Worked up a set of dark timbers for my super kodiak. Here's the specs....50# bow and the arrows are 500's cut to 31. I bareshafted them and they fly nice. A little nock high but increased brace height and all good.
So I can add a length of hospital oxygen tubing and increase the weight from 488 to 668. Arrow flight is not much different....slower at 30 but not noticeable at 15.
I typically shoot heavy arrows at 600+ and usually shoot through most game animals. Just thought I'd get others thoughts on this....
Tim B
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I'm not the most experienced trad hunter...
but...I'd say somewhere in the middle would be best for what I do...I like about 12 grains/# myself.
I feel the lighter ones are a little too light...they'd work fine I'm sure on deer sized game..but I bet the heavier ones feel better on the shot.
If I had to choose between the two...I'd go with the heavier ones and learn the trajectory.
Both will work! The heavier ones will have greater momentum, and get better penetration on bigger, thicker critters. The 668gr arrow is over 13gpp, and that is very heavy, and I would think, very slow. I would ditch the tubing, and maybe try a 50gr or 100gr insert. By adding the weight up front, you will probably have to shorten the shaft just a bit, but you will also increase FOC!!!!
JMHO
Bisch
I like heavier. Bow is quieter, and I in practice I can see the arrows trajectory better. For the way I shoot, I think it helps my brain get on track with holdover and whatnot. Stupid I know, but works for me.
Moderation may be the best combination. Excessive weight will be slow with a difficult trajectory, and too light may lack penetration. I agree with Zradix that somewhere in the middle (with perhaps a slight increase in weight). I hunt mostly deer so 10 gpi works fine for me. Bigger, tougher game may need a bit more weight. Just find what works best with your equipment.
I would go for the 488 over the heavier shaft to much of a rainbow trajectory will end up in a miss or wounded game . Your not going to gain that much penetration with that weight over the faster arrow with a 50lb. bow . Ive shot some pretty big animals with 500 gr. and slightly less with 50 lb. bows and got great penetration . I've said this before penetration is not an issue on North American game as long as you use equipment that is within reason .
I think Bisch is right if you think you need more weight use a 50gr. brass insert .
At one time I used fish tank plastic tubing to increase the weight of my carbon shafts. Had a lot of problems with the tubing popping my nocks out upon impact. I think a much better approach for increasing weight is to use heavy point inserts and/or heavy broadhead adapters. This will also increase your FOC which I think is a good thing for penetration.
I'm not a fan of the tubing because while it adds mass, it's along the entire shaft and that's not really where you want the weight.
I'm kind of in there right now because I've got arrows that are lighter than I'm used to (9gpp), but they're really fast and fly like darts. In real life, a 480gr traveling at 190fps with a sharp broadhead will kill pretty much anything including elk...but my gut says to add more weight (the trick is whether it's REALLY my gut or just habit).
I've got some heavy woods that clock in at around 700gr, but they're NOTICEABLY slower. Like even the naked eye can see the difference, so I'm going with lighter myself and seeing what happens!
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668 is overkill in my book and if you can get into the low 500s, you're golden. Flatter trajectory will really help you improve your groups at longer ranges.
By estimating that you were using a 200 gn point...A Black Eagle Carnivore 400 would be a viable option...100 gn insert...250 gn point...~29 5/8 length...~573 total...~11.5 gpp...~29.6 EFOC
There have been studies regarding white tail deer reaction time to shot noise, they are inhumanly fast. Speed isnt something you should just throw away as being irrelevant. Doesnt matter how heavy that arrow is if its a high shot.
http://www.fullpotentialoutdoors.com/deer-reaction-time-jumping-string/
400s with heavier points/inserts will probably make you a nicer arrow.
Tedd
I agree with Bisch. FOC is more important than total weight. 50 gr inserts depending on the weight of head your using.
All good input boys- thanks
Tim B
Well I tried to post pictures by changing every size that I have but it won't post....ANYWAY....I'm in the heavy arrow camp. My buddy Bill Terry took a bear with a 28" 1200 grain fish arrow two weeks ago on a hunt that we were on in New Brunswick. It was his 360th big game animal taken with traditional equipment
Quote from: FoCoBlackWidow on June 12, 2019, 06:06:58 PM
668 is overkill in my book and if you can get into the low 500s, you're golden. Flatter trajectory will really help you improve your groups at longer ranges.
It's a law of diminishing returns. After a certain point, the lethality of an arrow sort of flattens out. Dead is dead and if it penetrates the vitals, that's what happens. As long as it can deal with a bone or two, it doesn't matter if it's 500gr or 5000gr.
There's a massive trade off when you increase weight in speed and trajectory. An extra 150gr is great...but is it more effective when you bring the loss of velocity and arrow drop?
I have some 700gr woodies that hit like freight trains...but the actual penetration difference from my 500gr carbons is negligible. What's not negligible is the speed and drop at 20yds (I almost never shoot live animals past 20yds).
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Hey Tim.
I'm in the middle camp also. I have made up quite a few arrows in the 650-700 range and they shoot great. I'm shooting 53 # and have moved back down to the 550-575 range. I feel these give me a lot better trajectory and good penetration also.
Richard Petty always said "FASTER" is better.
Quote from: blacktailbob on June 13, 2019, 01:31:24 PM
Richard Petty always said "FASTER" is better.
Bullets don't weigh much at all...
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I shoot mid to upper 60#'s, so 640-710 is @10 gpp for me. On my 66-71# bows I prefer 750ish. It's easier picking up your arrows on the other side than looking for them along the blood trail. ;-)
I lean toward the Ashby camp. 650+ grains, lots of FOC. But I probably overcompensate from lack of much personal experience.
On the one hand, I appreciated that my arrow buried itself to the fletching on my turkey this year, even though the broadhead was dull from being shot into the dirt earlier that day. Couldn't shave a single hair off and it still soaked the fletching in blood.
On the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have buried a few arrows in the dirt under those turkeys if they were a little lighter and faster...
Yup, 1,263 grain arrow, quiet as mouse, slow as a slug, deadly as Chuck Norris.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48058465062_d071e0fa8b_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48058418873_18fa4ce0af_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48058418733_4973779c1d_k.jpg)
Thanks Wes. I couldn't post those pictures for some reason!!
Quote from: Sean B on June 13, 2019, 08:32:19 PM
Thanks Wes. I couldn't post those pictures for some reason!!
Got cha covered!
Quote from: Friend on June 12, 2019, 06:30:09 PM
By estimating that you were using a 200 gn point...A Black Eagle Carnivore 400 would be a viable option...100 gn insert...250 gn point...~29 5/8 length...~573 total...~11.5 gpp...~29.6 EFOC
err, your gpi is wrong - 400 carnivore is 6.8 gpi
i am building with 350 spine and 100 gr inserts plus 190 grain points for a 530 grainer at 7.5 gpi
acedoc... 'gpp' represents grains per pound
Quote from: Friend on June 14, 2019, 01:13:40 AM
acedoc... 'gpp' represents grains per pound
My bad! Should have been more deliberate in reading.
I've tried shooting heavier arrows around 700 grains, but I always end up coming back to my 500 grain arrows for most of my bows. Personally I prefer a faster arrow because I've seen what a deer can do in the time between them hearing the bow and the arrow getting there. If you listen to interviews with Rick Duggan and Nathan Andersohn who both completed the super slam shooting traditional equipment, neither of them shoot overly heavy arrows. I don't remember which but I thought I remembered one of them using arrows that weighed around 475-480 grains for the majority of their hunts.
I don't know whether this helps, but I shot my first archery deer with a lighter draw weight wheel bow that shot that arrow about the same speed that my current hunting bow shoots a 500 grain arrow. That arrow weighed about 400 grains and zipped right through the deer at 19 yards. Was using a 85 grain stinger broadhead without the bleeder vanes.
Interesting discussion....keep it coming
Tim B
Read an ebook by a gent call Nick Berkampas who was shooting 14 gpp even with low poundage bows and was confident of taking any game with a proportionate adjusted arrow. A google search may help.
9-10 gpp....
The standard for balancing penetration and trajectory.
Especially if you are getting a .500 shaft to fly from a 50# bow.
Quote from: acedoc on June 14, 2019, 12:38:28 AM
Quote from: Friend on June 12, 2019, 06:30:09 PM
By estimating that you were using a 200 gn point...A Black Eagle Carnivore 400 would be a viable option...100 gn insert...250 gn point...~29 5/8 length...~573 total...~11.5 gpp...~29.6 EFOC
err, your gpi is wrong - 400 carnivore is 6.8 gpi
i am building with 350 spine and 100 gr inserts plus 190 grain points for a 530 grainer at 7.5 gpi
I think he was going by grains per pound of draw, not grains per inch. Normally, we talk in gpp because it's the weight of the arrow relative to draw weight that determines the energy.
*sorry, didn't see that someone already said it above.
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Quote from: acedoc on June 14, 2019, 07:18:11 AM
Read an ebook by a gent call Nick Berkampas who was shooting 14 gpp even with low poundage bows and was confident of taking any game with a proportionate adjusted arrow. A google search may help.
I'm with Trenton G on this one. While a heavy arrow may penetrate better, deer are awfully fast animals and unless you're shooting a 70+# recurve, it's going to be decidedly slower than a 9-10gpp arrow. I can see the difference just shooting in the backyard without a chrony.
It's more than enough of a difference to turn a lung shot into a gut shot.
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Quote from: Maddog20/20 on June 14, 2019, 08:14:38 AM
Quote from: acedoc on June 14, 2019, 07:18:11 AM
Read an ebook by a gent call Nick Berkampas who was shooting 14 gpp even with low poundage bows and was confident of taking any game with a proportionate adjusted arrow. A google search may help.
I'm with Trenton G on this one. While a heavy arrow may penetrate better, deer are awfully fast animals and unless you're shooting a 70+# recurve, it's going to be decidedly slower than a 9-10gpp arrow. I can see the difference just shooting in the backyard without a chrony.
It's more than enough of a difference to turn a lung shot into a gut shot.
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I have shifted to an arrow around 150 grains lighter, I saw a 10 inch change in poi. Will update with chrony results on Sunday. I can't say for reaction of game but the result should translate linearly.
I have to say that I did not see any change in penetration on foam which may or not mean anything even with high Foc that I am running now. This is my subjective experience based on my experience and condition.
So my take on this subject given the discussions is... I can kill stuff with a dull broadhead if my arrow is heavy enough. Seriously? :banghead:
Nope sir! I don't think anyone would shoot a dull head at game. I think we all are tinkerers trying or best to optimize things - most having some part of the picture not realizing that they are parts of one mosaic.
Anyway nothing is better than fast heavy arrow :goldtooth:
When I think about animal reaction times I would think a white, excuse me...a very wary edgy whiteltail probably has some of the fasted reactions of any animal there is.
That said an arrow traveling 190 fps will arrive at a 30 yd target about 15 ft faster than an arrow going 160 fps as well as on a flatter trajectory as some here have noted.
My 44# Blacktail Sitka shoots my 423 gr ( or 9.7 gpp ) arrows about 188-190 fps and jumping up 50 grains to 10.9 gpp drops speed about 8 fps. So adding more weight yet becomes very noticeable in speed drop. If we humans can notice the difference I guarantee you a whitetail will also be able to react faster to a slower arrow.
If I were to drop even lighter I would get more speed but I also notice more bow noise which is way faster than an arrow. Going heavier than 9.7 gpp doesn't appear to my ears to be significantly quieter, so I'm sticking with the 9.7 gpp weight.
The trick I guess is figuring out what is best for your particular set up and needs. Speed vs noise. Yes a slow, mouse quiet bow will be quite deadly compared to a loud bow.