Trad Gang

Years ago it was a great accomplishment to kill a deer with a bow. Heck it was a great accomplishment period it seemed.
We'd drive around to show friends, we were high for a week. Nowadays imo many just don't get it.
Instead of learning the sport and becoming knowledgeable of an animal/animals habits many take an easier way out.
Days of long range scouting w binoculars or on foot are replaced by trail cams, days of finding a preferred food source during a certain time of year are now replaced by carrying a bucket of bait in.
Preseason I can remember sharpening blades as almost a religion. Now many say "they just can't do it". Nonsense.
The idea is a dead deer to be sure. On here we prob have some older school mentality but what about our youth?
Years back a fellow n I were discussing such things helping park cars at a 3D shoot.
A fellow assisting commented we were gonna hate him. He dropped his tailgate to reveal a ladder stand, camera n bags of corn.
I informed him there was no hate but had he ever killed a deer with no bait? He said no. I told him w no disrespect he hadn't event earned his hypethetical bowhunter patch yet.
If I invited him to a place w no bait allowed in NY what would he look for? Where would he set up?
His wide eyed stare and open mouth showed he didn't know.  I gave him suggestions to help but as of now a whole generation has grown up baiting, using crossguns, cameras, presharpened broadheads and disposable blade knives.
If ever any of this was outlawed (especially bait) my fear is a bunch of guys would eventually leave n who's left to fight for our sport? Who's left to pass anything down? Who would even know how?
I know the same weak excuses I always hear will be thrown out in defense of this nonsense. That's not my point so no need to even say them.  I didn't grow up this way, many others didn't either and we succeeded.
Help the next generation at least have an understanding, mentor a kid to the old ways and pass it down.
Its only a small step in turning this around and it may be too late but I know I'll always try. Hope others do too.

I don't think you can expect a kid to appreciate the good ole days, hunting or not.    Different area's have totally different regulations for hunting and who I'm I to say they had no ethics? or cheated?  Hunting is quickly  becoming a rich man's sport, and IMHO that is not good for the future.     

Yep! Your way or the highway!!!!

There's nothing wrong with folks doing things different ways. And just because someone does something different then the way you do, doesn't make it wrong!

I am one of the guys who can't sharpen a head by hand. It's not nonsense that somebody else is not able to do something we'll just because you can!!!!

Have a great day bashing others because they don't do it your way!!!! 

SMDH!!!!!

Bisch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

As I read..and re-read the OP's post i see that he is merely remembering the dynamic of the hunt as "it was" and commenting on the present day approach to hunting.  I remember those days when ya had to scout out the national forests in Northern Michigan...and by law ya had to hunt on the ground and baiting was not allowed.   It was truly more difficult to score back then but (for me) I found a greater satisfaction in remembering what it took to get that shot.

These days are different...not worse or better...but different and I can appreciate all forms of the legal kill.   Times have changed and will continue to do so and our sucessors will undoubtedly follow suit.   That's the way it is.   :archer:

I was going to reply to someone's post... but it looks like a mod deleted it....and I'm not sure why.

Whoever posted it I'm really sorry it got deleted.  I know you put a lot of time into typing that.

     I'm 46 years old and have been bow hunting for 34 years since I was 12 years old. 33 of those years I used a compound, I switched to a "traditional" recurve last year. I had gotten to the point that hunting with my compound wasn't as rewarding anymore for me personally. My neighbor Jason (Wojo14 on here) invited me to shoot some of his "traditional" bows and I was hooked. I truly love it and only regret that I hadn't made the switch sooner.

     I think it is human nature to pine for days gone by or how things used to be. Hunting with a stick and a string satisfies those urges for I assume everyone that does it.

     One of the great things about hunting is you get to do it YOUR way as long as it's legal. I hunt how I hunt and YOU hunt how you hunt and that is the way it should be.

     I worry as well that some of the things I Love about hunting will be lost on future generations but we as hunters are the only people that can remedy that. My son is 12 and he wants to hunt with a recurve when he gets big enough to pull back a legal weight. That makes me happy but I realize if I hadn't have gotten involved in "traditional" archery he'd probably be picking up a compound because that is what Dad is doing.

     There are probably a lot more guys like I was than we realize, guys that would love to shoot and hunt with a traditional bow. They just might not have had the opportunity to try it yet. Be proactive, ask that compound guy at the next 3D shoot if he'd like to shoot your bow. Heck, ask a crossgun guy if he'd like to shoot your bow. You never know, get one person interested and they get someone else interested and so on. Just some thoughts of a "newbie".

I agree with the OP about learning the "trade" of bowhunting and not following blindly the "heros" of TV hunts who talk about "smokin" that deer and high fiving like they haven't been there before and showing little respect for the animal whose life they just extinguished. To bash the original poster for "bashing" others smacks of the same mentality as I see it.  We all feel that our way is the best way or the only way and we need to be careful about that attitude, but it works both ways I think.  I have no animus toward those who choose to pursue legal means of hunting if they differ from my own approach, but I do feel that something of value is being lost in the lack of woodsmanship often seen today and the way to success is seen as buying the right stuff.

For me traditional "hunting" is doing it the old way, without all the electronic gadgets, etc.  I would say from what I've read and EMP burst would pretty much finish it for 90% of the hunters on here.  That doesn't make them bad hunters, just guys who have never learned how to read a map, use a compass, or survive without checking their smart phone every half hour.  Actually, I feel sorry for them.  And yes I say that from my keyboard, but I'm not out in the woods with it either.

What's worse is how their kids and grand kids will view hunting and the outdoors.  I actually heard of a woman complaining to a forest ranger that a trail in a national wilderness  was not handicapped accessible.  The whole thing seems like a very steep slippery slope.

I have mixed feelings about what you have written. I certainly feel that many today would not be successful (in whichever manner they measure success) without many technological enhancements, the use of bait, etc. Yet, it is legal, and more importantly, it is their choice. I don't care to use these things, and I do not personally approve of them. Yet, as I said, others like them and have the right to use them. I guess more of us old timers prefer the older ways and genuinely miss them, but despite all the gloom and doom, even with the misgivings of today's practices, the sun still rose in the east the same as it did all those years ago. I will oppose the passage of legislation that I disagree with, but once it is passed, I won't defame those who use new regs to their benefit. Even though my sentiment lies in the past, I still live in the present, and I accept the present. No, I won't rush out and buy a compound, a crossbow, or start baiting deer, because that's not the personal choice I make. Nor will I preach against those who don't see things the way I do. As long as it is legal, to each his own. But yes, I am conflicted on this.

The radical changes in technology in the last 20 years have changed many things, moreso for the young than for those of us who grew up in the pre-technology age and prefer it that way.  After all, it's still possible to accept or reject technology, for the most part (thank God).  For the young who have fully accepted it and immersed themselves in it, it has opened new doors for employment opportunities and other experiences that we older folks will never have, and probably won't miss.  I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, after we have all died off, there isn't a resurgence of interest in understanding how to live outdoors without the aid of technology.  People who are interested in this trend will dig up all the old articles and books to figure out how we did it, and there will be trendy seminars and books by the new self-proclaimed experts in how to understand animals and how to move about the earth with only a map and compass.

Few pursuits suffer as much from provincialism as hunting does.

Guys to be clear I was bashing no one.
Seems some of the guys understand.

Quote from: McDave on March 04, 2019, 10:46:19 AM
The radical changes in technology in the last 20 years have changed many things, moreso for the young than for those of us who grew up in the pre-technology age and prefer it that way.  After all, it's still possible to accept or reject technology, for the most part (thank God).  For the young who have fully accepted it and immersed themselves in it, it has opened new doors for employment opportunities and other experiences that we older folks will never have, and probably won't miss.  I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, after we have all died off, there isn't a resurgence of interest in understanding how to live outdoors without the aid of technology.  People who are interested in this trend will dig up all the old articles and books to figure out how we did it, and there will be trendy seminars and books by the new self-proclaimed experts in how to understand animals and how to move about the earth with only a map and compass.

Funny you say that, I've thought the exact same thing

Quote from: Tony Van Dort on March 04, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
As I read..and re-read the OP's post i see that he is merely remembering the dynamic of the hunt as "it was" and commenting on the present day approach to hunting.  I remember those days when ya had to scout out the national forests in Northern Michigan...and by law ya had to hunt on the ground and baiting was not allowed.   It was truly more difficult to score back then but (for me) I found a greater satisfaction in remembering what it took to get that shot.

These days are different...not worse or better...but different and I can appreciate all forms of the legal kill.   Times have changed and will continue to do so and our sucessors will undoubtedly follow suit.   That's the way it is.   :archer:

I have to lean your way.  When I was growing up, (pre-compound bows) there was allot of effort put into scouting and picking just the right spot.  Learning the escape routing used when the big hunting gangs started their drives across the mountain during gun season when we still had bows in our hands.  Knife sharpening was passed down from father to son, or grandfather to grandson.  Woods craft as well.  Life goes on, technology advances, its not bad just not the same.  Man will always look for a faster, easier way.  Imagine the man who came up with the first bow, the spear guys were probably upset!!!

Bowguy - If you watch hunting shows and keep up with the industry news, you'd certainly think hunting's going down the crapper.

But what you may not see is a huge resurgence in traditional archery happening right now. Aron Snyder, for one is bringing loads of young guys from Compound to trad with his podcast (Kifaru Cast), videos, gear.

Tomorrow Donnie Vincent is coming on my podcast to talk about his recent transition into Trad. If you aren't familiar, google the guy. His films are outstanding. I know him personally and he's the real deal.

There is a scene that is happening that you may not be plugged into. The Push Archery and Tom Clum's instructional videos are teaching thousands of men/women how to shoot a trad bow well. As for interest and new blood into the sport, things are maybe better than ever in some ways!

Your perspective is pretty narrow in my opinion. Sure the easy way is very attractive to your approach hunters and I for one loath seeing the crossbow accepted as a "bow" that's legal for archery season. But progress and culture never sit still. If we expected especially young men/women to want to do it the "hard way" we'd watch a swift and fatal decline of hunting.

I'd say be a little warmer with your approach and encourage these guys to explore the hard way. Telling them they haven't earned their archery badge is just rude and shaming. I personally wouldn't give you the time of day if you started judging me the first time I met you.
I'm mentoring a compound guy rite now. I expect he'll switch to trad once he learns how to actually find deer and gets some kills under his belt. If not and he wants to run a wheelie bow his whole life - fine by me. Live and let live, I say.

My younger brother just let me know in a text that he is moving to a crossbow.  Initially, I was a bit shocked, I got him his first recurve, than in the last several years he has moved to compound.  Now due to two rotary cuff surgeries he is finding it difficult to draw a bow.  I understand that he still wants to experience the hunt, so that is what he choses to do.  Thank God, I have remained healthy enough to continue shooting my 67-71# longbows.  Life moves on.

Agree with you 100% Bowguy and likewise BAK. Regardless of the activity, we get out of it what we put into it.  What I find ironic is that many of the folks who purport to choose to hunt with traditional equipment because of the greater challenge it offers also employ every gadget and practice in the book to make the hunt easier. Just doesn't compute for this old guy.  Seems that substituting technology and baiting/feeding for learned experience and knowledge would lessen the  sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

On the other hand, each generation tends to think that it's always been as witnessed in their time.  Few have a good sense of or interest in history.  So if they've never known anything else, current practices and technology are normal, and I suppose they have become so.  Be that as it may, I find it a loss.  The remnants of the way it was will likely die with my generation.  Just an old guy's lament.     

Quote from: tcw on March 04, 2019, 10:57:15 AM
Bowguy - If you watch hunting shows and keep up with the industry news, you'd certainly think hunting's going down the crapper.

But what you may not see is a huge resurgence in traditional archery happening right now. Aron Snyder, for one is bringing loads of young guys from Compound to trad with his podcast (Kifaru Cast), videos, gear.

Tomorrow Donnie Vincent is coming on my podcast to talk about his recent transition into Trad. If you aren't familiar, google the guy. His films are outstanding. I know him personally and he's the real deal.

There is a scene that is happening that you may not be plugged into. The Push Archery and Tom Clum's instructional videos are teaching thousands of men/women how to shoot a trad bow well. As for interest and new blood into the sport, things are maybe better than ever in some ways!

Your perspective is pretty narrow in my opinion. Sure the easy way is very attractive to your approach hunters and I for one loath seeing the crossbow accepted as a "bow" that's legal for archery season. But progress and culture never sit still. If we expected especially young men/women to want to do it the "hard way" we'd watch a swift and fatal decline of hunting.

I'd say be a little warmer with your approach and encourage these guys to explore the hard way. Telling them they haven't earned their archery badge is just rude and shaming. I personally wouldn't give you the time of day if you started judging me the first time I met you.
I'm mentoring a compound guy rite now. I expect he'll switch to trad once he learns how to actually find deer and gets some kills under his belt. If not and he wants to run a wheelie bow his whole life - fine by me. Live and let live, I say.

Buddy I'm sorry I don't watch hunting shows or listen to podcasts. I don't even know how and until a week or so ago didn't even know what they were.
Far as the way I speak there's no voice inflection nor tone of voice on here. Sure many who feel your way may have been taken incorrectly say texting. Same thing.
Plenty of people that talk to me one on one can testify to my talking straight but being considerate.
That wasn't the point though. It was passing it down so it's not lost and maybe some reminiscing
You actually don't need to do any of this if you don't wish and I'm not trying to force anyone
If someone is looking at things negatively they can interpret words as such.
Far as the compound guy, did I even mention that??  I teach all disciplines including compounds w releases. The only place I draw a line is crossgun. I just have no interest.
Far as you not giving me the time of day, I'm sorry again but if you're overly sensitive I really wouldn't care.,
The archery patch thing was only to help him understand.
It wasn't said belittling in the least. The man was helping us and I was trying to help him, remember we had a back n forth conversation w nothing Ill felt nor anything disrespectful said or inferred. If he liked his way that was ok too but my point is and was to him what would he look for and where would he sit? He had no idea.
That's a shame. Was he a bowhunter or a deer shooter?
Are slaughter permit guys deer hunters? How bout guys in a fence? There are lines and I'm not saying they are all the same but they all kill deer. So I'll ask again are they hunters?
Take the words I've said any way you wish. Read them matter of factly and as non pointed if you want to understand.

"" For the young who have fully accepted it and immersed themselves in it, it has opened new doors for employment opportunities and other experiences that we older folks will never have,""

Actually every generation can say that, with the computer revolution, with the industrial revolution, etc, etc, etc....

But I think what the original poster is saying is simply this.....

Hunting with your brain and honing your skills is being replaced  by electronics and mechanics.

Quote from: Bowguy67 on March 04, 2019, 10:51:31 AM
Guys to be clear I was bashing no one.
Seems some of the guys understand.

Maybe not intentionally but you were.  You aren't making these comments inside a group of close family or friends whom all identities 100% with you.  This is a forum that reaches international hunters who share a minimum of one thing with you.  They use a bow with a single string.
Most of us live in an urban environment.  Our time afield is limited as is our children's.   I grew up in a wilderness area and learned to fish, trap and hunt early in life but ended up 1700 miles from home living in a city to have a good job to support a family.  My son did not get the opportunity to grow up in the wild like I did.  The few weekends a year one gets to drive a couple of hundred miles to the lease need to be used productively.   
Every comment we post negative about the way someone else does things is a personal attack on them. Calling crossbows crossguns is a cheapshot.  Telling someone they aren't a real bowhunter because they choose a compound is a cheapshot.
We choose this discipline for ourselves for various reasons but hopefully arrogance and spite aren't among them.
I don't find the TV hunters way appealing but I control the remote so . . .
Woodsmanship seems to be losing ground but it's up to us to teach younger folk the ways.
I promise you though that ridiculing their chosen method or insulting their intelligence with comments such as some will not help their ability to listen to or respect all the good things you could teach them.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Taking a deer, bear, hog, turkey,, alligator is still a great accomplishment in our camps. We use the same methods now we used in 1975 - not much has changed and the basic bow and arrow is the same. Had to think things through along the way obviously. Don't like seeing bait lumped in with technology creep. I know some of you think it is cheating but we don't see it as any different than hunting a farm. I have fond memories of hunting NY in the 70s and 80s.
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I guess "bashing" is in the eye of the beholder.  I didn't see the OP bashing at all. 

Quote from: Terry Green on March 04, 2019, 11:50:48 AM
"" For the young who have fully accepted it and immersed themselves in it, it has opened new doors for employment opportunities and other experiences that we older folks will never have,""

Actually every generation can say that, with the computer revolution, with the industrial revolution, etc, etc, etc....

But I think what the original poster is saying is simply this.....

Hunting with your brain and honing your skills is being replaced  by electronics and mechanics.

Yep... :wavey:
Thanks Terry for that simplification...

Bowguy67 I think I understand your opinion, after all this is a TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTING site, and I don't see you bashing anyone. I agree with Terry. Okkeith I hunt naked and use a rock and stick to kill my supper and I like it, yall put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I also don't think, as some are implying, that he is talking about better bow, arrow, string, or head materials.  He can correct me if I'm wrong,  but he's not eluding to traditional  bowhunting equipment....

But to gadgets outside the realm that are eroding our Woodsmanship.

I'm 47 years old and have had a bow in my hand from the time I could walk...

I have hunted many critters large and small and spent many years at studying everything involving archery hunting....

I have built self bows and chipped arrowheads and take large and small game with them..

My bow of choice is a longbow , D-bow , RD , self , ILF - depends on the day..

I also shoot wood , carbon , sometimes aluminum...

I have also hunted many years with no Camo.. but will and still do wear camouflage...

I have killed many animals with both stalking, still hunting, ambushes, waterholes, natural food sources, pushes ....

I have also killed many over bait that I have put out...

I have spent many many days in the mountains living off my back and hunting , my mountain hunts are usually 30 days a year...

I also use trail cameras, treestands , ground blinds , and binoculars...

Anyway I can rattle on , many know me here and know my history...

So I believe I can do what it takes in a variety of situations so I just need a list of what I can and can't do when I'm hunting..

I just need the set ways of what bow and method so I can be great also and not the slob currently I am ...

So if someone would please post up what I can and can't do please do , Thanks...

,,Sam,,

Well I'll say this....I can tell bowseason is over lol
Tim B

Yeah technology is creeping in.  Used to take weeks for a letter to get to one person or family.  Now a few keys strokes can reach the world in second, bad, bad, bad....

Quote from: TIM B on March 04, 2019, 12:50:57 PM
Well I'll say this....I can tell bowseason is over lol
Tim B

X2

Come on Turkey hunting!!!!

For me pre-season scouting on foot is part of the hunt & also fun. Better exercise than monitoring trail cameras on the computer. Sharpening broadheads & knives is not rocket science. But, my question has been, what is the difference between a bucket of apples compared with an apple orchard or a 4 acre food plot. The only difference I see is that food plots are not natural. I would like to point out that I don't think the bucket of apples is right. Another point is that I shoot traditional bows for the challenge & the fun that they are.  :archer2:

Sam....his post doesn't apply to everyone, and I certainly don't think it applies to you.

I think we are all I'm different places in our hunting journey. Some people stick with what works, others experiment and grow as hunters. Some if all do not know where their journey is taking them. Some stick to the well traveled path, while others look for other ways. Some look to pioneers for guidance while others buy their guidance from the outhouse channel.

All I can say is be a mentor and friend to other hunters. Some may need direction even if they don't know it. Lead by example and stand up for what's right. Don't be so quick to judge, you may learn something and you may have the ability to teach.

I agree with technology is taking the skills from everything we do in every aspect of life...

My post above is an honest question for people here where is the line in the sand for being a ( True Archery Hunter ) ...

Or is that a question for each individual to decide....

I know for a fact many of our forefathers used guides on hunts and also baited animals. Some also used poison on arrows and most would take very very long shots at animals. And also would not think twice about running shots , or running animals with dogs .. And I know they also hunted from trees and blinds and used camouflage..

So my questions still stand what exactly does a guy have to do ?????

I really need my patch...

,,Sam,,

Charlie just said it right ...

,,Sam,,,

As a "youngster" in the traditional community (27 y.o.), raising a youngster myself, perhaps I can offer a different perspective:

These days it seems kids are raised differently and hunters are treated differently.

My dad wasn't much of a hunter. He did some gun hunting before I can remember. When I started hunting with an interest in bowhunting I got the old "I don't want all my deer running around with arrows sticking out of them" comments from day one. He spent most of his time working himself ragged and then trying to rest on weekends, which didn't leave much time to hunt. For many of my friends, that was the same for their fathers. There was almost no mentoring in woodsmanship. Making money took priority, and no matter how much everyone seemed to make there were always more bills to pay. Add in primarily female teaching staff at the school with similar Disney outlooks on animals, and there was never much guidance in how to be a natural predator. They made sure we learned the Pythagorean theorem, though... which I have forgotten. Nine hours at a desk being told to sit down, shut up, and fill out paperwork to make it in this world followed by another two to five hours doing homework at night didn't leave much time to hunt, and most of my free time was spent just trying to build a selfbow and wooden arrows that worked so I COULD hunt.

I tried to "guarantee" success by shooting extremely heavy selfbows and arrows and doing so in the manner of the most successful traditional bowhunters I'd read about (Hill, Asbell, etc.). The difference was, those legends had devoted years to mastering their styles and methods and I was just a scrawny, uncoordinated, near-sighted high school kid trying to shoot a moderately sized whitetail under some oak trees. There were no mentors. I didn't have the money for a compound, and crossbows weren't legal, so I just kept trudging along hoping, more than anything, to get a chance at an animal where I DIDN'T WOUND IT FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD. No one hunted with traditional bows in the area and I certainly didn't want to be the lunatic sticking them in the rear ends with feathered arrows. That recipe for anxiety took its toll on my hunting for years.

It took six years before I connected on a deer, and even then it didn't go perfectly (liver hit) which lead to a lot of self-admonishment over whether I should even be hunting at all. That was in addition to the numerous negative comments about my pursuits from family and friends. At the moment I've taken around a dozen whitetail with stickbows. Some out of stands, some on the ground, however outside of the traditional bowhunting community and a few close friends those accomplishments aren't always treated as such. I still have family turn their noses up whenever hunting is even mentioned, and there are still comments from the older compound bowhunting crowd that make me feel like I'm just "getting in the way of real hunters" because I don't use more modern weapons. Doesn't just come from those using compounds. I've had traditional folks comment that my current hunting bows are of barely adequate poundage, that the deer I shoot are too small, or that my aiming style is for paper, not fur. Even when I try to make the right choices for myself and the game I pursue, someone has to chime in with what's wrong with it and why I'm still wrong.

It's not hard to see why there are so few youngsters taking up traditional bowhunting now. There's no room anymore for mistakes or learning. Now it seems like you have to step into this as a successful super-hunter or otherwise you're just a murderous goon or an ignorant wounder-to-be. There are bills to pay, too, and time is more valuable than ever. Sitting in the woods with a low-probability weapon, where even if your skill and determination pay off with a kill you'll be ridiculed and mocked by hunters and non-hunters alike... well, it doesn't always feel worth it for some meat in the freezer.

While the desire to earn my meat through self-discipline and determination runs deep, I don't push my stepson into hunting for these reasons. I talk to him about it and try to teach him what woodsmanship I know, but hunting can make you a target for hate-fueled attacks by others, even those supposedly on your side. The level of ridicule and the types of bile spewed at hunters anymore, even from other hunters, is overwhelming at times. I've made it clear to him that I'd support him with whatever weapon he wanted to use, if he wants to hunt at all, because of the pushback I'd received when I started hunting with a longbow. He gets plenty of the Disney nonsense from school and other family members, though, so I don't know if he'll even hunt. I'm just here to help him with a traditional hunting bow if he wants to pursue that path.

Quote from: tcw on March 04, 2019, 10:57:15 AM
Bowguy - If you watch hunting shows and keep up with the industry news, you'd certainly think hunting's going down the crapper.

But what you may not see is a huge resurgence in traditional archery happening right now. Aron Snyder, for one is bringing loads of young guys from Compound to trad with his podcast (Kifaru Cast), videos, gear.

Tomorrow Donnie Vincent is coming on my podcast to talk about his recent transition into Trad. If you aren't familiar, google the guy. His films are outstanding. I know him personally and he's the real deal.

There is a scene that is happening that you may not be plugged into. The Push Archery and Tom Clum's instructional videos are teaching thousands of men/women how to shoot a trad bow well. As for interest and new blood into the sport, things are maybe better than ever in some ways!

Your perspective is pretty narrow in my opinion. Sure the easy way is very attractive to your approach hunters and I for one loath seeing the crossbow accepted as a "bow" that's legal for archery season. But progress and culture never sit still. If we expected especially young men/women to want to do it the "hard way" we'd watch a swift and fatal decline of hunting.

I'd say be a little warmer with your approach and encourage these guys to explore the hard way. Telling them they haven't earned their archery badge is just rude and shaming. I personally wouldn't give you the time of day if you started judging me the first time I met you.
I'm mentoring a compound guy rite now. I expect he'll switch to trad once he learns how to actually find deer and gets some kills under his belt. If not and he wants to run a wheelie bow his whole life - fine by me. Live and let live, I say.

I could not agree more!

The influencers you suggested are game changers in the traditional community and are helping our sport to grow exponentially. These types of avenues are key to the growth of our sport. These types of people are the mentors of our youth now, not just a father, uncle etc. anymore!

We live a much different time from those that grew up hunting in the "pre internet" period. People no longer rely on the what they learn from their personal mentors. Its just a way of life. There is a far, I mean FAR, greater population of hunters than there were 20 years ago, and you can not expect them all to take the time to hunt, or become the woodsman that those in the past did. In such a fast paced world, many are taking their hunting approach the same way. But there is also a growing number of people that are stepping back and wanting a challenge, and wanting to be a better hunter, and you just have to be there to help them when they decide to do so.

Terry Green, I am the one that had the post deleted. It contained the exact same words that many more have now expressed without prejudice. I appreciate your thoughts on my post though and will use this as another example of how a post that someone doesn't agree with is deleted. It wasn't the first in my many years of expressing opinions on this site. It got bad enough at one point that I am on my second handle and identity. It seems some can express the identical opinions and quotes without hassle. I'm used to the double standard by now and again list this as one of our issues, censorship of views by certain individuals. There are literally unintended quotes from my post on here that are still up...... oh well such is life in the big city, again why I don't bother posting on this site much anymore...Ill stick to the classifieds if my money as a contributing member is still good enough.

Thanks Warchild....I assure you I didn't delete your post...like I said, I was trying to respond....sorry it was pulled as there was a lot of validity in your words.

Et All...

I will say this about baiting....I didn't grow up hunting deer over bait piles or feeders.  I have hunted that way, mostly TX, and it was a blast.

However, if the truth hurts I can't help it....If I grew up hunting over bait piles and feeders I wouldn't have the knowledge of how to hunt otherwise.  I wouldn't have a clue how to put the puzzle together....and putting the puzzle together is a Grand Prize in itself.

Are hunting and democratic socialism compatible? That is the real question going into the 2020s.   :dunno:   The technology thing scares me less than what kids are being taught about how they fit into this world and what happens at the polls.  I'm 37 soon with two little ones and I will fight to ensure they can hunt someday and not live in some banana republic abomination.

I can see the time is precious angle.  Living in the seventh largest city in the US and hunting Federal land, which restricts hunting time to Friday-Saturday-Sunday, only.  Unless the area is closed for Military training.  Thursday's for scouting not hunting.  This shrinks your time in the field greatly.  Feeders are used and other attractants to make your spot more interesting than the guys 600 yards away, potentially on Trail cameras reveal that much activity is Monday thru Wednesday.  Deer are not stupid, they soon figure out the couple days a week to avoid the feeder.  Hearing about fellas hunting like I used to in PA and IN, is fun, but frustrating.  Sure I could get a lease to hunt I wanted a few 100 miles away.  For several thousand dollars for the hunting season.  But that is not possible.  So, I hunt were I am with the rules here and do te best I can.  This year I did not get drawn to hunt government land so have not been in the woods at all.  Hunting has become a rich man's game in many parts.  Hope to make a trip to a WMA and get a few days of hog chasing done.  Longbow and wood arrows in hand.

A good ol debate is always good in my opinion and I'm not mad or upset about anything , as I like to learn...

This is not only about baiting I don't think..

I said earlier I keep hearing about how it use to be and the old timers. Well they used baiting and the most modern gear they had also. We can name names if needed also many of today's traditional icons use plenty of technology and bait for that matter...

To call those methods nonsense , I don't agree.... Or say an animal taken using one of those methods was not really hunted ???

If someone thinks it should only be done the old ways then you need to do more research on the subject cause it hasn't changed much. And we can can get into specific people and Trad icons if needed and also Native American and aboriginal hunters as well...

I will say again I'm not mad or upset , just more than one way to skin a cat...

,,Sam,,

No worries Warchild... I was just trying to lighten the mood on the whole topic and my post was deleted as well.

I was trying, in a tongue in cheek manner, to point out that it is only through modern convenience that we are able to sit around and contemplate how much better the non-technological old days were.

We seem to have a romantically shaded view of the past as being better, and hunters being less influenced by technology and "better" woodsman. Let's remember that it was Fred Bear that strongly promoted the POD as a way to more effectively dispatch game animals. He was also one of the first to incorporate fiberglass into bows and promote the NEW technology of compound bows. Pre-internet there were lots of books and magazine articles written. Taken as a whole, most of the information was as much crap as the digital information is today.

TV, technology and all the other gadgets have nothing to do with a lack of "woodsmanship". I don't feel like I am any less a hunter because I enjoy looking at photos taken by my game cameras. I am no less skillful in the woods because I use a welded together tree stand or a synthetic material pop up blind. I am no less a "woodsman" (whatever that is) because I keep feeders stocked with corn, millet, milo and whatever for all the wildlife to use. If a Gal or a Guy can only manage to get off work one or two weekends a year to hunt, they SHOULD use all of the legal means at their disposal in order to be successful. If a hunter chooses to go a more difficult way... good for them. Legally killing a game animal cleanly with a bow (any type of bow) is what makes someone a bow hunter.

Like I said... my earlier post was just meant to be fun and DID NOT mention anyone in a disrespectful way or have anything disrespectful to the original post or any following posts. We seem to take ourselves way to seriously around here... sometimes anyway.

OkKeith

I agree Sam.

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Any kid that gets doing it The Hard Way, and has the stuff to stick to it until he is good enough to hunt on his own, gets to keep all of the stuff that was supplied to get him to that point.  What goes around comes around. 

I'll be turning 61 in a few days. I've bowhunted most of my life. The rest I guess I guess I just wasted. Lets just say I've hunted "traditionally"  most of my life. I get where the OP is going! I totally agree. Who can tell me you like where hunting has went in the last 20 years? If you do,  I'm not upset with you but you have no clue how it use to be. I have to say I totally HATE the saying IF IT"S LEGAL IT'S OKAY WITH ME. If they legalized RPG's tomorrow for hunting would you be okay with that? It would not surprise me if DNR's or hunting groups proposed that tomorrow as a means to get more hunters when hunter numbers are deleting.  I get tired of the big tent society as I'm getting wet standing on the edge of the tent. I guess I'm old school as in Aldo Leupold old. He was thinking way ahead of his time. I'll bet he had NO IDEA how far fishing and hunting would have advanced to.

There are definitely some negative aspects of progress, technology and life's faster pace today but as pointed out there are many positives.     
One of my boys (the adopted one) is a young Marine officer.  If he gets a couple of days to come home and wants to go shoot a deer or pig I'm sure not going to deny him some time in a blind with a crossbow to shoot one with at the feeder.  I will make sure we have good grub to grill at camp.   I'm going to check the cameras to make sure we are sitting in as high of a probability spot as possible.  I'll even slap him on the back, give him a high five and a big hug after the bolt blows through it's chest as it runs off.  The adrenaline rush will be just as thrilling as if I shot it with my longbow on a field edge in Missouri or a swamp edge in central New York.  Maybe better.  Then we will text family and friends with the LDPs. 
I'm pretty sure he will carry that memory with him a long time (because he still talks about the last time) and won't care about the trivial disagreements we discuss on here.  I will just look forward to the next time.

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Quote "wants to go shoot a deer or pig" End quote

Case in point GCook. It's about shooting now days not hunting.  In my lifetime I've taken several people just like you mentioned on fair chase hunts.  Most never KILLED. They talked about a Ruff Grouse walking by at three yards. A squirrel coming within feet of them. A Carolina wren landing on their bow limb.   Laughed about watching squirrels bury nuts for hours that they surely will never ever find and are planting for their grandkids,  Etc. They never regretted not KILLING! They just enjoyed the HUNT! But yes some killed but not as  killing was the end reward!

Congrats to your your Marine son! Don't know how to spell Hu Raugh!

LONG POST WARNING!

I first want to say I really do respect everyone's opinion. I enjoy these type of discussions!

Actually... Aldo Leopold knew exactly where hunting (and fishing) had come from and where it was going. He was a part of "the good ole' days" when Bison were nearly hunted into extinction, wolves were ALL shot on sight and the white-tailed deer wasn't just scarce, they were nearly non-existent from hunting pressure and habitat loss.

"In those days we had never heard of passing up the chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy. When our rifles were empty the old wolf was down and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable slide rocks." Thinking Like a Mountain, A Sand County Almanac.

"For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun." On a Monument to the Pigeon, A Sand County Almanac.

He developed his idea of the "Land Ethic" through a life of discovery and learning. Leopold was a city kid from Iowa who's Father was an Engineer and an Architect but would take him to the country on trips.  Professionally he was a Forester with the USFS charged with managing timber for wood products. It wasn't until the USFS assigned him to New Mexico that he had ever seen real wilderness. He arrived at his philosophy (that is largely misunderstood) through years of contemplation.

Aldo understood that progress and innovation were valuable, even in bow building...

"I have tried to build into this bow the main recent improvements in bow-design, but since some of them are not visible, they will bear mention.  The square cross section and waisted handle are of course visible innovations, but probably less important than the new location of the geographic centre.  In former days this was pub close under the arrow plate, but in this bow it lies as near the centre of the handle as is possible without overworking the lower limb."  wrote in a letter (on March 26, 1934) to Herbert Stoddard re: a bow AL was building for HS.

Aldo Leopold is always touted as the Father of Wildlife Management and creator of the Modern Land Ethic. He was EVENTUALLY a wise fella, no doubt.

"Simple and easy are not the same thing" (Dean Torges)... but just because it's HARD doesn't make it better. Cameras, GPS maps, all these things are just tools. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but no one would agree that a flat stick is a better tool than a shovel because it's HARDER to dig a hole with it. Need a big hole? No... can't use that backhoe, it's not HARD enough!

If we use the law as the common baseline, anything "beyond" that is really personal preference. I have pretty strong feelings about some things that are legal and don't agree with them but those are MY feelings and how I choose to live my life. Hunting and fishing will develop with society and society will influence hunting and fishing. I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release.

Personal preference, folks... personal preference.

With respect,
OkKeith

How many people hunt without it being an effort to shoot game?  Not me.  Doesn't always work out but that is my intention when I head to the field with a weapon.
Is it only "hunting" if I don't "shoot"?

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"I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release."

Never have understood that reasoning.  I fish to eat, not to torture the fish.

 OkKeith not being argumentative but reread his book. Paraphrasing he said fishing was the last sport that wasn't over taken with technology. Imagine him on a bass boat now adays with fish finders that can watch his lure coming through a school of fish or by a single fish displayed on his wide screen monitor showing 180 degrees around his boat ran by GPS he programed before he ever left the dock. He was a forward thinker no doubt but he had no idea  about Ozonics or where technology would take us.

I personally think we've lost what hunting and fishing is about. This forum group is probably the exception to the rule. Taking fish to make a meal, killing a deer to feed the family for several meals have been lost long ago in todays world and that's sad. I am a meat eater!  But the end result is enjoying the outdoors knowing full well that every outing doesn't always have to put meat or fish in the freezer to make it successful. I don't go out thinking I have to SHOOT  or catch anything to be successful. Just being in the great outdoors is success enough. Sad seems like most think now days that's not enough.  Again I agree with OP.

Well... GCook, folks have been pondering that and trying to figure that out for a long time.

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting
Spanish philosopher & politician (1883 - 1955)

My thought has always been that if you think you are hunting, you probably are.

OkKeith

A neighbors grandson that likes to go with me hunting rabbits with my beagle asked if there was an app to show where the rabbits are.  :biglaugh:  He is 7 years old and was dead serious.

I am 29.  I've been shooting trad for 7 years.  I work at a local family owned sporting goods store and have gotten many 17-20 year old kids into trad. There is hope yet.  They get it.  You just gotta show em the way and be a mentor.  If they don't want to hunt trad so be it.  But if they do then it's that much sweeter and you can chalk another one up for the good guys.

LC-

Read it many, many times. Good old Aldo said that humans are much like fish in that they are ... "ready, nay eager, to seize upon whatever new thing some wind of circumstance shakes down upon the river of time!". He knew what was up with folks. He also talks about how we, like the trout he pursued were fond of shiny things to the detriment of both.

Leopold also knew that a life wholly prudent is boring because after all... "No prudent man is a fisherman." I think he would just look at all the metal flake bass boats and shake his head knowing that its just people being people.

I don't watch much of the mainstream media hunting and fishing content. I have a few I enjoy that are mostly accessed online. Very little of it reflects how I like to hunt or fish. Having been "in the biz" so to speak it's all about the merchandising. Selling stuff is what the original print media (all the way back to the 1800s) and now video content is all about. The shill game is hard to play and transparent. Some tools revolutionize how we hunt (like GPS) and others are fleeting fads.

LC it looks like we have a love of Mr. Leopold's wisdom in common.

OkKeith

Nels Grumley and Fred Bear parted ways in large part because their views on technology and mass production of bows weren't compatible.


Let that sink in.

Quote from: McDave on March 04, 2019, 09:02:44 PM
"I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release."

Never have understood that reasoning.  I fish to eat, not to torture the fish.

I wonder how that would work with hunting, truly a challenge!!!  ;-)

Quote from: Tooner on March 05, 2019, 06:30:41 AM
Nels Grumley and Fred Bear parted ways in large part because their views on technology and mass production of bows weren't compatible.


Let that sink in.

And yet who's bows still sell and kill today? 
We evolve or become obsolete.

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I still stand by my belief that if it is legal, I am okay with it, in most instances. I may not always agree with it, though and may be willing to make efforts to get the law changed. Actually, my personal values are deeply embedded within the old style feeling of "traditional", but I don't try to insist that others always follow suit. We will always have differences in our opinions about certain aspects of hunting, which is good - it keeps us thinking. However, we should all be united in supporting regulations that preserve fair chase, maintain the number of animals, and protect their habitats.

I'll just pick on LC for a moment (in a friendly way). I have not agreed with every single thing he has said, but I strongly believe in much of it. It is good that he, and others, have stated their opinions in such a straightforward manner. It makes one think and re-analyze his own views. Most of the instances in which I have changed my mind regarding the outdoors, particularly hunting, has been through reading statements such as his. Thanks, LC and all others who share their views. By paying attention to all points of view, I feel better able to form a well rounded approach to my archery and bowhunting beliefs. As long as we try to persuade as opposed to "arguing somebody down", threads such as this will always be a very valuable component of Trad Gang. Again, LC, I hope you don't take offense at me referencing you, it just seems that you are solid in your beliefs and will not be thin skinned about any of this.

Quote from: OkKeith on March 04, 2019, 09:20:24 PM

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting
Spanish philosopher & politician (1883 - 1955)

My thought has always been that if you think you are hunting, you probably are.

OkKeith

There is much wisdom being offered on this thread.  Personally, like many of you here, I started bow hunting before the term "Traditional" was coined.  I do not carve a stick into a bow, cut cane for arrows, and fletch with fresh feathers.  Instead, I use the most Hi-tech wood longbow available for purchase.  Make up arrows from commercially bought shafts, balanced and weighed to almost perfection.  Neither, do I go into the woods without the intention of "harvesting" game.  I don't go for the game watching experience, although that happens frequently.  If I want that backpacking or hiking are my choice.  Also, I learned long ago that I am not smart enough to determine what is right for someone else.  My standards are my own, they can be witnessed by my actions and speech.  It anyone will listen they will hear what I have to say, if not my thoughts will remain my own intellectual property.

If you look at how much bowhunting has "progressed" in the last 30-40 years you can assume it will "advance" at the same rate the next 30-40 years.  It absolutely, positively will advance at the same rate until we do not recognize bowhunting unless a conscious effort is made to stop it or at least slow it down.

That is why I do not have a problem with people standing up to say enough is enough.  We have to make the conscious effort to just say no or my 15 year old son will be in trouble when he is my age. 

Sam, absolutely no problem or offense taken. I'll bet we would get along just fine sitting around a camp fire eating some bluegill and back strap after a hard day hunting.

Holm Made I hear you. I don't get any magazines or I mean I don't pay someone to send me advertisements anymore. But occasionally I'll read one or excerpts from them on the net. The high tech world of bowhunting is realizing they've maxed out what performance they can expect in the future. I believe the next thrust will be air powered guns that shoot arrows. There was a push to have it legalized in VA for handicapped but not sure if became legal or not. I'm not sure where the craziness will stop in this world and I'm not just talking about hunting and fishing.

The only TV hunting show I'll watch is Randy Newburg Fresh Tracks on YouTube or Amazon prime. That guy gets it! I use to really like Meat Eater but he seems to have jumped on the commercialization band wagon to much for my blood lately.

The other influence that is helping drive this movement is the state DNR's.  They are all nothing more than corporate government entities that view growth as the only way forward.  If they feel technology is the way to sell more licenses than that's what is going to be allowed. 

Too often, I easily fall for the vice of self-righteousness.  I try to keep it in check by not taking myself too seriously.

I love the idea that primitive activities, like hunting, should only be done by primitive methods, like traditional archery.  But I have to be realistic about things.  The CA Indians were known for wearing deer costumes to get close enough for a shot at our deer.  Seems like a winning strategy but also one that can get you killed nowadays.  Can't go back in time so we have to modify things a bit.

Most hunters out here have less than 10% odds of connecting with a buck.  Our DFW wants to increase the number of hunters afield to boost declining revenues but also sets the regs & seasons to severely limit what we can take.  It's a schizophrenic approach -- we need more hunters but we need them to shoot less deer.  So everybody looks for an edge -- new tech that hasn't been banned yet, private land access, etc.  Many deer are poached out of sheer frustration.  It's an odd situation out here.  I hope my kids take up hunting as adults but I'll understand if they don't.  It's tough.  Real tough.  Considering that I didn't even get my first deer until my early 30s, I don't know why I hunted at all as a kid.  A smarter kid would have given up after the first 2 or 3 unsuccessful seasons.

I hunted over corn scattered on a dirt road once -- out of state.  Got my first deer & it inspired me to take up hunting again when I got home.  As long as there are enough deer, I don't see how it's any different from trapping.  Call it trapping with a bow or rifle.  Out here, I'd consider it cheating.  But that's only because there aren't as many deer around.

Personally, I get upset about guys sitting up on distant ridges with their expensive glass, laser rangefinders and tripod-mounted 300 WinMags looking for 400+ yard shots.  To me, that's shooting, not hunting.  But it's legal.  A guy sitting over a bucket of corn within stick-bow range is using more hunting skill than those long-range shooters.  At least the bait guy is operating within the senses of the animal.  But alas, even feeding wildlife out of season is illegal here.  Crazy rules.

Kegan -- I relate to your experiences.  I've had similar ones.

I've met guys in CA who dabble in traditional archery hunting but NONE who hunt the general deer season with a stick bow.  They all have different reasons.  But when the general season opens, you'll find all of them with a rifle.  Most all will shoot the first legal buck they see.  When a good hunter (one that is better than me) only gets one shot opportunity ever few years, you really think hard about how much you want to hold to some vague ideals.

I love your comment about the rifle hunters.  There are ads run in hunting magazines challenging rifle hunters to join the "1000 yard club",  using the right combination of rifle, cartridge, and scope.  I myself have taken coyotes at over 600 yards.  That is not hunting.  It's pretty fair shooting, but not hunting.

The future of sport hunting cannot remain "fair chase" and continue to expand technologically.  It is obviously not just bow hunting that is in jeopardy.   

Looks like all my comments are falling on deaf ears. They're all pretty simple and factual. The orgional poster had nothing to say about legal or illegal yet that's being touted about.....or maybe some kind of justification?...I don't know.

And I've had tons of fun, entertainment, and and blood trails sitting over a feeder.... And I'm sure I'll do it again many times......

But I never gained any woodsmanship. I'm not going to kid myself or anyone else.

What bothers me is a generation that only knows hunting over a pile of corn.... And would not be able to hunt otherwise.   No, skills weren't lost, they were never learned.....and never passed down.

THIS is what I think most are afraid of....and for good reason.... To date it has never been threatened like it is being today..... And I'm not just talking about traditional bowhunting ....but all hunting.


Anyone ever hear of the Conch Island Sea Gulls?

I hear the words of everyone who is worried about loosing "traditional hunting values", which is what I think we are all talking about.

As time passes on, what will change is the DEFINITION of traditional hunting values; BUT as long as there is even just one of us out there taking the road less traveled or doing things simply these values are alive.

What if an archer is hunting with a 30 year old compound? Most of us use "traditional" bows MUCH newer than that. If that person continues to use that bow for another 30 years what might that new age of archers think of them? They would be "traditional" in their futuristic eyes I'm sure.

No one likes to see their heart felt values altered by society. Think though... are our commonly held belief systems truly "traditional"? It wasn't that long ago (one generation, maybe two) that long archery shots at game were not just common place but promoted by the very icons we cherish now. Fred Bear himself once thought that a ham shot was one of the most effective placements on deer size game animals. Does anyone make these shots on purpose today? His famous shot on the tiger in India was well over double what we would chastise any hunter on this forum for admitting to. In several interviews Mr. Bear admits that he wasn't even aiming to hit the tiger, he was just launching a shot in hopes of scaring it closer. Fred Bear was an amazing archer and is one of the pillars of our bow hunting foundation but lets not forget he was as equally a marketing master and business genius.

I don't think we need to lament the loss of our traditional hunting values so much as we need to quietly keep keeping on. I follow policy and rule making pretty close and I don't see any efforts to make us use equipment or methods we don't really want to. There is no "Make Everyone a Compound Shooter" legislation. Entwining our love of things "traditional" with the overall effort of promoting our hunting privilege could be counter-productive. Other issues will always be contentious. The baiting of game animals has been a LONG standing debate and always will be while there are two sides. One can't win without the other loosing.

My thought is that by this forum providing the opportunity to discuss these prickly issues it is playing a vital role.

OkKeith

Scanning many of the replies, here's my take . We are a novelty at best  and have been and will
be even more of one in the future. Basic bowhunting and the methods tanked a long, long time ago.
Enjoy it for yourselves and maybe some family members, friends etc, as for the most part were done as far as
changing the direction of the so called bowhunting.

Where I live I have never seen anything that reasonably limits or  restricts the onslaught of technology.
My take  as a starting point on a reasonable  drawing the line would be no release's for compounds and no electronics of any kind on bow and in the field,  plus some heavy restrictions on certain hunting methods but that is not ever going to happen. Its a lost cause regardless of the rose colored optimism of some.

In SA TX on government land I am usually the solo stick bow, more efficient means are the norm.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 05, 2019, 07:09:51 PM

And I've had tons of fun, entertainment, and and blood trails sitting over a feeder.... And I'm sure I'll do it again many times......

But I never gained any woodsmanship. I'm not going to kid myself or anyone else.

No offense (but probably is :dunno:), if you've sat a feeder and learned nothing than you weren't paying attention.
I've hunted over and around feeders many times and have learned quite a bit. Even more with the use of cameras.
-How deer interact with each other
-How pecking order influences behavior. (Losing antlers knocks you right down the list)
-How deer can be upwind and bust you using thermals and drafts.
-Older deer rarely travel the same path as youngsters. And why.
-What weather gets deer on their feet during daylight in each part of the season.

I could continue, but I think you get the point. Not only have I learned while sitting at bait, but have also used it to educate my kids on deer behavior. Do my kids always sit bait....no. But it sure helps keep them interested in hunting when they get to see game.

Again not meant to offend. But next time you hunt bait, pay attention to the details. It might make you a better hunter ;)

Since we've made it this far , lol...


I loathe youth seasons.

There was a time you earned your way to join the men in the woods. That alone was a major accomplishment ! To be finally a part , a member !

Then to draw blood as part of that fraternity was a feeling like no other .

Youth seasons have taken that away. You can justify youth seasons however you want, but we've robbed our young people of something big.

I have noticed that deer come in to a feeder "wired for sound" they know that is not natural.  It is sometimes harder to get a shot at a mature deer and not a fawn or 18 month old doe, around a feeder.  Usually, it is far better to hunt the trails 50 yards or better off the barrel throwing food.  Every now and then during the rut a crazed buck will follow a sweet thing right in to the feeder, but that is seldom.  Also, no amount of movement goes unnoticed near a feeder.  I always seem to need a slow stretch at the wrong time, after scanning the area closely, it never fails.  Snort, blow and gone. 

 :deadhorse:

Most out of state hunters are hunting a feeder placed by someone else.  They didn't decide on location using their own knowledge and skills.  Knowing prevailing wind directions for stand placement, knowing to place where morning and evening low sun isn't lighting you up or blinding you, multiple stands needed most times.  The trails mature bucks will use to scent for doe downwind of feeders during pre-rut and rut.  The bedding areas, funnels to the set up, the creek or ditch crossings.  It's not their fault, they don't have the time on destination hunts to do that.

The only issue I have with anything going on in hunting today are some of the poor shot angles that seem to have become the new norm.

Quote from: southernarcher on March 05, 2019, 09:38:33 PM
The only issue I have with anything going on in hunting today are some of the poor shot angles that seem to have become the new norm.

The new norm ? LOL !! Look through some older books with shot placement angles .

The Green New Deal says that all cows must die because they have gas.  If you have gas, you may exterminated. Does this guarantee that we can still hunt deer?  Gassy bunch of corn junkies that they are.  People as a whole are quite lazy and afraid of challenge, when a society has no spine things go down hill fast. 

Aaron maybe I should rephrase, It seemed we had gotten away from all that, so I guess it is the norm again?

I hear you Bvas.... Observations and all,  But  I didn't have to learn anything  To kill a deer over a feeder.  Most of which I could have gotten by watching national geographic...... But it's much more fun seeing it live I will attest.

Oh believe me, I pay attention. That's what makes a successful hunter.

If huntedover a feeder was all I ever did my whole life, there's a wealth of information I would have never learned.

I really didn't learn anything on my out West feeder hunts  that I could bring back East.  It would not be as easy going back the other way....from hunting a feeder all your life then suddenly going far away with no feeder.....the learning  curve is MUCH greater.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 05, 2019, 07:09:51 PM
Looks like all my comments are falling on deaf ears. They're all pretty simple and factual. The orgional poster had nothing to say about legal or illegal yet that's being touted about.....or maybe some kind of justification?...I don't know.

And I've had tons of fun, entertainment, and and blood trails sitting over a feeder.... And I'm sure I'll do it again many times......

But I never gained any woodsmanship. I'm not going to kid myself or anyone else.

What bothers me is a generation that only knows hunting over a pile of corn.... And would not be able to hunt otherwise.   No, skills weren't lost, they were never learned.....and never passed down.

THIS is what I think most are afraid of....and for good reason.... To date it has never been threatened like it is being today..... And I'm not just talking about traditional bowhunting ....but all hunting.


Anyone ever hear of the Conch Island Sea Gulls?

Your comments aren't falling on deaf ears, it's just that there are more "facts" to consider.

People seem to think that the only thing consider is the needs and wants and desires of the hunter.  It is not.  Those are things that are unique to every individual and are left up to the individual within the parameters of the law and the goals of the game departments.

Whether we like it or not, hunters are simply the tool that game departments use to effectively manage game populations for the benefit of the game itself, the habitat in which they live, and society in general.  The individual experience of the hunter is only relevant to the extent that it keeps them participating and therefore accomplishing the goals of the game departments.

In many areas of the country, even with all the technology and methods designed to make things easier, hunters simply can not, or will not kill enough deer to keep them within the carrying capacity of the habitat, keep them healthy, and keep negative interactions with humans to an acceptable level.  That is also a fact.

If the only way to hunt deer was with recurves and longbows, from the ground, without the use of unnecessary technology, the ramifications would be devastating to the herd itself, the habitat, and society as a whole.  That is also a fact.

Game departments are going to keep adding seasons, allowable methods, and allowable technology until their management goals are achieved.  That is also a fact.

The laws allows each hunter to make their personal experience what they want it to be, AND work toward the goals of proper game management.

Learning woodsmanship skills and killing animals based only on that is a laudable goal for sure.  Unfortunately it doesn't mean much when deer are dying of disease, starvation, and habitat destruction and personal property damage is rampant.

       

I wasn't being weapons specific.

And in no way did I ever say that the only way everyone should hunt is with longbows and recurves.  And no game department is holding a gun to my head making me use whatever. 

I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I'm very passionate about this.... If not Rob and I would have not spent the time and effort, not to mention the amount of money, in converting this site so that 18 years of history,  And the history brought forward from the past to remain a  accessible for years to come.

"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

:campfire:

March 6, 2019: The man who invented the handheld electronic calculator just died.

I remember when a huge majority of people said the calculator was a cheater's way of doing math. They said kids shouldn't own one until they could do longhand math. Schools would not allow them through the doors. People had no idea what was really happening...or about to happen...as computational technology made it to the hands of anyone who wanted it. I'm sure there are a few people here who still do all their math with ink and paper, but how many?

I'm pretty sure there are traditional mathematicians who look at calculators and computers the way I do digital bait stations, laser rangefinders, and drone scouting. It doesn't hurt anyone to master longhand math, just the same as learning the (often slower and harder) ways of more traditional hunting. It isn't necessary in order to be successful at math or at hunting.

It's still called mathematics. It's still called hunting. Neither has died. Both are going the way of our entire planet-full of humans....toward the future and toward technology. It's anyone's right to like it or not like it. You can do it longhand or not. You might be concerned, while the guy next to you is very thrilled about it all. It's nothing more than one's perspective and preference. Meanwhile, we all have one less day to clear our minds and enjoy what we do have: the right to hunt as traditionally as we prefer. Or not.

Tooner; very interesting perspective on how the Game Departments manage things, very true.  Also, great ideas about choice.  That is what we try to teach out children, to make good choices based on what is good and true.  The deliberate way is best, for some.  That is fine.  For others that is not efficient or effective.  As mentioned earlier, I am not smart enough to know what is right for everyone else, just what I consider right.   :archer2: :coffee: :campfire:

Hey, pavan, if the Green New Deal goes through, gas is going to get us in trouble. Beans will need to eliminated from a whole lot of hunting camps. I fear that before long, politics will become an even greater factor in discussions like this. Let's all hope I am wrong! However, I fear that I am not wrong.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 06, 2019, 09:22:57 AM


"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

:campfire:

I don't know if that was directed at my post but if it was it's being a little disingenuous.

"Learning woodsmanship skills and killing animals based only on that is a laudable goal for sure.  Unfortunately it doesn't mean much when deer are dying of disease, starvation, and habitat destruction and personal property damage is rampant."



I didn't say that woodsmanship didn't matter, what I said was unfortunately, when it comes to the game departments reaching their management goals and keeping the herd and the habitat healthy, how the deer are taken doesn't matter much.   A dead deer on a spot and stalk hunt with a longbow is no different than a dead deer taken with a compound, from a treestand, over bait.

In other words, there are simply not enough of "US" to get the job done, and if the job doesn't get done, eventually everyone, including the resource, the habitat, and even non-hunters will suffer.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 06, 2019, 09:22:57 AMI'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I agree.  I was simply stating that in the big picture, we need all types of hunters to get the job done in terms of management goals.   Some choose to do it our way,  some choose to do it their way, and at the end of the day, we need them all.

Good discussion.

Gotcha Tooner  :thumbsup:

Great dialogue.   :campfire:

Quote from: southernarcher on March 06, 2019, 05:58:27 AM
Aaron maybe I should rephrase, It seemed we had gotten away from all that, so I guess it is the norm again?

Well, sir, I really wasn't aware that there's been a move back to "interesting" shot placement . So I may be out of the loop some.

Aaron I'm guessing I'm outta the loop too, I don't know anything about "interesting" shot placement. Either way, I'm not a fan of frontal shots etc.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 06, 2019, 09:22:57 AM
I wasn't being weapons specific.

I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I'm very passionate about this.... If not Rob and I would have not spent the time and effort, not to mention the amount of money, in converting this site so that 18 years of history,  And the history brought forward from the past to remain a  accessible for years to come.

"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

:campfire:

Terry Green -- I'm 40.  I imagine that puts me among the younger folks on this board.  I picked up a stick bow for the first time at about age 16 or 17.  There was no internet back then.  No YouTube.  No message boards.  I sold that bow in my early 20s after getting frustrated with things like target panic, though I wouldn't have known to call it that back then.  There were only 2 archery shops in the Sacramento area where I grew up and only 1 that did anything traditional.  I wanted to learn woodsmanship but my friends didn't know much and my step-dad, who introduced me to hunting, did most all of his hunting from the seat of his pickup.  There was no opportunity to connect with people outside my social group who knew much at all about how to see game trails, what seasonal changes meant to animals, etc.  So although there may be some risk of a lost tradition, I see these changes happening over many decades.  In the 80s and 90s, I think hunting had a worse future outlook than it does today.  Now, guys like me can take it up again with the wealth of knowledge and experience that guys like you have provided.  For that, I'm extremely grateful and hopeful.  Yes, I'm a bit of a crackpot on some things -- sorry.  But I'm here.  And there are a lot of folks younger than me who are here too.  We want to learn all we can & pass it on to the next generation (my oldest just passed his hunters' safety class a couple weeks ago & will be eager for his first turkey this year).  We need your help to do that and appreciate the work a lot of you have put in to make forums like these available to people like me.  I hope that can offer you a little bit of hope.

Quote from: southernarcher on March 06, 2019, 12:29:16 PM
Aaron I'm guessing I'm outta the loop too, I don't know anything about "interesting" shot placement. Either way, I'm not a fan of frontal shots etc.

By "interesting" I was just saying a shot that we'd most likely agree wasn't optimum .

This has been a really good discussion.

Things are changing, no doubt about it. I grew up in a very rural environment and have always been at home in the woods. I was fortunate to have people who taught me things about nature and hunting. I've always liked the old ways of doing things, for a lot of different reasons.

I'm not very judgemental anymore about how people "should " do things. I like a longbow and wood arrows, but not everybody does.

I realized a few years back that many people are interested in this traditional/primative lifestyle, but many of them don't know where to start. We folks that have been around a while need to be mentors to these folks. I wrote an article lately for our Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia newsletter about how I scout and set up for southern whitetails. Feed trees and crossings and how to get closer shots. And not because I think I'm some great hunter, but because I've realized that lots of folks need some help.

Get involved with your local club. Volunteer. Help out a new hunter. Pass it on.

Quote from: Tooner on March 06, 2019, 10:36:05 AM

I didn't say that woodsmanship didn't matter, what I said was unfortunately, when it comes to the game departments reaching their management goals and keeping the herd and the habitat healthy, how the deer are taken doesn't matter much.   A dead deer on a spot and stalk hunt with a longbow is no different than a dead deer taken with a compound, from a treestand, over bait.

In other words, there are simply not enough of "US" to get the job done, and if the job doesn't get done, eventually everyone, including the resource, the habitat, and even non-hunters will suffer.

Quote from: Terry Green on March 06, 2019, 09:22:57 AMI'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I agree.  I was simply stating that in the big picture, we need all types of hunters to get the job done in terms of management goals.   Some choose to do it our way,  some choose to do it their way, and at the end of the day, we need them all.

In the big picture, game management results in game being treated more like a crop or a farmed animal than wild game.  This is good for hunters who get more game, and good for game managers who get more money for their programs, but we have to accept the bad with the good.  The bad includes overpopulation when the game management programs are too successful, and encouragement of efficient methods of harvesting animals at the expense of passing along traditional wilderness skills.  Not that anyone in game management would actively discourage anyone from learning traditional wilderness skills, but they really aren't a part of the program they're trying to promote.

Yosemite....thanks for the reply, means a lot. And I hope you continue to carry the torch.  :thumbsup:

I didn't just take the anti baiting message out of the OP.  There were also comments about a ladder stand, people who don't feel they can get broadheads sharp enough and replaceable blade knives.
I use a replaceable blade knife.  I also use carpet blades in a utility knife to help skin pigs.  I have knives I keep sharp and use them as well but when skinning 2, 3 or 4 pigs for clients or even with group of friends it's much quicker to change blades and keep going.  Especially after an evening hunt or in warmer weather when meat needs to be in the cooler asap.  Now, I am cheap so I save and resharpen those blades later at the house, but for me using them is a choice of efficiency and intellect.  As far as broadheads I applaud those who know their limitations.  I would lay odds as many deer are wounded and lost due to dull heads as bad shots.  I've seen it with compound and trad shooters alike.  For some it may be laziness but some honestly struggle to master the technique.  Not everyone can do everything.   
Which leads me to single string, bare bow shooting.   I waited til after retirement to take it back up because I knew working 60 hours a week, on call 24/7/365 for 30 years and family commitments to boot I didn't have the time to practice every day.  Many times I was too physically exhausted to even shoot a bow with let off more than once or twice a week.
Not everyone has the time or desire to fight through it and get competent to hunt with a "trad" bow.  As a matter of fact 2 slob trad hunters on my first deer lease wounded more deer in two seasons than I have in my bowhunting career.  They quickly taught me the kind of trad shooter I didn't want be.
We shouldn't assume something is bad because it is not the way we always did it.  But yeah, baiting is easier in many ways.  Then again I've killed a few deer on picked corn field edges and alfalfa field edges in New York too.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Not to derail but if the primary outcome for the state is to reduce deer numbers regardless of means, why not make it legal to shoot them with spotlights and after dark?

I also probably am in the minority, but don't you think lowering deer numbers was the goal, it would be more successful if people were better hunters?

I also enjoy Aldo Leopold's writings but he speaks out against people killing for sport. Where does that leave all the hunters killing and donating the meat? Not that I'm against it but deer numbers are far different from where they were. On the flip side, I think hunters, especially new hunters eventually figure out gadgets don't necessarily work however they are stuck in a mindset to keep buying them. Eventually, because they don't kill a 200 class buck every year, they give up. 

I know in some areas the DNR claims deer numbers are too high but a lot of hunters don't see it so they let deer walk. Where I am I passed up around 15 gear last year and saw 40 or 50. But it wasn't in my to distant past that we were lucky to see one or two deer a year. Hunters take conservation in their own hands

Quote from: Cyclic-Rivers on March 06, 2019, 06:22:14 PM
Not to derail but if the primary outcome for the state is to reduce deer numbers regardless of means, why not make it legal to shoot them with spotlights and after dark?

I also probably am in the minority, but don't you think lowering deer numbers was the goal, it would be more successful if people were better hunters?

I also enjoy Aldo Leopold's writings but he speaks out against people killing for sport. Where does that leave all the hunters killing and donating the meat? Not that I'm against it but deer numbers are far different from where they were. On the flip side, I think hunters, especially new hunters eventually figure out gadgets don't necessarily work however they are stuck in a mindset to keep buying them. Eventually, because they don't kill a 200 class buck every year, they give up. 

I know in some areas the DNR claims deer numbers are too high but a lot of hunters don't see it so they let deer walk. Where I am I passed up around 15 gear last year and saw 40 or 50. But it wasn't in my to distant past that we were lucky to see one or two deer a year. Hunters take conservation in their own hands

Herd control sure isn't achieved by traditional archery hunters.  Rifle hunting has the greatest impact.
Night hunting is effective but the danger to cattle and other wildlife is too great. 
I don't care for hunters who don't eat their deer but at least someone is eating it.  We have one of those guys on my lease.
I donate meat as well but my family eats 3 to 4 deer and a couple of pigs a year.   Texas deer aren't as large as their northern cousins.  I usually fill all five of my tags and a couple of MLD tags so I'm a sport hunter I guess.   I can live with that.
I'd love to kill a 150.  I look for him every season.  Haven't seen him yet.  But if I do I hope he's under 15 yards and I have my Primaltech in my hands.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

For what its worth....all the deer I killed in TX got donated through a program for the needy.  No need for me to hassle with dragging meat around in terminal and putting up with airport nazis.

My freezer was usually already full well before I'd go to TX in January.....so someone else needed it more than me.

Quote from: McDave on March 06, 2019, 01:18:27 PM


In the big picture, game management results in game being treated more like a crop or a farmed animal than wild game.  This is good for hunters who get more game, and good for game managers who get more money for their programs, but we have to accept the bad with the good.  The bad includes overpopulation when the game management programs are too successful, and encouragement of efficient methods of harvesting animals at the expense of passing along traditional wilderness skills.  Not that anyone in game management would actively discourage anyone from learning traditional wilderness skills, but they really aren't a part of the program they're trying to promote.

I would agree with everything except for the underlined statement.   

If game management is successful, there wouldn't be overpopulation.   That's the problem.  In most areas hunters don't (won't) kill enough deer, especially does.  That's why seasons, and methods keep expanding.

Whether we want to admit it or not, if game managers relied on traditional bow hunters to reach their management goals, the herd and the habitat in most areas would be in a world of hurt.   

I should clarify, I don't have an issue with deer being donated for the hungry, just wanted to point out that forward thinkers had great ideas but things have significantly changed since their writing therefore some of their ideas may be out of place or changed had they been here today.

To bring Aldo back into the picture, he didn't think sport hunting was good per say but also points out over browsing due to unhealthy population balance is also not good.

Also I don't want to derail too much but have one more question i would like some other thoughts on.  If rifle hunters are most effective at reducing herd numbers, why muck up the archery seasons with other equipment and special seasons?   

It's been my observation that the cross bow guys I know set down rifles to be able to hunt the peak rut and quit when freezers are full. I am sure this doesn't account for everyone but in Wisconsin bow and crossbow especially have increased kills and rifle kills have plateaued and in many areas declined.

I keep picking on Aldo but I just finished reading a Sand county almanac again so it's fresh. He warns about what happens when government agencies try to increase revenue and manage money over resources.

The DNR needs to find a balance. They have raped and pillaged our resources and continue to dig themselves deeper. The more they try to fix an issue the worse it gets. They are wearing Chinese finger cuffs.  Here they are taking away hunting land to make way for more ski runs.

Why, there is more financial benefit to take away from one special interest and give to another.

I think the focus on deer kill should go back to hunting and not tag sales. Overpopulation here is rhetoric.

Just read all this again...

I do believe hunters should learn everything possible about the game they hunt and be the best woodsman they can be. My problem is when people post about how others choose to hunt and make snide remarks like ( I don't do bla bla because I'm so awesome I only do it this way ) what good is that doing.

It's not doing anyone any favors to hear your not a real hunter if you hunt over bait or hunt from a tree or use a gps.. Why not start a thread about scouting or stalking or natural ground blinds. Or how to find and hunt a funnel or scrape hunting. Use your knowledge to help others instead of trying to make yourself look like the Trad superhero. Like I said it's awesome you don't hunt in X-fashion we don't need to hear about it everyday..

For sure we don't have the hardcore woodsman of the old days but I think we have enough to help the new guys along but helping ain't easy when they are  being told they are not real hunters.. I believe anyone in traditional archery new or old is willing to learn if helped in the right manner.

,,Sam,,

My game warden friend tells me about some of the stuff going on with public land, everything from Deer Cane, to deer licks, to  food piles, to artificial corralling to steer deer towards them and away from others, to using deer repellants around other hunters tree stands, you name it they are out there trying it.  One of his favorites was a deer shot from a bridge with a black powder and then getting and arrow stuck in the hole, while he watched them do it and on posted land to boot.  When things are over manipulated, it kind of cheapens the value of the trophy.  Providing adequate and helpful nutrition for an area herd is one thing, growing one particular buck to trophy proportions in a controlled setting is another.  I did see one encouraging thing last year, a young guy with a fake shoulder injury emptied his quiver shooting at a buck that was a good hundred plus yards out in a field with  a cross bow, when he was out looking for his stubby bolt thingies, an older man that can no longer shoot his recurves and is now using a cross bow, went out in that field and ripped the ouchy shoulder faker a new one.  Not a lot he could do about it, he was out of bolts.

First of all Sam, great post.
Second pavan, let's be clear, there is a big difference between poaching and hunting.
Public land is a whole other mess.  I keep seeing people on forums saying we need to recruit new hunters.  Seems to me like we have too many for the land available now.
I hunted public land for the first three years in Texas.  It was crazy.  Scary at times.  I took a young buck each year but only because I knew how to read the woods. 
Even private land is becoming a menace. The lands around our place in Missouri are selling off in smaller parcels and 3 to 7 or 8 hunters will be on a place 80 to 160 acres in during rifle season.  11 days of frustration is what it has  ecome.
Leases have gotten crazy expensive and with slob hunters like you described they will only get worse.
In the end I think hunting for the average person is a dying thing.  Probably not in my lifetime but at some point only the financially more blessed will be able to afford it.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

40 acres a parcel when farmers sell off their wooded river slopes around here.  There are enough rich people to sell every bit that comes up for sale, 40 acres at a time.  Some of our private lands that we have had access to is worse than the public land. 

So do we want new hunters or not?

Based on some of the posts, I'm beginning to wonder.

:bigsmyl:   From reading these posts again, it seems like we are on the same general thread.  Again, " I am not wise enough to determine what is right for everyone else, but I do know what values I hold close."  Perhaps, having the opportunity to hunt in different areas of the country, or even other countries and use the methods of several different locales would greatly benefit those individuals who have hunted the same county their entire life.  There are methods that I have read about that I find unusual and that personally would probably never take part in, but having hunted the Northeast, Southeast, Germany, and now Texas it has flavored my life and outlook on many things.  I draw your attention to my first sentence once again.  Blessings, Ad majoem Dei gloriam.
   :coffee:   :thumbsup: :campfire:   

Rules are NOT made to be broken.  Sometimes new rules are required to deal with specific changes.  One new rule that i advocate is 'leave no trace hunting' on all public land, if you came with it, you leave with it.  That would solve a lot of issues in Iowa.  It always amazes me how just two or three that don't follow the rules or are total land hogs can ruin everything for the more respectful hunters on any public area.

As backpackers those are the rules my brothers and I live by, usually come out with a bag of someone else's stuff.   :campfire:

Not all area's have the same management problems, I'm in a situation where across the street from me there are 5 to 6 sections of public forest preserve criss crossed with a couple roads but still all preserve, NO HUNTING ALLOWED, they manage by baiting and mass extermination when  overpopulated, which is every couple years depending. I have to travel a good 2 hrs to get to subpar public hunting grounds. Had to throw that out there.

We catch poachers pretty much every year on our private land they are stalking or still hunting...

Poacher is a poacher , law breaker is a law breaker right ????

Has nothing to do with anything.....

,,,Sam,,,

Did I miss something?

Did someone actually say rules were made to be broken?

Interesting Stuff Here . . . Usually Is!

When Ya Talk Ya Teach . . . When Ya Listen Ya Learn . . .

I'll keep my mouth shut, my ears open and keep carrying the torch.

:campfire:

Gotta say, I'm with Sam on this one. The hunting industry has and will continue to change.

Companies and politics will follow the money, this I fear will not change and take things out of hand.

Our job is to teach and include, rather than point fingers and put a wedge in whomever is left. No need for hard feelings until seasons or rights are taken away.

Hunting is a personal venture. Some guys choose to be lazy, others try to become better and more proficient. This will never change. Choose what suits you and enjoy

Quote from: Terry Green on March 07, 2019, 04:02:46 PM
Did I miss something?

Did someone actually say rules were made to be broken?

Crickets , Crickets.......

,,Sam,,

quote author=SAM E. STEPHENS
For sure we don't have the hardcore woodsman of the old days

,,Sam,, quote


Yes we do....I talk to many frequently.  Three in
the last week.  I will be glad to name them if you wish :campfire:

I agree totally Terry , I should have said I don't think we have the number of hardcore woodsman now days. I have had the pleasure of hunting with many and I know we have some great guys here on Tradgang also....

,,Sam,,

Yes....and thankfully we do!!!

I  agree with the  OP for the most part. Been shooting a bow for over 60 years, worked in my dad's archery shop where on occasion a guy the name of Fred Bear would call and ask for my dad who was on Bears advisory staff for a few years, had Art Laha over from Wisconsin putting on tracking deer tactics.

It has been a fun ride for me. I passed on what little I know to my son and grand kids. Took up flint knapping and self bow making. Killed a deer with stone points but not with my self bow.  My 11,13 and 16 year grandkids can out track most adults and in most cases out work most adults. I can hold my head high knowing I did my best to teach them traditional archery, hunting and as important woodsmanship.

Jon Stewart, sounds like you've mentored your grandkids well.  I travel by Norton Shores frequently heading from Holland to the Walhalla area where I wander the Manistee National Forest.  Hopefully I'll meet you and/or your grandkids someday in the woods while we're TradGanging down some nice Michigan whitetails.  Keep up the great work Grandpa!

Great stuff Jon,.. that's what we're trying to promote AND preserve here. :notworthy:

Trad Bowhunting is an individual thing that can be taught, passed on, or lost by those not interested enough.

Took my first deer in 1971 with a stickbow and I haven't stopped shooting sticks since, and I'm pushing 71 years old.

The hills seem steeper and longer now and the mornings seem colder than I remember them being.

But ain't no room in my soul for high tech stuff.

That's up to those who choose to use it and doesn't concern me at all.

Give me a compass and I'll be back at camp come sunset.

Look how young I looked in 1971, LOL.

(http://i.imgur.com/IJRdVam.jpg) (https://imgur.com/IJRdVam)

I ain't sure if Roy is braggin or complaining.  Did ya leave the arro in yer deer till it hit the table Roy?

This has been an interesting thread I read daily.  I just really like shooting these trad bows.  I had a wheel bow when I was 12 I think - switched shooting fish about 14 and never looked back and I'm knocking on the big 50 next week. 
Tim B

Ya I know, that picture is in poor taste by today's standard.

I was young and dumb then.

No Roy... you weren't  young and dumb...... That picture would still be find  And dandy if it wasn't for the PC police!!!

I love the quote about the compass!!!

I remember Gene and Barry posing for photos with their deer and still having an arrow nocked!!!

Great Stuff!!!

Reminds me of my dads pics Roy!  And that's a compliment.  My dad had a slide protector and would show us kids hunting roll after hunting roll of pics like that.  I loved looking at all those pics
Tim B

Quote from: Roy from Pa on March 08, 2019, 04:27:15 PM
Trad Bowhunting is an individual thing that can be taught, passed on, or lost by those not interested enough.

I agree. I also believe a lot has to with an individuals journey. Where ya been, where ya start, where ya are, and where you're going(or want to go).

There are lots of folks like myself that didn't start with trad. Got my first "real" bow in the late 80s and it had wheels. That was normal to me. That's what all of my friends and family shot. My dad had an old Bear super mag 48 hangin on the wall that I thought was just decor. I didn't know people hunted with that kind of bow.

At some point and time I've tried more gadgets, gizmos, bells, and whistles than I care to admit. Some worked some didn't. Some were fun some just frustrating.

Then at some point in my life, quantity of kills became less important than, for lack of a better term, quality of the hunt. Part of me wanted more of a challenge and part also wanted deer season to last longer. The first step in regression was the bow. I dabbled with a recurve doing late season spot and stalks in the snow. After successfully shooting a shed buck in his bed.....I was hooked. A year or two later I ditched my wheels completely. That was five years ago, and have no intention of going back now.

I still use gadgets, feeders, cameras to help keep my seasons successful. My wife says I enjoy the trail cameras as much as the hunt. Sometimes I think she's right. I love it when I get pics of deer and other critters I never knew existed. I've been getting pics of bobcats for four years and have to see one.

Slowly though, I find myself wanting or needing the gadgets less and less. For now though, they still add to my enjoyment of the great outdoors. So I will continue use them as long as they are legal.  But I will admit, my most enjoyable hunts are still those snow covered spot and stalks with nothing more than a trad bow and a quiver of arrows.  :thumbsup: Well...maybe some binos :biglaugh:

1arrow1kill: My camp is by Whiskey Creek. You are most welcome anytime. My son and family built a house on our property and live there. I would be proud to introduce you to the most polite kids you will ever meet.

Roy that photo is just fine. One heck of a nice deer.

Thanks for the kind words, Terry and 1arrow.

I agree a lot with the original post. I feel the same way! I think some of it may have been taken wrongly by others. I took it as feeling sorry for the future for what they are missing out on. Not bashing anyone for their choices! We as a whole are losing our roots day by day to technology and the old timers that hold the knowledge are dwindling fast. I was fortunate to grow up in the woods and learned it all the hard way. I've hunted public land my whole life. I wouldn't want it any other way either. I know that I can pick up and go hunt anywhere in the country and be successful at killing game without a corn pile or all the gadgets they promote on the outhouse channel. I can Identify all the trees and natural food sources available and the times they will be used. The reasoning for the post was to open our eyes to the things that we are leaving to the next generation. When it's gone it's gone! I try to teach any of the younger group that I take to the woods with me everything I can every trip in the woods. I think this is the best thing that we can do for the sport in my opinion.

Just have to realize it's often more difficult now for those from cities or who don't own land to bow hunt.   Used to be nobody bowhunting on the public land I hunted (in OK) in the early sixties, so would only share the camping areas with a few if any others. Farmers would let you on their land to hunt for free then too. However, the input to the state was minimal too ith so few of us shooting.  It took a few more years for  our state government to allow us to wear camo clothing, and not the mandatory red outer garments the same as the rifle/shotgun fellows had to.

But we still have lots of folks hunting somehow and somewhere.   Not too worried about it as we might have to drive further and spend some money to hunt is all.  I have a small summer home in a tiny village without a stop light (Westport, NY) and sometimes drink coffee at the round table where court is held each morning by the town folks. There will be a patch of ground  to hunt somewhere around there.   

Quote from: Babbling Bob on March 10, 2019, 05:35:17 PM
Just have to realize it's often more difficult now for those from cities or who don't own land to bow hunt.   Used to be nobody bowhunting on the public land I hunted (in OK) in the early sixties, so would only share the camping areas with a few if any others. Farmers would let you on their land to hunt for free then too. However, the input to the state was minimal too ith so few of us shooting.  It took a few more years for  our state government to allow us to wear camo clothing, and not the mandatory red outer garments the same as the rifle/shotgun fellows had to.

But we still have lots of folks hunting somehow and somewhere.   Not too worried about it as we might have to drive further and spend some money to hunt is all.  I have a small summer home in a tiny village without a stop light (Westport, NY) and sometimes drink coffee at the round table where court is held each morning by the town folks. There will be a patch of ground  to hunt somewhere around there.

I know where Westport is.  My brother lives not too far from there.  Beautiful part of the state.

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The direction of hunting will be forever evolving. There are things I can't even decide on myself....

Man, I hate baiting for deer, but I would for bear, and have for pigs. So what's the difference? I have opinions but really baiting is baiting I suppose...

I love the youth hunt for my children but not for shutting deer movement down early...not that I can prove it does. I have personally seen no issues but can see where there may be in some areas...but when competing with video games it's basically a way to get them going and early success. Unfortunately it seems a necessary step to get their attention. I couldn't hunt until i was 12, and my son's killed like 6 deer before he turned 11...and now he's learning the "how".

I'm not a xbow or compound fan, yet there were years I killed a lot of deer with a wheelie bow when I tried it...

I just got my first game camera for Christmas and love looking at pics of others, but feel it's shut down more hunting permission than anything because now folks are aware of what's really out there on the back 40...even though they'll probably never see the big dudes during daylight...

I think when hunting within regulations, hunting becomes a very personal thing and people will find their way. Probably not my way, but that's ok.  I won't videotape my hunts or my son's because I think it's not about anyone but the one doing the hunting and shooting. I will shoot or pass animals because it's my personal decision, based on many factors, and find my son already is doing the same.

I'm not going to tell people what to do or not, I just know I love hunting with a stick bow and all the work I put into making the equipment, and doing it, and hope to pass on what I've learned. The words written by Leopold and other authors quoted in this thread have inspired me, even back in college when I first read them.  Hunting isn't meant to be a competition, I don't need to "get it done", I have a ton of success not killing, and also when I do kill. I decide what's success. And there's not an advertisement around that would make me think differently, but that's from experience.  It's easy to get caught in the hype.

The threat we face is from non-hunters and their opinions, and those are formed by the direction of hunting. As things get easier and more high tech, I would think opinions degrade. Period.

Overspined:  "The direction of hunting will be forever evolving."

Exactly right and true. Hunting is a human endeavor. As different groups of humans evolve, so do their societies, cultures and practices. Ours just happens to be evolving faster than many and so are the reasons and ways we hunt as a nation. Much of evolution is centered around efficiency and improving it....same or better results with less effort. It's the reason for CNC machines, carbon limb designs, baiting, rangefinding binoculars, and better golf clubs.

If someone is concerned for the direction of hunting, they're probably concerned about evolution overall....which I am....and which I can do little or nothing to stop from happening. I can't decide anyone's personal path in their chosen sport....just my own. I decided a long time ago not to judge others for how they do things. I just gravitate toward people who seem to share the same values that I do. It is....after all...a very short life.

As a side note.  If you think hunting hasn't changed just go ask for permission to rabbit hunt.  Everyone that does hunt deer think you'll run all their deer off.  Farms that we've hunted forever are off limits now. This could be due in part to the cameras as stated above.  Thank God I live in an area with lots of public land. Kevin you do start to notice these little things more as you get more sand in the bottom of the hourglass!

Quote from: bucknut on March 11, 2019, 06:09:11 PM
As a side note.  If you think hunting hasn't changed just go ask for permission to rabbit hunt.  Everyone that does hunt deer think you'll run all their deer off.  Farms that we've hunted forever are off limits now. This could be due in part to the cameras as stated above.  Thank God I live in an area with lots of public land. Kevin you do start to notice these little things more as you get more sand in the bottom of the hourglass!

Speaking of rabbit hunting....

In the early 1950's when Sacramento State College was opened, there were regular Saturday morning rabbit hunts on the campus.  Flash forward 60-70 years and imagine the shock and outrage that would occur if a rabbit were run by somebody's dog, let alone hunted, on campus!

How Times have changed!!  And not for the better.   As a very young kid I would carry a shotgun right down the road with hounds or squirrel hunting.  How would that go over now?

Yup, I used to shoot the big guns off the back porch...

Now the swat team would come ah calling for me...

Heck...in high school in the 80s we had a shot guns and an 06 in our vehicles....some were even in rear window racks in plain  view.....and knives in our pockets.

And yes....bows as well

When i was in high school in the 60s, I had to stick to bows that were 58".  Anything longer wouldn't fit in my high school locker.

Some of the comments here sure did bring a smile to my face.  I recall in '68, '69, '70 & '71 juggling .22 LR and 12 gauge shells in my front pocket trying hard to stay at school until my last class was complete (made it - some days).  We'd run to the parking lot and fly down the road to a local farm where we'd chase after the plentiful ring-neck pheasants north of Holland.  Around 2000 my sons were told in HS that they could not even bring their bows to school, so they found a guy close to school who would let them drop off their bows and guns before school and get them right after.  These days I often get hassled by all manner of folks when they see me sporting my camo Spyderco Para Military EDC knife.  Oh well, they'll probably get over it . . .

I just remembered another high school episode.  The longer lockers were on the second floor. Along the biology lab. The biology teacher we call Bear, when Bear took his between classes break, he would go to my locker, load his pipe with my Balkan Sobranie pipe tobacco, grab an outdoors magazine and go down to the teachers lounge.  One day he came by and sat down by me in the study hall.  He asked, "How long have you had that Browning automatic?  I see you have an improved cylinder choke on it, but what i don't get is how do you think you are going to be able to take a pheasant down with 7 and half shot?"  We quite often would boogy out of school early during pheasant season with one of the teachers that had a station wagon or the two that had International Wagonmasters, so we kept everything in our lockers. One of the advantages of having a last period study hall.  It was completely understood that the hunting seniors wanted the junior floor lockers for keeping their guns and bows in.  Nothing was ever locked and nothing was ever stolen.  When my son went to Northern Iowa, he lived in off campus designated housing that was almost a mile off campus and he was not allowed to even have bows and arrows inside apartment or even in his car.  A rule which made no sense to him, he did not follow it, because in high school, he was allowed to take his longbow to school with him during the archery week of PE.

I'm sorry but I had to delete a post, we're not gonna start calling people out....  Especially when they are making heartfelt statements.  Your comments were totally uncalled for and shows that you are probably on the wrong site.

ET all...Next time you travel check out and see if you can get on Tradgang on the business center's computer.......

I have no worries and here is why. I have now lived long enough to see that the pendulum always swings back the other direction in due time. Those that pursue this sport is made up of a very diverse group. Some are in the toddler stage and are exploring every room in the house while some are now in the senior adult center. This has nothing to do with age per say, but rather is a mindset. There will be some who prefer the gadgets and easier route to the end and then there will always be a minority that choose to do it the hard way. Neither is right or wrong, but rather a manifestation of something from within. I'm sure the Thompson brothers would have considered Fred Bear of taking a shortcut with that newfangled glass stuff that he backed his bows with.  The journey is different for us all. I choose to enjoy the journey and I will spend camp time with those that choose a different route. Who knows if someday you will meet up with them and they are now more "traditional" than you.   

Quote from: elkhunter45 on March 12, 2019, 09:32:24 AM
I have no worries and here is why. I have now lived long enough to see that the pendulum always swings back the other direction in due time. Those that pursue this sport is made up of a very diverse group. Some are in the toddler stage and are exploring every room in the house while some are now in the senior adult center. This has nothing to do with age per say, but rather is a mindset. There will be some who prefer the gadgets and easier route to the end and then there will always be a minority that choose to do it the hard way. Neither is right or wrong, but rather a manifestation of something from within. I'm sure the Thompson brothers would have considered Fred Bear of taking a shortcut with that newfangled glass stuff that he backed his bows with.  The journey is different for us all. I choose to enjoy the journey and I will spend camp time with those that choose a different route. Who knows if someday you will meet up with them and they are now more "traditional" than you.   

Very good post. I won't tell someone how to hunt cause I don't want someone tell ing me how to hunt.

Generally speaking our differences make us stronger.
Diversity has many benefits.  I guess that's why is alluded to in scripture as well.  One body, many parts. 

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!Arrow1Kill's comment was amusing, because I remember some of these same events regarding hunting and school. It was very common to take guns and hunting equipment to school. In the 7th grade, we studied WWII, and some brought military items to a show and tell day. I took a folding stock M1 carbine for my exhibit. I don't think that would work today. And now, he caught grief for carrying his knife.

I enjoy discussing and debating where trad archery is going when talking with members here, because, after all, we are all family and this is important to our lifestyle. However, when it comes to taking grief from people outside the hunting world, I am not always so understanding. Not too long ago, I was wearing a T-shirt with a picture of Howard Hill and his elephant - you know the picture. A little old lady accosted me. First, she didn't know what the picture was about, and when I told her, she stated her objections to hunting. We actually had a civil conversation. Yet, on another occasion, a loud mouth guy got up in my face and started into a forceful diatribe in which he condemned all hunting and questioned my canine ancestry. I had two response for him. I suggested he get a running start and kiss my a$$. Then warned him to get out of my face before I cleaned his clock, and, yes, I intended to do exactly that. I was not such a good ambassador for our lifestyle that day, but he did pipe down. Anti-hunters are doing the most to try to affect the direction of hunting, in my opinion. These comments are a little deviation from the original direction of the discussion here, but they are very relevant. Our discussions about technology are philosophical in nature, but the anti-hunting sentiment has become very political, which is a greater threat to the direction of hunting overall, not just to trad bowhunting.

Quote from: Sam McMichael on March 12, 2019, 10:39:41 AM
!Arrow1Kill's comment was amusing, because I remember some of these same events regarding hunting and school. It was very common to take guns and hunting equipment to school. In the 7th grade, we studied WWII, and some brought military items to a show and tell day. I took a folding stock M1 carbine for my exhibit. I don't think that would work today. And now, he caught grief for carrying his knife.

I enjoy discussing and debating where trad archery is going when talking with members here, because, after all, we are all family and this is important to our lifestyle. However, when it comes to taking grief from people outside the hunting world, I am not always so understanding. Not too long ago, I was wearing a T-shirt with a picture of Howard Hill and his elephant - you know the picture. A little old lady accosted me. First, she didn't know what the picture was about, and when I told her, she stated her objections to hunting. We actually had a civil conversation. Yet, on another occasion, a loud mouth guy got up in my face and started into a forceful diatribe in which he condemned all hunting and questioned my canine ancestry. I had two response for him. I suggested he get a running start and kiss my a$$. Then warned him to get out of my face before I cleaned his clock, and, yes, I intended to do exactly that. I was not such a good ambassador for our lifestyle that day, but he did pipe down. Anti-hunters are doing the most to try to affect the direction of hunting, in my opinion. These comments are a little deviation from the original direction of the discussion here, but they are very relevant. Our discussions about technology are philosophical in nature, but the anti-hunting sentiment has become very political, which is a greater threat to the direction of hunting overall, not just to trad bowhunting.

:thumbsup: :biglaugh: :thumbsup:
Made my day!!!!    LOL     :archer2:

I've been reading this thread since the beginning and been thinking about it a lot. Started to respond several times and then changed my mind. So many things to say about the lack of woodsmen ship and causes. The biggest killer of woodsmen ship is profit. Not that all profit is bad but there is an imbalance today. Just spend 30 minutes watching the outdoor channel and you'll see what I mean. One of the most popular shows is about a guy that drives around in high fenced areas looking for game and then shoots them in the head with what ever new gun/bow he is promoting. Probably wearing flip flops as well.That's not hunting but that's what young or ignorant people see. Lack of accessibility to property is another reason. Here in Texas you can't step on some ones land with out paying big bucks. Even with all the parks we have today you just can't wonder around. There are rules you know. The days of Jeremiah Johnson are almost gone. Replaced by the likes of "Pig Man".

Why learn how to read a compass when you can pay guide to drop you off and pick you up. Why learn to skin/gut an animal when a guide will do it for you. Why learn to track when a guide will do that for you. Its easier to pay and more the norm for a lot of people than DIY type hunts. When I tell people about my DIY hunts they respond by saying I'm crazy. They don't have time for that, they want to go in and kill and get out, no skill, mess, no fuss. I think people like that are really missing out. But for some that's what they want, I really don't care.

Not sure if the OP mentioned this but I know a few have. I have hunted in a lot places in a lot of ways. To me, the truest sense of hunting is spot and stalk. To glass for game and then try to get close and bag it is the ultimate experience and the truest from of Hunting. But I have also hunted by feeders and to be honest when I see game and decide to shoot my hearts is pounding as fast as it did on a spot and stalk.
I see no difference hunting by a feeder or hunting under an oak tree dropping acorns. Its a food source. Deer are browsers that don't wait for feeders to go off. I think a lot of people have unrealistic ideas of deer herds running to a feeder when it goes off. There might be places like that but I've never hunted them.
I don't think sitting in a box all warm and fuzzy eating tacos a hundred yards away from a feeder is hunting but if I couldn't pull a bow back that's probably what I would do. Enjoy the way you hunt, appreciate the outdoors, recognize Gods work and give him thanks.
   

This has been an interesting thread to follow. I, too, have thought of replying before now but wasn't sure how to explain my thoughts. I started hunting rabbits and pheasants in my teens, bow hunting with compounds in my early 20's, bird hunting (quail and pheasant) with pointing dogs in my mid 20's, a brief stint with a recurve in my early 30's, and now fly fishing and deer hunting with a longbow in my early 50's. In the beginning of each of these stages of my hunting life, success was measured with the number of animals killed or fish landed. As I matured in my knowledge and skills, the way I measured success changed too. A successful bird hunt didn't have to include a limit of birds - it might have been a great retrieve by my dog or the way he handled a running pheasant. The stint with the recurve was done with the bow of a deceased uncle in honor of him - a doe that is still the most meaningful hunt I've ever had. The fly rod and longbow have come along to bring challenges to the lifestyle I love that have seemed to become lacking in something. What that is I don't really know. I think, as mentioned by others, that the "industry" of hunting has done everything to make hunting easier. I never hunted because I wanted it to be easier, I wanted a challenge. I want to put my skills to the test of my quarry's instincts and senses. I want to get close to a deer - really close and if I get a shot - great. If not, then I was still successful. I feel, as I've aged, it's more about the journey and the experience than it is about the destination. I guess I don't really care how someone else goes about their hunting as long as they obey the law. I do feel that by depending too much on technology they are depriving themselves much of the enjoyment the journey has to offer.

My mom who was a state champion archer while being disabled since  age 11 years (had to use crutches) taught archery in public grade schools around the city back in the 60's.  You know that ain't happening in today's world and what a shame.

Quote from: Jon Stewart on March 12, 2019, 09:46:01 PM
My mom who was a state champion archer while being disabled since  age 11 years (had to use crutches) taught archery in public grade schools around the city back in the 60's.  You know that ain't happening in today's world and what a shame.

NASP is alive and well in public schools??
My daughter is on her schools team.

A Colorado otc elk tag is over $600 now right?  Add travel and camp expenses plus not getting paid while I'm off work and the cost goes way up.  But say I could do a DIY hunt for $1200.  Average of archery elk success is 11% I believe.  I've seen numbers that suggest DIY is closer to 7% and outfitted closer to 20%.  So if I hunt enough years dropping $1200 plus time off I might get an elk.  Or I can drop $6000 on a quality outfitter in a private area and kill one most years I go.  Personally I'm not geared for spending money on failure.  I've done the DIY thing.  We had fun but every year one of four of us would get an elk.  And that was rifle hunting 2+ decades ago.
I don't blame anyone who wants to maximize their chance of success with the limited money and time most of us have to hunt on. 

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It's interesting reading about how everyone used to store their weapons while in school. I used to thing my bow and rifle depending on the season and just cover them with a blanket on the back seat.

In woodshop, I built a recurve my junior year and a long ow my senior year. Both times I had one teacher who gave me a pretty hard time about building a weapon in school, and even talked to the principal about it. Of course I didn't have any arrows  or anything so it was no more a weapon than every other piece of lumber in the shop at the time. That was pretty much what the principal told the teacher and I didn't have more issues.

I see that the archery in the schools program is really starting to take off, which is fantastic. Sure, most of them are learning in compounds, but at least they are getting exposed to the sport!

Quote from: Modad2010 on March 12, 2019, 08:58:38 PM
This has been an interesting thread to follow. I, too, have thought of replying before now but wasn't sure how to explain my thoughts. I started hunting rabbits and pheasants in my teens, bow hunting with compounds in my early 20's, bird hunting (quail and pheasant) with pointing dogs in my mid 20's, a brief stint with a recurve in my early 30's, and now fly fishing and deer hunting with a longbow in my early 50's. In the beginning of each of these stages of my hunting life, success was measured with the number of animals killed or fish landed. As I matured in my knowledge and skills, the way I measured success changed too. A successful bird hunt didn't have to include a limit of birds - it might have been a great retrieve by my dog or the way he handled a running pheasant. The stint with the recurve was done with the bow of a deceased uncle in honor of him - a doe that is still the most meaningful hunt I've ever had. The fly rod and longbow have come along to bring challenges to the lifestyle I love that have seemed to become lacking in something. What that is I don't really know. I think, as mentioned by others, that the "industry" of hunting has done everything to make hunting easier. I never hunted because I wanted it to be easier, I wanted a challenge. I want to put my skills to the test of my quarry's instincts and senses. I want to get close to a deer - really close and if I get a shot - great. If not, then I was still successful. I feel, as I've aged, it's more about the journey and the experience than it is about the destination. I guess I don't really care how someone else goes about their hunting as long as they obey the law. I do feel that by depending too much on technology they are depriving themselves much of the enjoyment the journey has to offer.

"..it's more about the journey and the experience than it is about the destination"

Maniacs weren't shooting up schools back then, but we had a floor of shooters in the dorms and just kept them taken down (bows and guns) in our rooms. In high school ran trap lines before school and hunt after so weapons and critters in the car.

Now police dogs walk the parking lots and flag cars with empty shells, oh  and a knife is automatic suspension so don't forget to get the hunting knife out of your pocket..

Quote from: Tony Van Dort on March 12, 2019, 11:20:55 PM
"..it's more about the journey and the experience than it is about the destination"  "And what a long strange trip it's been!!!