I just purchased a slightly used Dryad Epic ILF and am trying to get it tuned. I have my arrow spine (nock left / Nock right ) flying very straight but I'm seeing a good bit of up and down in flight. All my arrows look great in the target but in flight they look like they wobble all over the place. I have adjusted my nock point several times and have it set to the position that's giving me the best flight but not great. I replaced my shelf rug with a piece of soft Velcro and after shooting 30-40 shots have burned a hole in the Velcro with my fletching and destroyed fletching on several arrows. The most puzzling part is where the arrow seem to be riding on the shelf, the hole from the arrows is on the outer most left part of the shelf. I'm a right handed shooter and the arrow is riding on the back left corner of the shelf, any farther left and the arrow will be riding my knuckles as the rest. With a arrow nocked and just sitting on the shelf its right up against the side plate (but not in flight) and best I can tell limbs, arrow, and string are all in line.
Is this just normal or am I over looking something in the tuning ability of this ILF?
Don't know if I understand your description. Regardless, I'll take a shot at it. I assume your bow is cut close to or even past center. If so, you're either nocked too low and/or the arrow is too stiff and/or your brace height is too low or some combination of these.
If you're nocked too low, the tail end of the shaft will glance off the shelf as the arrow passes causing the arrow to purpoise in flight. If the arrow is too stiff, it will glance off the side plate, which still could leave a mark on the outside of the shelf, but should cause more fishtailing. A brace height that's too low would accentuate the glancing and fishtailing. Of course, if the nock point is too low, a low brace height would also accentuate the porpoising.
If the limbs are out of tiller, it could also cause/contribute to porpoising as well. If you shoot split, you would probably do well to have about 3/16 to 1/4-inch positive tiller. If you shoot three under, even tiller would likely work better. What is it on your bow?
Would help to have more information, i.e., What is your brace height and nock point height. What spine are your arrows and what is the draw weight at your draw length.
One other factor to check. When the arrow is on the rest against the side plate, where is the point of your arrow related to the string when the string is centered on the bow limbs -- inside the string, bisected by the string or outside (to the left of) the string?
I will look at and gather that information tonight and post.
I agree with everything Orion suggested.
The symptoms you describe could be caused by shooting with a split fingers string grip and bearing down too hard with your index finger on the arrow nock. This can cause a downward flex in the arrow, which causes a rebound off the arrow shelf, and makes it impossible to get level bare shaft flight. It could also be causing the shelf wear you describe.
Have you been testing using a bare shaft or fletched arrows?
I shoot 3 under with very soft fingers, I've been shooting for 30 years with 1 piece bows and never run into this. I know my brace height is set to 7 3/4 and I have been shooting bare and fletched shafts with same result. The arrows I'm shooting are Golf tip 5575 (400) @ 29'' shaft only length with 165gr at the tip and 9gr nocks. I draw the bow to 28'' @ 44lbs and the 5575 bare shaft is giving me a very true flight with no left or right nock flight. I'm not sure of my tiller I know I checked it and got them close to the same but not sure witch is slightly stronger or weaker. my nock point is 1/8th'' high over center, I'm thinking I need to pay a LOT more attention to the tiller as this seems to be the only thing I have not yet played with.
Your arrows are on the stiff side, but on an a bow cut to or past center, one can overspend by a lot and still get good arrow flight. Brace height seems high enough.
Agree that you should check tiller again, but I also think your nock point is on the low side, particularly for a 3 under shooter. Are you saying the bottom of your nocked arrow is 1/8-inch above the shelf when nocked? I'd raise that a lot -- 1/4 to 1/2 inch, maybe more
the bottom of the nock point on the string is 1/8'' above center. How low of spine do you think I should try? my wife shoots the same arrow but 600's. Should I strip the fletching's off one of her arrows and try or is 600 to light?
Your nock point is too low. I'm always at around 5/8 for three under. Try 3/4 and slowly work your way down.
As I suggested above, raise the nock point before experimenting with different arrow spines. .400s are stiff, but certainly workable with your bow cut past center.
I'm going to do some adjusting to nock point and tiller this evening and see what happens. I'll let you'll know how it works out, thank you for all the input so far.
I shoot 3 under and my nocking point is usually 3/4" above the shelf on all of my bows.
If the bottom of the nock POINT is 1/8" above square, that means the arrow shaft is actually angled up from where it is nocked to the arrow rest. I've never seen a traditional bow that this would work for, unless you are nocking the arrow above the nock point, which I doubt given that you grip the string 3 under.
I just went back and reread your and McDave's posts about your nock point height. I was thinking the bottom of your arrow nock was 1/8-inch above the shelf when nocked, but if McDave's interpretation is correct, the bottom of your arrow as nocked is actually lower than the shelf, as he points out. Agreed, that that's an even bigger problem. Need to raise the nock point a bunch.
update from last nights adjusting.
I ended my shooting light last night with my arrow nocking at 3/4 above center. I went all the way up to 1'' and worked back down and 3/4 seems to be the best but it isn't great. It has defiantly made a difference in arrow flight but still not good. I'm at a even tiller and think I'm going to start adjusting tiller to see if it will help.
3/4 may be too high. I shoot 3 under, and most of my bows are nocked in the range of 1/2 - 5/8, depending on the bow. It makes a dramatic difference when I hit the exact sweet spot, wherever that may be.
If you're still getting porpoising, play with your nock height a little more. If you're getting fishtailing, it may be time to try a little lighter spine or add a little more weight to the front of the arrow.
I have been shooting the same bows with arrows of the same specs for so long that my tuning process has become pretty easy. Generally, when something funky is happening, I look at the string. Often, brace height and nock location adjustments solve the problem. I don't tinker around with 3 under or new anchor points, etc. that might be a factor. However, when the afore mentioned adjustments don't work, I am stumped and start over again with a different string.
You can figure out all of the settings including the perfect combination of brace height, spine and nock point if you shoot some bare shafts along with some fletched shafts and make adjustments to get the bare shafts grouping with your fletched shafts.
Sounds like an arrow mismatch for spine. You should not be hitting the shelf after release.
It's not about adjustment if your arrow is not spined correctly.
What Limbs do you have? weight? drawlength? spine of current arrows?
Mike
Try a 1/8th negative tiller once.
Quote from: wingnut on April 03, 2019, 12:06:56 PM
Sounds like an arrow mismatch for spine. You should not be hitting the shelf after release.
It's not about adjustment if your arrow is not spined correctly.
What Limbs do you have? weight? drawlength? spine of current arrows?
Mike
I have the ACS-RC 43-17 @ my 28'' draw I'm scaling 44lbs. I'm currently shooting GT traditional 5575 (400) @ 29'' (shaft only length) total of 165gr up front and 9gr nock weight. Bow is set to 8'' brace and even tiller with current nock point at 3/4 over center.
From 1/2 - 3/4 over center the problem of burning up the shelf rug and arrow fletching is gone but flight is still proposing. I'm not seeing any noticeable left to right (fishtailing) with bare shaft. I know the 400's are on the stiff side but worked great out of my 50lb 54'' reflex deflex so thought they could work out of a past center cut bow. As funny as it sounds I'm actually getting better flight from bare shaft than fletched.
If you're getting better bare shaft flight, that means your feathers are still hitting the riser somewhere they shouldn't. Have you tried turning cock feather in?
Yes, I played around with that a little yesterday and it did help a bit. I'm going out of town for a few day and won't be able to play with it for a few. think I'm going to order some 500 spine so when I get back I can start from scratch with them.
I really do appreciate everyone who has chimed in to help me out.
To be continued................
Highly expect the current setup is over spined....an additional 2"s plus in shaft length may be required for the 165 gn point or a 225 gn point range at the current 29" shaft length would be my calculated estimate.
So I got a chance to shoot again tonight and picked up a bare shaft GT 500 to shoot and try to tune. The 500 is 30" and a 125gr point so if figured this would be a great starting point. First shot I get a massive nock left flight from 5 yards. I thing no way so I try again and same thing, I installed a 200gr point and no difference. I then shoot a 29" GT 400 with the 200gr point and get the same results.
At this point I figure it must be me, my release, twisting the string while drawing or something. I shot 4 more times with both arrows using a old string release to eliminate possible string twist or poor release but got the same nock left. I then had my wife shoot it and again nock left. Could this be why I got a like new bow for a great deal?
Side note: this isn't my first trad, I've been shooting recurves since I was 5 and never had a problem tuning. This is my first ILF and looking like it my be the first bow I use as firewood.
If you were getting nock left with the 30" .400 spine and 125 grains up front, you're likely underspined. Instead of going up to 200 grains, maybe drop down to 100 or start cutting the shaft down. Also, if you're able to film it, that could help seeing whats going on.
Quote from: Bart S on April 09, 2019, 03:18:51 AM
If you were getting nock left with the 30" .400 spine and 125 grains up front, you're likely underspined. Instead of going up to 200 grains, maybe drop down to 100 or start cutting the shaft down. Also, if you're able to film it, that could help seeing whats going on.
Thanks Bart, but I don't think spine is the problem at this point. I'm only pulling 44lbs and 29" arrow is as short as I can go. I shoot the same .400 29'' out of a 55lb Treadway and they fly like lasers.
Are your limbs marked top and bottom?
Quote from: Roy from Pa on April 09, 2019, 09:55:02 AM
Are your limbs marked top and bottom?
Roy, they are not. I placed the limb with the specs i.e. poundage on the bottom.