fingers at my 30 1/2" draw. With a 560 gr arrow I'm about 200 fps.
I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a moose with it yet, but John shot one a few years ago with complete penetration. Would have blown through if he hadn't clipped the shoulder on the far side. Two blade Tuffheads did the job very nicely.
Mike
That's about 11 gpp traveling at 200 fps. Wow. Which bow are you shooting that generates that kind of speed at 11 gpp?
pdk25...one nice that hung on the wall for many years...he was slowly trotting passed from left to right...I swung and released and the deer turned inside out at the shot...he didn't go far...the arrow was buried to the fletch and had entered just behind the off shoulder as if the buck had been moving from right to left...I was most fortunate.